Maybe if we had the courage to accept the fact that we're all going to die...

[Viva_Daddy]

...instead of harboring fantasies of "living forever somewhere over the rainbow"...
then we might just have the courage to let others live instead of killing them.

Wouldn't that be better than "immortality"?

[hrmjustin]

1. I want to live forever.

I always think of this song when I thimk about an afterlife.

[Brettongarcia]

4. Critics often suggested that promises of eternal life, Heaven, are the Big Lie in Christianity

They say it is a false promise of pie in the sky. One slyly designed to get the masses to submit to any abuse from their overseers in their lifetime. The people will submit to any abuse, any exploitation from their rulers - since their rulers slyly told them that their suffering will be made up for later. After they are dead. In "heaven."

But were those promises of later rewards in Heaven true? Or just a lie designed to get people to submit to exploitation by their bosses? Surprisingly, there are many suggestions even in the Bible that there is no heaven for people. 1) Jesus said that no once goes up to heaven, except the one that came down from it. 2) The book of Ecclesiastes likewise is notoriously doubtful about any afterlife beyond a shadowy "Sheol." While 3) much of the Bible speaks of a final destruction of Heaven, in fact (Isa. 34.4, 51.6; 2 Peter 3.7-12; Rev. 21).

Then too, science seems to suggest that most promises of miracles, a miraculous afterlife, seem highly doubtful, or even flatly false.

Given all that, many therefore say that the promise of heaven, eternal life, was just a lie; one designed by our rulers to get the people to submit to exploitation here on earth.

[hrmjustin]

5. Critics say a lot of things.

[Brettongarcia]

7. An educated person listens to all major points of view carefully, before making up his own mind.

Unfortunately, most of us were exposed to just one point of view, in Sunday School and church.

[hrmjustin]

8. Are you trying to say something here?

[Brettongarcia]

9. I'm hoping that you will at least consider the critical point of view, for a time

[hrmjustin]

10. Which point of view is that?

[Brettongarcia]

11. One of the more critical elements of a critical view, I just described above

[hrmjustin]

12. And you think I am not capable of this?

[Brettongarcia]

14. Yes I do think you can do this. That is why I am asking you to do it.

What do you make of, for instance, Jesus' apparent statement that no one goes up to heaven, except Jesus himself?

[hrmjustin]

15. So you think I have not done this up until this moment! You think this would be a new thing for me?

[Brettongarcia]

17. So what were your conclusions regarding all that?

What did you make specifically of the Bible's statements on Heaven?

[hrmjustin]

18. Dodging my question?

[Brettongarcia]

20. No. I do think you've thought about this. Would you like to share your thoughts? If not, then not

[hrmjustin]

22. I do not get my faith only from the bible.

You can take verses out of the bible to make a case on almost anything.

[PassingFair]

33. I do NOT want to live forever.

[AtheistCrusader]

2. I do not expect to live forever. I do not wish to.

If circumstances allow, I intend to meet my death on my terms. Build a legacy, on my terms. To do what I can to enable my children to reach, literally, for the stars. Do what I can to ensure they can, if they wish, earn their weight in reaction mass to escape this gravity well.

On average, our bodies work a little under a million hours. I've burned through about 1/3 of that. Time enough left to do what I want with my life. In a sense, the constraint of a deadline gives everything I do, every act of volition, meaning.

I would not trade that for 'forever'.

[Htom Sirveaux]

3. I think that if I try to bring heaven to earth with my life, so to speak,

then I'll be prepared for death whether there is an afterlife or not.

[Brettongarcia]

6. I like that; it's roughly the central point that I and my co-writer make in our book drafts

[Htom Sirveaux]

13. Are you familiar with Richard Rohr, Brian McLaren, or Peter Rollins?

I think you would like their writings. McLaren and Rollins especially have been influenced by postmodernism, and Rohr is a well-known teacher of non-dualism.

[Brettongarcia]

16. Sounds good....

[Htom Sirveaux]

19. Also, try this podcasting website:

http://homebrewedchristianity.com/

Lots of deep thinking there. Sorry if these are too many recommendations (but if you want even more, just say so!).

[BeyondGeography]

26. Frank Lloyd Wright always said it is more beautiful here than heaven could ever be

Nature was his God. Not that he was an unabashed unbeliever, but he was focused on illuminating the beauty that is here. A healthy approach, imo, which I think relates very well to your statement. After all, the earth does possess a stunning beauty. I would miss it when I was floating around that place where nothing ever happens, per David Byrne in Heaven.

[Htom Sirveaux]

31. Even faiths more conservative than Lloyd Wright's UU are starting to get with the program.

Last edited Sun Aug 24, 2014, 02:06 PM - Edit history (1)

N.T. Wright is an anti-gay Anglican bishop, but he's also written about how the afterlife is a perfected Earth that includes everything that is good about right now (and every other time) and just adds on to that.

[cbayer]

21. Accepting that we are all going to die is different than

believing or not believing that there is something after this life.

I know that some people see belief in the afterlife to be a crutch for people who can't accept that they are going to die.

But fact is that most people don't want to die and have a difficult time accepting it, believers and not.

I can't see any connection between believing in an afterlife and the killing of others. Could you elaborate?

[Brettongarcia]

23. Many people are willing to kill, or die themselves in battle, because they believe in an afterlife

[cbayer]

24. That is true. Sometimes their cause is just and sometimes it isn't.

[Brettongarcia]

25. Being THAT willing to kill or die, probably tips the balance a little too early

[Starboard Tack]

27. Not sure it involves courage, but rather common sense, to accept death as a kind of finality.

At least, in terms of a subjective finality. Killing others only makes sense if it is to save more lives than one takes. Dying for a cause only makes sense if that cause is to save more lives than those being sacrificed.
Killing or dying because one thinks they will be rewarded in some afterlife is sick.

[mmonk]

28. I often think of immortality as one's legacy. Otherwise, we are all transient and fleeting.

[Jim__]

29. Did Stalin believe in an afterlife? Did Mao?

I'm not sure why you think lack of belief in an afterlife would put an end to killing.

[Brettongarcia]

30. No one here said that

Though if you are interested? In the time of Hitler, most of Germany was still quite Christian; a common German military belt-buckle proclaimed "God is with us." Then Russia did not attack Germany; Germany attacked Russia. Partially at times, in the name of Christianity. Many German soldiers were willing to attack Russia, and even die; to fight "godless communism."

Stalin by the way, was an ex-seminarian. He had trained to become a (Georgian) Orthodox priest.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

32. Not so much in the name of Christianity

As in the name of anti-communism. And Lebensraum.

[rug]

34. Exactly how would that stop people, armies and nations from killing each other.