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Sat Apr 28, 2012, 06:48 PM

Offended Christians Walk Out as Dan Savage Skewers the Bible at National High School Journalism Conf

Nearly a dozen of high school journalists walked out of a lecture by Dan Savage, the prominent anti-bullying advocate that pioneered the 'It Gets Better' campaign. His comments about the relationship between anti-gay bullying and the bible sparked a walkout of Christian teens at the National High School Journalist Conference in Seattle. Mr Savage called the defectors 'pansy-assed' and would not back down from his comments. I thought this would be about anti-bullying,' Rick Tuttle, the journalism adviser for Sutter Union High School in California, told Fox News. 'It turned into a pointed attack on Christian beliefs.'




Poor babies. They can sure dish it out, but can't take a little friendly criticism in turn.

82 replies, 9273 views

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Reply Offended Christians Walk Out as Dan Savage Skewers the Bible at National High School Journalism Conf (Original post)
LAGC Apr 2012 OP
MrSlayer Apr 2012 #1
cbayer Apr 2012 #2
skepticscott Apr 2012 #7
bongbong Apr 2012 #12
cbayer Apr 2012 #14
skepticscott Apr 2012 #16
Joseph8th Apr 2012 #38
skepticscott Apr 2012 #15
Kalidurga Apr 2012 #3
Leontius Apr 2012 #55
Kalidurga Apr 2012 #67
exboyfil Apr 2012 #4
niyad Apr 2012 #6
WolverineDG Apr 2012 #5
skepticscott Apr 2012 #8
WolverineDG Apr 2012 #19
cbayer Apr 2012 #21
WolverineDG Apr 2012 #22
cbayer Apr 2012 #26
Joseph8th Apr 2012 #39
Lionessa Apr 2012 #75
Joseph8th May 2012 #82
skepticscott Apr 2012 #23
WolverineDG Apr 2012 #27
skepticscott Apr 2012 #30
Joseph8th Apr 2012 #40
Lionessa Apr 2012 #28
skepticscott Apr 2012 #31
Lionessa Apr 2012 #33
skepticscott Apr 2012 #50
Lionessa Apr 2012 #71
skepticscott Apr 2012 #72
Lionessa Apr 2012 #76
skepticscott Apr 2012 #77
Lionessa Apr 2012 #81
cbayer Apr 2012 #60
LARED Apr 2012 #9
dimbear Apr 2012 #17
Humanist_Activist Apr 2012 #18
WolverineDG Apr 2012 #20
Joseph8th Apr 2012 #41
Humanist_Activist Apr 2012 #53
WolverineDG Apr 2012 #57
Humanist_Activist Apr 2012 #66
WolverineDG Apr 2012 #78
Humanist_Activist Apr 2012 #79
AlbertCat Apr 2012 #36
Zorra Apr 2012 #37
Joseph8th Apr 2012 #42
TheMadMonk Apr 2012 #45
Atman Apr 2012 #10
cbayer Apr 2012 #11
bongbong Apr 2012 #13
emilyg Apr 2012 #24
skepticscott Apr 2012 #32
emilyg Apr 2012 #35
Joseph8th Apr 2012 #43
skepticscott Apr 2012 #48
cleanhippie Apr 2012 #58
Hassin Bin Sober Apr 2012 #68
ButterflyBlood Apr 2012 #46
southpaw Apr 2012 #25
Lionessa Apr 2012 #29
cleanhippie Apr 2012 #59
Joseph8th Apr 2012 #44
Evoman Apr 2012 #34
Smarmie Doofus Apr 2012 #52
WolverineDG Apr 2012 #56
Evoman Apr 2012 #61
2ndAmForComputers Apr 2012 #73
ButterflyBlood Apr 2012 #47
skepticscott Apr 2012 #49
ButterflyBlood Apr 2012 #62
skepticscott Apr 2012 #65
Smarmie Doofus Apr 2012 #51
Humanist_Activist Apr 2012 #54
Zorra Apr 2012 #63
cbayer Apr 2012 #64
Enrique Apr 2012 #74
Humanist_Activist Apr 2012 #80
oilpro2 Apr 2012 #69
cbayer Apr 2012 #70

Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:14 PM

1. Logic need not apply.

 

They want to hate, they love it. Good for Savage for telling it like it is.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:16 PM

2. I like Dan Savage a lot and I don't think he "skewers" the bible here.

He talks about how there are many things in the bible that are just wrong (similar to the Dear Dr. Laura letter). He makes a strong case for why using biblical text against homosexuality is wrong and needs to be abandoned. As usual, he is articulate and doesn't mince any words.

The students who walked out were making a statement and can probably be assumed to be homophobic. Either they didn't know who he was or they had planned to go and walk out in protest at some point anyway, imo. I have looked, but can't find any statements from them or whether they came from the same place.

I agree with everything Savage says here except calling them pansy-asses. He should know better. I can understand why he was angry and the point he was trying to make, but name calling is a part of bullying and I think he made an error in judgement driven by emotions.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:31 PM

7. Yes, rather like

calling a group of creationists "a bunch of dumbasses", wouldn't you say? People who scold others about such things should know better. Or get the log out of their eye.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #7)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:09 PM

12. Strawman alert!

 

> calling a group of creationists "a bunch of dumbasses", wouldn't you say?

Who said that?

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Response to cbayer (Reply #14)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:55 PM

16. What's to quit?

You thought it, you said it, and yet you continue to scold others here for saying what you call the same sort of broad brushing, bigoted thing. Did you ever offer a sincere apology for it?

Hypocrisy is hypocrisy. Cope.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #14)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:53 AM

38. Ahhh... oh yes. Poor victimized Christians and bullies...

 

... can dish it out but they can't take it. The fact is that creationists ARE dumb-asses, in the slang-definition of the term (meaning both ignorant and stupid).

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Response to bongbong (Reply #12)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:51 PM

15. You might educate yourself a little

Before you go throwing around the "strawman" label. This was a point-on post about ongoing hypocrisy.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:16 PM

3. The students were wrong to walk out.

They did however prove, that you can lead a student to an education, but you can't make them think. This is not even close to being an attack on Xianity. It is a critique of belief based on words written by some xenophobic nomads thousands of years ago. It is similar to the attacks that many Xians and non-Xians have made on the Koran. Many Muslims feel that is an attack on Islam, yet again it is not. It is an attack on belief based on a book that advocates in some instances cruel things. I am going to note here that I have not read the Koran. But, from the few things I have read it seems very similar to the Bible and I would not be surprised if there was some influence from that book in the Koran.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #3)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 10:55 AM

55. Why were they wrong to walk out ?

Did they break some rule that says you can't walk out on a speaker you don't like? Should they have attemped to shout him down and disrupt his speech? Or should they have just sat there quietly and listen, you know like if it was prayer that offended them.

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Response to Leontius (Reply #55)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 06:53 PM

67. They were wrong because they...

could have learned something. And yes it is rude to walk out on a speaker for merely pointing out facts. Everything, Savage said was an actual fact. If he had been offering up the opinion that anyone that believes what is in the bible is a teabagging , socially conservative, anti-gay bully, who attends KKK rallies, that would be totally different. No one has to take that kind of abuse, not even a teabagging homophobe.

Secondly, I have sat quietly through more than one prayer and held hands with people that are praying. It is the polite thing to do if they are not being actively offensive. I might think it is silly, but I usually don't. I am too busy praying to my own god, on these occasions.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:24 PM

4. These are High School students

He could have communicated his message without using profanity. I happen to agree with his sentiments, and he missed the most troubling passage in the Bible in which God's people are told to kill the women and children of their enemies (on more than one occassion). He made some valid points, but it was lost in the aggressiveness and "bullying" of his presentation. Does he have evidence that any of the journalism students at this conference have ever acted in an aggressive manner against a gay person? Calling them "pansey-asses" is really not moving the conversation forward.

