Bernie Sanders must accept that Pope Francis isn’t a friend to the left

[trotsky]

The pontiff can’t be a true humanitarian with his anti-woman and anti-LGBT views

http://www.salon.com/2016/04/14/bernie_sanders_must_accept_that_pope_francis_isnt_a_friend_to_the_left_the_pontiff_cant_be_a_true_humanitarian_with_his_anti_woman_and_anti_lgbt_views/

In an already weird election season, things have gotten even stranger as Bernie Sanders vies heavily and openly for Pope Francis to meet with him. Sanders admires the pope so much that he is leaving the campaign trail for a couple of days, something even some allies question the wisdom of, to speak at the Vatican and, he hopes, get a chance to meet Francis and (of course), get a picture with him.

“I believe that the pope has been an inspirational figure in raising public consciousness about the kind of income and wealth inequality we are seeing all over this world,” Sanders told The Washington Post, explaining his decision.

...

If so, that’s a real shame, because it shows yet again that liberals and progressives really need to get it into their heads: The Pope is not your friend. And he’s not really a friend to the poor, because half of them (probably more) are women.

...

The church’s insistence that women be forced to choose between celibacy or having one child after another until their bodies give out is not just some esoteric theological stance that has no impact on the real world. It does real, material harm every day.

Much much more in this piece about the pope's (and his church's) continued hostility toward key elements of liberalism.

[enid602]

1. Pope

And now, the Pope's under the bus just because he snubbed (and failed to feel the) bern!

[Act_of_Reparation]

3. Maybe you're lost.

This isn't GDP. And the Pope's been under the bus for a long time now, and for better reasons than not courting an American presidential candidate.

[rug]

48. Maybe it's because the OP piut this here instead of GDP.

So, are you still planning to vote for someone who supports bigots?

[2pooped2pop]

4. you got that from one post from another site?

wow

[AtheistCrusader]

13. You must be new here. Go ahead and scroll down for pope-related articles prior to last year.

Pope's a bigoted asshole, and always has been. Its in the job description, apparently.

[trotsky]

15. It's a job to which you are appointed by bigoted assholes...

...at least partially based on how much of a bigoted asshole you can be - while putting on a friendly face.

So, yeah. They found the right man for the job.

[2pooped2pop]

2. compared to previous Popes, this one is a winner.

I don't expect to agree with him on everything though.

[trotsky]

5. The article addresses that exact sentiment:

This pope is admittedly less awful than his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, but that’s like saying a kick in the knees isn’t as bad as a kick in the crotch. Ideally, no one should be kicking anyone at all, and progressives really shouldn’t apologize for holding that ground.

[Act_of_Reparation]

6. Bingo.

It would be one thing if the Pope, and the church more generally, were inclined to keep their anachronistic attitudes towards sex and gender but were goodly enough to leave secular law the hell alone. But they're not. They're actively lobbying the government to codify their bullshit into law.

Sorry, but I'm not giving that a pass because the Pope and I happen to share similar views on greed and money.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. His PR is effective. That's all.

You've eaten it hook line and sinker. His policies are the same as John Paul II. His delivery is similar, or more humble than JPII, and FAR more humble than Ratzinger, but their policies are consistent.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

56. Ish.

They're on broadly the same side on most issues, it's true - there are not many things the last two were wrong about but this one isn't.

But, in his defence, this one seems to care more about the things he's right about - economic justice and peace - and less about the things he's wrong about - sexual ethics and gender politics - than the last two.

He's still just as wrong, but not as passionately so.

[mr blur]

17. Well, compared to normal, rational members of society, this one's a heartless bigot.

Although I suppose you could say that that goes with the job. Same with being a hypocrite

[bvf]

7. I'm against Sanders's trip.

As noted near the end of the piece:

Politics is a world where you sometimes have to deal with unsavory characters because they are in positions of power and influence.

If ever there were an unsavory character in a position of power and influence, that would be the pope--any pope--pretty much by definition.

[trotsky]

12. Yup, that's a great line. n/t

[BlueMTexpat]

8. This is one reason why I have

been mystified that Bernie would believe that leaving NY to make a trip to the Vatican (disingenuously billed as an invitation from the Pope himself) just before the must-win NY primary would be a good idea at all.

Mixing religion and politics so blatantly? Going specifically to give a ten-minute speech on the occasion of a conference discussing an encyclical written by John Paul II who was a fierce opponent of "socialism" and an even more "Establishment" figure than Francis?

