Pope Francis and the New Values Debate

[theHandpuppet]

Am just passing along a link to this article, posted online a few hours ago.

Pope Francis and the New Values Debate
http://time.com/3079417/pope-francis-and-the-new-values-debate/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A%20time%2Fideas%20(TIME%20Ideas)

[Htom Sirveaux]

1. From the end of the article...

Pope Francis understands that talk is cheap. Families need more than lofty rhetoric. Serving human dignity and the common good means putting real meat on the bones of our values. “A good Catholic meddles in politics,” the pope said during one of his daily homilies.

Does he, in fact, understand that talk is cheap? If so, how has he shown that understanding since his election?

[No Vested Interest]

2. Too many to mention. He's leading by example.

Lives in a simple room/apartment, drives an older car.
Takes the disabled in his arms and comforts them.
Carries his own luggage.
Mixes regularly with common people, students.
Telephones people who have reached out to him with their problems.
Gives off-the-cuff interviews with press.
Etc., etc., etc.

Papa Frank is not beloved because of his rhetoric, but because he lives out what he proclaims as his values.
And the world sees and recognizes this.

[Htom Sirveaux]

3. Those are all wonderful things, but is that enough, now that he is not just

a priest visiting his sick parishioners? For example, it's great that he thinks that the church should be less focused on culture war issues, but if he doesn't call the USCCB to heel and make them give up their anti-birth control mania, is he not in danger of cheap talk?

Personal popularity and charisma only took President Obama so far, and in the end, he found out that it wasn't enough in the face of an entrenched opposition. It's not clear that Pope Francis would use any of his accumulated popularity to force changes that the rest of the church hierarchy opposed, or that he would even want to.

[No Vested Interest]

4. I take your point re charisma etc. not being enough and

how Pres. Obama's popularity has waned, though, obviously, they are not truly comparable.

Any "entrenched opposition" to Francis numbers only in the hundreds, at most, not a whole, billionaire-funded political party and attendant media.

Then, there's what I will call "the Catholic mind-set", which differs from the allegiance to a political figure in that the Pope is seen as the ultimate earthly Pastor or Shepherd. Although many Catholics differ or even disagree with certain policies, there is at some level the wish or desire to be united, in general.

This leads to a certain patience in waiting out with hope of eventual change as necessary. Not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I guess this is what differentiates Catholics from Protestants, who were not, are not willing to wait it out.

[cbayer]

10. I agree. As I said below, I would love to see him take the USCCB to task for

some of their recent actions. That would go beyond cheap talk.

[MellowDem]

5. Plenty of people do all that and more...

While not ascribing to bigoted dogma, much less leading an institution that treats women as second class, kills millions by spreading poverty through their advocacy against contraception, tries to take away the rights of homosexuals, etc.

What you listed is shallow nonsense compared to the damage the Pope and his institution brings daily to the world.

The Pope is beloved by many because the bar is set so low for Popes, and because of religious privilege, and because many who identify with a bigoted institution but who don't agree with it want any sort of distraction from their embarrassing association with bigotry.

The Pope is a bigoted homophobic misogynist, but I'm supposed to love him because he agrees with me on economics? (Though, for very different reasons). Or because he doesn't act like a total dick all the time? The bar is low. The guy is a bigot, and he fights against my friends and families rights, spreads prejudice and discrimination against those I love, death and misery to million in poverty, and thinks of women as second class.

Religious privilege really brings out the cognitive dissonance on a progressive website.

[rug]

7. Name two world leaders that do.

That would be interesting.

The rest of your whining rhetoric is uninteresting.

[MellowDem]

11. I can name quite a few people that aren't homophobic bigots...

The Pope wouldn't be among them.

I have no idea what your point is. The Pope is a bigot, but he lives more humbly than world leaders? It makes no sense. Who is a "world leader" anyways? Someone that leads countries? Not a good comparison then. The Pope should be compared to other religious leaders. There are quite a few humbly living, bigoted preachers just around here. The Pope has lots in common with them.

[rug]

12. I can name quite a few bigots too. But that's not the question, now is it?

Now rather than retreat into your thicket of uninteresting talking points, name two or stop the bullshit.

[MellowDem]

14. Your question is bullshit...

The idea that living humbly should be enough to look past the prejudice, discrimination, and bigotry the Pope spreads is stupid.

Your point is terrible. I didn't even bring up world leaders, you did, you were the one retreating into a completely irrelevant talking point, trying to shift focus as usual.

Again, I know of bigoted religious leaders all over that live more humbly than any world leader, and yet, I don't admire them for it, because it's about as relevant as the KKK sponsoring highways.

[rug]

15. You brought it up.

Plenty of people do all that and more...

Yes, tu quoque is bullshit. Made more so by your inability to name even two of the "plenty of people".

[MellowDem]

16. "People". Vs "world leaders"....

You're very transparent in your attempts to distract and obfusticate.

[rug]

17. So, do you concede he is the only world leader doing that?

Mujica excepted.

Or are you going to continue to snarl?

[MellowDem]

18. Do you concede many people are more moral than the Pope?

Or are you stuck with your weak attempt at moving goalposts and distract? Can you not address my original point ? You haven't yet.

Do you concede that whether the Pope lives humbly relative to world leaders has nothing to do with the bigotry he preaches and the destruction he causes by fighting against contraceptives and women's rights?

Do you concede your intellectual honesty every time you try to defend a bigoted belief system?

[rug]

19. And that's two questions you are consciously avoiding.

What did you say, "You're very transparent in your attempts to distract and obfusticate."

I see you've opted to snarl. I'll just step back and observe you a while.

[MellowDem]

20. I made a point that your ignoring and deflecting...

And you require me to address your deflections first? You're funny.

[rug]

21. What's funny is your evasion in answering while making accusations of deflection.

Wait, that isn't funny at all.

[skepticscott]

6. And makes sure that all of those

are the subject of photo ops and dispatches to the media. Humility? Hardly...just a well-crafted PR campaign, to hide the fact that the Catholic Church's policies and doctrines are as bigoted as ever.

[rug]

8. You have a gin partner upthread.

[cbayer]

9. I hope he has a serious sit down with the u.s. bishops while he is here.

They appear to me one of the most conservative groups in the RCC right now and not in line with what he is pursuing.

Love to be at that meeting.

[Brettongarcia]

13. He's going to Philadelphia. Home of the most conservative culture warrior of all: Arch. Chaput

An extremely dangerous thing, if you ask me.

Chaput invited him. Sounds like the Godfather to me.