My daughter is a journalism student. She is also a committed Christian who happens to accept same sex civil marriage. I doubt she would walk out, but I would not want to hear someone speaking to a High School group using these words.

Sorry. Correct sentiments but the delivery is awful. Ultimately it comes down to the fact that invdividuals have the right to be secure in their person and property, and all laws should be applied equally and fairly. You can have a society in this fashion that have individuals who still believe that homosexuality is a departure from God's intended purpose. That is not a topic for a High School setting (in either direction).

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #4)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:30 PM

6. have you listened to high school students recently? or even elementary students?

I didn't learn some of that language til I was OLD.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:29 PM

5. So the anti-bully becomes a bully

Calling high school kids "pansy-assed" & all. Bet his mom is really proud of him.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:35 PM

8. Not as proud as

the moms of the kids who walked out are of them, I'll wager...since home is where they most likely learned their attitudes...there and the church that home forced them to attend.

And I doubt these poor little darlings will be scarred for life. A little shaming is no more than they deserve. Boo freaking hoo.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #8)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 09:53 PM

19. Do you often leap to conclusions like this?

Just how do you know that the kids who walked out are homophobic? Do you agree with your hero that these kids are "pansy assed?" Because last time I looked, calling someone a "pansy" was considered a homophobic slur.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #19)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 09:55 PM

21. You know, I wondered about that, too. I think pansy assed would be a slur here, but

Savage has a history of trying to reclaim offensive language, so that may be why he chose that phrase.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #21)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:00 PM

22. Justify it anyway you want

the hypocrisy on DU never fails to amaze me sometimes.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #22)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:56 PM

26. I don't think I am trying to justify it. In fact, I criticized him for saying

this above. I am only trying to understand why he would choose that phrase.

Having listened to him for years, I can only think of that as a reason.

I think he was wrong to say that. It's bullying, imo. He should know better.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #22)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:59 AM

39. Intolerance of intolerance...

 

... is NOT intolerance. And anyone who's been bullied knows there's only one way to deal with them.

You stand up to them. You can't reason with them, so you have to sink to their level. Yeah, they want that. So you have to do it in a way that cuts to quick and makes perfectly clear that further attempts to bully will be met with overwhelming intensity. With any luck, the victim standing up to the bully will win themselves the only kind of respect that bullies have: respect for force -- whether forceful arguments, forceful language, or just plain self-defensive kick in the groin.

That's all they can understand, because they are stupid people, small people. "Pansy ass" was being far too kind.

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Response to Joseph8th (Reply #39)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 11:56 AM

75. What you type is complete BS but the fact so many believe it is

 

imo, the reason the human race will never advance past the cyclical social and community issues that seem to be going round and round since pre-AD it seems if one heeds history.

Read my post #28 for an example of how to both care about another's pov while very courteously shaming them. No need at all to bully.

Secondly getting up and walking out isn't bullying at all, so how is his bullying them any time of turn-about-fair-play?

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #75)

Sat May 5, 2012, 01:29 AM

82. I'm just speaking from experience with bullies...

 

... and offering my opinion of the most effective means of dealing with them by manipulating their psychology, which is utterly primitive. It's so reptilian in its fear-response-reaction chain, that there's no room for dealing compassionately or courteous shaming, because, quite simply, it doesn't work. You may claim it works, but IMO what you type is complete BS for a simple reason:

Bullies have no shame.

It is important for progressives to understand the bully mindset, and to learn how to dis-empower them using minimal force or coercion. Minimal, yes -- but it always takes, minimally, forceful words to dis-empower a bully. The point of bullying, though, is that it is impervious to reason. There's no talking one's way out of being bullied, or shaming a shameless fuckwad.

I'm sorry, but liberals are considered wimps because they refuse to accept the reality that the only respect that bullies (read: the Far Right) have is that dude-bro sort of shallow frat-boy respect for the bigger asshole. When faced with actual an actual, real-life bully, it is perfectly acceptable to be the bigger, meaner, crueler, more cunning asshole. Bullies can kill, and everyone has the right to self-defense.

