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DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Topics » Religion & Spirituality » Religion (Group) » God lets babies die … so ...

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:59 PM

Star Member rug (47,305 posts)

God lets babies die … so popular atheist and artist creates humanitarian fundraiser

By D. Beeksma
On November 25, 2012 At 1:30 am

"DarkMatter 2525" is a popular atheism channel on YouTube, featuring original cartoon works depicting basic criticisms that atheists have about theism. Dark Matter has over 73,000 subscribers on YouTube and his videos have been viewed almost 10 million times.

In his latest video titled God's Priorities 2 (embedded below), the talented artist points out that while many seek superficial help from their god, such as God helping them get hooked up with a romantic partner via ChristianMingle.com, 19 infants and toddlers die every minute, suffering pointlessly while an omnipotent god does nothing to help. His video also points out that all of the prayers beseeching God to make Republican Mitt Romney win the U.S. presidential election were useless and that given the Republican platform's opposition to the Affordable Health Act, it should be noted that the United States ranks 50th in the world for infant mortality, lagging behind the countries which offer universal health care.

"They did nothing wrong," DarkMatter says of all the babies who have died, including his own child who died in 2009. "Such suffering only makes sense when we realize that nature is indifferent and that either there is no god or at least there is no personal, omnipotent god."

Viewers can watch DarkMatter create a sketch of President Obama as he discusses the commitment that he and his wife have in donating to the March of Dimes, a non-profit organization that is dedicated to improving the health of babies.

http://www.goddiscussion.com/104495/god-babies-march-of-dimes/

Why would suffering make sense if nature is indifferent?

21 replies, 859 views

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Arrow 21 replies Author Time Post
Reply God lets babies die … so popular atheist and artist creates humanitarian fundraiser (Original post)
 rug Nov 2012 OP
LineReply Nature is not indifferent if we are not.
 gtar100 Nov 2012 #1
LineLineReply EIther way, it's anthropomorphizing inanimate objects.
 rug Nov 2012 #2
LineLineLineReply It couldn't be that anthropomorphy is the correct moral/philosophical view?
 Fumesucker Nov 2012 #3
LineLineLineLineReply I think that is a mis-characterization of quantum theory.
 redgreenandblue Nov 2012 #4
LineLineLineLineReply Sorry, I don't buy that.
 rug Nov 2012 #6
LineLineLineLineLineReply Your argument is convincing
 Fumesucker Nov 2012 #10
LineLineLineReply You appear to be separating yourself from nature.
 gtar100 Nov 2012 #11
LineLineLineLineNew Reply No, but I'm not attributing my characteristics to the universe either.
 rug Nov 2012 #12
LineLineLineLineLineNew Reply Nor am I being so generic. But, to coin a phrase or two,
 gtar100 Nov 2012 #20
LineLineLineNew Reply Indifference is unique to neither humanity nor animate objects
 dmallind Nov 2012 #13
LineLineLineLineNew Reply Really? How is a rock indifferent?
 rug Nov 2012 #14
LineLineLineLineLineNew Reply How is it not?
 dmallind Nov 2012 #15
LineLineLineLineLineLineNew Reply To be indifferent, something first have to know things differ.
 rug Nov 2012 #16
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineNew Reply Utter tosh. Does a baby need to understand differential diagnosis to be asymptomatic?
 dmallind Nov 2012 #17
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineNew Reply Utter tosh? I'm not the one claiming rocks can be indifferent.
 rug Nov 2012 #18
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineNew Reply It's utter tosh to claim they can be anything BUT - and your own cites bear that out.
 dmallind Nov 2012 #19
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineNew Reply I must stop now. The lamp is glowering at me.
 rug Nov 2012 #21
LineReply So raising money for charities disgusts you?
 JKingman Nov 2012 #5
LineLineReply To the contrary, people who try to put words in my mouth disgust me.
 rug Nov 2012 #7
LineLineLineReply Then perhaps you could attempt to explain the purpose of this thread
 JKingman Nov 2012 #8
LineLineLineLineReply Two reasons.
 rug Nov 2012 #9

Response to rug (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:27 PM

Star Member gtar100 (2,532 posts)

1. Nature is not indifferent if we are not.

It's up to us to bring consciousness and compassion to this world. No amount of prayer is as effective as an act of kindness.

