My Train Wreck Conversion

[LARED]

This discussion thread was locked by muriel_volestrangler (a host of the Religion group).

As a leftist lesbian professor, I despised Christians. Then I somehow became one.

Link

After my tenure book was published, I used my post to advance the understandable allegiances of a leftist lesbian professor. My life was happy, meaningful, and full. My partner and I shared many vital interests: aids activism, children's health and literacy, Golden Retriever rescue, our Unitarian Universalist church, to name a few. Even if you believed the ghost stories promulgated by Robertson and his ilk, it was hard to argue that my partner and I were anything but good citizens and caregivers. The GLBT community values hospitality and applies it with skill, sacrifice, and integrity.

I began researching the Religious Right and their politics of hatred against queers like me. To do this, I would need to read the one book that had, in my estimation, gotten so many people off track: the Bible. While on the lookout for some Bible scholar to aid me in my research, I launched my first attack on the unholy trinity of Jesus, Republican politics, and patriarchy, in the form of an article in the local newspaper about Promise Keepers. It was 1997.

........

I started reading the Bible. I read the way a glutton devours. I read it many times that first year in multiple translations. At a dinner gathering my partner and I were hosting, my transgendered friend J cornered me in the kitchen. She put her large hand over mine. "This Bible reading is changing you, Rosaria," she warned.

With tremors, I whispered, "J, what if it is true? What if Jesus is a real and risen Lord? What if we are all in trouble?"
J exhaled deeply. "Rosaria," she said, "I was a Presbyterian minister for 15 years. I prayed that God would heal me, but he didn't. If you want, I will pray for you."

........

Then, one ordinary day, I came to Jesus, openhanded and naked. In this war of worldviews, Ken was there. Floy was there. The church that had been praying for me for years was there. Jesus triumphed. And I was a broken mess. Conversion was a train wreck. I did not want to lose everything that I loved. But the voice of God sang a sanguine love song in the rubble of my world. I weakly believed that if Jesus could conquer death, he could make right my world. I drank, tentatively at first, then passionately, of the solace of the Holy Spirit. I rested in private peace, then community, and today in the shelter of a covenant family, where one calls me "wife" and many call me "mother."

I have not forgotten the blood Jesus surrendered for this life.

And my former life lurks in the edges of my heart, shiny and still like a knife.

======================

A powerful testimony of a changed heart and mind.

[Freddie]

1. Thanks for this

You can definitely be a Christian and a liberal, and a feminist. I am. In my church (ELCA Lutheran) men and women are 100% equal, and ALL are welcome. Check out The Christian Left on Facebook for great stuff.

[jollyreaper2112]

3. I don't think you read the article

She was saved from the gay and is a good little wife with a husband, the real kind, bible in one hand and penis in the other. That's all gay conversion takes, spare the rod and all. Wonder if that technique will work on evolutionists and atheists? :p

[jollyreaper2112]

2. Pretty disgusting

I have no problem with someone finding a religion to suit them. I have no problem with someone exploring sexuality. Sometimes someone is sexually flexible and unsure whether living as gay or straight is a better fit. My sister is a bit militant on the gay thing and can't take seriously any woman who calls herself a lesbian and has no hangups about sex with men. I tell her it takes all kinds. There are guys who live as heterosexuals with a wife and kids and still enjoy having sex with other men on occasion but would deck you if you called them gay. The only wrong in any of this is if they cause harm by not being truthful to themselves and the people who could be hurt by their actions.

At any rate, this article does not read like an exploration of faith but more bullshit about cure the gay. Covenant families are code for extreme fundie shit. It's propaganda, not truth. There are plenty of gay-friendly churches that won't try to drive out the Demon Gay while spreading the Jesus.

[deutsey]

7. I encourage people who are interested in another kind of conversion story

To read Sara Miles' book Take This Bread

http://saramiles.net/take_this_bread

You probably won't read anything by her in Christianity Today.

"Mine is a personal story of an unexpected and terribly inconvenient Christian conversion, told by a very unlikely convert: a blue-state, secular intellectual; a lesbian, a left-wing journalist with a habit of skepticism."

To my knowledge she is still all of these (she's in a committed marriage with her female partner and they're raising a daughter) but a Christian nonetheless.

[LARED]

9. Somehow I missed the cure the gay part.

The article stuck me as a genuine testimony of a change life.

[2ndAmForComputers]

11. Yeah.

Right.

[cali]

15. You got away with this but you should delete it.

It's ugly and homophobic.

[LARED]

18. Funny, "I got away it this."

I got away with what? Posting an article about a religious conversion in the religion forum?