In Kung Fu, it's called showing mercy to your opponent. Don't play with them like a cat playing with its prey. Show the bully immediately that they are out of their league. It applies verbally as well as violently.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #19)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:09 PM

23. And just where did I say

that I knew the kids who walked out were homophobic? Who's leaping to conclusions?

Not that it would be much of a stretch from this:

"His comments about the relationship between anti-gay bullying and the bible sparked a walkout of Christian teens at the National High School Journalist Conference in Seattle"

And how do you know what he was intending by calling them "pansy-assed"? Did you read his mind and KNOW for a fact that he didn't just mean they were cowardly and weak-willed? Or are you just jumping to more conclusions?

And who said Savage was my hero? Jumping to still more conclusions, are we?

As far as "bullying"... One guy putting a little shame on a whole group that wasn't even there to hear it? Please. I'm sure gawd will give them the strength to overcome this horrible, scarring trauma. They aren't playing victim, so why are you trying to paint them that way?

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #23)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 11:33 PM

27. justify it any way you want

You made all kinds of assumptions about the kids who walked out, based on your own biases. If those kids had heckled him or caused a disruption, his anger at them would have been justified. But all they did was walk out, something any number of adults do at conferenes when they don't agree with what's being said. They acted more maturely than he did.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #27)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 11:55 PM

30. I don't need to justify anything

Last edited Sun Apr 29, 2012, 07:00 AM - Edit history (1)

I asked YOU for evidence to back up your BS claims, and you have none. For any of them. Just your own biases and preconceived notions.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #27)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 02:05 AM

40. Oh really?!

 

Pissy little self-entitled condescending Christians who want special privileges reserved only for themselves and their so-called "Christian" nation. We're fighting for the soul of this great secular nation, here. Liberal Christians have to choose, at long last:

God or Country?

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #8)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 11:44 PM

28. Shame can be applied without bullying. Good campaign, stupid, stupid comment.

 

He could have just a easily said, "Some people are afraid to hear some truths. I can wait a minute if anyone else is feeling fearful and wants to leave."

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #28)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 11:58 PM

31. And how as this bullying

since the people it was directed at weren't even there, walked out happy and proud of themselves, and will likely never have contact with Savage again? how will these people be harmed emotionally by the experience?

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #31)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 12:14 AM

33. I'm sorry if you think bullying is only a face to face issue. Clearly you've never been.

 

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #33)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 06:58 AM

50. Did I say that?

No, I didn't. Please stop making things up.

I mentioned it as one factor, along with others. Does every single instance of one person upbraiding or directing an insult at another person or group, whether in person on not, qualify as "bullying"? Yes or no?

If not, what exactly made this episode rise to the level of "bullying"?

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #50)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 11:19 PM

71. If you don't get it, then you don't get it.

 

Which tells me you've not been a victim of bullying, and then judging by your follow up response, you don't want to understand, you want a black and white sided line that simply doesn't exist.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #71)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 06:14 AM

72. Wow..amazing

you managed to dodge every question I asked. And then had the gall to accuse ME of not wanting to understand your position.

Try again:

Does every single instance of one person upbraiding or directing an insult at another person or group, whether in person on not, qualify as "bullying"? Yes or no? It's a very simple question. YES or NO?

If "no", what exactly made this episode rise to the level of "bullying"?

And please, spare me your dime store psychoanalysis while you're at it.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #72)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:10 PM

76. Simple yes or no? Like I said,

 

you want a black and white sided line that simply doesn't exist.

Therefore there is no simple yes or no. IF those lines were clear cut, neither this nor any of the recent discussions here and elsewhere would be happening.

If you go back and read #28, I'm pretty sure I show an example of how to say the same thing without the need to use intentionally derogatory terms and lowering oneself to the level of a bully.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #76)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:43 PM

77. Lame dodge, but exactly what I expected

The question was phrased as an absolute, so yes, there IS a black and white answer as I posed it, no matter how much you avoid it. If there is even one exception, the answer is no. If not, the answer is yes. Period.

