Pope: 'Death penalty represents failure' – no 'humane' way to kill a person

[Eugene]

Source: Associated Press

Pope: 'Death penalty represents failure' – no 'humane' way to kill a person

Associated Press in Vatican City
Friday 20 March 2015 21.27 GMT

Pope Francis says nothing can justify the use of the death penalty, and there is no “right” way to humanely kill another person.

Francis outlined the Catholic church’s opposition to capital punishment in a letter to the International Commission against the Death Penalty, a group of former government officials, jurists and others who had an audience with him at the Vatican on Friday.

The pope wrote that the principle of legitimate personal defense isn’t adequate justification to execute someone. “When the death penalty is applied, it is not for a current act of aggression, but rather for an act committed in the past.”

“Nowadays the death penalty is inadmissible, no matter how serious the crime committed,” Francis declared. He was building on church teaching, including pronouncements during St John Paul II’s papacy, that modern prison systems make executions unnecessary.

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Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/20/pope-francis-death-penalty-catholic-church-opposition

[TexasProgresive]

1. So Francis echos JP II and Benedict's thoughts on the death penalty

and RWNJ Catholics will continue to ignore it while claiming they are the only real Catholics. And we don't have to worry about their brains being splatered all over because their heads will NOT explode. What there will be is excrement all over because that's what they are good at slinging.

[rpannier]

2. Pretty Much

They love to use the Pope's position to justify their anti-choice stance
But, when it comes to opposition to the death penalty, helping the poor, immigration reform, etc they're willing to ignore those positions

[marym625]

4. Just like they did to John XXIII

Ignored and hated by many. But he won in the long run. Unfortunately, then came benedict..

[marym625]

3. K&R!

He says some good things. This is one of them

[fasttense]

5. This is what pro-life use to mean

Now it means government control of a woman's uterus. My how times have changed.

[trusty elf]

6. "death penalty is inadmissible, no matter how serious the crime committed"

Yet some people seriously believe that judgement and possible eternal damnation await us at the end.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. hush, that's different. Just don't ask how. nt.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

10. Wow

I do not understanding your thinking.

Care to tell me what you know about time?

[Warren Stupidity]

11. thyme is a generally underused herb.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

25. much more informative than anything else I have seen you post

there may be some hope for you

[Unvanguard]

13. It depends on how you think about Hell, I think.

The death penalty is intentional killing. Some modern views of Hell suggest that the accompanying suffering isn't intended by God, but is just the inevitable result of a chosen separation from God and from grace.

That said, it seems to me that universal reconciliation (no one goes to Hell) or something close to it is probably the most defensible Christian view.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. So God's Hell has unintended consequences?

That is a serious theological position?

[Unvanguard]

16. We need to be careful about "intent" here.

I can do something that I know has a certain natural consequence, without intending that consequence (in the sense that it's not what I'm seeking, it's not why I'm doing what I'm doing). The position isn't that it's "accidental" in the sense that God made a mistake or didn't foresee something. So, for example, many people deny that God intends human evil, even though (given traditional views of His foreknowledge) He presumably knew it was going to result from creation.

In this case, the position is something like, the highest good for humans is communion with God, that communion is damaged or broken by sin (just by the nature of what God is and what sin is), and repairing it requires accepting grace, which is an uncompelled choice. So people who don't accept grace lose out on the highest good, and therefore suffer, but that's not because God desires or intentionally brings about their suffering.

Edit: The problem with this, in my view, is that a natural corollary surely must be that God really tries very hard to get people to accept grace and to understand why doing so is important. And if lots of people end up damned, especially if they're damned through no fault of their own (e.g., because they were raised in the "wrong" religion), it's hard to see God as trying very hard. This is why I think we end up sliding toward universal reconciliation once you abandon a strongly punitive view of Hell. Which is fine with me.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. wow this theology stuff is great

so the alleged god can punish us FOR ETERNITY in HELL and escape all blame. Really fabulous stuff.

By the way I don't need to be careful about "intent", the word is clear enough. You do. It only becomes unclear when alleged creators of the universe with all sorts of omni-powers are involved, then this "intent" thing gets really sticky.

[Unvanguard]

20. But that's the point, it's not "punishment" in the proper sense.

Punishment involves intent. Conventionally, punishment means that some authority intentionally does harm to some person because of wrongdoing by that person. There is certainly some tension involved in thinking that respect for human dignity and love for human beings means that it is inappropriate to punish people with death, but perfectly appropriate to punish them with eternal damnation. But it doesn't come out the same if it's not punishment, but rather a natural consequence of the nature of sin and the presence of free will.

"Intent" is a pretty tricky and sometimes-ambiguous concept in lots of contexts that have nothing to do with theology. Comes up a lot in law, for example.

[cbayer]

17. I don't see what those two things have in common.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. yeah, just killing somebody is one hell of a lot less cruel than

torturing their immortal soul forever. I see why you would be confused.

[trusty elf]

22. I sometimes marvel at the idea of an anthropomorphic god

sitting in judgement on high, meting out justice-including punishment much worse than death, namely, everlasting torture and agony. Perhaps nobody really believes that any more, I don't know. If the Pope does, I just find it odd that this wouldn't strike him as unacceptable. if, as he says, nothing can justify the death penalty, then it would seem that he should find damning someone eternally to also be unjustifiable.


That was my thought, but I'm jet lagged, so maybe I'm not making much sense.

[cbayer]

24. If one were to accept the position you propose, I guess they

would say that god has the right to punish anyone he wants, but man does not.

The death penalty is something imposed by humans.

But I have a cold and might not make sense either, lol.

[AtheistCrusader]

27. Perhaps god should consider leading by example.

Or rather, that consider that perhaps he HAS led by example, in that lovely genocidal 'drown everyone' story you like so much.

[AtheistCrusader]

26. Of course you don't. 'See no evil'.

[okasha]

23. At this poin, most of them are

probably evangelical Protestants, over whom the Pope has no authority.

Way back in the 50's, the nuns at my school taught that no one knows what happens between God and a person at the moment of death, so that we cannot assume that anyone is damned. It is a grave sin to wish, or pray, that anyone be damned.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Catholics are surprisingly dominant in this country, county by county.

Granted, some of the other Christian variants will combine forces to over-rule catholics at times.

[okasha]

30. Of course. I live in one of those counties.

My point was that supporters of the death penalty are more likely to be evangelical Protestant than Catholic these days.

Interestingly enough, if you look at that map of Texas, the Catholic areas represent the Democratic strength in the state. The Baptist counties tend strongly Republican.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. So the catholic bishops will be withholding communion and threatening excommunication

for catholic politicians that support the death penalty real soon now, right?

[mountain grammy]

9. of course not, they will do the 'right' thing and ignore each other.

what's the point? Oh yeah that's right, the money and power. I keep forgetting.

[cbayer]

12. Another thing I hope he includes in his remarks to Congress.

[okasha]

21. So do I.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. There are much more credible sources of opposition to the death penalty right here in the US.

[pinto]

15. As a blanket opponent to the death penalty, I appreciate this statement. (nt)