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Mon Feb 25, 2013, 07:14 PM

Only 14, Bangladeshi girl charged with adultery was lashed to death

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/29/bangladesh.lashing.death/index.html

Hena Akhter's last words to her mother proclaimed her innocence. But it was too late to save the 14-year-old girl.Her fellow villagers in Bangladesh's Shariatpur district had already passed harsh judgment on her. Guilty, they said, of having an affair with a married man. The imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment: 101 lashes delivered swiftly, deliberately in public.

Hena dropped after 70.

Bloodied and bruised, she was taken to hospital, where she died a week later.


But hey...why should atheists be angry? That just carries water for the fundies, right?

99 replies, 6463 views

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Reply Only 14, Bangladeshi girl charged with adultery was lashed to death (Original post)
skepticscott Feb 2013 OP
noiretextatique Feb 2013 #1
skepticscott Feb 2013 #2
2ndAmForComputers Feb 2013 #4
ProgressiveProfessor Feb 2013 #5
Warren Stupidity Feb 2013 #6
ProgressiveProfessor Feb 2013 #11
Warren Stupidity Feb 2013 #13
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #19
Warren Stupidity Feb 2013 #24
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #40
skepticscott Feb 2013 #9
ProgressiveProfessor Feb 2013 #10
skepticscott Feb 2013 #12
cleanhippie Feb 2013 #15
rabid_byter Feb 2013 #78
noiretextatique Feb 2013 #90
EvilAL Feb 2013 #3
get the red out Feb 2013 #27
EvilAL Feb 2013 #74
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #7
skepticscott Feb 2013 #8
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #14
skepticscott Feb 2013 #17
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #20
Meshuga Feb 2013 #28
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #61
LeftishBrit Mar 2013 #98
cleanhippie Feb 2013 #16
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #18
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #23
trotsky Feb 2013 #25
cleanhippie Feb 2013 #29
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #36
cleanhippie Feb 2013 #37
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #41
Thats my opinion Feb 2013 #75
trotsky Feb 2013 #76
Thats my opinion Feb 2013 #81
trotsky Feb 2013 #82
skepticscott Feb 2013 #93
okasha Feb 2013 #77
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #21
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #22
trotsky Feb 2013 #26
grantcart Feb 2013 #30
trotsky Feb 2013 #31
grantcart Feb 2013 #51
trotsky Feb 2013 #53
grantcart Feb 2013 #57
trotsky Feb 2013 #58
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #32
trotsky Feb 2013 #33
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #42
trotsky Feb 2013 #46
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #48
trotsky Feb 2013 #50
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #62
trotsky Feb 2013 #66
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #34
okasha Feb 2013 #35
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #38
cleanhippie Feb 2013 #39
skepticscott Feb 2013 #43
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #44
skepticscott Feb 2013 #45
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #47
skepticscott Feb 2013 #49
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #55
skepticscott Feb 2013 #59
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #63
skepticscott Feb 2013 #65
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #89
trotsky Feb 2013 #52
trotsky Feb 2013 #54
trotsky Feb 2013 #56
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #64
trotsky Feb 2013 #67
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #68
trotsky Feb 2013 #69
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #70
trotsky Feb 2013 #71
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #72
trotsky Feb 2013 #73
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #85
trotsky Feb 2013 #86
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #87
trotsky Feb 2013 #88
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #60
demosincebirth Feb 2013 #79
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #80
demosincebirth Feb 2013 #83
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #84
demosincebirth Feb 2013 #91
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #92
Act_of_Reparation Mar 2013 #94
struggle4progress Mar 2013 #95
Act_of_Reparation Mar 2013 #96
struggle4progress Mar 2013 #97
LeftishBrit Mar 2013 #99

Response to skepticscott (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 07:16 PM

1. sick...an abused child murdered because she was abused

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 07:18 PM

2. And because

the deeply and sincerely religious folk around her were determined to do gawd's will.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 07:49 PM

4. Yes. Because of EXACTLY THAT.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:39 PM

5. Which religion and which god?

Yes it matters, even Westboro Baptist Church does not flog children.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:43 PM

6. Yeah we just executed them until 2005, and only then by a 5-4 decision did we stop.

So yes indeed we have advanced far beyond the bangladeshis.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:59 PM

11. Massive differences to be sure, but feel free to keep up the strawman

Look at it from a formal risk management approach...

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:22 PM

13. Deuteronomy 22:22.

Punishment for adultery, death.

Ah I know, ancient history, old testament, not quite straw, but too distant.

1641, Mary Latham executed for adultery, not far from where I write this. Closer? Still want to hold to it is just those other religions?

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:06 PM

19. I guess your reading of these texts would make you a good rightwing fundamentalist,

though there certainly are other ways to read

IIRC rabbinical Judaism has not allowed a death penalty for adultery for about two thousand years now

The early Christian communities rather frowned upon adultery, but they did not prescribe death as the sanctions:

The Council of Elvira, ca. 306
8. Women who without acceptable cause leave their husbands and join another man may not receive communion even when death approaches ...
47. If a baptized married man commits adultery repeatedly, he is to be asked as he nears death whether or not he will reform should he recover. If he so promises, he may receive communion. If he recovers and commits adultery again, he may not commune again, even as death approaches ...


The case of Mary Latham in Puritan New England, half a millennium ago, perhaps illustrateswhy the Puritans were so unpopular in early modern Europe and why they were encouraged to go bugger off to colonize a distant and largely unknown continent across the seas



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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:15 AM

24. The point is that our two versions of the abrahamic religions are not all that different from

the islamic version. And your claim that they are is flawed.

Adultery is but one aspect. Until the mid 18th century grotesque cruelty was the norm for punishment for all crimes, religious crimes were numerous and punished routinely by appallingly cruel executions. We've gotten better in the west, at least as far as grotesque cruelty and religious crimes are concerned, but we all came from more or less the same place, and not that long ago.

England retained capital punishment for sodomy until 1861, Massachusetts retained its colonial era death penalty for sodomy until 1822. South Carolina, 1878.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 03:12 PM

40. I never made any claim about "the abrahamic religions" nor about any supposed "islamic version"

of "the abrahamic religions"

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:54 PM

9. Uh, no "church" flogs children

People, including fundamentalist Christians, administer punishment that harms and can kill children in the name of gawd.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:58 PM

10. Regularly?

Its a basic risk management calculation...

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:01 PM

12. No, they don't kill children "regularly"

Like the child in this case, they can only be killed once. Often enough for you? Was her "risk" well managed?

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #9)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 09:46 PM

78. the article said it was a Mosque, not a church, and Xings have beaten children to death.. >Link

 

not a common occurrence, but here it is,

check out the smiles..

http://warmlittlepond.wordpress.com/2011/08/16/girl-beaten-to-death-by-evangelical-christian-parents/

the doctors said they have only seen injuries like that in car wrecks and airplane crashes..

http://www.secularnewsdaily.com/2010/02/christian-parents-biblically-beat-child-to-death-for-mispronouncing-word/

http://www.examiner.com/article/another-child-s-death-linked-to-pearls-and-to-train-up-a-child

i thought my father was going to beat me to death a couple times when i was a small child, my first memory is him complaining about how bad his hand hurt after beating me to the ground. i got so pissed off at him having bully's tease about welts in gym showers.. when i was 13 he was coming at me with a razor strop, he was a barber, i picked up a piece of pipe leaning against the garage and told him if he hit me again i'd kill him in his sleep.. he backed up and didn't speak to me hardly for 15 years till he was nearly dead from cancer, he said he was sorry, and ashamed. a couple months later he died in my arms.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 03:58 PM

90. yes: religious insanity

how utterly sickening and sad.