It not ugly. It's not homophobic.

If you can make a compelling case why it is both, I will gladly self-delete.

[cali]

22. I'll gladly try

Ms. Butterfield is a rightwing Christian activist who tells a somewhat disingenuous tale of conversion. This is NOT a site that indulges right wing Christian philosophy and your are endorsing it.

[LARED]

26. I did a web search on her right wing activism, and came up with

not much.

The same article I posted was posted on the Freeper site and with a few other articles. None revealed right wing activism. Almost no hits on Google. No left wing activism either.

Hardly a indictment of right wing activism.

How do you know the tale of conversion was disingenuous?

[eomer]

46. The article itself is rightwing activism.

The idea that the gay is a sin that can and should be cured by coming to Jesus.

[eomer]

41. The article advocates that homosexuality is a sin that Jesus can fix, can "make right by world".

From the article:

But God's promises rolled in like sets of waves into my world. One Lord's Day, Ken preached on John 7:17: "If anyone wills to do [God's] will, he shall know concerning the doctrine" (NKJV). This verse exposed the quicksand in which my feet were stuck. I was a thinker. I was paid to read books and write about them. I expected that in all areas of life, understanding came before obedience. And I wanted God to show me, on my terms, why homosexuality was a sin. I wanted to be the judge, not one being judged.

But the verse promised understanding after obedience. I wrestled with the question: Did I really want to understand homosexuality from God's point of view, or did I just want to argue with him? I prayed that night that God would give me the willingness to obey before I understood. I prayed long into the unfolding of day. When I looked in the mirror, I looked the same. But when I looked into my heart through the lens of the Bible, I wondered, Am I a lesbian, or has this all been a case of mistaken identity? If Jesus could split the world asunder, divide marrow from soul, could he make my true identity prevail? Who am I? Who will God have me to be?

Then, one ordinary day, I came to Jesus, openhanded and naked. In this war of worldviews, Ken was there. Floy was there. The church that had been praying for me for years was there. Jesus triumphed. And I was a broken mess. Conversion was a train wreck. I did not want to lose everything that I loved. But the voice of God sang a sanguine love song in the rubble of my world. I weakly believed that if Jesus could conquer death, he could make right my world. I drank, tentatively at first, then passionately, of the solace of the Holy Spirit. I rested in private peace, then community, and today in the shelter of a covenant family, where one calls me "wife" and many call me "mother."

The main thing that this article brings is the idea of being cured of the gay by Jesus, that being gay is a sin and that one can and should let Jesus fix that, stop being gay, become hetero like Jesus wants you to.

But maybe it's not so bad to have this stuff appear here - it is a perfect illustration of the point that letting organized religion be the source of our morality is a dangerous mistake. This is one of the many terrible stories that will result from that. Taking our morality instead from its true source - the feelings of compassion, fellow feelings that are our inherent nature as human beings - will serve as the positive influence that we need from morality without at the same time laying on us (as religion can) this kind of horrible stigma, on people who are just living their lives as who they really are rather than who some ancient texts says they ought to be.

[Buzz Clik]

29. +1!!!

I initially trashed this thread to avoid being the first to post, but I find it absolutely disgusting.

[Buzz Clik]

27. No way!

Your post was far too carefully crafted. You knew exactly what it was about put pasted this shit anyway.

[LARED]

30. I had no idea DU had some many mind readers. nt

[Buzz Clik]

32. I read the original article.

You very carefully filtered out the most offensive parts before posting it here.

Let's say that cali, 2ndforcomps, and I are all wrong and you were totally aware of the offensive nature of the article referenced in the OP. Why are you leaving it up?

[cali]

43. I am sickened right now. won't say anything more

beyond that I agree with what you say in this post because I don't want my post deleted.

Disgusting.

[Buzz Clik]

51. +1

This was a failure by the system to leave this up.

[Hepburn]

67. Ditto

[Smarmie Doofus]

60. LOL. There are parts of the article that are *MORE* offensive than what OP posted!?

Now I'm intrigued.

But, no. I'm NOT going to read the article. I've seen the argument before. In many shapes and forms and transfigurations . Over many many years of exposure to this mentality.

I almost NEVER question anyones's right to post almost ANYTHING on DU.

But.... really. Did this get ok'ed by a DU jury?

[2ndAmForComputers]

63. See post 5 further down.

[Bluenorthwest]

49. There is no mind present to read, just some ignorant crap in simpleton's English.

This is hateful garbage you have posted here.

