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Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:07 AM

Pope tells new cardinals: shun "worldly logic of power"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/25/us-pope-cardinals-idUSBRE8AO04A20121125


(Reuters) - Pope Benedict on Sunday told six prelates newly elevated to the rank of cardinal that all Catholic leaders should shun the "worldly logic of power" and stick to spreading the gospel.

The pope presided at a solemn mass in St Peter's Basilica with the six men from the United States, India, Nigeria, the Philippines, Lebanon and Colombia the day after they became cardinals at a ceremony known as a consistory.

"To be disciples of Jesus, then, means not letting ourselves be allured by the worldly logic of power, but bringing into the world the light of truth and God's love," he said.

"To you, dear and venerable brother cardinals - I think in particular of those created yesterday - is entrusted this demanding responsibility: to bear witness to the kingdom of God, to the truth."

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Reply Pope tells new cardinals: shun "worldly logic of power" (Original post)
xchrom Nov 2012 OP
edhopper Nov 2012 #1
trotsky Nov 2012 #2
rug Nov 2012 #5
edhopper Nov 2012 #7
rug Nov 2012 #8
edhopper Nov 2012 #9
rug Nov 2012 #10
edhopper Nov 2012 #12
cleanhippie Nov 2012 #26
JKingman Nov 2012 #3
rug Nov 2012 #6
JKingman Nov 2012 #11
rug Nov 2012 #14
JKingman Nov 2012 #13
rug Nov 2012 #15
JKingman Nov 2012 #16
rug Nov 2012 #17
JKingman Nov 2012 #18
rug Nov 2012 #19
JKingman Nov 2012 #20
rug Nov 2012 #21
JKingman Nov 2012 #22
rug Nov 2012 #23
JKingman Nov 2012 #24
rug Nov 2012 #25
Fortinbras Armstrong Nov 2012 #32
rrneck Nov 2012 #4
cleanhippie Nov 2012 #28
dimbear Nov 2012 #27
Golden Raisin Nov 2012 #29
edhopper Nov 2012 #30
dimbear Nov 2012 #31

Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:14 AM

1. Did he mean

The worldly power of logic?
What does the "worldly logic of power" mean? Shun worldly power?
Certainly the American Bishops and Cardinals who interjected themselves into the recent election did not shun worldly power.
But the phrase "worldly logic of power" doesn't make sense to me.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:19 AM

2. Keep in mind, evidently the "normal" logic church leaders follow...

is to cover up the crimes of pedophile priests, and transfer them to new parishes where they have clean slates and access to fresh victims.

"Worldly" logic would generally turn child rapists over to civil authorities, I suppose.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:49 PM

5. It means the logical conclusion of the world is to seek power.

Shunning it is a good idea. A bit late but a noble goal.

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Response to rug (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:10 PM

7. Is that a traditional Catholic theme

or your interpretation of what he meant?

I would certainly argue that for many, believers and non believers, the logical conclusion of the world (and I assume it is meant the material world) is to gain power.
I find that rather insulting and condescending.

I understand you are referring to his words, not making this statement yourself.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:23 PM

8. Mark 8:36

"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?"

It's a theme I've heard from childhood.

The contrast is between seeking power, i.e., control, dominion, aggrandizement, etc., and meeting shared needs.

Acts 2:44-47

44 And all they that believed, were together, and had all things common.

45 Their possessions and goods they sold, and divided them to all, according as every one had need.

46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart;

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord increased daily together such as should be saved.


It's a theme I do not find insulting and condescending.

It's also a theme that has divide the church for two millennia.

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Response to rug (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:34 PM

9. I understand that idea

of not seeking only wealth and there are other ,more human, things that make life worthwhile.

But I don't see where it says that the logical conclusion to the material world is seeking power. That without the Christian God (from the Pope's perspective) all people would do is seek power.

The condescension is from saying that an atheist or materialist would logically conclude that power is what should be ultimately attained and would not also seek goodness and helping others.

UIf he is saying by "The Wordly Logic of Power" that to those who only live in the natural world that their logical goal in life will be to seek power is insulting and condescending.

The history of the Church shows that those heading religious institutions are much more likely to follow that path.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:39 PM

10. The first line I heard in Property class was this:

"Property is the power to exclude."

I think that's what he's getting at. The power to place one's own needs over that of another's. He was speaking to the new Cardinals and reminding them, in the midst of all the pomp of their elevation, that this is not about seeking power. It was a warning to thethem. I don't think he had atheists, materialists, or even laity in mind. It was a very pointed remark.

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Response to rug (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:19 PM

12. That makes more sense

the rest of the stuff I was inferring from your explanation of that quote.
So all I will say is that it was poorly worded and muddled in meaning. Semantically it is rather badly phrased.

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Response to rug (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:44 PM

26. "Property is the power to exclude."

Wow, how insightful that is. I like it.


And considering just how much property the RCC actually has, that translates into a lot of power to exclude. Which they do. A lot.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:09 AM

3. "to bear witness to the kingdom of God"

 

One might observe: to be a witness to an imaginary entity for which there is no substantive nor credible evidence, that's sure "logical"!

As as another has said, "the worldly logic of power" makes little to no semantic sense. Is power something that only has a worldly logic? Is power something with which the RCC has no relationship in this world? THAT would be news to the hundreds of millions who follow what the Pope says!

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Response to JKingman (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:51 PM

6. It is illogical to use physical proofs as a gauge to measure metaphysics.

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Response to rug (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 01:51 PM

11. Perhaps your definition of "metaphysics" differs from others

 

Last edited Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:31 PM - Edit history (2)

Metaphysics is a traditional branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world, although the term is not easily defined. Traditionally, metaphysics attempts to answer two basic questions in the broadest possible terms:

What is there?
What is it like? 


