Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:46 AM Feb 2015

Disclosing One's Identity: Atheist or Christian

February 4, 2015
Posted by Jack Vance at 5:19 AM

At a party, you meet someone for the first time. You know nothing about her except her name and what little you can infer from her appearance and attire. She appears to be a woman of approximately your age. She looks fit, is dressed appropriately for the setting, and you find her at least somewhat attractive. But aside from her name (which she has just told you), these few observations about her appearance, and the fact that her presence at this party suggests that she probably knows someone here, you don't know anything about her. Right after she tells you her name, she informs you that she is a Christian.

If we assume that you live in the United States or another country where the overwhelming majority of the population is Christian, I'd suggest that you still don't know much more about this woman than you did before she told you she was a Christian. You don't know whether she is more or less intelligent than you did before she told you she was Christian. You don't know whether she is a morally better or worse person than you did before she told you she was Christian. She might as well have said, "I'm just like everyone else." Aside from whatever you want to make of how early in the conversation she disclosed her Christianity, you still know next to nothing about her. I suspect that most atheists would agree with this and that most Christians would not. Many Christians would be inclined to say that learning that the woman was Christian made it more likely that she was a good person.

If we were to imagine the same thing happening but change the disclosure so the woman tells you that she is an atheist, we'd find ourselves in a similar situation. Knowing that she is an atheist does not tell you that she is any more or less intelligent or any more or less moral. You still know very little about her. Again, I suspect that most atheists would agree with this but that relatively few Christians would do so. Many Christians seem to be convinced that atheists are awful people and that knowing this woman was an atheist would tell one to steer clear of her.

Aside from the one difference I've already suggested (i.e., differences in how some atheists and some Christians might react), I'd suggest that there are at least two more important differences. First, unlike the disclosure of Christianity telling us "I'm just like everyone else," you now find yourself hearing something quite different when someone tells you they are an atheist. By disclosing her atheism, this woman is indicating that she is not just like everyone else but rather different in an area most people consider extremely important. Second, by making such a disclosure to a complete stranger in a society where atheists are widely despised by the Christian majority, she's taking a real risk. Disclosures like this are often met with strong social disapproval. It might be reasonable to hypothesize, on this basis, that the woman telling you she is an atheist is somewhat of a nonconformist and a bit bolder than many people. You still don't know much about her, but it seems like you might have some clearer ideas about the sort of person she might be than you did in the first scenario.

http://www.atheistrev.com/2015/02/disclosing-ones-identity-atheist-or.html#ixzz3Qn8kVgi0

23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Disclosing One's Identity: Atheist or Christian (Original Post) rug Feb 2015 OP
“I yam what I yam, and that's all what I yam.” TexasProgresive Feb 2015 #1
Convoluted nonsense, imo. cbayer Feb 2015 #2
Sounds right to me. immoderate Feb 2015 #3
Then you also have some very broad brush and unsubstantiated cbayer Feb 2015 #4
I was agreeing with you. No broad brushing. immoderate Feb 2015 #6
Please see my edit above and accept my apology. cbayer Feb 2015 #8
None necessary. I'm happy to clear up the misunderstanding. immoderate Feb 2015 #9
There was this gal I really fell pretty hard for. rogerashton Feb 2015 #5
I hope you are both happy. cbayer Feb 2015 #7
I think it came out only after we seemed to be getting a bit serious. rogerashton Feb 2015 #10
That is very cool. Happy anniversary to you. cbayer Feb 2015 #11
Thankew. rogerashton Feb 2015 #12
If the first thing a person said after introduction okasha Feb 2015 #13
Indeed. Arugula Latte Feb 2015 #14
I can't imagine why anyone would say either thing immediately. MineralMan Feb 2015 #15
I never bring up my beliefs unless its part of a conversation, and usually only when someone... Humanist_Activist Feb 2015 #16
Have you had conversations irl lately with Catholics who are still Catholic? rug Feb 2015 #17
Not about religion, no... Humanist_Activist Feb 2015 #18
If you meet one it would be useful to find out why they are. rug Feb 2015 #21
Not sure how useful it would be, please bear in mind that pretty much everyone... Humanist_Activist Feb 2015 #22
I find it interesting how easily the off switch is flipped. rug Feb 2015 #23
Christian, OK Cartoonist Feb 2015 #19
Which attributes constitute one's "identity"? carolinayellowdog Feb 2015 #20