[William769]

65. I had no idea that DU had people stupid in the teachings of Christ. nt

[MH1]

71. Re-read it, then. Particularly the mini-bio at the end

where it says she is now a happy wife and her husband is a pastor at a Presbyterian church. Unless they're using "husband" to refer to her partner, who somehow would be allowed to preach in a Presbyterian church .... then go back and read the article again.

I never heard the term "covenant family" before but I guess it's a reference to Paulist ideal: man in charge, wife obedient, etc., and no gayness allowed.

Yep, the article has some good things to say about the LGBT community but it is still a fable of allegedly "successful" pray away the gay, and intended to bolster that movement, therefore not appropriate for DU.

[2ndAmForComputers]

10. "There are plenty of gay-friendly churches that won't try to drive out the Demon Gay"

That's correct. But for some, those are not Christian enough.

[Fumesucker]

4. "J, what if it is true? What if Jesus is a real and risen Lord? What if we are all in trouble?"

Not even the other two Abrahamic religions on the planet believe that, are all the devout members of any other religion damned to never experience holy bliss?

I sure get an amazingly strong "Bible reading and prayer cure the evil of homosexuality" vibe from this piece.

[jollyreaper2112]

6. Here's what you do

Read this as a Lovecraft story.

The rational protagonist is researching a cult from a detached, anthropological perspective. Their holy texts warp her mind and stress her sanity to the breaking point. The madness takes hold and she becomes a cultist herself, worshipping the Great Old Ones, ritualistically consuming the flesh and blood of her god. She is an alien now to her old life, her partner looking on in horror at the thing with the shape and countenance of her old love but no longer herself. See how she gazes in worshipful admiration of the man who has claimed her in the name of his living god, washed her in the blood of the lamb, ia ia yeshua fhtagn!

[Fumesucker]

14. I understand, it happened to me, I was the rejected partner when my ex "found God"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=267261&mesg_id=267261

[2ndAmForComputers]

5. It's clear you are a-OK wit this "gay cure" crap.

I wrestled with the question: Did I really want to understand homosexuality from God's point of view, or did I just want to argue with him? I prayed that night that God would give me the willingness to obey before I understood. I prayed long into the unfolding of day. When I looked in the mirror, I looked the same. But when I looked into my heart through the lens of the Bible, I wondered, Am I a lesbian, or has this all been a case of mistaken identity? If Jesus could split the world asunder, divide marrow from soul, could he make my true identity prevail? Who am I? Who will God have me to be?

And then...

I drank, tentatively at first, then passionately, of the solace of the Holy Spirit. I rested in private peace, then community, and today in the shelter of a covenant family, where one calls me "wife" and many call me "mother."
I have not forgotten the blood Jesus surrendered for this life.
And my former life lurks in the edges of my heart, shiny and still like a knife.

Please share with us how you can consider this crap even remotely OK and non-homophobic.

[LARED]

13. First you will need to explain how the former lesbian

that wrote this "crap" is homophobic.

[2ndAmForComputers]

16. Do I really need to? I think YOU have to explain how she did NOT become one.

[LARED]

19. Yes, you really need to.

You made the accusation, so defend it.

[2ndAmForComputers]

21. It's so self-evident it isn't even funny.

Do you think "I found Jesus and therefore am no longer gay" is OK?

And about that "I missed that part" -- come on, do you think everybody here are idiots?

[LARED]

23. I absolutely think that's ok

It is as OK as being gay or being heterosexual, or whatever way people want to live their lives.

Who am I to judge this person? I found the article honest and non judgmental.

I guess you are comfortable judging peoples lives as well as censoring thing you disagree with.

[2ndAmForComputers]

24. By praising this story, you're judging more than one person.

You're judging every gay person in the world. As "guilty." These "gay cure" stories validate that Leviticus "abomination" hogwash.

If (IF) the OP story is true, the author is a victim. Of Christian brainwashing. I pity her. She traded a good life for Hell on earth, all for nothing.

IF the story is true and not made up fundie fiction.

And don't give me that "censorship" bullcrap. There are rules in this place, and you broke them.

[LARED]

28. Frankly that's the biggest load of horse pucky

I've read in a long time

I'll get back to you later I m leaving for church.

[cali]

47. Have a good self-righteous time.

I won't miss you one little tiny bit. Neither will most of the people on this thread, I wager.

[boston bean]

57. Was this posted to be a flame war?

Just by saying this one woman had a true awakening, means that all others who do not, may be wrong and need more jesus. Because she's got "religion" on her side, she has found the real truth.

The article and the defense of it on DU, I think may be a TOS event.

Good luck.