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Response to skepticscott (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 07:40 PM

3. Sickening, just fucking sickening.

May she rest in peace.

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Response to EvilAL (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 09:18 AM

27. I hope her murderers have no peace

NONE AT ALL.

I DESPISE barbaric people like this and their hateful religion. People who think like this are lower than maggots.

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Response to get the red out (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 03:58 PM

74. They deserve absolutely no peace, none!

How can a book and tradition skew your view of people, especially women, to the point that it makes it ok to do this type of thing to someone. It blows my fucking mind.

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Response to skepticscott (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:50 PM

7. There are certainly a variety of issues here. One issue is extrajudicial punishment, which

Last edited Tue Feb 26, 2013, 01:42 PM - Edit history (1)

the High Court has declared illegal in Bangladesh:

Bangladesh High Court declares 'fatwa' punishment illegal
July 09, 2010
The High Court on Thursday declared illegal and unlawful any extrajudicial punishment in the name of 'fatwa' ... he bench directed the government to take legal action in accordance with the Penal Code and other relevant laws against the perpetrators of such offence, making its rule issued earlier absolute. The court in its judgement observed that any extrajudicial punishment in the name of 'fatwa (Islamic cleric's edict) is conflicting with the Constitution and other laws in force in Bangladesh. A person who will declare such punishment and those who will be involved in the process would be considered as offender and abettor respectively and both should be brought to justice, the court order said.



Another issue is the apparent sexist double-standard according to which women and men are differently judged:

Bangladeshi family tells of grief over girl whipped to death
Fariha Karim
Friday 4 February 2011 15.13 EST
... In the early evening Hena Akhter had gone out to use the bathroom when she was met by her cousin and neighbour, Mahbub, who gagged her with a cloth before beating her. The assault left her on the brink of consciousness, unable to walk or talk. But instead of punishing Hena's attacker, local elders called a shalish – a village meeting – where she was accused of having an illicit relationship with a married man ...



A third issue, probably involved here, is small town politics:

Only 14, Bangladeshi girl charged with adultery was lashed to death
By Farid Ahmed and Moni Basu, CNN
March 29, 2011 7:09 p.m. EDT
... Amazingly, an initial autopsy report cited no injuries and deemed her death a suicide ...



Bangladesh whipping case: three doctors investigated for claiming teenage girl had no signs of injury
Second autopsy on body of Hena Akhter, 14, found multiple wounds 'of a homicidal nature'
Fariha Karim in Dhaka
Thursday 10 February 2011 12.04 EST
... Hena's body was exhumed on Tuesday night on orders from the High Court, and a second autopsy concluded that she had died from internal bleeding and septicaemia caused by wounds "of a homicidal nature" on her scalp, abdomen, back, chest, arms and legs. At the High Court, Justice AHM Shamsuddin Chowdhury ordered the ministry of health to investigate the three doctors who carried out the first postmortem on suspicion of medical negligence, raising the possibility that they had been pressed into suppressing signs of injuries ...



Bangladesh doctors to be prosecuted over lashing report
28 March 2011 Last updated at 09:01 ET
By Anbarasan Ethirajan BBC News, Dhaka
... "The court has asked the authorities to file a criminal case against the four doctors for concealing the evidence in the first post-mortem report," Deputy Attorney General ABM Altaf Hossain told the BBC. "The court has ordered health ministry officials to take departmental action against the four doctors." One of the doctors who carried out the first post-mortem examination report told the BBC that they did nothing wrong while preparing the report but will accept the court's order ...


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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:53 PM

8. Apologetics by Google..well done

Yes, we know...it's complex.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:41 PM

14. Two years after, we can probably do more here than simply repost the story

Last edited Tue Feb 26, 2013, 01:44 PM - Edit history (2)

If you like, of course, I can lay out my prejudices clearly before proceeding further: (1) I oppose the death penalty; (1) I oppose corporal punishments (such as beatings and lashing); (3) I oppose extrajudicial "justice"; and (4) I oppose traditions and social views that treat men and women according to a double-standard

The story here seems to be that a fourteen year-old in a tiny Bangladeshi village was beaten to death for "adultery" after being raped by a cousin, who himself seems to have escaped any significant punishment. Although this extrajudicial punishment was illegal under Bangladeshi law, her parents themselves apparently knowingly delivered her into the hands of the people who beat her to death. Several local doctors then performed an "autopsy," finding that she had no serious injuries and concluding that she had committed suicide. Her parents were shocked by the violent events and complained, obtaining a second autopsy (that determined death had resulted from homocidal injuries). A court judgment, ordering prosecution of the doctors responsible for the original coverup, followed. Beyond that, my quick search has not yielded further information

It would be informative to learn whether anyone was prosecuted, but I have not been able to determine that

It is not quite clear to me why you choose to portray my attempt to provide such additional details as "apologetics" or why you want to put words in my mouth. I naturally suspect that you are trying to relieve your ennui by provoking some silly reaction, but I consider that whole avenue a crashing bore: why not just stop playing these silly accusatory games? You know perfectly well you will find at DU absolutely no one who believes it is OK to beat another person, let alone beating a woman to death as an "adultress" when she was in fact a rape victim and when the "sentence" was an extrajudicial judgment contrary to law





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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:05 PM

17. You will find

plenty of people here who find religiously motivated behavior such as this entirely rational and who will argue that no one should be criticized for "deeply held beliefs", which the perpetrators of this murder clearly have and were acting in accordance with. As well as people who think "angry" atheists are only hurting their cause.

And I guess you must have talked to everyone at DU, and verified their truthfulness (by Google search, no doubt), or at least read their minds, to know that "absolutely no one" believes a certain thing. Yet more apologetics and deflection...not surprising that your "prejudices" and subsequent comments omit any mention whatsoever of the religious motivation underlying this girl's murder.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 12:03 AM

20. Fatal whipping exposes Bangladesh’s fatwa crimes

Last edited Tue Feb 26, 2013, 02:25 PM - Edit history (1)

http://dawn.com/2011/05/30/fatal-whipping-exposes-bangladeshs-fatwa-crimes
AFP | 30th May, 2011
... Hena is buried in a simple grave next to her family’s small mud and plank house in a village that has no electricity or running water and is a 30-minute walk through rice paddies from the nearest paved road ...

Khan and the seven-member village council who issued the fatwa have been arrested and are awaiting trial and Hena’s family have been given 24-hour police protection after receiving death threats ...

Access to justice is so limited outside of the capital Dhaka that up to 80 per cent of disputes are resolved by village councils – which are known as shalish – said Falzul Huq of the Madaripur Legal Aid Association ...

