Religion
Related: About this forumLying for the Lord - Relevant to Romney's campaign?
As stillwaiting pointed out in this thread --> http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002685641#post83
"Lying for the Lord" is a Mormon doctrine.
Personally, I have absolutely no idea who the hell Mitt Romney is, and I honestly don't know how any Americans could with his track record, and THAT should disqualify him from the Presidency.
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord
This seems like a topic needing some hashing. Hope I posted in the right place.
edcantor
(325 posts)repressive of all the faiths when it comes to the rights of the LGBT community, and to the general freedoms and rights of young Mormons especially.
But this is not unique to Mormonism. Several Christian sects and some Jewish and, of course, many Muslims think their own religious freedom is not at all inconsistent with limiting the rights of their own followers or of millions of other American citizens.
Romney just conveniently lies about or refuses to remember anything which might be inconsistent in his background or his strong faith, as well as what actions the LDS church took to limit the rights of Californian citizens in Prop H8.
Lying is a habit Romney has learned well, probably much of it he learned from his faith.
As the second linked article points out:
Just another reason why any thought of having Romney elected President is a very frightening prospect.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)daaron
(763 posts)To answer cbayer's question - sure, I'm asking questions about these things. I'm certainly not one to shrink from a doctrinal debate, if I think I have an informed opinion. Often however in public forums it's useful to find out where others stand on various issues, so that a well-formed discussion can occur, rather than an inconsequential flame war.
ETA: There are certainly any number of Christian sects - Christian Identity springs to mind - which adhere to similar doctrines. I have even encountered New Agers positing that aliens placed each race on its own continent. All of these religious justifications for racism are abhorrent to modern Western social norms, and should be repudiated piecemeal.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)"It's not just a Mormon doctrine, and is another aspect of religion in American that is relevant to this election."
To be honest, I sometimes have trouble following you, so I may have read this wrong. But the way I read was that "Lying for the Lord" was an aspect of religion in America not unique to Mormon doctrine, and wasn't sure what you meant by that.
daaron
(763 posts)Wasn't sure exactly what you were referring to before.
Technically, "Lying for the Lord" is specifically a Mormon doctrine, but the concept itself is echoed in similar doctrines in other sects and cults - for instance the "Fellowship" (Family) is known to advocate a similar doctrine. Then, too, any fraternal religious order based on secrecy, from the Penitentes (Brotherhood of Jesus Christ, one of the oldest such orders in existence) to Opus Dei relies on lying to maintain coherence. Mormonism, historically influenced by Freemasonry, is merely an exemplar of the phenomenon.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)and not to the religions that most people identify with, then?
daaron
(763 posts)As far as I know, Mormonism is the only mainstreamish religion with such a doctrine. What I'm wondering in the OP is whether or not y'all think the fact that this doctrine exists is politically relevant - especially in light of the additional Mormon doctrine that prophesies that Mormonism will take over America by electing a High Priest to POTUS?
Combine these two - is there any reason to worry that Romney might actually be Lying for the Lord in order to become POTUS so that he will have fulfilled the prophecy? It's far out, I know - but then so are many Mormon doctrines. Do we take it seriously or dismiss it - or something betwixt?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I have worked in highly politicized trade organizations that had Mormons in positions of authority.
My experiences with them were very positive. I could have been missing it, but it seemed to me that they were scrupulous about keeping their religion out of their politics.
And I'm not much into conspiracy theories, as I basically think most humans and human organizations are too inept to actually carry out these kinds of *mega-plans*.
My bottom link, I guess, is that it is worth being educated and aware about Mormonism and how it might effect Mormons in elected leadership positions, but I am with the Obama team in thinking we should not make it an issue at all.
Those who opposed Obama used it, and it was ugly. I prefer the high road here.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Mormons are about the worst at separating their religion and their politics:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home2/53110048-183/mormons-utah-lds-party.html.csp
Their religion is about as strong an influence on their political behavior as it gets. Blatant sexism is only one facet.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)Romans 3 7
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"
Paul showing his actual cards..............
cbayer
(146,218 posts)consider a kind of lie).
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)in a "meaningful discussion"?
A. Demonstrating exactly why the quote is taken out of context, and misinterpreted.
B. Calling the poster a liar.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)Christians can't agree what it means.
Excuse me for reading it literally. I'm a simple soul.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)make such a sure footed conclusion?
Many would say that it is a hypothetical in which Paul says that you might think that god permits you to lie, but in fact, god does not.
Proverbs 14:5
An honest witness does not deceive,
but a false witness pours out lies.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)fine tuned explanation why there is no fault to be found there is beyond me.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)You may be a simple non-believer, but you deal with the Bible texts as if they were holy and pure.
I invite you to reread--if you have already in fact read it--my longish bit on the Bible.
A very different reading would not be beyond you if you are willing to use the good mind you obviously have.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)verbatim to achieve their own perhaps worse ends.
Since you are a Protestant, you no doubt sympathize with my even having a Bible. For many centuries Bibles were kept out of the hands of the unworthy. Christendom would probably be better off if all my Bibles were burnt--it would be quite a fire.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)dimbear
(6,271 posts)BTW, while we're on the topic of deception, check the Wackypedia article on pious fraud. Quite a bit of good info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pious_fraud
Interesting historical sidelights......
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Those that use religion and lie to captivate others who actually believe are charlatans.
This OP speaks to an actual religious tenet apparently held by the Mormon church.
My objection here was to those who said this could be found in other religions.
Other than the reference to secretive, cultish sects and a single bible quote taken out of context, I have yet to see anything to back that up.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)We have to judge them by their works. It's only here and there that we see through the cracks, into the inner mechanism. Like that slipup by Paul.
There are innumerable examples. A good one is the testamentum flavinium, or testamonium flavianum, infamous long maintained forgery which was exploded by a little good research. Even more outrageous, the ridiculous "Donation of Constantine." That shouldn't have fooled a child.
Yet -- you can still hear that very same falsehood (the testamentum) quoted today.
(Nobody has the brass the stand up for the Donation.)
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)jeepnstein
(2,631 posts)
Romans 3
New International Version (NIV)
Gods Faithfulness
3 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify Gods faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:
So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.[a]
5 But if our unrighteousness brings out Gods righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, If my falsehood enhances Gods truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner? 8 Why not sayas some slanderously claim that we sayLet us do evil that good may result? Their condemnation is just!
Paul is condemning those in the Church who claim that their ends justify their means. Yeah, it was happening even in the early days of the Church.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)In that little known corner of American history, which is the only time the United States of America has gone to war against a religion, it is almost a lead-pipe cinch that the Romney family sided with the Mormons against America.
It was a nasty little war, and all the casualties were completely innocent bystanders. That's the war which contains the infamous Mountain Meadow Massacre. Wackypedia has an article. Another interesting sidelight is that Brigham Young swore bloody revenge on the invading armies and then ran like a rabbit.
It's in the books.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)A grave indictment of the character of Mormonism's chief. In a notoriously fair and respected journal.
Long 2.2 M PDF, but an eyeopener for history buffs.