[skepticscott]

58. Knowing this poster's

past behavior, it wouldn't surprise me at all. They put this up with only one sentence of fawning praise as a comment.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

148. Looks like you won't be getting back to this thread.

Is your religion OK with zombies?

Hahahaha

[eomer]

66. How about the being gay is a sin part? Are you okay with that? n/t

[BainsBane]

25. She says homosexuality is sin

a crime against God, etc. . . Can't get more homophobic than that.

[Humanist_Activist]

52. There's no such thing as a former lesbian, a confused bisexual I could buy...

but a former lesbian is about as likely as a former straight person.

[LeftishBrit]

69. Well...

Last edited Sun Feb 10, 2013, 02:40 PM - Edit history (1)

she is the author of a book called 'The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert', which includes a chapter entitled 'Repentance and the Sin of Sodom'. While I have not read the chapter, the title certainly sounds homophobic.

Beyond the homophobia - why should being a Christian require one to give up ones post as an English professor? I realize that people of either gender might feel a 'calling' to religious service, e.g. as a missionary or charitable worker, that requires them to give up other activities; but in the context, it does look as though adopting traditional gender roles is, for her, part of being a Christian. This is less obvious than the homophobia, but it still worries me.

[2ndAmForComputers]

8. In case the OP self-deletes, this is what he posted:

This link.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/january-february/my-train-wreck-conversion.html?paging=off

Then, some excerpts.

Then, the OP offered his opinion about the above:

"A powerful testimony of a changed heart and mind."

Really. There's no way to accurately assess this OP without getting this post deleted.

[cali]

12. I just voted to hide this. It's ugly, ugly, ugly.

[2ndAmForComputers]

17. 3-3. The Team sure sweated bullets to save this one. But it's OK. It will go to Admin.

[LARED]

20. I sure the admin's just heaved a great sign of relief.

[Buzz Clik]

31. You have two options:

1) Delete the OP because it's clearly homophobic.
2) Leave it and admit you don't care that it's homophobic.

That simple.

[2ndAmForComputers]

38. 3) Deny and defend it against all evidence

Seems to be the choice here.

I actually don't want him to choose option #1. I'm sure you understand why.

[Buzz Clik]

39. Nope. 3 and 2 are identical. The article is homophobic, and you are defending it.

Your choice.

Accept the consequences.

[2ndAmForComputers]

40. Good point. There is NO third option.

[idwiyo]

78. +1

[2ndAmForComputers]

62. Bookmarking this taunt.

I suspect I shall link back to it with great satisfaction in a few hours. We'll see.

[Squinch]

33. I don't see the logic of how reading a book full of violence and oppression and

ugliness changes someone's sexual orientation. That's a pretty big leap from "I started reading the bible" to "One day I came to Jesus naked." How exactly does one "come to Jesus naked?" And how exactly does that change one's sexual orientation?

These stories are always full of great sounding and meaningless phrases: "Jesus triumphed." This translates to the author changed her mind. "God sang a sanguine love song." What? What could that possibly mean? "Jesus could conquor death." You're going to die, sweetie. Whatever you believe about what happens afterwards, you're still going to die. Just get over it.

Personally I don't see it. But that's me.

The day that I see someone's conversion story that ends with, "It led me to a perfect acceptance of myself as I was, and a love for people of all orientations, and a need to work for the protection of the earth that God has given us," then I'll take some notice.

[OKNancy]

34. There is a lot wrong here

This woman went from a radical lesbian feminist to a radical conservative Presbyterian. I find this really hard to believe.
Apparently she had relations with men before she entered in her partnership. ( I read a lot of reviews on Amazon by people who read the book)

But despite all that the premise of this book is: god and Jesus don't like gay people. Gays people are not good Christians.
In order to be a good Christian, you can't be gay... and so because she wanted to be Christian, she prayed away the gay.

We all know here at DU, that this is bullshit. Most of us have family or friends who have gone through this...or have firsthand experience.

I find this conversion story disgusting and dishonest.

[BainsBane]

36. It sounded like complete propaganda to me

The homophobia as well as the language about her being "on the road to being a radical tenured professor." So I did some hunting on the web. Much to my shock, she did publish academic articles and gave a paper at Harvard about Promise Keepers. I am no way supporting her story. Far from it. But strangely, she checks out.

[pintobean]

42. Excellent post.

You really put this into perspective. I hope the OP reads your post and really considers it, then self deletes the OP. If that doesn't happen, you should be quoted in any future alerts in this thread.