In Hena’s case, the village council that issued the fatwa included the wife of her rapist and his sister-in-law but no one with even basic training in Islamic law, leading human rights lawyer Sara Hossain told AFP ...


So perhaps we may add another issue: lack of access to the regular justice system in tiny rural villages

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 09:44 AM

28. And if we look at an even bigger picture...

A good friend of mine is highly involved in Bangladesh's politics and his biggest complaint was the fact that the US (at least during Bush's administration) favored the fundamentalist non-democratic Muslim party (over the Secular Muslim Party) since the fundies were easier to deal with in getting American companies in Bangladesh to extract natural gas. In short, a non-democratic fundamentalist regime that imposes insanity onto the population took power and held on to power at the time since the situation was favorable to us financially.

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Response to Meshuga (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 12:57 AM

61. It looks as if the Bushbots had lost control by 2008:

see my #60

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 08:22 AM

98. Very few people on DU would think that religiously-motivated violence is acceptable

There are a few people on DU who may object to all criticisms of other countries, especially perhaps Muslim countries, because they equate it with 'beating the drums for war' and wishing to bomb these countries. I emphatically disagree with this view, which in any case is rare on DU; but it's not the same as saying that violence and murder are justified if due to religious beliefs.

Obviously, I don't know the views of every single person who has ever joined DU; but I can't think of any who have justified this sort of action.

There is a difference between advocating tolerance for different religious beliefs, and advocating tolerance for every possible action that might be motivated by religious beliefs. Just as with any other sort of belief.

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:45 PM

16. Yes, complex issues. Complex RELIGIOUS issues.

You avoid the root of the problem; all caused by religious belief.


You can continue to elevate your own self above the heathens in Bangladesh if that makes you feel better, but it in no way avoids the central problem here: religion.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #16)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:05 PM

18. Perhaps you meant to reply to skepticscott, who actually used the word "complex,"

rather than to me, who did not use the word?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 01:20 AM

23. Here is my current assessment of the incident:

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:50 AM

25. Your tireless efforts to absolve religious beliefs of any possible role in this (and other)

tragic incident(s) are duly noted.

Admitting there is a problem is the toughest step. I wish you luck in one day perhaps making that step.

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 11:26 AM

29. While sticking one's head in the sand to make one feel better about the reality of the situation

may work for while, it is not an acknowledgment of the problem nor does it offer solutions. Instead, it diverts attention away from the real problem and onto the insecurities of the willfully ignorant.

Good luck with that. I hope it turns out as you expect.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #29)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 02:39 PM

36. I've provided fifteen or twenty links to news stories relevant to the case, enabling anyone

who is interested to obtain more information

So far you have provided nothing but an irrelevant link to a commercial website selling one of the Pearls' idiotic self-published books

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 02:54 PM

37. I posted that link in response to a specific question.

Be as obtuse as you feel you need to be.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #37)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 03:18 PM

41. I've provided fifteen or twenty links to news stories relevant to the case, together with

a synthesis of the information, in response to which you merely sling insults: "sticking one's head in the sand" and "obtuse" and so on

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #41)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:38 PM

75. You should know by now

that he is so committed to trashing everything that has a religious perspective that he is totally intolerant of any other position. There is a name for that.

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Response to Thats my opinion (Reply #75)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:56 PM

76. Personal attacks don't help anything, Charles.

Do you believe these murderers were at least partially motivated by their religion?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #76)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 11:17 AM

81. Of course, there is a very dark side to religion,

and here is one example. When any religious fundamentalism gets involved in a severe right wing political movement, there is grief all around. That sort of religion must be held to account!

Personal attacks? Everything I have written in over two years has been responded to with a personal attack by the same small group. if I said the 'sun comes up in the East', I would be attacked--often by name. Take your remark and suggest it to a few others.

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Response to Thats my opinion (Reply #81)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 11:35 AM

82. I dunno, I've given you multiple opportunities...

to explain why exactly you think "none of us" would want to live in a society without religious ethics, even one that didn't forcibly remove them but just didn't have them. Each time you've run away rather than address that question.

After you've slammed non-believers like that and have even doubled-down on the sentiment, why are you surprised many of them still don't trust you or even like you?

Maybe you can just admit you were wrong, that there would be nothing fundamentally wrong with a society lacking a religious ethical foundation. That would go a long way toward improving your reputation.

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Response to Thats my opinion (Reply #81)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 10:34 PM

93. EVERYTHING you've written?

Oh please...you have a persecution complex in spades, Charles. Your posts have been criticized frequently, with facts and logical arguments in rebuttal, because they are frequently wrong, bigoted or hypocritical. As has been pointed out to you countless times, criticism of your posts does not equate to a "personal attack". Yes, we all know you'd like nothing but responses along the lines of "What a wonderful, profound post, Charles..i couldn't agree more" or even "I have to disagree just a tiny bit, but i deeply respect the wonderfullness of your different opinion", but that's not going to happen...not with the things you post, anyway, and not outside your gaggle of ivory tower academics.

And since you're arrogant enough to sign your posts with your name, replies to your posts often refer to you in the same way. Calling you by name is not the same as calling you names, Charles..do you need to be reminded of that as well?

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Response to Thats my opinion (Reply #75)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:58 PM

77. The only religious aspect

to this terrible tragedy is the fatwa. Even there, we don't know whether the so-called imam is a fanatic or a moral coward afraid of his violent neighbors.

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Response to skepticscott (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 12:08 AM

21. Gender Justice: Is Bangladesh Ignoring ‘Fatwa’ Violence Against Women?

Last edited Tue Feb 26, 2013, 02:27 PM - Edit history (1)

http://world.time.com/2011/07/11/gender-justice-is-bangladesh-ignoring-fatwa-violence-against-women/
By Emily Rauhala
July 11, 2011
... One year ago, Bangladesh’s Supreme Court ordered a crackdown on extra-judicial violence against women. Although the country’s law technically protects women’s rights, local councils regularly flout the rules ... Ain-o-Salish Kendra, a local NGO, has documented hundreds of cases over the last ten years. They, and other groups, say the government isn’t doing enough to protect women from violence ... To mark the anniversary of the Supreme Court order, some of the country’s most respected NGOs are asking the government to speak out against the use of ‘fatwas’ to justify violence and humiliation. They’re calling for a massive public education campaign in schools, colleges and madrasas, as well as more support — legal, financial and emotional — for those affected ...