And yes, you showed another way to express disapproval in that situation, but showed no evidence that it would have the same effect, nor have you demonstrated in any way that what WAS said qualifies as "bullying".

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #77)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 04:53 PM

81. If refusing to whittle down a complex situation to a yes/no answer seems lame to you, sbi.

 

Personally I find it quite lame to request, require, or expect a critically thinking individual to answer a complex issue with a simple yes or no.

It is called a "simple" yes or no in that it's for those with perhaps simple thought processes. My thoughts on the subject are just too complex for the naivete of a simple yes/no answer.

Clearly this doesn't please you, but it isn't my job nor my nature to please foolishness.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #28)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 12:00 PM

60. That would have been a perfect statement and showed him to be the class act her really is.

As it stands, it looks like they successfully got to him, which is a shame.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:38 PM

9. Ironic, ain't it. nt

 

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 09:05 PM

17. She was famously proud of him during her life.

Savage often remarks he hopes to see her in heaven. Can't quite let go.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 09:27 PM

18. I don't see Christians being more likely to commit suicide due to Dan Savage...

or people pointing out the absurdities and atrocities of the Bible.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 09:55 PM

20. But you're ok with him calling kids "pansy assed"

Justify it anyway you want, but that's bullying.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #20)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 02:07 AM

41. No...

 

... walking out in a fit of false-pique to defend their right to bully others is bullying. Savage is standing UP to bullies, and that takes a certain degree of brute force. An ugly but perfectly mundane fact.

He should have instead called them out:

God or Country?

Take your pick, but the future belongs to humanity, not invisible imaginary deities, and Christians need to learn their new place in our society -- as equals, not as a privileged class.

Those punk-ass snots just further proved Savage's point. That's how I read it, and that's how it is.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #20)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 08:14 AM

53. No, of course not, he should have called them oversensitive, bigoted, assholes instead.

Get this through your head, absorb it carefully, Christianity is losing its privileged place in society, and this is a good thing. You may whine and complain about it, but frankly I don't care how you feel about it.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #53)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 11:10 AM

57. Would you feel the same if the speaker was a homophobe & called the students "pansy asses?"

If the answer is "no," perhaps you should check your hypocrisy meter.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #57)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 05:35 PM

66. In that case, I would call the speaker a typical Christian.

The problem is that you try to create an equivalence where none exists, and really, that is inexcusable.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #66)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 02:25 PM

78. Nice squirming

Justify it anyway you want, if it keeps you from coming to the uncomfortable realization that you are ok with an adult bullying junior high & high school students.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #78)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 04:48 PM

79. Since when is making an accurate observation of the atrocious nature of the Bible bullying?

These Christians couldn't take a little criticism of their so called holy book, so they showed disrespect by walking out. I care nothing for their precious feelings.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #5)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:23 AM

36. So the anti-bully becomes a bully

If you think calling high school kids "pansy-assed" is bullying...


you haven't been bullied.


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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #5)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:43 AM

37. Oh, please. Sometimes people might react inappropriately toward bigoted

Last edited Sun Apr 29, 2012, 02:24 AM - Edit history (1)

members of the groups that have lied about them, persecuted them, and murdered them for centuries. Especially when the members of these groups walk away when confronted with the truth about the possible cause of the hatred, instead of looking it in the face, and maybe learning something about themselves and what they profess to believe.

It's kind of understandable, don't you think? Doesn't really make someone a bully, does it?

"We ignore what the Bible says about slavery because the Bible got slavery...wrong "

"I have a right to defend myself. And to point out the hypocrisy of people who justify anti-gay bigotry by pointing to the Bible, and insisting we must live by the code of Leviticus on this one issue, and no other."
Dan Savage, 4/27/12

Personally, I think neo-nazi white supremacists and the KKK are sick bigoted monsters. I might even call a group of them that to their faces if given the opportunity.