[OKNancy]

45. thank you

[cali]

54. Why is this poster here?

She's defended creationism, attacked evolution, is anti-choice ad homophobic.

[cali]

48. + a lot, Nancy and thanks.

[pinto]

64. +1

Full of stereotype, some self-serving and some really chilling.

[jehop61]

35. She asks

What if the Bible is true? I ask, what if its fiction? Glad she found Ken, though.

[Humanist_Activist]

37. First, this story sounds like bullshit, and is common among many conversion stories...

She was, after all, a big bad leftist lesbian. Could she have packed so many more adjectives into this? Then you have the "gay cure" crap, which means the story is definitely bullshit.

Oh, I don't doubt that she may have converted, but the story reeks of exaggeration, something a lot of people who convert do when they talk about their preconversion lives.

[Squinch]

44. What, you don't think that "God sang a sanguine song" and cured her of the gay?

If the message weren't so icky, the purple prose would be a little funny.

[Humanist_Activist]

50. Yeah, it comes of as a bad fan fic for conversion rather than an genuine story...

Its something that many right wing Christians would LIKE to be true, but that doesn't mean it is true, in fact, for them, truthfulness is irrelevant, as long as their bubble is not penetrated they are happy.

[Squinch]

53. I think that there is something psychologically potent in that language:

the phrases are all full of very positive words: triumph, "God sang a sanguine love song", "real and risen lord", "I drank of the solace of the holy spirit", "shelter of a covenant family."

But the phrases themselves don't actually make any sense. You become lulled by the positivity of the words, but there are no real thoughts there to follow. The overall effect is a happy, mindless drifting.

I wonder if that feeling is the appeal.

Unlike many here, I do believe there is more than this life, though I am not a member of a religion. I am open to stories of spiritual experiences. But the stories of right wing Christianity just never actually say anything. They are always of the form: I was evil, because I did not support the propagation of the patriarchy, Jesus triumphed, and now I do support the propagation of the patriarchy. That's not spirituality.

[brewens]

55. I've never read The Bible and don't plan to. I do know a lot of it. I have no objection at all

to much of what I know. Of course I'm a little skeptical that they have the story of Jesus right. Did he really exist, say all those things and what did he say that they left out?

As far as reading The Bible and starting to go to church, why would I? I already know they can't prove much of what their religion is all about. They have what I consider a diabolical system of convincing people to believe. The fact that so many others believe could never impress me, I know that they do not know and will continue to know that! I see no reason to give their system a chance to work on me.

[William769]

56. As a Gay man and a Christian I find this OP contemptible

I also find your motives for posting this disingenuous.

Apparently you are not well versed in the teachings of Jesus, if you were you would see this for the crap that it is and if you are well versed in the teachings of Jesus then shame on you for being disingenuous.

I challenge you to post anything listed in the Bible where Jesus says anything about Homosexuality being a sin. I won't hold my breath because you won't be able to.

Reading your replies in this thread & doubling down only looks worse on you & a little friendly advice I will give freely to you and can be quoted and as Gospel (pun intended) is DU'S TOS. I suggest you read it before posting anymore of this tripe (and also let it be said here that TOS is not part of community standards (hint hint)).

[Dorian Gray]

61. This is the response the OP should pay most attention to

You are right. I wish that he would see that himself.

[idwiyo]

84. I am sorry you have to deal with this crap again, and again, and again.

I do hope admin will boot their arse off this website. There is no excuse for posting "pray the gay away" BS on a progressive website.

[William769]

86. Poster has been shown the door.

& thank you.

[idwiyo]

93. Thank you!!! That's best and fastest PPR ever. (((Hugs)))

[okasha]

85. I agree entirely.

The only thing that rings true about this account is that this woman's experience was in fact a spiritual and psychological train wreck.

[William769]

90. ...

[grantcart]

59. What if the bible is true?

What if the bible is woefully misunderstood by weak minded lazy people who won't bother to find out what scholarship says about what the Bible actually means.

That some people think that what was obviously symbolic language is now taken literally, ala creationism or the virgin birth, is astonishing.

[myrna minx]

68. This dangerous and homophobic post is shameful and should not be allowed to

pollute out site.

To any confused young ones who may have read this BS, please refer to:
http://www.itgetsbetter.org/

and

http://www.thetrevorproject.org/

There is nothing wrong with you and there's nothing to "pray away" if you're LGBTIQ. You're all precious. Despite toxic thinking like that expressed in the OP, it does get better and you have a wonderful life to look forward to.