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Response to skepticscott (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 12:57 AM

22. What we know so far: these events occurred two years ago, in a tiny Bangladeshi village without

Last edited Tue Feb 26, 2013, 01:40 PM - Edit history (1)

electricity or running water, a mile or more from the nearest paved road. As is the case in much of the world, traditional attitudes offer women only low status and few rights

The Bangladeshi High Court has ruled that it is illegal for village counsels to enforce punishments such as beatings. But access to Bangladesh's justice system can be difficult for persons who do not live in the main cities; the current backlog in the courts amounts to two million cases or more; and so villagers still usually resort to village counsels to resolve disputes

Hena Akhter's father had complained on several occasions to local police about her cousin's harassment of her, and he had even obtained a monetary judgment against the cousin, but it was never paid. Subsequently, her cousin raped her; his wife blamed the girl for the rape; and the wife and her sister both served on the village counsel that met at the cousin's house and ordered the lashing punishment, together with a monetary judgment against her father, about the same size as the judgment he had originally obtained against the cousin after the earlier complaint. Although the rapist was also sentenced to be lashed, he was released after only several blows

This exhibits characteristics of a small town revenge lynching: persons with definite interests in the case help engineer the outcome, including the effective cancellation of the earlier judgment with a comparable reverse judgment and the convenient death of the inconvenient victimized girl. The small town political clout of the rapist is demonstrated by the first "autopsy" findings that the girl committed suicide -- an all-too-familiar characteristic of small town lynchings, even in the US. It is, of course, useful for the lynch mob to appeal to religious issues in justifying their own actions, but the material motives seem obvious enough

Only 14, Bangladeshi girl charged with adultery was lashed to death
By Farid Ahmed and Moni Basu, CNN
March 29, 2011 7:09 p.m. EDT
... Khan eyed Hena and began harassing her on her way to school and back, said Hena's father. He complained to the elders who run the village about his nephew, three times Hena's age. The elders admonished Mahbub Khan and ordered him to pay $1,000 in fines to Hena's family. But Mahbub was Darbesh's older brother's son and Darbesh was asked to let the matter fade ...

When being a woman is a crime
Irfan Husain | 12th February, 2011
... Hena was to be flogged 101 times by a relative of Shipli’s, while Mehbub was to receive 200 blows from his father. To add insult to grave injury, Hena’s father was ordered to pay a fine of 50,000 takas ... Mehbub received 10 strokes, while Hena collapsed after being lashed 80 times ...



Bangladesh: Fatwa Killing Sparks High Court Inquiry, Directives
(Feb 17, 2011)
... Last year, the High Court issued a ruling declaring all forms of extrajudicial punishments illegal ...



United Nations Development Programme: Bangladesh
... One of the key constraints facing the judiciary is the large case backlog of around 1.8 million cases. The backlog is placing considerable pressure on the court system and is hampering access to justice ...

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:56 AM

26. What does the Pakistani High Court have to do with it?

This happened in Bangladesh. Your apologetics are getting very strained.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #26)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 11:42 AM

30. What does this article have to do with Religion? Nothing


Every group has law breakers who use their metaphysics for immoral purposes.


I even recall athiest communists used ideology to put an ice pick into the skull of man who had taken asylum in Mexico and wasn't a threat to anyone. Should we then extrapolate from that a universal conclusion about all Marxist-Lenninists?

This was a crime.

No religion supports the actions according to the facts presented here anymore than any real religion supports Westboro Baptist Church.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 12:05 PM

31. Which ideology were those assassins following?

Does atheism have a book of rules that says certain people should be killed or punished?

Christianity does. So does Islam. (Nice use of the NTS fallacy at the end, BTW!)

(BTW, as I have pointed out other times, my username has nothing to do with the historical Trotsky. But a noble effort nonetheless.)

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Response to trotsky (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:50 PM

51. Your lack of irony in regards to your name notwithstanding your


aggressive hostility to people who follow religious faith is quite evident.

The acts in the OP were criminal acts. They are not supported by any religion. Holding a collective group responsible for the criminal acts of an individual is simply a position of prejudice.

Although I am not a Christian I have read the New Testament in both English and Greek and the statement Christianity has a "book of rules ... that says certain people should be killed or punished" is as ignorant a statement on Christianity as I have ever read.

But this comes from a person who takes a certain delight in making condescending remarks when people make an obvious connection to a very famous political name on a political discussion board when they have some apparently obscure reference that they keep as an inside joke.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #51)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:00 PM

53. NTS is all you've got?

So be it.

True or false: the Christian bible contains passages that proscribe specific punishments for certain offenses.

Answer that, and we'll proceed. If you think you can refrain from insulting me, that is. Your position must be awfully weak to have to lash out at me personally so dramatically.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #53)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:30 PM

57. "Christian Bible"

This really is the terminology of a Junior High Schooler trying to sound relevant.

I don't insult you, I simply reveal your bigotry and you feel it is an insult.

You are an uninformed bigot.

You objectify and dislike people who follow a religious faith and feel justified to castigate and hate them.

The book commonly referred to as the Bible is a collection of books divided into two parts, the Old Testament which incorporates various Jewish books and the New Testament which the Christians believe records a more complete revelation. If you want to make yourself feel righteous by quoting something from Leviticus and feel that means something to Christian faith or practice then knock yourself out if that makes you feel better, but it is nothing more than metaphysical self pleasuring.

At one point Jesus is approached to comment on his interpretation of the rules laid out in the early Pentateuch (which already had been superseded by the profits like Isaiah) and here was his response:



Gospel of Matthew


"Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

—Matthew 22:35-40

Gospel of Mark

In the Gospel of Mark, the Shema is included:


"And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

—Mark 12:28-31

The Gospel of Luke


"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

— Luke 10:25-28



This is the definitive, seminal, particular, discrete and comprehensive teaching of Jesus on "religious rules".

Your biblical methodology, ironically, is a mirror image of the most uneducated fundamentalist. In both cases you think you know what the ancient writing says and in both cases you go on a hunt to find a particular passage that you think reinforces your point and consider yourself informed. It is an intellectually lazy and superficial approach to any literature.

My antithesis to you is a direct result of your aggressive anti Islamic bigotry. Up thread Struggles4Progress was very patient with you pointing out the logical fallacy of asserting condemnation of a billion followers of Islam because of the criminal acts of a dozen. But you persisted, really beyond all reason in a level of aggressive tenacity that shows just how deeply rooted these expressions of hatred have.
Having seen that patience didn't have an impact on you why should I take that approach again.

But having an impact on you is not my objective. I just don't want others who come by to think the views you express are widely held here or that there is such a superficial reading of ancient religious texts.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #57)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:39 PM

58. I'm going to respond without using the vicious personal attacks that you are engaging in.

Because I don't need to. Facts are on my side.

Neither I, nor anyone else in this thread, is condemning "a billion followers of Islam because of the criminal acts of a dozen."

What I and others are pointing out is that those dozen WERE inspired, and motivated by, their religion's teachings. You may argue that they weren't following the "true" teachings of Islam but guess what: a sizeable portion of those billion Muslims are going to disagree with you. THAT'S the nature of religion. Division and disagreement are just as common (if not more) than peace and harmony.

Same with what's found in the bible. Like it or not, there are passages that quite clearly instruct people to punish others, sometimes with death. And some Christians (yep, they are Christians just as much as MLK was, just a different kind) even today want to follow those guidelines and execute homosexuals, adulterers, or atheists like myself. They truly believe they are following their god, their religion. When you can convince them they're wrong, then come back and lecture me.

Since the rest of your post is just more insults and straw men, I don't feel a need to address anything else.

