Religion
Related: About this forumAre Progressives Harming the Cause by Attacking Organized Religion and People of Faith?
A loyal AlterNet reader raises key questions about the role of faith and religion in the battle for social change.
AlterNet / ByJames Rohrer
July 21, 2012 - Editor's Note: A short time ago, AlterNet received a very thoughtful letter from one of our readers. Professor James Rohrer wrote that while he was a long-time loyal AlterNet reader, he was concerned about our coverage of faith and religion. His complaint was that AlterNet too frequently portrays religion as the domain of right-wing fundamentalism and carries an overall anti-religious editorial tilt. Rohrer argued this has the effect of alienating millions of our readers who are progressively inclined. He challenged us to consider whether this approach stands in the way of building the unity we need to achieve the broad social change that the vast majority of Americans want.
"One would never know from AlterNet that there are today significant numbers of evangelical Christians who work for peace and justice, such as the Christian Peacemaker Teams who embed themselves as witnesses for peace in the midst of war zones," Rohrer wrote to us. "One would never know that much of the history of socialism in America has been intertwined with religion. One would never know that many brilliant philosophers, scientists, artists, and scholars in virtually every field of research are also people who have a deep personal faith in some traditional religion."
Rohrer's letter, which echoed concerns we receive from time to time from colleagues and readers, prompted an extensive internal conversation, and we concluded that something has to change. In that spirit, we asked Prof. Rohrer to write an article about his thoughts on the matter, published below. Over the coming weeks we will be relaunching our Belief section, and publishing a wider array of coverage on faith and religion and its role in daily life and politics. (We have already started down this path with Vision editor Sara Robinson's recent article, "Six Reasons We Can't Change the Future Without Progressive Religion."
***
My brother and I took divergent spiritual paths at an early age. More than half a century ago my brother, now a high-school science teacher and a militant atheist, mortified my mother when he told a sweetly smiling Sunday School teacher that he planned to return the following week to break every damned window in this place. My mother was not shocked by his lack of pietyshe was a feminist with Unitarian Universalist leanings and had left orthodox Christianity behind years earlier but by his rudeness. In truth we rarely ever attended church because my mother refused to sanction patriarchal religion and my dad hated to worship alone. But mom was gracious, even to people that she disagreed with in matters of religion and politics.
http://www.alternet.org/belief/156384/are_progressives_harming_the_cause_by_attacking_organized_religion_and_people_of_faith/
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)was their start down the path, it's a pretty shitty path. And the illustrious Professor Rohrer might have show better awareness of some of the issues involved by not tossing in the meaningless crap term "militant atheist" in his first paragraph.
rug
(82,333 posts)There are far more descriptive terms he can use.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)I'm sure what he wrote is a perfectly accurate representation of his attitude towards, and understanding of, atheists and atheism.
After all he is a Professor, and a Very Serious Person Writing About Religion.
rug
(82,333 posts)But there are so many better terms to use to describe this attitude.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)that this accurately expresses his understanding, being deeply flawed as it is.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)And FWIW, someone who says they are going "to break every damned window in this place" could reasonably be called militant.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)in what atheist sacred text there is an admonition "to break every damned window in this place"? How is this a "militant" form of not believing in god?
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)by asking for the extension of equal rights, against the wishes of many American christian sects?
rug
(82,333 posts)Stop hiding behind minorities who have experienced - and fought - far greater discrimination than you.
Make your own case, if you can, because you're not doing a very good job of it.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)that a "case" needs to be made for everyone being afforded equal rights and treatment. Or that a certain level of discrimination has to be reached before such fundamental protections under the law should kick in.
Not surprising. At all.
rug
(82,333 posts)That's what happens when you think in an echo chamber.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)to make a case, I DO know what you think. Unless you're just a disingenuous shit-stirrer. Your choice.
And since you've quickly reached your usual basement of snark and dishonesty, rounds are over.
rug
(82,333 posts)But I do know you fail to see the irony of calling someone else "a disingenuous shit-stirrer."
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)Telling atheists to shut the fuck up = okay; telling LGBTers to shut the fuck up = not okay.
rug
(82,333 posts)EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)An intellectual conclusion, presently held, is far different from sexual orientation, gender or race.
And it's creepy to be a parasite on someone else's discrimination.
Fight your own fight.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)One CHOOSES to believe in a religion (except when its forced onto them as children).
The false equivalency is yours.
rug
(82,333 posts)It was inexorable.
cordelia
(2,174 posts)I see.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Apparently, you are seeing whatever it is you want to see, because I made no such comment. Your post is dishonest nonsense.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)I made no claim about discrimination one way or the other; it was you that leapt to that particular conclusion.
My point was: if atheists are hindering the Progressive cause because they piss off believers, then what does the LGBT movement do to the cause? Taking the OP's point and drawing it to its eventual and logical conclusion says that if a particular segment of the Progressive community causes offense to conservatives, then that group should be silenced. If that's the case, then 99% of the Progressive movement should just sit down and shut up, because most of us offend conservatives whether it's atheist/freethinker groups, the LGBT community, environmentalists, OWS'ers, anti-corporatists, pro-choice advocates, labor unions, liberal christians, etc., etc., etc.
rug
(82,333 posts)You've reached a logical conclusion only if you leap.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)Why is that?
rug
(82,333 posts)cordelia
(2,174 posts)EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)"Taking the OP's point and drawing it to its eventual and logical conclusion says that if a particular segment of the Progressive community causes offense to conservatives, then that group should be silenced."