Very poor judgment overall, IMO. If this trip was intended to burnish Bernie's "foreign affairs" credentials, it is an amazing fail, also IMO.

[AlbertCat]

9. it is an amazing fail

Oh please.

It's a great opportunity to get his message out from a huge "carrier" of messages with a wide distribution.

And like someone said elsewhere on DU... since when has this thing been covered in the news? It happens every year.

It's kinda like going on Fox News when invited only maybe a notch or two up, and international....IMHO of course.

[2naSalit]

11. +1

[AtheistCrusader]

16. I want to know what happened to Pope Environmentalist The First?

Use Skype. No need for Bernie to hike all the way over there to attend their conference.

[jmousso75]

10. Vatican is not a friend to the left

Neither is Hillary!

[jonno99]

18. This may get me a hide, but I thought I'd go ahead and throw it out there anyway:

big·ot·ry
ˈbiɡətrē/
noun
noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries

intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

https://www.google.com/search?q=stymie+def&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Oftentimes these days I see this word thrown around with impunity. And while it's use is mostly apropos, there are many other instances where all I can do is smile at the irony.

My two cents - fwiw...

[trotsky]

19. Ironic indeed that everyone on DU is bigoted against Republicans, huh?

I'm also bigoted against homophobes and misogynists, and those who defend them. Sorry, not sorry.

[Lordquinton]

20. I don't get it

Why post that in this thread?

[jonno99]

21. In a word: vitriol. Francis is the most progressive pope in our lifetime, and yet, still

nothing but vitriol from many here.

[trotsky]

22. As I pointed out in post #5, the article addresses that.

This pope is admittedly less awful than his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, but that’s like saying a kick in the knees isn’t as bad as a kick in the crotch. Ideally, no one should be kicking anyone at all, and progressives really shouldn’t apologize for holding that ground.

It's not "vitriol" to point out that someone is bigoted against non-cis-straight individuals.

[rug]

49. It's not "vitriol" to point out that someone is bigoted against entire religious groups.

To the contrary, it's necessary

[Goblinmonger]

26. What policies has he changed from the previous pope?

I'm not talking about random things he's said. I'm talking about actual policies.

[jonno99]

28. Policy change doesn't occur in a vacuum. First discussion, then persuasion, then change. Agreed? nt

[berniepdx420]

30. +1

[trotsky]

32. In a democratic organization, yep, that's how it works.

The RCC is not a democratic organization.

Try again.

[jonno99]

39. Sorry - think... 'Ecumenical Council"...nt

[skepticscott]

53. That's where lay catholics get to vote on

what they want church doctrine to be, right?

[jonno99]

54. The thread of thought here is reaching a consensus ("persuasion, then change").

If a pope were to act outside of the established canon he could be deposed - if his actions were deemed egregious enough

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Ecumenical_Councils

[skepticscott]

55. Show us where the discussion is occurring

on whether the church should support same-sex marriage.

Oh...wait...we just saw it. And the church doubled down condemning it, not just for Catholics, but for everyone.

[jonno99]

58. I give you points for tenacity, but who are you trying to kid?

Are you suggesting that if the CC supported ss marriage, then you'd stop attacking them? I have my doubts.

My guess is that only total & complete capitulation would be acceptable to you - am I correct?

[skepticscott]

60. Where did I say that? Saying that I'm trying to "kid" anyone

is just bullshit that you made up to deflect from your own defending of one of the most corrupt and bigoted organizations in the world.

The catholic church's rabid opposition to same-sex marriage is only one of their many offenses, so no, changing their doctrine and practices with regard to that ONE thing would not get them a pass on everything else, as much as you might wish otherwise.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

57. That's technically true, but it's a very low standard.

He's less illiberal than any previous pope, but still very illiberal.

[skepticscott]

23. So is it your position

that if something doesn't fall under this particular definition, it can't be called "bigotry"?

Because if that's not your position, then what's your point in thowing it out there?

[jonno99]

25. Sorry - I thought my point was clear: the irony of the intolerant describing

others as bigots.

[trotsky]

27. Are you intolerant of sexism, homophobia, and transphobia?

I am.

[jonno99]

34. I applaud you for taking such a brave stance. What would be even more impressive is

you admitting that everyone who disagrees with you is NOT on par with the Westboro Baptist folks...

