Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

[Greatest I am]

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.americamagazine.org/content/ … le_id=1205

http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c … F680C1DBEB

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

[Shadowflash]

1. Depends on the definition of 'evil'

I don't think I've done 'evil'. I've never killed anybody, tortured animals or slept with anybody's wife, but if your definition of 'evil' is a 'biblical evil' than I'm guilty as charged.

I've worn two different fabrics at the same time, I loves me some bacon, I've never stoned my daughter for being belligerent to me, when someone asked me if the outfit she was wearing made her look fat, I lied and said 'no', and I've used the lord's name in vein.

So, I guess it boils down to the definition of 'evil'.

[Greatest I am]

2. Undestood but you will do evil again.

You cannot help ip if you are an evolving creature. And you are.

Evil in cases of competition is from the loser's POV of the competition. From evolution's and mankind's view, it is all good as the species does not go extinct.

Do your best to follow the logic trail.

In the real world, we all compete for resources.
To survive, you must work and finding that work involves competing for it.

The last time you competed for a job let's say. You may have won but created a loser of the one who did not get the work. He would see evil in this because if he has a long string of loses and cannot find someone to beat out for a job, he will eventually die.

You could have done the empathic or kind generous thing and let him win, but then you would be the loser and if you continued to do this you would be the one to eventually die.

You have to compete and win and create a loser and thus do evil from his POV or you will die. You like all who want to survive must do evil in this sense.

This seems to make it impossible for you and all of us to live our lives without stepping on another toes and doing evil.

See it?

Regards
DL

[atreides1]

3. Good points

But is it evil to kill in self defense, is sleeping with anybody's wife really evil or just bad judgement...as for torturing animals that is evil.

And in the Bible many of the things you have stated are often called abominations, now the English traslation of that word means sinful, vile, loathsome, wicked, or hateful.

The Biblical words usually translated as "abomination" do not always convey the same sense of moral exceptionalism as the English term does today, as it often may signify that which is forbidden or unclean according to the religion. Linguistically in this case, it may be closer in meaning to the Polynesian term taboo or tapu, signifying that which is forbidden, and should not be eaten, and or not touched, and which sometimes was a capital crime.

So you see you really haven't done anything "evil", even in biblical terms...

[Greatest I am]

6. We all do evil

atreides

I agree that one would need to be quite the fool to look at a 3,000 year old documents whose laws have already been rejected by thinking men, for modern laws or sins.

As to my doing evil or you doing it for that matter, we can only say we did not if we have never competed and won. I have won and created a victim to my better competing skills. So have you if you are an evolving creature.
To evolution what happened to the victim was all good as evolution requires that the less fit die out so that the fittest can continue.

Regards
DL

[struggle4progress]

4. Forgive Our Sins As We Forgive

[Greatest I am]

7. Forgiven by whom?

The victim of sin has first dibs on forgiving the infraction against him.

God has no place in this and if he usurps the privilege of forgiving then he is himself sinning against the victim.

Regards
DL

[dmallind]

5. To me a deity here is irrelevant. I would answer the same as a believer as I do here

The point is not to NOT do "evil", or cause harm from a teleological perspective. Even Jesus as written caused harm to his persecuted followers, to the moneychangers in the temple etc.

The idea is to do more good or create more benefit overall from a universalized calculus, and to seek to minimize or redress the evil/harm wherever possible, and, from either others or from God, seek forgiveness.

[Greatest I am]

8. Yes. Irrelevant is what a deity is.

For my thoughts on forgiveness, please see the post just above.

You are right in that we cannot help but do evil to others and should try to minimize the damage. Most times we will not be able to do so.

Regards
DL