Would calling members of these groups sick bigoted monsters make me a bully?

Dan Savage might have spoken inappropriately. But to call him a "bully" for this is completely over the top.

I doubt you've experienced any real, sustained bullying in your life.

Below is what real bullying is. Below is the tragic result of the hate and bigotry that spawns this type of bullying.

Another LGBT child took his life today. Just a kid, who, like way too many other kids, was bullied to death by hateful bigots.



28 April 2012, 8:47pm

A 17-year old from Mountain Green, Utah, has killed himself due to homophobic bullying, local media organisations report.

Jack Reese is not the first person to have taken his own life in Northern Utah. One official spoke off-the-record to Marian Edmonds of Ogden OUTreach: “It happens here about once a week, but officially, you know, it doesn’t happen here.”

Jack’s boyfriend, Alex Smith, spoke early in the week at a community event during which a film on bullying was being screened. Smith recalled, without even realising that Jack had already taken his own life, how his boyfriend was repeatedly bullied at school.
Yesterday, ahead Jack’s funeral at Ogden this morning, OUTreach, announced that an urgent meeting will be held on May 1, to address LGBT bullying and suicide in Northern Utah. Several community leaders, teachers, parents, and young people are expected to attend, including active members of the Mormon Church.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/04/28/utah-gay-teenager-commits-suicide/

Stop the hate instead of blaming the victims.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #37)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 02:10 AM

42. Thank you!!

 

Intolerance of intolerance is not intolerance! You have to stand up to bullies, or they NEVER stop. It just gets WORSE.

This is just more knee-jerk reaction from bullies who (correctly) feel their privileged status slipping away.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #5)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 02:22 AM

45. HE DID NOT! He called their BEHAVIOUR pansy-assed.

 

But I don't expect you to get it, any more than I'd expect any "average American" to get it, because my experience hase drawn me to the conclusion that in America, (and most of the world) an attack on the act is almost INEVITABLY construed as a direct and personal attack on the individual performing it.

And the people here are not immune: Raise an objection to extrajudicial treatment of "perverts" and you'll get labled an apologist for paedophiles. Report a direct and PUBLIC quote of an Israeli official and get labled an anti-semite, even (or perhaps especially) when that quote in absolutely NO UNCERTAIN TERMS makes a clear and openly stated distinction between "GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE" and THE REST OF THE WORLD.

Yes. I happen to agree, "She" has a right to wear whatever she likes wherever she pleases. It happens to "please" me and I have sufficient control over my own gonads, not to express my likes in the form of rape.

No. I also agree, "He" has no right to forcibly obtain sexual favours even if "she" is buck naked and tied to the pool table. I have sufficient control over my own gonads, to deny them, unless given explicit permission to "fuck up a storm". (Still waiting ladies. )

However. Only a fool should be surprised when reality trumps idealism on almost every occasion and some poor girl, relying on preemptive protections of the law instead finds herself the victim of post facto interpretations of her "contributory behaviour". It's not RIGHT. It's what IS.

By all and every possible/accptable means, work to change that "IS", but FFS "WORK" towards that end. It is not enough to simply define the parameters of a perfect world, and then sit back on one's heels and condemn everything and anything which doesn't fit those parameters as non-democratic, un-godly, anti-thetical, et fucking cetera.

Just think about it for moment. It doesn't take any great effort to craft a philosophy which is compatible with "A Perfect World", and yet, such a philosophy is almost absolutely guaranteed to fail, everry single time, when confronted with THE WORLD THAT IS.

The difference between "THEM" and "US" is not some great and uncrossable ideological divide. The difference between "THEM" and "US" is that both sides REFUSE to offer any understanding to the veiwpoint of THE OTHER. It's not about accepting their worldview, it's about understanding it, EVEN WHEN YOU DON'T ACCEPT IT.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:41 PM

10. They appear to have already know who Savage is, and what he is about.

After all, they left before he really said much of anything, and virtually every one of them was laughing, smiling or chuckling on the way out. Not a single one of them looked angry or upset, just happy to get to do their little protest thing on camera.