[MotherPetrie]

70. She sounds delusional

[skepticscott]

72. So where are all of the "liberal", "progressive" Christians

who post so regularly here, and who trumpet the wonderful, all-encompassing good done by their version of religion? Not one has the moral courage to come right out and say how despicable this post AND the OP's subsequent defense of it is.

And they wonder why the religious left gets so little love from atheists and anti-theists.

[2ndAmForComputers]

73. They think it's more important to poo-poo a newspaper scan that's maybe not genuine.

[skepticscott]

77. Or to crank up the apologetics

right on schedule. Apparently now, "curing" gays and lesbians is to be exalted as teaching them to be "honest" with themselves.

[LeftishBrit]

88. Yes, people have.

William for example. I think Dorian Gray is also a liberal Christian. Okasha definitely is. Probably others on this thread (I don't know the religion or non-religion of every DU poster!)

[kestrel91316]

123. LOTS of DUers have come and called this OP despicable.

Some of them are religious. But thank you for promoting your OWN divisive drivvel.

[skepticscott]

129. Nice try, but I'm not the one who made this divisive

That was a religious person. I have no problem with the people who have stepped up to condemn this. But only a small minority of self-professed "liberal" and "progressive" believers in this group have done so.

[kestrel91316]

139. Yeah. It's a Sunday morning. People are probably still either in bed

or going out to brunch or maybe attending their local PROGRESSIVE church. What they are NOT doing is hanging out on DU just to keep YOU satisfied of their progressive credentials.

[skepticscott]

141. Oh, I've seen more than a few

posting merrily in other threads this morning, and carefully avoiding this one, which they can hardly have not seen. Funny, that...wouldn't you say?

[humblebum]

74. LARED referenced an article by a woman who found the life that was right for her. Nowhere

is it stated that such a life is right for everyone. Belief in Jesus is not about molding everyone into a "Jesusbot" where every one is identical in every respect. In fact, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" - meaning that there is not a single perfect person among us. People come to Jesus just as they are and they are to be accepted as such. That is the ideal. Unfortunately, not all churches hold to such acceptance, but if they were being honest, then in addition to rejecting all gays, they would also have to reject all divorced people, all people who marry a divorced person, anyone who has ever lied, anyone who has a food addiction, all gamblers, all dishonest politicians, all smokers, and on and on and on.

The result, of course, is that there would be a bunch of empty churches without anyone in them because everyone has been rejected. So then, what is the value of religion and of accepting Jesus?

James 1:27 states that, "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

I think that Christianity is about being as honest as one can be about themselves. The article does not say that all people like Rosaria are changed. Perhaps, though she found the lifestyle that was right for her, and that is what I took away from the article. It does not condemn all gay people, and perhaps there are many among the gay community who really are not gay but are merely trying to fit in?

We do know, as fact, that some are born gay, as is very evident from both an observation of other species, and from the study of other cultures in which gays are fully accepted for who they are - not fad, but fact.

I am not trying to tell others why they should accept Jesus, nor why it takes a religion to get people to do what they can do for themselves without religion or belief in Jesus. That is not my point here. I am merely surmising that the woman found her true self, without insisting that her change was right for everyone else. It's all about being as honest with oneself as possible, and not whether one is gay or straight.

In fact, the qualities of being gay or straight, rich or poor, intellectual or simple-minded, black or white, conservative or liberal, Republican, Democrat, Communist or Socialist,etc., are all secondary to accepting Jesus. There is no perfect person. No one is right all the time. But, Rosaria was finally being honest about who she was, and that is what I took away from the story.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

96. You're defending this shit?

I think you've reached a new low, humblebum.

[humblebum]

107. I am defending the right of a person to choose the lifestyle that is right for them.

Obviously you do not.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

115. Ah, so homosexuality is a choice?

Gotcha. Glad I could finally pin you down. Sure you're in the right place?

[kestrel91316]

126. Being gay is NOT a lifestyle choice, as you well know.

[uppityperson]

131. Sexual orientation is hardwired, not a "lifestyle". Have you seriously missed this point?

[kestrel91316]

125. I disagree. I think her story is basically made up.

She's probably still the bisexual woman she always was - just straitjacketed in her little closet now.

[idwiyo]

75. This is a powerful testimony to homophobic bigotry one can get away with on DU.

Do you believe that homosexuality is a "lifestyle choice"?
Do you also believe that if one prays hard enough their eye colour will change and they will grow taller, or shorter?

This article is absolutely disgusting and promoting it as beyond the pale.

[Vanje]

76. Is that from a Chick Tract? nt

[fishwax]

79. a "powerful story" of praying away the gay? Coming to the conclusion that being gay is sinful?

