Sun Nov 4, 2012, 05:13 PM

uriel1972 (854 posts)

Just wondering,

If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, wouldn't that mean that the World is just the way They want it. And if this is so what does it say about Them?

34 replies, 1507 views

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34 replies	Author	Time	Post
Just wondering, (Original post)	uriel1972	Nov 2012	OP
What do you think?	cbayer	Nov 2012	#1
I believe that if injustice exists in the world	uriel1972	Nov 2012	#5
So you would expect perfection, an Eden, so to speak, from a creator?	cbayer	Nov 2012	#6
Not neccessarily.	uriel1972	Nov 2012	#8
Your reasoning only makes sense if you assume that a god could control	cbayer	Nov 2012	#9
The question is at the very heart of my atheism	uriel1972	Nov 2012	#12
The question is at the heart of your atheism?	cbayer	Nov 2012	#13
I don't agree	uriel1972	Nov 2012	#18
I feel that you are sincere here and not just baiting, which is refreshing.	cbayer	Nov 2012	#23
Thankyou	uriel1972	Nov 2012	#27
Your approach makes all the difference in how the thread is going,	cbayer	Nov 2012	#33
Would you prefer to have a choice to do good or to have no choice?	rug	Nov 2012	#19
I prefer to do good	uriel1972	Nov 2012	#21
So do I but the question is, would you like to have a say in the matter.	rug	Nov 2012	#24
I am who I am and I can't escape that	uriel1972	Nov 2012	#25
The tragedy is that it's not great evil on a whim but small evils hourly.	rug	Nov 2012	#26
Free will is at the heart of the question you asked.	okasha	Nov 2012	#32
I would reject that god ............	Angry Dragon	Nov 2012	#2
This question	tbennett76	Nov 2012	#3
Believing in a god	Control-Z	Nov 2012	#4
Many do.	mr blur	Nov 2012	#7
No.	Control-Z	Nov 2012	#16
Hates and abuses you or can not/does not intervene when others hate/abuse?	cbayer	Nov 2012	#10
Is that your answer	Control-Z	Nov 2012	#14
My answer to genocide and war? Not at all.	cbayer	Nov 2012	#15
You know how	Control-Z	Nov 2012	#17
I have never made such an argument. I have never even made an argument	cbayer	Nov 2012	#22
This right here:	Control-Z	Nov 2012	#28
I would let you have the last word, but just wanted to point out that I don't	cbayer	Nov 2012	#29
God - if he existed - would be an ASSHOLE	Taverner	Nov 2012	#34
No	rug	Nov 2012	#11
What I get about the Chistian god	Laochtine	Nov 2012	#20
Arguments about free will when talking about whether god is evil or not are stupid.	Evoman	Nov 2012	#30
May I suggest this as a starting point	BillStein	Nov 2012	#31

Response to uriel1972 (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 05:13 PM

cbayer (119,997 posts)

1. What do you think?

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Response to cbayer (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 05:24 PM

uriel1972 (854 posts)

5. I believe that if injustice exists in the world

Then if there was a creator, they have serious questions to answer

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 05:38 PM

cbayer (119,997 posts)

6. So you would expect perfection, an Eden, so to speak, from a creator?

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Response to cbayer (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 05:46 PM

uriel1972 (854 posts)

8. Not neccessarily.

I don't expect a creator to be 'Good'. However from a 'Good', all-powerful and all-knowing creator I would not expect to suffer for someone elses crimes.

As to perfection, are you saying that a perfect being deliberatley created an imperfect world for it's own reasons? Doesn't that mean that the results of that imperfection, the unjust suffering are Their desire?

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 05:52 PM

cbayer (119,997 posts)

9. Your reasoning only makes sense if you assume that a god could control

all the thoughts and deeds of those it created.

If there were a god, perhaps it created what it hoped would be a perfect world and included some free will for its inhabitants.

I guess that might make it something other than all-powerful or perhaps that might have been the intent.

At any rate, Is this a question you are truly interested in or one meant to trip up theists in some way?

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Response to cbayer (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 06:32 PM

uriel1972 (854 posts)

12. The question is at the very heart of my atheism

Even if there were evidence for a diety, the amount of injustice brings up the question of the nature of that diety. Are they perfect, are they benevolent, are they alone?

And as for theists, this is a question I believe they should be asking themselves as well, before they blindly throw their support behind a faith. I would like them to think about the logical consequences of statements such as 'God is good', 'God is love' or even the idea that God is all-powerful and all-knowing.

I guess I'm something of a Socratic gadfly in nature.

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 06:44 PM

cbayer (119,997 posts)

13. The question is at the heart of your atheism?

How can you have questions about something you don't believe in?

I fear that this question really has nothing to do with you or what you do or do not believe, and much to do with what you think others should or should not believe.

It may be a bit condescending to tell theists what you think they should ask themselves before they "blindly throw their support behind a faith".

But in the spirit of the Socratic argument, is there any experience you could have or any information given to you that would cause you to rethink your atheism?

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Response to cbayer (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 06:56 PM

uriel1972 (854 posts)

18. I don't agree

That I don't believe now doesn't mean I never believed.

That 'I would like' does not mean believers 'must', just that I would like them to.

'Blindly' may have been a bit harsh, that's true.

I don't know, that's the thing. I guess, I will know it when I see it.