.

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Response to Atman (Reply #10)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:52 PM

11. I agree. I think it was an organized protest against Savage.

I also noted how quickly they started leaving and some did appear to be snickering.

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Response to Atman (Reply #10)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:11 PM

13. It never changes

 

The favorite role to play (by far) for wingnuts, insane teabaggers, and just about any repig is the Victim.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:11 PM

24. I would have walked

 

out, too. Pansy ?????? You approve?

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Response to emilyg (Reply #24)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 12:01 AM

32. Why would you have walked out with those students?

Are you also offended by the factual connection of the Bible with anti-gay bullying? Because that was the only reason THEY had.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #32)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 12:33 AM

35. So you approve of

 

"pansy asses".

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Response to emilyg (Reply #35)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 02:10 AM

43. Yes. nt

 

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Response to emilyg (Reply #35)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 06:47 AM

48. I asked why

you would have walked out with those students. Are you afraid to answer that simple question? Why are you trying to support what they did and why they did it by saying that you would have done the same thing in their place?

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Response to emilyg (Reply #35)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 11:19 AM

58. You do realize that the term "pansy asses" was used AFTER they walked out, right?

So why would you have walked out in the first place, as you stated?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #58)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 09:44 PM

68. She won't burn a cross on your lawn. She might roast a marsh-mellow, but she won't start the fire.

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Response to emilyg (Reply #24)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 02:55 AM

46. As would I

nt

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:28 PM

25. As I read it...

“It’s funny, as someone who’s on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the bible, how pansy-assed some people react when you push back.”

It may be mostly semantic, but it seems that Savage called the reactions of the students pansy-assed, not the students themselves. That's just my take on it. Not that it matters. I'm with Savage.

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Response to southpaw (Reply #25)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 11:47 PM

29. Good point, but definitely an iffy phrase, generally associated with bullying.

 

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #29)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 11:21 AM

59. And as with most generalizations, there are exceptions, and this is one.

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Response to southpaw (Reply #25)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 02:13 AM

44. Right... calling out the behaviour...

 

... and notice the last few words...

..." WHEN YOU PUSH BACK. "

In other words, the bullies started this brawl. We're just sick of standing down. Time to STAND UP.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 12:20 AM

34. He shouldn't have called them pansy assed. Even though they totally are. Big time.

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Response to Evoman (Reply #34)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 07:41 AM

52. MSM journalists of tomorrow. Good god. n/t

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Response to Evoman (Reply #34)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 11:09 AM

56. And yet, if the situation were reversed

and it was a homophobe speaking to high school students & calling them pansy asses for walking out, you would be cheering the kids on while the DU outrage meter would kick into over-drive against the speaker.

But, of course, on DU, a hero can never ever be wrong & must be supported, no matter the amount of Olympic-level mental gymnastics required.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #56)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 12:16 PM

61. Didn't I say he shouldn't have called them that?

Besides, if you don't see the difference between someone leaving a talk after having their IDEAS attacked, and someone having their sexuality and core being attacked...well dude, I can't fucking say anything more.

Besides, this guy is not my "hero". I don't even know who he is, though the name sounds familiar.

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Response to WolverineDG (Reply #56)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 07:24 AM

73. There's right and there's wrong.

Savage was speaking out against bigotry. The students were there to make a pro-bigotry statement.

Were it a bigot speaker and and anti-bigotry protest, you bet your ass we'd indeed be cheering the protesters and skewering the bigot.

You say it like it's a bad thing.

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 02:59 AM

47. What makes Savage a dick here is that so many others involved in It Gets Better are Christians

Hell even clergy have been involved in it. I'm sure many of those students walking out were probably supportive of it too and hardly anti-gay bullies, high school students at a journalism conference don't strike me as a very socially conservative bunch, or likely to be bullies.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #47)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 06:51 AM

49. Why don't they "strike you" that way?

Have you me them? Talked to them? Read anything they've written or listened to anything they've said? Do you know anything about their attitudes regarding gays?