Religion CAN be responsible for people doing good things. It CAN ALSO be responsible for people doing bad things.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #26)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 01:33 PM

32. Thanks for the correction. It was a careless mistake of mine:

Bangladesh was, of course, part of Pakistan until the early 1970s

Bangladeshi High Court Prohibits Fatwas To Impose Punishment
First Posted: 07/13/10 02:25 PM ET Updated: 05/25/11 06:00 PM ET

Bangladesh apex court bans fatwa as punishment
Last Updated: Thursday, May 12, 2011, 14:15

ON EDIT: IN SEVERAL OF MY POSTS UPTHREAD I HAVE MADE THE REPLACEMENT "PAKISTANI =>> BANGLADESHI" AFTER DOUBLE-CHECKING FOR ACCURACY: ONE SENTENCE HAS BEEN REMOVED; AND SEVERAL LINKS HAVE BEEN ADDED TO CLARIFY THAT THE RULING AGAINST EXTRAJUDICIAL PUNISHMENT WAS IN FACT A RULING BY THE BANGLADESHI HIGH COURT

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #32)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 01:50 PM

33. And yet despite court rulings...

the fatwas continue. Almost as if those carrying them out were doing so out of allegiance to something other than the laws of their country. Like their religious beliefs.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 03:42 PM

42. I've provided links supporting the following account of events:

Hena Akhter was raped by her cousin, Mehbub Khan, after which Khan's wife imprisoned the girl in their house and abused her further for about twenty four hours, before organizing an extrajudicial village "court" that met in the Khan house, that included Khan's wife and Khan's sister-in-law, and that illegally "sentenced" the girl to a beating that resulted in her death, after which several local doctors examined the body and claimed that they found no significant injuries, concluding the girl had committed suicide

On the other hand, you provide no links whatsoever, nor do you provide any coherent account of the actual events leading to the girl's death, but merely seize upon the word fatwa that appears in some news stories. If you can build a coherent case for your view, based on such facts, as might be actually available to us, why not do so?

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #42)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 06:49 PM

46. The advantage I have is the truth.

Your fictional version of events can't explain one glaring fact. Can you figure out what it is?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #46)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:26 PM

48. If you can build a coherent case for your view, based on such facts, as might be actually available

why not do so?

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #48)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:46 PM

50. You mean like the facts reported by CNN?

When your story can account for ALL of them, not just the one's you've cherry-picked to craft your tale of religious apologia, then maybe you will be taken seriously.

Til then, read more from the Guardian. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/03/bangladesh-clerics-arrested-after-girl-whipped

Police in Bangladesh have arrested four Islamic clerics after a teenage girl accused of having a relationship with a married man was whipped to death.

The clerics were accused of ordering Mosammet Hena, 14, to receive 100 lashes in a fatwa, or religious edict, at a village in south-western Shariatpur district, the area's police chief, AKM Shahidur Rahman, said. The area is 35 miles from the capital, Dhaka.

Fatwas are illegal in Bangladesh, but Islamic clerics sometimes preside over courts that use sharia law and issue fatwas to deal with issues such as extramarital relationships.

Rahman said the girl collapsed after she was lashed in public with a bamboo cane about 70 times on Monday. She was taken to a hospital where she died the same day.


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Response to trotsky (Reply #50)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 01:21 AM

62. One ought to be able to sort out conflicting claims: for example, the report you are citing asserts

(1) the arrest of four muslim clerics
(2) the beating of the girl with a bamboo cane
(3) the death of the girl the same day

Yours is an early report, dating from only a few days after her burial. Later reports, however, that I have linked in this thread

(1) do not mention "four clerics" but rather one "imam"
(2) do not mention beating with a bamboo rod but rather beating with a knotted wet cloth, and
(3) do not indicate the girl died the same day but rather a week later

These multiple conflicts with later reports suggest this early report should be regarded as unreliable

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #62)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 07:52 AM

66. And yet not one of those discrepancies does a thing to dispel the central issue being discussed:

That those who punished her did so because of their religious beliefs.

You can copy & paste all you want from Google to try and defend the bigoted notion that no true religious person could ever do a bad deed, but it won't work.

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Response to skepticscott (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 02:23 PM

34. ... Hena Akhter (also known as Hena Begum), died six days after being lashed ... A village court

found Miss Akhter guilty of having an affair with a fellow villager and cousin, Mahbub Khan ... Muslim scholars say these fatwas are illegal as village-level clerics or elders do not have the authority to issue such rulings.

Bangladesh doctors to be prosecuted over lashing report
By Anbarasan Ethirajan BBC News, Dhaka
28 March 2011 Last updated at 09:01 ET


... Hena Begum's family members say that a village court consisting of a group of village elders and a Muslim cleric found Hena Begum and her cousin Mahbub Khan guilty of having an affair. They also passed the sentence ... But following a high court order, a team of police officers has now descended on the village to conduct a detailed investigation. Four people, including the local Muslim cleric have been arrested and many others are still missing ...

Bangladesh village shaken after lashed girl's death
By Ethirajan Anbarasan BBC News, Chamta Village, Shariatpur
9 February 2011 Last updated at 12:01 ET


... Hena Begum, also called Hena Akter, was buried on 31 January. She was 14 ... A village court consisting of elders and clerics had accused her of having an affair with a fellow villager and cousin, Mahbub Khan. Her family say she was innocent of the accusations. Mr Khan was also found guilty - of rape - by the village council and sentenced to be lashed, but he managed to escape during his punishment. Police have named him as the main accused in the case. They said on Wednesday he had been arrested near Dhaka ...

Bangladesh girl bled to death after lashing say doctors
9 February 2011 Last updated at 09:36 ET


... The family members of the married man also allegedly beat the girl up a day before the village court passed the sentence in the district of Shariatpur ... "We are still waiting for the post-mortem report. In the meantime, we are also looking for another 14 people including a teacher from a local madrassa in connection with this case," Mr Rahman said ... A group of people held a rally on Wednesday in the town of Shariatpur in protest against those who gave the fatwa and demanded action against them ...

Four arrested after Bangladesh girl 'lashed to death'
By Anbarasan Ethirajan BBC News, Dhaka
2 February 2011 Last updated at 06:57 ET


... “We have arrested one of the clerics (who sat on the village court) and three villagers including the wife of the man who Hena Begum had an illicit relationship with,” Rahman told AFP. According to Rahman, the teenage girl was “beaten mercilessly” by the family of the married man, who was also Hena’s cousin, after the affair was discovered. The teenager was then handed to the village court, which publicly whipped her until she passed out and was taken to hospital, where she died seven days later, he said ...

Cleric held after Bangladesh teen whipped to death
AFP | 2nd February, 2011

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 02:30 PM

35. Thanks for the update.

It appears that the Bangladeshi government responded appropriately to this atrocity. Is there more recent information available in re: the outcome of the arrests?

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Response to okasha (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 02:55 PM

38. I've posted what I could find easily from standard news sources

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Response to okasha (Reply #35)


Response to okasha (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 05:03 PM

43. Gee, wouldn't it have been nice

if there had BEEN no religiously motivated atrocity in the first place? Then no response, appropriate or otherwise, would have been required.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 05:35 PM

44. Perhaps you could make your best case that this was actually religiously motivated,

by laying out, as clearly as possible, a detailed description of the events supporting your interpretation

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #44)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 05:46 PM

45. Start here

"The imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment: 101 lashes delivered swiftly, deliberately in public."