Sorry, but that's BS. I think you should delete this homophobic nonsense, but I see from upthread that this is unlikely.

[muriel_volestrangler]

80. LARED has been PPR'd by admin

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=110494&sub=trans

The Religion hosts were asked to lock this before the PPR happened; if anyone has opinions on whether a lock is still needed, I'd be happy to hear them (here, or PM me).

[skepticscott]

81. This thread should not be locked

nor the OP deleted. People need to see the kind of ugliness that spews from the religious side of the fence here, and to see who condemns it and who defends it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

83. Well, it wouldn't be deleted anyway - it was an admin PPR of a long term member

so the 'auto-delete' of recent posts didn't apply. But I/we will take you point into account.

[William769]

82. Yes still please lock.

This post is full of homophobia which is against TOS evident by the person being PPR'D.

Group Hosts no not have to follow the same guidelines as the main forum Hosts do. This is a perfect opportunity for the Hosts of this Group to say This is not allowwed in this Group.

[boston bean]

89. I agree. I also sent an SOP alert for the hosts to consider.

Especially now that he has been ppr'd why let his bigoted homophobic voice still be heard here in this group.

Would be nice to see the hosts take a stand that this BS is not accepted here in the group.

IMNSHO it should have been locked quickly, even before the PPR.

[William769]

91. Thanks for the alert.

And to the rest of your statement.

[skepticscott]

97. For the same reason

that a piece of the Berlin Wall was left standing. As a reminder.

[boston bean]

100. It wouldn't be deleted, just locked.

It would still be here for all to see and link back too.

[skepticscott]

104. Seems like it's very useful

for showing who else specifically in this group is a homophobic apologist for religious bigotry. That's not a bad thing, in the long run.

[boston bean]

110. well, there is a live one on the line now.

And now a Meta thread on his comments.

I'm wavering...

[Hassin Bin Sober]

132. It should be left for that very reason.

[skepticscott]

133. Exactly..

And when posters try to send private messages with opinions they're too cowardly to post in public, maybe that should be shared here too...

[boston bean]

134. I still don't think so.

One should to take into consideration the feelings of members who were innocent targets in this OP.

If it's left unlocked, seems as though other posts like it would also remain. And that hurts members of DU.

I can really see both sides, but I come down on the side of taking a stand against this. There is no need or reason to put innocent persons on the firing line, so DUers can have a flame war about it.

They need to know this is a safe place for them too. Not be used as pawns in some word/theological bigoted discussion. It's just a bridge to far, if you ask me, in the aim of transparency. A group of people are being trampled on..

[Hassin Bin Sober]

137. Ooops, meant to reply #136 to you.

[skepticscott]

140. Well, a stand HAS been taken

The OPer has been sent to bigot heaven, and in very short order. While I'm not adamantly opposed to deleting the whole mess, I certainly don't think that will reassure any of those being trampled on that such attitudes have been banished from DU or anywhere else. Maybe I'm wrong, but leaving it up may serve as a useful reminder to those who think that such attitudes are rare here, and that gay and lesbian DUers need to "get over it".

[boston bean]

142. Well, I don't think my opinion has changed.

But alas, I am only one voice. I am sure the hosts of this group will make the best decision for the group.

I am not a regular poster here, nor do I wish to be.

I avoid three places on DU, the gungeon and religion, I/P. I got dragged in here from Meta today, to lend my voice against this bigoted OP.

I just don't have the gumption to argue it out on a daily basis with people I am very unlikely to agree with on many issues.

With that, I bid you adieu! Have a great day! Really, mean it. Nice speaking with you!

[Hassin Bin Sober]

136. For the record, I would, as a gay man, be one of the victims of this bigotry.

Obviously, other LGBT Duers will have different opinions.

[humblebum]

87. Censorship of opinions that are not accepted by some does not reflect well upon DU.

There is no outright condemnation of the gay community displayed in the article. Only the experience of one woman is on display. I would truly have to question whether or not she was gay to begin with, or if she was merely playing the part.

[boston bean]

92. Really?

The posters own words in the OP:

A powerful testimony of a changed heart and mind.

Changed from what, exactly?

[boston bean]

95. Keep it up. I think a TOS event might be in your future as well. nt

[humblebum]

105. If that's the case then, let it be said that I strongly oppose censorship of alternative,

non-harmful opinions. Such as that I would never support. Any accusations of hatred being expressed in the article are nothing more than subjective interpretations.

[boston bean]

106. You don't have the right of free speech on DU to post bigoted statements.

Period, you don't. You never did. You never will.