[trotsky]

37. I'll do that just as soon as you admit that you stopped beating your wife.

Seriously, WTF kind of question is that? Both Blank Frank and the Westboro folks are anti-gay bigots who think gay people are violating god's law. Frank cloaks his bigotry better, I'll readily admit that. Is that what you're looking for? Frank and his church want homosexuals to live a life of celibacy, or of denial (by marrying someone of the opposite sex). How is that "better" than the Westboro clan?

[jonno99]

42. Sigh...you're right, it's not. I mean, who could possibly argue with that logic? Not me... nt

[trotsky]

44. No, please, explain to me how they are different in anything but smiling when they say it.

Frank and his church think homosexuality is "intrinsically disordered" and that to engage in homosexual sex is a sin, leading to endangering one's afterlife. (I.e., going to hell.)

Westboro Baptist thinks homosexuals will go to hell because they are sinning.

Again, tell me what's different. Go.

[rug]

50. He is nothing if not heroic.

[skepticscott]

46. Which has nothing to do with

the "definition" you flung out there.

But feel free to show us evidence of this "intolerance" you're accusing people of.

[rug]

52. Click your "My Posts" tab.

Start with this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=219545

[skepticscott]

61. Still waiting for you to show us

even one example of the "intolerance" that you claim exists here.

tick tock.

[jonno99]

62. "Still waiting" Really, why? Do you have a some expectation of

being satisfied by any response I might provide? Be honest!

No, me neither. If I thought there might be a chance, I'd go through the effort. But alas, there is only so much water I'll poor down a given well before I give up priming...

[skepticscott]

63. I've given you the chance to back up your claim with evidence

That you can't even attempt to justify what you said is all the proof anyone needs that your claim is bullshit and that you know it was when you made it.

Do you think anyone buys this lame dodge? It's been tried by better apologists than you and demolished.

[jonno99]

64. You're the man Scott - consider me demolished...

[skepticscott]

65. The phony self-deprecation dodge has been tried many times, too

And is just as much a fail.

But keep flailing...everyone is enjoying it.

[jonno99]

66. Phony?! You cut me deep Scott...

(wait - this doesn't fall under that whole "it takes one to..." well, you know...)

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. The derivation of 'bigot': from "a superstitious religious hypocrite"

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bigot

[Humanist_Activist]

59. So what? By that definition, I'm a proud bigot against racists, homophobes, transphobes and...

misogynists.

How can you not be?

[berniepdx420]

29. While there are very obvious differences between the Left and the Pope.. there are some very

important principles we agree on... just for starters.. Income Inequality

[trotsky]

31. That's great.

Fred Phelps was actually a valiant civil rights lawyer who fought for racial equality.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/05/hate.preacher/

Should we have given him a pass on his anti-gay protests?

[berniepdx420]

33. I am certainly not giving him a pass.. but I would work with him on certain issues..and so would you

[trotsky]

35. You should probably read the article again.

It's hard to "work with" someone who is actually working against you. Blank Frank and his church support policies that encourage and perpetuate poverty.

[berniepdx420]

36. I completely understand that point... but I am not willing to cease conversation ... it's like the

whole don't negotiate with your enemy thing... it's not smart and leads to violence.. always...

why not champion the life long fight Bernie has waged for the least of us...

[trotsky]

38. Good, next time you get to converse with the pope, let me know.

Me, I harbor no illusion that I'll ever get to converse with the man, so I speak my mind where I can.

And AS I JUST POINTED OUT, the pope and his church are making poverty HARDER TO FIGHT.

[berniepdx420]

40. uhg.... if you had dealt with my last point I would take you more seriously..

[trotsky]

41. Odd that you aren't able to see that I actually did.

The RCC is fighting Bernie on economic issues with their pro-poverty policies.

[berniepdx420]

43. circles we talk in... talk later have a good one

[trotsky]

45. Yeah, it's a crazy circle.

Say poverty's a problem, then promote policies that help lock people into a cycle of poverty. Hard to break out of that circle indeed.

[rug]

47. Ah, Bernie is now an enabler.

How can any progressive now vote for Bernie.

[EdwardBernays]

51. erm

progressivism, so we keep being told by Clintonites, isn't some one issue belief system...

by MANY progressive's standards Hillary Clinton could never be considered a progressives, and by others the Pope...

I think Bernie has made it clear that he STRONGLY disagrees with the churches views toward abortion, for example, but strongly agrees on the need for a moral economy...