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #45)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:21 PM

47. A number of accounts indicate that the venue was some sort of extrajudical "village court"

or "village arbitration" composing local leaders. It is clear that a local teacher Saidur Rahman and a local "imam" Mafiz Uddin wreinvolved, and according to some reports Mafiz was subsequently arrested. I provide a link for that below. I can't determine exactly their relationship to any of the principles in the case

Judged from satellite images, Chamta seems a pretty small place; and since it lacks electricity, running water, and paved roads, it's not terribly prosperous, so there's unlikely to be any professional/salaried religious class there. In the context of Chamta, imam may signify nothing more than some local person regularly chosen to lead prayers, and it probably does not imply much religious training. Similarly fatwa is usually used in connection with scholarly religious rulings, whereas here the term might be used to describe an utterance by a probably untrained local prayer leader, or (to judge from local press) simply "the extrajudicial punishments pronounced by 'makeshift village arbitrations.'" My immediate conclusion from these considerations is that careless usage of words such as imam or fatwa may not be contributing much to the discussion and may actually be misleading: for all I know, these words were added by the various reporters

It's quite possible to imagine a coherent story here with no religious overtones: Mehbub returns home from his trip to Malaysia, flush with cash, and is a big man and world traveler in the eyes of folk in Chamta. He takes a liking to his cousin Hena and harasses her regularly, until her father complains to police and gets a sizable judgment against him (which is never paid). This irritates Mehbub, his wife Shilpi, and their immediate families. But Mehbub still wants Hena and finally sexually assaults her. Shilpi interrupts this assault but blames Hena; she drags the girl back to her house and beats the crap out of the kid for a day, then summons the village elders back to her house to render judgment. Naturally, she does not accuse Mehbub of rape: instead, she accuses her niece of being a little bitch temptress who has seduced her husband away from his life of connubial bliss. Meeting in Shilpi's house, the village elders, with the help of Shilpi and her sister, decide Hena deserves punishment for this and provide a substantial lashing sentence, as well as a hefty monetary judgment against her father (which conveniently cancels the prior judgment he obtained against Mehbub); Mehbub also earns a lashing sentence, but it is to be administered by his own father, and he somehow immediately escapes. Hena, on the other hand, who has been raped, and then beaten for twenty four hours by her angry aunt, now faces a real whopping, and she succumbs to it. Since Mehbub and his family have real political or economic clout in the village, several doctors are easily persuaded to rule Hena's death a suicide

Bangladeshi family tells of grief over girl whipped to death
February 6, 2011
Fariha Karim
... The assault left her on the brink of consciousness, unable to walk or talk. But instead of punishing Hena's attacker, elders called a shalish - a village meeting - where she was accused of having an illicit relationship with a married man. Mahbub's wife, Shilpi, complained that he had secretly been meeting Hena. Village elders found both cousins guilty ... Sara Hossain, a barrister involved in the high court case, said: "We have no Sharia law in Bangladesh except when it comes to family matters. Elders who find a woman guilty of something which they believe to be a social or immoral offence have no authority to do so" ... "I'm not educated," Darbesh said. "I don't know what the court laws are. But I know that if I don't listen to the elders, we would be outcast. None of my daughters could marry, no one would even look at us. If I had known that it would be them who would be punished, not me, then I would have tried to stop it." Makeshift shalish courts, in which village elders and religious clerics hold a trial based on traditional, often religious norms, have been an age-old tradition in rural Bangladesh ...



Shariatpur fatwa case accused still at large
... Hena, a 14-year-old girl, died on Monday after .. 101 lashes .. which villagers said had been ‘endorsed’ at a makeshift village arbitration ... On Tuesday, the police arrested four people in connection with the incident who were then sent to jail. However, the 14 accused, including the main accused, local madrassah teacher Saidur Rahman and local union parishad member Idris Sheikh, were still absconding ... Madrassah teacher Rahman and Imam Mafiz Uddin pronounced a decree to administer 101 lashes on Hena. The police have already arrested Mafiz ... The High Court sought a statement from the local administration .. to explain what measures the local administration had taken to resist Hena’s killing, in line with a previous HC verdict regarding false religious decrees (fatwa) ...



Main suspect in Hena killing held
Re-autopsy report submitted
... The High Court on July 8 last year served a ruling on the government, law enforcers, municipalities and the Union Parishads to take measures against 'fatwa', the extrajudicial punishments pronounced by 'makeshift village arbitrations.'


Hena Whipped to Death
2 accused denied bail
Thursday, March 3, 2011
A Shariatpur court yesterday rejected bail of two accused in connection with the second case filed after rape victim Hena Akhtar was whipped to death ... District Women and Children Repression Prevention Tribunal Judge Fazlur Rahman rejected the bail petition filed on February 22 seeking bail of UP member Idris Sheikh and Ala Box Karati ... Five other accused who are also in the jail were on the dock. They are 'rapist' Mahbub, his wife Shilpi, local imam Mafiz Uddin, Latif Meer Malat and Joynal Meer Malaot ... On February 11, In line with a High Court order, victim's mother filed a fresh case in connection with the death of the rape victim against the same accused on five charges ... The charges are rape, abduction, hatching conspiracy, holding unlawful assembly and torture ...


Islam in Bangladesh
... The majority of Muslims in Bangladesh are Sunni ...


Imam
... The Sunni branch of Islam does not have imams in the same sense as the Shi'a, an important distinction often overlooked by those outside of the Islamic faith. In every day terms, the imam for Sunni Muslims is the one who leads Islamic formal (Fard) prayers, even in locations besides the mosque, whenever prayers are done in a group of two or more with one person leading (imam) and the others follow by copying his ritual actions of worship ...


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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #47)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:36 PM

49. Apologetics by Google 2.0

And yes, we all know you'd like to imagine that this has nothing to do with religion. But your imagination is the only place that notion holds sway.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #49)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:12 PM

55. I provided nearly two dozen links in a careful effort to determine what we know.

You pretty much just call names

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #55)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 09:29 PM

59. No, you provided two dozen links

in an attempt to rationalize this and to blame it on anything but religion, religious faith and religious motivation. Hence the entirely appropriate title of my post. And if you can point to a name you've been called, please do so.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #59)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 01:22 AM

63. I say: facts first, analysis second. You would have it the other way around, it seems

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #63)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 05:53 AM

65. I would characterize your "argument"

as beginning with the conclusion that this couldn't possibly have anything to do with religion, and then crafting your "analysis" to ignore or explain away anything to the contrary.

And still waiting for you to back up your accusation of name calling. Not holding my breath, though...I don't think you'll find that on Google.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #65)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 03:29 PM

89. They started beating on the girl before they had organized their cover story

#85

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #47)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:57 PM

52. You're slipping, s4p.

You aren't even reading your own Googlicious links.

From the first one:
The death has provoked outrage in the country, with human rights activists demanding justice for Hena and an end to the use of religion to deliver justice. Yesterday, rallies and human chains were formed in support of her.

From the second:
The court also asked to explain what measures the local administration had taken to resist Hena’s killing, in line with a previous HC verdict regarding false religious decrees (fatwa).