You are not being censored and neither was LARED.

[humblebum]

112. And I think you should take that statement to heart.

[boston bean]

113. If you mean I'm bigoted against bigotry

well... I guess I'll have to live with that and take my chances.

[humblebum]

116. I am sorry, but there is no bigotry expressed in the article. In fact it describes nothing more

than the experiences of one woman.

[skepticscott]

119. So your opinion is

that the contention that gays and lesbians can be "cured" is not bigoted? Why am I not surprised?

[boston bean]

120. saying homosexuality is a sin, is not a bigoted statement?

Yes it is.

[Starry Messenger]

124. You might want to ask LARED how that served him.

Oh wait, you can't. He's banned for bigotry. Looks like you're wrong.

[okasha]

121. This «opinion» is hateful.

Neither god nor goddess nor your doctor is going to «cure» you of something that is not a sickness.

[fishwax]

143. It is not an "alternative, non-harmful" opinion to suggest that being gay is sinful

[Starry Messenger]

98. What is the gay lifestyle?

Please elaborate.

[MADem]

109. Anything like that "gay agenda" the GOP was so frightened of a few years back? nt

[Starry Messenger]

130. Usually it's code word for sexual acts the right-wing is too "delicate" to mention by name.

Nevermind that many straight people perform them too. Probably many more than the total number of gay people in the US, given the population of straight to gay.

[skepticscott]

101. "exactly" what Rosaria discovered?

And where does it say THAT? Or is this just more of your attempt to defend the article and the OP as perfectly wonderful?

[humblebum]

114. Perhaps she discovered that she was not gay. That's what I see in the article.

[boston bean]

117. That is not what she said, so perhaps you're pulling crap from your buttocks.

What she said was that it was a sin. And that is why she is now married being a good wife of the all powerful man she married.

[skepticscott]

118. I'd say more like

it's the only way you could gin up to praise an article that expresses a notion that you support (that gays and lesbians can be "cured" by religion or some other means), but that you don't have the guts to express openly.

[ScreamingMeemie]

102. Can I ask if you typed that with small heterosexual hands? Or large transgendered hands?

I think "Rosaria" is not very good at keeping homophobic stereotypes out of her essays.

[fishwax]

144. yep, that line certainly stood out

At a dinner gathering my partner and I were hosting, my transgendered friend J cornered me in the kitchen. She put her large hand over mine. "This Bible reading is changing you, Rosaria," she warned.

Yeesh.

[cali]

147. there damn well is bigotry in this op

and not recognizing that is clueless at best

[EvolveOrConvolve]

99. I vote for a lock

It will still be here to read in the future, but locking it sends a message that homophobic bullshit like this isn't tolerated in the Religion group.

[ScreamingMeemie]

103. I agree with you.

There's two threads in Meta where posters could talk about it if they wanted to.

[skepticscott]

111. Not sure I follow your thinking

It's the OP that's the homophobic bullshit, and if that's left up for all to read (and I'm not sure it shouldn't be), but locked, then it IS being tolerated, while at the same time depriving people of the opportunity to express their disapproval (or approval, in at least one unsurprising case).

[EvolveOrConvolve]

122. It's a symbolic thing

Saying, "hey, even in the wild-west environment of the Religion group, there are certain things that aren't tolerated". People have plenty of opportunity to express their disapproval or approval in Meta (and at least two have, so far).

I'd like the Religion hosts to get some courage and do the right thing, even if it pisses off some of the believers here.

[skepticscott]

127. Well, I'd say the thing to do

is either delete the whole damn thing, or leave it up with comments open. I can see some people being very unhappy to find this post up, with no chance for them to respond directly. Doing it in Meta just doesn't seem the same.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

128. I agree, but unfortunately there isn't a way to permanently delete it

That's an admin-only power.

[kestrel91316]

108. Highly offensive story about a fundie who prayed away the gay.

SHAME on you for posting this here.

[Warren Stupidity]

135. The op haz a final du sad.

Off to a better place.

[boston bean]

138. Maybe he doesn't know yet. He was on his way out the door to church.

[skepticscott]

146. well, at least someone

gave him a valentine heart before he left..

[cbayer]

145. My Train Wreck Thread - weighed in in hosts group with vote to lock this.

[muriel_volestrangler]

149. We're going to lock this

With the majority of member opinion seeming that a lock would be better, and that of Religion hosts too (though that's only the 2 of us who are around this morning). It will mean the OP gradually drops out of sight, which will achieve something. There are threads about this in Meta, if people want to discuss what the limits of posting on DU are.