Even if there were evidence for a diety I may still remain an athiest, depending on the nature of the diety. Belief does not necessarily mean worship. 'Athiesm' = 'without god'

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 07:15 PM

cbayer (119,997 posts)

23. I feel that you are sincere here and not just baiting, which is refreshing.

These are tough questions and ones I think all who do not profess to know the truth struggle with at times.

It is those that are absolutely convinced either way that never ask these questions, or do not ask them honestly.

I never thought of theism or atheism being tied in with worship, just with belief.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 07:35 PM

uriel1972 (854 posts)

27. Thankyou

I like to sk confronting questions, but prefer not to be a confrontational person.

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #27)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 01:01 PM

cbayer (119,997 posts)

33. Your approach makes all the difference in how the thread is going,

which is pretty well, imo.

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 07:02 PM

rug (47,216 posts)

19. Would you prefer to have a choice to do good or to have no choice?

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Response to rug (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 07:08 PM

uriel1972 (854 posts)

21. I prefer to do good

but that's because of who I am and all the events that have brought me to this point. I don't believe in free will, but that's another argument.

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #21)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 07:19 PM

rug (47,216 posts)

24. So do I but the question is, would you like to have a say in the matter.

The question of free will is inescapable . . . so to speak.

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Response to rug (Reply #24)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 07:24 PM

uriel1972 (854 posts)

25. I am who I am and I can't escape that

Free will, I don't know if I want that to be honest. I would rather not have the inherent ability to do great evil on a whim.

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 07:27 PM

rug (47,216 posts)

26. The tragedy is that it's not great evil on a whim but small evils hourly.

They add up, multiplied by billions.

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #21)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 12:49 PM

okasha (3,829 posts)

32. Free will is at the heart of the question you asked.

If you don't believe in free will, then you don't believe one can choose between good and evil. You're basically a Calvinist without a god.

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Response to uriel1972 (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 05:14 PM

Angry Dragon (24,073 posts)

2. I would reject that god ............

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Response to uriel1972 (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 05:22 PM

tbennett76 (223 posts)

3. This question

is why I enjoy booze.

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Response to uriel1972 (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 05:22 PM

Control-Z (8,264 posts)

4. Believing in a god

would require me to believe in something that hates and abuses not only me but countless others far worse. Who would even want to believe in such a monster?

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Response to Control-Z (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 05:45 PM

mr blur (5,295 posts)

7. Many do.

Mysterious ways, you know.

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Response to mr blur (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 06:50 PM

Control-Z (8,264 posts)

16. No.

I don't know anything about mysterious ways. Though, more than a few times I've heard that excuse for the way ones god hasn't come through.

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Response to Control-Z (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 05:53 PM

cbayer (119,997 posts)

10. Hates and abuses you or can not/does not intervene when others hate/abuse?

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Response to cbayer (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 06:44 PM

Control-Z (8,264 posts)

14. Is that your answer

to genocide and war? God doesn't intervene, you poor schmucks. Please?

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Response to Control-Z (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 06:49 PM

cbayer (119,997 posts)

15. My answer to genocide and war? Not at all.

I think it is within the scope of responsibility of humans to stop genocide and war. We cause it and we should fix it. Conceding that to an unknown or unknowable deity is just shirking that responsibility.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 06:56 PM

Control-Z (8,264 posts)

17. You know how

ridiculous your argument is. Everything good is gawd's doing. Everything bad is man's (in the name of the wrong god). Please stop.

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Response to Control-Z (Reply #17)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 07:11 PM

cbayer (119,997 posts)

22. I have never made such an argument. I have never even made an argument

for the existence of a god or gods.

Not sure why I would need to stop, but feel free to disengage at any point.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #22)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 08:09 PM

Control-Z (8,264 posts)

28. This right here:

"Hates and abuses you or can not/does not intervene when others hate/abuse?"

Call it what you will but anyone reading it knows what you were insinuating.

Bu-bye!

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Response to Control-Z (Reply #28)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 08:29 PM

cbayer (119,997 posts)

29. I would let you have the last word, but just wanted to point out that I don't

think you know me well enough to know what I was insinuating. Hell, I don't even know what you might think I was insinuating.

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Response to Control-Z (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 05:12 PM

Taverner (53,270 posts)

34. God - if he existed - would be an ASSHOLE

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Response to uriel1972 (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 06:10 PM

rug (47,216 posts)

11. No

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Response to uriel1972 (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 07:07 PM

Laochtine (307 posts)

20. What I get about the Chistian god

Although there are as many versions as there are believers in it is god omnipotent,
all knowing and all loving except when it doesn't suit he/she/ghostie.
Kinda like Mittens only more expansive. Freewill is a great cop out not
to stop tragedy, but if my family was saved from a natural disaster it was god's will.
And on a personal note if I can't change god's mind (all knowing) why should I pray?
To make myself feel better? BTW other gods vary

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Response to uriel1972 (Original post)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 01:15 AM

Evoman (7,939 posts)

30. Arguments about free will when talking about whether god is evil or not are stupid.

It's not other peoples free will that gave me cancer.

That was inherent in the "creation".

If there was no creator or the creator was evil, it makes sense I could get cancer at 32.

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Response to uriel1972 (Original post)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 10:57 AM

BillStein (614 posts)

31. May I suggest this as a starting point

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy>

"A theodicy is a response to the evidential problem of evil, the challenge that the occurrence of evil in the world counts as evidence against the existence of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent deity. Theodicies attempt to justify the existence of God in light of evil."

an excellent summary of the problem and leading philoisophers.

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