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Response to gtar100 (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:29 PM

Star Member rug (47,305 posts)

2. EIther way, it's anthropomorphizing inanimate objects.

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Response to rug (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:54 PM

Fumesucker (31,594 posts)

3. It couldn't be that anthropomorphy is the correct moral/philosophical view?

Quantum theory seems to indicate that the universe may be here because we are able to observe it, if that is the case then why not anthropomorphy?

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:15 PM

redgreenandblue (867 posts)

4. I think that is a mis-characterization of quantum theory.

Last edited Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:15 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

We do not in fact now what constitutes an observation in quantum theory. Whether a conscious entity is necessary is not certain. Some authors suggest that an observation is an interaction between a quantum system and a semi-classical system (a quantum system with large complexity carrying many energy quanta), in the limit that the back-reaction of the smaller system on the larger system is negligible.

Requiring consciousness as a pre-requisite for reality seems very anthropocentric.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:24 PM

Star Member rug (47,305 posts)

6. Sorry, I don't buy that.

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Response to rug (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:58 PM

Fumesucker (31,594 posts)

10. Your argument is convincing

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Response to rug (Reply #2)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:09 AM

Star Member gtar100 (2,532 posts)

11. You appear to be separating yourself from nature.

You are as much an expression of nature as anything else natural around you. Because we ourselves have compassion and a longing for justice, it is in nature. We didn't invent these things and we aren't the only species to have them. Our uniqueness is in our expression of them, not that we are the sole carriers of them. So unless you're saying that I'm anthropomorphizing people (?) I'd say you're missing my point. If we try to project these things onto mythological characters and then say they are the source, then we're looking for answers in the wrong place (I think you would agree). Our desire for justice is in our nature. That is my assertion.

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Response to gtar100 (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:16 AM

Star Member rug (47,305 posts)

12. No, but I'm not attributing my characteristics to the universe either.

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Response to rug (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 07:54 PM

Star Member gtar100 (2,532 posts)

20. Nor am I being so generic. But, to coin a phrase or two,

"You didn't build that!" and "we stand on the shoulders of giants." I'd be little more than a troglodyte (if even that much) if it weren't for all the influences around me that have grown through history from a very ancient past. Same for all of us. I didn't make "compassion" per se, or that "sense of justice" we share. That wasn't me, though I can partake in them (or not... damn that concept of freewill).

My main point is that we are not separate from nature and what we do is as much an expression of nature as is the wind. So if nature seems indifferent to our concerns, we have the power in us to change that... or be indifferent ourselves. The original post I think reflects that. It didn't take a religion to inspire this person to action, just his own sense of wanting to do good (I'm sure there's more to the story, but that's the gist of it) . I think that's pretty cool. And though nature seemed indifferent, by his very actions he has proven otherwise.

I believe we make a fundamental mistake when we separate mind from nature, though it does help us in discussing the matter. But that's hardly an original thought.

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Response to rug (Reply #2)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 04:09 PM

Star Member dmallind (10,437 posts)

13. Indifference is unique to neither humanity nor animate objects

Indifferent refers to a lack of concern, or partiality. Pretty much definitive of anything that has no ability to have concern or partiality.

How is claiming such an attribute anthropomorphism? Tautology I could accept maybe. But how can he be assigning human qualities to an object by using a word that means the lack of...a very human quality?

Is your concern perhaps instead with using nature as a singular noun? That's just a semiotic habit no more indicative of assigning an agency to the natural world than saying "it's raining" means there is an entity referred to by "it".