From the third:
On January 24, villagers administered the 101 lashes on her after local madrasa teacher Saidur Rahman and mosque Imam Md Mafiz Uddin issued a decree in this regard.

And the fourth:
Fifteen-year-old Hena was flogged to death following a fatwa (religious edict) at Chamta in Naria, Shariatpur in January.

The fifth and sixth are even worse pathetic grabs at straws, trying to suggest that the people involved weren't "truly" following their faith.

While you're busy imagining (your own word!) an alternative version of events, a girl is dead because of religious beliefs and religious tradition. It's absolutely disgusting that you seek to defend the murderers rather than the victim. How much lower can you stoop to defend religion?

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #47)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:10 PM

54. You'd better get busy...

You've got another case of religious justice to defend:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21595814

A 15-year-old rape victim has been sentenced to 100 lashes for engaging in premarital sex, court officials said.

...

The legal system of the Maldives, an Islamic archipelago with a population of some 400,000, has elements of Islamic law (Sharia) as well as English common law.


I'm no English legal expert, but I don't think rape victims are traditionally punished in that system. But Islamic law looks very unfavorably upon premarital sex, and DOES punish rape victims.

So get to it, s4p. Defend this case too.

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #47)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:17 PM

56. And as long as I'm making a task list for you,

you'd better straighten these folks out.

How Sharia Law Punishes Raped Women
http://www.aina.org/news/20081117111817.htm

I expect a point-by-point rebuttal if your fantasy how-it-could-have-been scenarios are to be taken seriously.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #56)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 01:55 AM

64. The "fantasy" in my #47 can be supported by links, with only minimal interpolation:

Mehbub returns home from his trip to Malaysia, flush with cash, and is a big man and world traveler in the eyes of folk in Chamta. He takes a liking to his cousin Hena and harasses her regularly, until her father complains to police and gets a sizable judgment against him (which is never paid). This irritates Mehbub, his wife Shilpi, and their immediate families. But Mehbub still wants Hena and finally sexually assaults her. Shilpi interrupts this assault but blames Hena; she drags the girl back to her house and beats the crap out of the kid for a day, then summons the village elders back to her house to render judgment. Naturally, she does not accuse Mehbub of rape: instead, she accuses her niece of being a little bitch temptress who has seduced her husband away from his life of connubial bliss. Meeting in Shilpi's house, the village elders, with the help of Shilpi and her sister, decide Hena deserves punishment for this and provide a substantial lashing sentence, as well as a hefty monetary judgment against her father (which conveniently cancels the prior judgment he obtained against Mehbub); Mehbub also earns a lashing sentence, but it is to be administered by his own father, and he somehow immediately escapes. Hena, on the other hand, who has been raped, and then beaten for twenty four hours by her angry aunt, now faces a real whopping, and she succumbs to it. Since Mehbub and his family have real political or economic clout in the village, several doctors are easily persuaded to rule Hena's death a suicide

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #64)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:04 AM

67. "minimal interpolation"?!?

You are grasping at every straw you can find in order to justify a version of events that clears religious beliefs of ANY responsibility in this incident.

I have used YOUR OWN LINKS to reaffirm the role of religion in this tragedy. You've ignored that because it doesn't fit your agenda.

Let me ask you something, s4p: if religious beliefs DIDN'T play a role, then are you saying that truly religious people can't do bad deeds? That evil only comes from non-believers or those who discard religious teachings? Let's hear it. Put it out there for all to see.

(BTW, others should know your little summary there is engaging in a lot of editorial artistry. Like saying it was just "the village elders" and ignoring IN YOUR OWN LINKS the statements that religious leaders were involved.)

Here's some more quotes from your links that reaffirm that religion DID play a role:
"imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment"
"The imam pronounced his fatwa."
"Next day, a fatwa was announced at a village arbitration"
"Idris Member, an architect of the fatwa"
"Shilpi's brother Akkas Meermalot wasted no time to mention that it should be done in accordance with Islamic law."
"Religious courts where fatwa or religious edicts are pronounced informally exist in almost every village across the country. When an imam of a mosque or a so called religious leader in a village gives an edict, simple God- fearing people, as most villagers are, are forced to accept it."

We can go on as long as you like. You seek to whitewash history, to excuse religion from any possible role in this incident. I choose to face facts and admit that religion DID play a role. The facts are on my side. Now address the points I made in the previous posts above.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #67)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:30 AM

68. Do you know (say) what religious position Idris Member holds?

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #68)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:33 AM

69. Can a person be motivated by religious beliefs without holding a religious position?

Answer the questions I've posed to you. The tough ones that you're ignoring.

State whether you think religious beliefs can motivate someone to do a bad deed, or if that sort of thing is only done by non-believers.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #69)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:47 AM

70. The usual Islamic use of "fatwa" refers to an opinion by someone trained in their canon law,

so if you claim Idris Member issued a fatwa, we should be able to find evidence that he presented himself as someone trained in Islamic law and that he actually issued an opinion that he presented as based on Islamic law. It's not at all clear that happened here. What does seem clear is the police went after him for his participation in an illegal extrajudicial sentencing and punishment. Of course, he might have been motivated by religious belief -- but if you are sure of it, perhaps you could provide some direct evidence of that. I have my own theory about his motivations, of course

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #70)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:56 AM

71. You didn't answer the question.

Could he have been motivated by his religious beliefs even *if* he wasn't adequately trained (in your unsupported opinion) in Islamic law?

In other words, do you admit it is possible he was following his religious beliefs as he understood them? (Your opinion of what "true" Islam is, would be a topic for another thread.)

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Response to trotsky (Reply #67)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 10:14 AM

72. Now let's turn to "Shilpi's brother Akkas Meermalot"

BTW there sure are a buncha Meeralots involved!

Fresh case recorded in line with HC order]
Saturday, February 12, 2011
18 named, 10-12 unnamed people accused of rape, abduction, torture; Fatwa charge not pressed
... The named accused are Mahbub Khan, Shilpi Khan, Jahanara Begum, Morsheda Begum, Idris Sheikh, member of Chamta union parishad, Akkas Meermalot, Yeasin Meermalot, Dil Mohmmad Meermalot, Ala Box Karati, Joynal Meermalot, Latif Meermalot, Abdul Hai Meermalot, Hafez Md Mofiz Talukder, Saiful, Monimala, Robiul Khan, Hasan Meermalot and Jamal Shikder ...


Oh, and Shilpi, Jahanara, Morsheda, and Monimala are also part of the same fun family:

Exhuming the Truth
... Two of Shilpi's relatives, Morsheda and Jahanara also joined in for the onslaught. They dragged Hena into the house and beat her mercilessly ... A vengeful Shilpi organised a team of arbitrators-- all of whom were her family members or in-laws except for the local madrasa teacher moulana Saiful and local mosque Imam Hafez Mafiz-- to come to her house at around midnight ... “As our child was unable to walk, we had to carry her to Shilpi's house,” Aklima says ... About six months ago, Mahbub had been fined Tk 75,000 in a local arbitration for harassing Hena ... Interestingly it was Shilpi's sister-in-law Monimala who was selected for lashing Hena while Mahbub's father Robiul Kha was selected to execute the order on his son ...