TexasProgresive

(12,148 posts)
1. “I yam what I yam, and that's all what I yam.”
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:53 AM
Feb 2015

If it comes up in conversation I am not hiding what I believe. I don't proselytize where it is not wanted- something about casting pearls before swine. It's not so much that I think they are swine but there is no point if the witness of my life is not good enough words mean little.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
2. Convoluted nonsense, imo.
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:53 AM
Feb 2015

I'm going to make some assumptions about anyone who tells me they are a christian or an atheist right away. If they are wearing a symbol that indicates this, I'm also going to make some assumptions but probably not as harsh.

I rarely meet people that do this and I think his assumptions about how "most" people from any group would react are totally fallacious.

Unless there is a compelling reason to do so, why would you reveal your religious orientation at all in an initial introduction?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
4. Then you also have some very broad brush and unsubstantiated
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:15 PM
Feb 2015

assumptions about how "most" christians and "most" atheists will respond to things.

These kinds of assumptions are not helpful at all. Let's just all treat and judge people based on their behavior, instead of their labels. What do you say?

EDIT: I answered assuming that you were agreeing with the OP and not me. That was an assumption that may have been incorrect and based solely on past experience. If I was wrong, please allow me to withdraw this response.

rogerashton

(3,918 posts)
5. There was this gal I really fell pretty hard for.
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:18 PM
Feb 2015

And she seemed pretty interested in me. Then she broke it off. Her family could not go along with her getting together with a non-catholic.

I guess I would have liked to know that in advance.

Last time I saw her was about 6 in the morning after a hurricane. There was still some blowing rain. She and her new husband and two friends were stranded in a car that wouldn't start. I gave them a push to get it moving. Fare thee well, love.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
7. I hope you are both happy.
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:23 PM
Feb 2015

Do you think she knew and didn't tell you that her family would not approve?

rogerashton

(3,918 posts)
10. I think it came out only after we seemed to be getting a bit serious.
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 04:32 PM
Feb 2015

As to happy -- I guesso. 50th anniversary in a few months with the girl who didn't turn me down. Well, not the third time, anyway.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
11. That is very cool. Happy anniversary to you.
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 04:41 PM
Feb 2015

I think those that do what you have done are usually fortunate and to be respected.

I was once dating a Jewish man whose mother absolutely sabotaged the relationship. She just would not tolerate him being with a non-Jew.

OTOH, one of our daughters has married a muslim man. It was very complex, but they are making it work and all parents are on board at this point.

Life is full of complexities.

rogerashton

(3,918 posts)
12. Thankew.
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 05:56 PM
Feb 2015

As I think of it, the fault of misinformation was probably mine, though it was unintentional. The events took place in an area where most people are catholic, and to some ears, I have a catholic-sounding name. I made no secret of my irreligion but did not wear a label.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
13. If the first thing a person said after introduction
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:38 PM
Feb 2015

was a proclamation of religious (non) affiliation, I'd assume s/he was a proseletyzer and discover an urgent need to powder my nose.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
14. Indeed.
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 12:10 PM
Feb 2015

Often it's other more subtle conversation cues dropped early in the conversation, like the words "blessed," or "youth group."

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
15. I can't imagine why anyone would say either thing immediately.
Sat Feb 7, 2015, 01:12 PM
Feb 2015

What relevance do one's beliefs have to a casual acquaintance? I don't volunteer my atheism on meeting someone, nor do I expect them to volunteer such information. It's completely irrelevant.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
16. I never bring up my beliefs unless its part of a conversation, and usually only when someone...
Sat Feb 7, 2015, 02:02 PM
Feb 2015

else asks first.

The last time I had a conversation like that in real life was at work. What happened was that my boss, and a coworker discovered that we were Cradle Catholics, so we immediately had a rather deep conversation about the shortcomings of the Church, some of the practices we participated in, background on the parishes we grew up in, etc.