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Response to dmallind (Reply #13)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 06:04 PM

Star Member rug (47,305 posts)

14. Really? How is a rock indifferent?

in·dif·fer·ent


adjective

1. without interest or concern; not caring; apathetic: his indifferent attitude toward the suffering of others.

2. having no bias, prejudice, or preference; impartial; disinterested.

3. neither good nor bad in character or quality; average; routine: an indifferent specimen.

4. not particularly good, important, etc.; unremarkable; unnotable: an indifferent success; an indifferent performance.

5. of only moderate amount, extent, etc.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/indifferent

I am particularly amused by the first definition as applied to a rock.

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Response to rug (Reply #14)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:46 AM

Star Member dmallind (10,437 posts)

15. How is it not?

For a rock to not be indifferent it would have to have bias or concerns interests, from your own cite.

A rock has none of those things. Really can't see how it could be anything but indifferent myself.

The meaning used in the article is contained in the first two usages listed. Every single word applies to rocks. More germane, the words also apply to diseases, bacteria, and other causes of infant death.

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Response to dmallind (Reply #15)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:19 PM

Star Member rug (47,305 posts)

16. To be indifferent, something first have to know things differ.

Rocks don't know anything.

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Response to rug (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 02:54 PM

Star Member dmallind (10,437 posts)

17. Utter tosh. Does a baby need to understand differential diagnosis to be asymptomatic?

There is nothing implicit or explicit in any relevant meaning of the word that necessitates a choice being made to be indifferent, or the ability to not be indifferent.

Again, the very worst accusation that can be leveled at the article is the redundancy of the phrase from a naruralistic point of view.

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Response to dmallind (Reply #17)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 02:58 PM

Star Member rug (47,305 posts)

18. Utter tosh? I'm not the one claiming rocks can be indifferent.

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Response to rug (Reply #18)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:54 PM

Star Member dmallind (10,437 posts)

19. It's utter tosh to claim they can be anything BUT - and your own cites bear that out.

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Response to dmallind (Reply #19)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 08:31 PM

Star Member rug (47,305 posts)

21. I must stop now. The lamp is glowering at me.

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Response to rug (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:59 PM

JKingman (75 posts)

5. So raising money for charities disgusts you?

 

Last edited Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:00 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

I'm not sure I follow your logic here, (never have found much of any), but you are objecting to a professed atheist showing the fallacies of religious thinking in a cartoon as part of an effort to raise money for a charity?

Again, what is your objection here? Fund-raising for charities, or thinking and motivational efforts that are different from your own?

By the way, this clip was posted yesterday in another forum. Have you given credit to that post? Or are you simply offended that an atheist attempts to raise money for charity by means other than those you would choose?

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Response to JKingman (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:25 PM

Star Member rug (47,305 posts)

7. To the contrary, people who try to put words in my mouth disgust me.

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Response to rug (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:31 PM

JKingman (75 posts)

8. Then perhaps you could attempt to explain the purpose of this thread

 

Last edited Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:35 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

in plain English?

I don't see a purpose, other than the highlight a group of people who think differently than you do, and to bring public shame upon them simply for their different ways of thinking.

Your motivations are questionable, but I respect your rights to be disgusted by anything you voluntarily choose to be disgusted over.

If one did NOT see the glaring differences between a supposed "Christian" who hid his religious beliefs in order to gain the Presidency and the overt efforts of Obama to live a Christian-like life, and the intentional spoofing (by a Brit) of Obama over the Twinkies, (all to raise a few dollars for innocent children whose lives include suffering), then I'm afraid your sense of humor is a bit stunted.

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Response to JKingman (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:58 PM

Star Member rug (47,305 posts)

9. Two reasons.

First, some atheists do more than simply not believe (dare I say they have atheism plus something?). Sorry if giving that publicicity causes your knee to jerk. Why don't you donate or bid on his art once your knee settles down?

Second, his attribution of a human quality to nature struck me as odd.

And you are the last person to question anyone's motives. BTW, your capital letters are showing.

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