Here, I'll copy and paste it for you again:
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)Saying that you disagree doesn't make it wrong. I know in rug-underground that might be how it is, but this is Democratic Underground, at least last I checked.
Simply put, I'm not going to sit down and shut the fuck up just because some believers are offended by my presence.
rug
(82,333 posts)What I am telling you is, don't make the shit up.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)(And not from you, but from the author of the piece in the OP)
I just think it sets a bad precedent.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)All you'll get is more and more ways to write "I know you are but what am I?"
zazen
(2,978 posts)and is perplexed as to why so many people appear to be obsessed with it.
Church institutional practices that discriminate or promote discrimination are one thing, but why is it my business how someone makes meaning of their life and tries to come to terms with a human's finite existence in an apparently infinite, overwhelmingly inexplicable world?
There are far more important problems. Beyond that, I've seen faith fuel amazing movements against oppression and transform lives far more than the fundamental oppositional stance of the atheism I've encountered.
The militant atheists I've read appear to be stuck in perpetual adolescence. Yes, I was an arrogant asshole too at 16, yelling back at the pit preachers at Carolina, and a member of the "fellowship of believers in pagans and other unholy gods." And then life kicked me around a whole lot more and told me to shut the hell up.
Read Chris Hedges or Bob Jensen or the many activists today who draw upon a deep faith in a power greater than themselves as they engage in radical critique and advocacy for social justice.
Sorry, but I just don't get any sense of hope or optimism from the atheists I've read--just perpetual self-pity and a fixation with picking fights. I can just picture them stomping their feet at Martin Luther King for his "silly" belief in God.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)results in certain people being denied equal rights and protection under the law, when it demands that mythological nonsense be taught as science, when it advocates egregious violations of the Constitution, when it attempt to impose its own rules and dictates on everyone, through law and government fiat, exactly what WOULD be an appropriate response in your world?
Faith fuels "amazing movements" of oppression and violence as well, or have you closed your eyes and ears to those like so many others here? And do you not even realize how silly the false equivalency you're painting between religion and atheism is? Unlike Christianity or other religions, atheism is only a very small slice of ones worldview and not an overarching philosophy of life, the universe and everything. Trying to compare the two in that sense, though very common among lovers of theism like Hedges, is simply misguided. Many Christians believe that their lives should be wholly centered around God and his son Jesus Christ, and that everything they think and do should be in accordance with His divine Word, or at least with their interpretation of it (which can obviously vary between denominations/groups/sects and even within them to a lesser extent). Many adherents of other religions have similar convictions. But an atheistic worldview says nothing about how you should live your life or treat other people, any more than preferring butter to margarine or being an advocate of vinyl records over CDs does, and it doesn't need to in order to justify itself. The only relevant issue is whether having an atheistic worldview precludes discovering and practicing moral virtues or makes it less likely that someone will do so, and I have yet to see evidence to that effect. Whether atheists or atheism gives you "hope or optimism" is frankly irrelevant. People who can only be hopeful or optimistic by deluding themselves, or who can only do good because they believe it's "god's will" offer nothing better.
And if you've been cowed into keeping your mouth shut, that's your business. The rest of us won't take that as a reason to apologize for doing otherwise.
Evoman
(8,040 posts)I'd like to kindly tell him to fuck off. I'm going to continue saying and doing whatever I want, no matter how much some bum hurt christian wants me to do otherwise. If my ideas and thoughts cause you to run to the other party, then how committed to progressive politics are you?
You're telling him to fuck off
because
you think he's telling you to shut up?
I see a problem there.
Evoman
(8,040 posts)I just think he is a stupid idiot, and "fuck off" is my special way of sharing my feelings with the rest of the class.
You calling me a hypocrite, bud?
rug
(82,333 posts)Nobody told you to shut up.
Evoman
(8,040 posts)Shut up means don't talk. Fuck off means don't talk to me.
rug
(82,333 posts)Fuck off = Write, say and do whatever the hell you want. There are lots of morons who want to listen to your (the OPs) bullshit. Be my guest.... I don't want to, so fuck off.
Shut up = Don't say whats on your mind because it will: hurt the progressive cause, cause people to vote conservative, make me look like a religious, empty headed idiot. There are lots of morons and I don't want them listen to your awesomeness. Please don't make your views public.
Christ, your fucking exhausting Rug. It's a good thing I find you so fun.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)care which Religion one follows, if any at all.
But I draw the line when the Religious attempt to insert their religious dogma into any meaningful area of my life, or if they use their religion, to set themselves above, or in control, of others.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)the Jews were troubled by the small upstart group, and their claims. The Jews expelled them. They denied them the rights first to speak in synagogues, then second to attend synagogues........... because they were troublemakers.
The Jews went further. They agreed amongst themselves that scriptural purity should not be polluted by the upstart Christian texts. They closed off the increase in scripture, declaring a canon, the collection the Christians would come to deride as the Old Testament.
The Christians did not, in the fulness of time, take this well. Over time the Christians became less and less Jewish, more and more pagan. Eventually resentment against their parent stock became violent and grim.
Originally practically identical, practically and often actually brothers, they became enemies.
The separation of the Jews and the Muslims began like this:..............The separation of the Catholics and the Protestants began like this:............
How would you like the separation of the liberals and the atheists to begin?