The word ‘metaphysics’ is notoriously hard to define. Twentieth-century coinages like ‘meta-language’ and ‘metaphilosophy’ encourage the impression that metaphysics is a study that somehow “goes beyond” physics, a study devoted to matters that transcend the mundane concerns of Newton and Einstein and Heisenberg. This impression is mistaken.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/metaphysics/

What is it (that is, whatever it is that there is) like?


op. cit.

Perhaps, instead of "metaphysics" you meant to say "religious beliefs", which are, by definition, something a human mind has belief in, not necessarily something that exists. Belief in Santa Claus "exists", so merits, therefore, a note in the history of humankind and ongoing philosopical, "metaphysical" reality, but no such evidence of the existence of a real Santa Claus, one that conforms to the beliefs of many human children, no such evidence has yet been found. We can say that there is a "metaphysical" existence of the concept of a Santa Claus, (or a "kingdom of God"), but we can go no further in proof of such an actual reality without "evidence", (wishful thinking within the minds of disillusioned seven-year-olds, notwithstanding).

Your post, in reply to mine, was an exceptionally wonderful and exquisitely fanciful example of the "special pleadings" argument, by the way! Congratulations!

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Response to JKingman (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:50 PM

14. You should have continued your excerpt.

The word ‘metaphysics’ is derived from a collective title of the fourteen books by Aristotle that we currently think of as making up “Aristotle's Metaphysics.” Aristotle himself did not know the word. (He had four names for the branch of philosophy that is the subject-matter of Metaphysics: ‘first philosophy’, ‘first science’, ‘wisdom’, and ‘theology’.)


Apply your measure of "substantive or credible evidence" to the subjects of wisdom and theology, to name only two.

Invoking a straw man creates a straw man, not evidence of special pleading. You do realize there is a difference betwen metaphysics and religious belief, don't you?

So, how are you enjoying your return? You've made it 11 days so far. Congratulations! (Do I owe you a royalty on the exclamation point?)

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Response to rug (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:40 PM

13. A couple hours, I guess someone has

 

abandoned this thread, decided that they no longer have anything other than "special pleadings" to offer, and found out that those "special pleadings" were rather silly, when confronted by the reality of what "metaphysics" is, and what "logic" is.

It is illogical to use physical proofs as a gauge to measure metaphysics.


That would make "metaphysics" rather a study of nothing at all.

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Response to JKingman (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:52 PM

15. It is illogical to guess.

You'll only embarass yourself.

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Response to rug (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:55 PM

16. Somehow, I see

 

only more personal threats, (against the TOS) when people get their thoughts exposed by me.

Should I feel somehow threatened for bringing actual links to writings of major philosophical thinkers into the debate?

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Response to JKingman (Reply #16)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:59 PM

17. By all means send a PM to the administrators.

It will help do an IP check.

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Response to rug (Reply #17)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:15 PM

18. I don't deal with threats to free speech well

 

I express my opinions, you express yours. You are free to do whatever you wish, as am I.

Now on to the nonsense,

just don't threaten me, please. I never threaten anyone!

My thoughts, however, somehow you found threatening?

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Response to JKingman (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:22 PM

19. Me either. Particularly when someone takes mine and tries to repackage it.

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Response to rug (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:28 PM

20. Please tell us where someone, (other than you, yourself) did that!

 

I'm certainly not seeing it.

Back to the topic of this thread: what exactly does "shun the logic of worldly power" mean?

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Response to JKingman (Reply #20)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:34 PM

21. Gladly. First tell me who you all are.

MarkCharles? Joseph 8th? Daaron? So many to list.

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Response to rug (Reply #21)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:41 PM

22. Sorry, not familiar with any of those writers

 

Perhaps you can list a few of their books, I might like to read them.

But how may times have I observed you over the past 2 months since I discovered DU that I found you contradicting yourself?

I finally decided that there are about 3 or 4 of you who continually modify your views and profess to be Christian believers but run away when confronted by your own self-contradictions, I just had to ask you what you really believe.

I might think folks like you are Romney supporters, but I know that there's all sorts of misinformed and misdirected Democrats out there. I just wonder why you never answer questions directly when asked. I have asked about 10 in two or three days, all of which get evasion, deflection, never an answer.

Now, who are those people you mentioned and what have they published?

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Response to JKingman (Reply #22)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:45 PM

23. Why they're all right at this site:

http://bannedatheists.us/

It's a great site if you like puppet shows.

Cute story bro about discovering DU.

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Response to rug (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:53 PM

24. I think I might enjoy this IGNORE feature

 

here.

Never a direct answer, no adult conversation, fraudulent links.

I think we have had our last discussion, thanks but no thanks.

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Response to JKingman (Reply #24)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:54 PM

25. There is a fraud but it's not the link.

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Response to JKingman (Reply #18)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 10:00 AM

32. No, you just spout anti-religious bigotry

And whine when someone takes you to task about it. I realize that, in DU, saying "this statement is bigoted" is considered to be worse than the bigoted statement -- at least when it comes to religion -- but I suppose that is a cross we believers have to carry.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:30 AM

4. Shun it unless there's a lot of prime real estate involved. nt

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Response to rrneck (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:02 PM

28. TAX-FREE prime real estate...

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:39 PM

27. I spent a little time yesterday trying to check whether these were more of the usual rightwingers.

Didn't find much googletrail.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:33 PM

29. How about the Pope moves out

of his Palazzo in Vatican City and into a humble studio apartment in a slum section of Rome. Let the shunning of wordly logic of power start at the top.

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Response to Golden Raisin (Reply #29)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:23 AM

30. I spent a week in a humble studio apt in Rome.

It was wonderful!

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:13 PM

31. Good advice. Never know when another fricking Garibaldi is going to show up. n/t

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