Anyway, your view (as I understand it) is that Akkas Meermalot must be motivated purely by religious considerations. Of course! within the last day or so, his brother-in-law Mehbub has raped a girl young enough to be Mehbub's daughter, after which his sister Shilpi with a couple of other ladies in the family pounded the crap out of the girl, until she's barely able to move: that's always some sort of lead-in to a moment of shared family piety, isn't it?

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #72)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 10:17 AM

73. Answer my questions.

Anyway, your view (as I understand it) is that Akkas Meermalot must be motivated purely by religious considerations.

You are wrong, as I have made clear in this thread and the poll I posted, which I notice you still haven't voted in.

within the last day or so, his brother-in-law Mehbub has raped a girl young enough to be Mehbub's daughter, after which his sister Shilpi with a couple of other ladies in the family pounded the crap out of the girl, until she's barely able to move: that's always some sort of lead-in to a moment of shared family piety, isn't it?

Have you heard of honor killings?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #67)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:28 PM

85. Let us now examine your quote: "When .. a so called religious leader .. gives an edict .. most

villagers .. are forced to accept it"

The actual context here is that Shilpi Khan with several of her relatives beat the girl badly, after which Shilpi immediately organized a group, almost entirely composed of her relatives and in-laws, who met in the middle of the night at Shilpi's house, to condemn the girl further, after which Shilpi's sister-in-law administered another beating, which proved fatal

The story thus involves three separate incidents of criminal violence against the girl: (1) Mehbub Khan's rape of the girl; (2) the girl's beating by Shilpi, Morsheda, and Jahanara, which left the girl unable to walk; and (3) the girl's further beating after midnight by Monimala, after Shilpi and fourteen of Shilpi's relatives decided the girl deserved further punishment for "adultery"

There is, of course, some effort to provide the cover that all this violence was appropriate: that is why Shilpi's relative Idris (a local elected village official), Saiful (a local teacher), and Mafiz (a local prayer leader) are called in -- look! government supports us! scholars support us! our religion supports us! But serious violence begins much earlier

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #85)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:26 PM

86. Until you answer my questions, I don't really care how you choose to defend the murderers.

Religion was a motivation, and a vehicle, that helped allow this to happen. You will never be able to whitewash the truth, no matter how much Google white you stare at during your searches.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #86)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:47 PM

87. And in my experience, you still wouldn't care if I answered your silly questions

Have a nice day

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #87)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:50 PM

88. On the contrary, I'd love answers.

But from my experience, I know better than to expect them from you!

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Response to skepticscott (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 12:46 AM

60. Religiously, Bangladesh is about 90% Muslim and about 9% Hindu. It has universal suffrage. In 2008,

the Bangladesh Awami League and its political allies won 262 of 345 seats in Parliament or about 3/4 of the seats. The League appears to be a progressive pro-democracy party, supporting secular government and socialist initiatives

Here is their 2008 platform:

The vision 2021 of Bangladesh Awami League

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #60)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 10:30 PM

79. Evidently, the Muslims still running the country like in the middle ages

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #79)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:05 AM

80. Personally, I'd be quite pleased if we could get 3/4 of the seats in the US Congress filled

with people dedicated to increasing the number of women in office, opposed to the use of religion in politics, and committed to economic justice in our society: I think that even in the US that would represent a big step forward

So I'm not quite sure why you would regard news that happened, in Bangladesh, as evidence "Muslims still run the country like in the middle ages" -- unless, of course, some bigotry were involved

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #80)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:42 PM

83. Reallly? I guess you haven't read the new in the last few years. If calling "bigoty,

certain religions for their barbaric treatment of women, so be it.

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #83)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:06 PM

84. Since you reach sweeping conclusions about the 140+ million Muslims in Bangladesh,

from this story about Shilpi Khan organizing her relatives to administer fatal beating to her niece Hena Akhter, after the girl was raped, I find your reasoning defective

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #84)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 07:01 PM

91. As I find yours nt

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #91)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 08:29 PM

92. Because I don't reach conclusions about 140+ million folk from the actions of 14 or so?

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #92)

Fri Mar 1, 2013, 12:03 AM

94. Don't be fatuous

From Amnesty International:

Violence against women and girls

According to government figures, violence against women topped all crimes reported to the police in the first six months of the year. Of 7,285 complaints made, 1,586 were rape cases. Parliament passed the Domestic Violence (Prevention and Protection) Bill in October.


Don't delude yourself into thinking this was an isolated incident. There is a demonstrable pattern of systemic sexism endogenous to countries "ruled" by Islamic law. That is not a judgement or a generalization of Muslims, but an objective evaluation of the religion's policies towards women.

The laws--not the people--are the problem.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #94)

Fri Mar 1, 2013, 12:14 AM

95. Bangladesh is the most densely inhabited country in the world with a population over half

that of the US, where we had over 83K forcible rapes reported in 2011. If rape were as widespread in Bangladesh, as in the US, you would expect about 41K rapes a year in Bangladesh, instead of about 3K

Bangladesh, moreover, is not ruled by "Islamic law," as you would know, had you actually bothered to read my post #60 at the top of this subthread: three quarters of the seats in Parliament are currently held by secularists, whose political agenda includes increasing the number of parliamentary seats reserved for women from the current 45

... Bangladesh's Awami League won a landslide victory in 2008 on a platform of secularism, reform, and a suppression of radical Islamist groups ...

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #95)

Fri Mar 1, 2013, 11:57 PM

96. Try to keep up with the converseation please

It should first be pointed out that your comparison of rape rates in Bangladesh to those of the United States is tu quoque nonsense. What happens here does not justify what happens there. Not that anyone here would jump to the defense of "American rape" anyway.

But rape is only half of the equation. The other half is how the Bangladeshi authorities respond to rape, which, according to Amnesty International, is beyond inadequate.

Yes, Bangladesh is ostensibly secular, but as it was already keenly pointed out, the rule of law rarely extends beyond urban environs. Remote, isolated rural villages and towns are left to their own devices, without much in the way of federal oversight. In the absence of formal legal authorities in these regions, villagers are shown to rely on "traditional" punitive measures, such as honor killings (which number in the thousands per year in Bangladesh) or coercing victims into marrying their attackers.

Since you have apparently failed to grasp this simple fact, I'll reiterate: these conditions are by no means a reflection of Bangladeshis, or Muslims, as a whole. These conditions are not, however, insignificant.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #96)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 10:21 PM

97. Naturally, we should take seriously whatever AI says about human rights issues, including rates

of interpersonal violence and sexual assault: even one rape is one too many. But you claimed Bangladesh was governed by Islamic law and then further claimed that Islamic law explained violence against women in Bangladesh. Your first claim is simply false, as I have shown, and second claim appears to open up further avenues of confusion: if you blame Islam for violence against women in Bangladesh, to what do you attribute the high rates of violence against women in the US?

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #79)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 08:25 AM

99. It's not the government that did this

The people actually running the country object to such actions.

The Prime Minister of Bangladesh is female and pro-secularism.

There are a sizeable number of Islamic extremists in Bangladesh, but they are not currently the government.

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