We actually stuck to this in our conversation, it was mostly lighthearted and rather blasphemous, and the only conclusion you can draw is that at least 2 of us doubted the divinity of Jesus and the existence of God, and that none of us were Catholic anymore.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
18. Not about religion, no...
Sat Feb 7, 2015, 04:46 PM
Feb 2015

My best friend is an ex-Mormon lesbian, my fiancee was raised Catholic, but out of her family, only her maternal Grandparents are practicing Catholics. Her mother is Wiccan, my fiancee is a Christian as in she she goes to a non-denominational church occasionally, but not Catholic. She has an outspoken aunt and uncle who are Atheists. Her father's side is mostly unchurched, I don't know many of their beliefs because no one talks about them.

I have some friends who are Lutheran, Baptist, Atheist or just mostly secular.

On my side of the family, my sister and her husband are Atheists, I know at least 3 cousins are as well, another cousin married a conservative Baptist, another, I think she's still Catholic, but she also married a Jewish divorcee, so not sure anymore. The only one I know is still Catholic is my dad, more so since my mom died. But again, no one talks about it, and being openly religious is considered crass at best.

I remember the culture shock when my cousin's baptist husband lead us in prayer on Thanksgiving, it was awkward.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
21. If you meet one it would be useful to find out why they are.
Sat Feb 7, 2015, 05:29 PM
Feb 2015

Your background would lead to fertile conversations, away from a computer.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
22. Not sure how useful it would be, please bear in mind that pretty much everyone...
Sat Feb 7, 2015, 10:47 PM
Feb 2015

in my family, and my fiancee's family are ex-Catholics. Her grandparents who are still Catholic, are not what you would call tolerable when it comes to either their religion or politics. They are very judgmental and very bigoted. I was actually surprised by this, because my own grandmother was a very religious Catholic who took the opposite route as she grew older, mellowing out and being non-judgmental.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
23. I find it interesting how easily the off switch is flipped.
Sat Feb 7, 2015, 11:19 PM
Feb 2015

There are so many reasons people have for leaving the Catholic Church (although an inordinate amount of them involve run-ins with a priest). Many ex-Catholics became quite easily staunch anti-Catholics although most I know have simply become indifferent.

A friend of mine, who sponsored my son at Confirmation, grew up without religion, became a fervent Catholic during his marriage and left after his divorce when he saw his wife and her boyfriend (the reason for the divorce) go up to receive Communion. He's a really solid guy and we often talk about why he became Catholic and why he left.

Lately, I've noticed a fair amount of people I knew as former Catholics returning. The reasons they tell me vary but it's not the usual, deluded, or cancer-stricken, or fearful, or whatever claptrap du jour is posted here. They to a person are very thoughtful about it and are far from stupid. I've heard sharper criticisms of the Church from them than from any internet site. Yet they come. And they come with good reasons. I always ask them why and they're happy to say.

Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
19. Christian, OK
Sat Feb 7, 2015, 05:04 PM
Feb 2015

I don't see a future as lovers, but friends? Sure.
If someone tells me they're a Jehovah's Witness, then I better exit before I react badly.

carolinayellowdog

(3,247 posts)
20. Which attributes constitute one's "identity"?
Sat Feb 7, 2015, 05:12 PM
Feb 2015

I'd be equally turned off by anyone who on initial acquaintance disclosed his or her "identity" as Christian or atheist, straight or gay, liberal or conservative, etc. Those are attributes, each of which can constitute an identity for some people. But the very fact that someone wants to present an "identity" defined by any such attributes would convey to me that they are shallow, and likely to judge others' "identities" on the basis of selective focus on certain attributes as they are to present themselves in such a light. Same goes for professional qualifications; I was very happy with my career choice but never considered it my identity.

Which is not to advocate for some kind of amorphous identity with the cosmos or humanity. Personally, I identify as an environmentalist far more than as a neopagan, or gay, or progressive, or a literary type. I'm able to respect people of all or no religious beliefs, sexual orientations, or political persuasions-- but cannot respect anyone who doesn't care about the planet as a whole. Which has to do with "identifying" more with all living beings on this planet collectively than with any particular subdivisions of one species.

My apologies to any residents of any other parts of the universe for not caring about them as much.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»Disclosing One's Identity...