And do you dismiss the possibility that journalists can't be also be conservative?

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #49)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:21 PM

62. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a nice premise to go off

And while journalists can be conservative, I wasn't in high school that long ago, and anyone capable of making it to such a conference would be more likely than not to not be, and almost certainly not a bully. Bullies didn't get too far and were just staying in detention or suspended frequently.

Many people here seem to be assuming that:

1-EVERY SINGLE student that walked out is anti-gay and
2-EVERY SINGLE student that walked out is a bully.

Now do you see the problem with that broad brush assumption? Mind you if Savage had said similar things at a Young Democrats conference, there would probably be walkouts too.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #62)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 02:00 PM

65. Point me to posts on this thread

who have assumed that "EVERY single student that walked out is a bully". If there are "many", that should be no problem. Of course, when you say "seem", that makes me wonder if you aren't the one making assumptions, because you need to tag other people as broad brushers.

As far as the first, give us YOUR explanation for this:

"His comments about the relationship between anti-gay bullying and the bible sparked a walkout of Christian teens at the National High School Journalist Conference in Seattle"

Then we can talk about what's the more likely explanation.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #47)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 07:39 AM

51. I heard a critique of a highly selective interpretation of a section of a Judeo-Christian document.

You seem to have heard an attack on "Christianity."

I didn't hear Savage address... much less attack... "Christianity".

It makes as much sense to accuse him of anti-semitism as it does to imply that he's anti christian.

Which is to say: it makes no sense at all.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #47)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 08:17 AM

54. So he shouldn't criticize the Bible because Christians are oversensitive?

Seriously?

How fucked up are the priorities of these students that their mythology is more important than people?

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #47)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:37 PM

63. I suspect most Christians supportive of It Gets Better agree with Dan.

It appears to me that there are major differences between Christians and conservatives that consider themselves Christians.

The primary difference, IMO, appears to be that sincere Christians believe in a living, loving God, and that conservative fundamentalists believe in the bible as a deity, most likely because they can pick whatever they want out of the bible in order to justify their own needs, and conveniently disregard the rest because it does not fit in with their personal agenda.

"I have a right to defend myself. And to point out the hypocrisy of people who justify anti-gay bigotry by pointing to the bible, and insisting we must live by the code of Leviticus on this one issue and no other."

Dan is calling out people that choose certain bible verses over others because these verses support their twisted need to hate someone/something that is different from them.

Maybe these young people couldn't deal with facing the honesty and validity of Dan's statements, and chose to walk away rather than deal with the truth about their own hypocrisy.

Then again, maybe they were also acting on instructions from Focus on the Family, or some other bizarre organization that persecutes LGBT folks. There's plenty of them out there.

Whatever.

Anyone that claims that they know the one and only truth but cannot stand up to logically and reasonably support their beliefs in the face of a valid and honest question is certainly not credible in my estimation.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #63)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:45 PM

64. Well said, Zorra.

I also think this was an organized protest put together prior to Dan's speech.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #47)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 07:32 AM

74. he isnt attacking Christianity

dont buy the RW spin.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #74)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 04:50 PM

80. Even if he was, so what. It deserves to be attacked when it is wrong. n/t

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Response to LAGC (Original post)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 10:08 PM

69. Part of what a wonderful privilege being a Christian is...

 

is the ability to be offended by something someone else says in a nation that endorses and guarantees free speech.

Christians can choose not to listen to facts, they can choose to walk out on a speaker who has done a big part in starting the anti-bullying campaign that even the President and the Secretary of State and so many other famous people have contributed to. But Christians have the right to walk out on all of that, because they can choose to feel offended by words spoken about facts about the Bible.


Christians are so blessed with special rights to walk out whenever they want.

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Response to oilpro2 (Reply #69)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 10:11 PM

70. What? Any person has those rights.

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