Fox’s Brian Kilmeade: Atheist soldiers don’t need chaplains — ‘just Facetime somebody’

[cbayer]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/13/foxs-brian-kilmeade-atheist-soldiers-dont-need-chaplains-just-facetime-somebody/

By David Edwards
Tuesday, May 13, 2014 14:10 EDT


Fox News host Brian Kilmeade

Fox News host Brian Kilmeade on Tuesday asserted that atheist soldiers did not need non-religious chaplains because they could just “Facetime somebody” on a video chat with their iPhones.

On Tuesday’s edition of Out Numbered, Fox News host Harris Faulkner noted that the Military Association of Atheists and Free Thinkers had planned to request that the Pentagon provide “humanist” chaplains to serve nonbelievers.

“Are we going to have chaplains for vegetarians now?” Faulkner wondered.

Kilmeade opined that non-religious chaplains did not make sense because they could only say, “What ever happens, just know, there is no afterlife.”

more at link

[AtheistCrusader]

1. Hmm.

What total functions does a chaplain serve?

[cbayer]

3. Lots of things. This guy is a bigoted idiot, imo.

One of the primary things they do is provide counseling and often in places and situations where there is no one else to do that.

They also discuss ethics, morality and the kinds of dilemmas that may be presented when in combat.

They perform ceremonies, including weddings, preside over funerals and deal with families who have a lost or wounded soldier.

In short, they do a lot of things that don't have anything to do with religion, per se, and the request to have a humanist or otherwise non-religious category is a very valid one.

[hrmjustin]

2. He is such a fool.

[nil desperandum]

6. fools

He is a self righteous little turd I will give you that. Sometimes I would like to smack that smarmy little smile right off his idiot face...

and that's just wrong of me to think that

[hrmjustin]

7. I dislike him as well.

[nil desperandum]

4. Chaplains

I was a "no pref" dog tag in the military during the 70s.

I didn't need or want a chaplain.

I'm not certain how a chaplain can be atheist as I thought by definition a chaplain was someone in service to a specific religion. One of the basic requirements for acceptance in the Chaplain corps is to be affiliated as a clergy member of your faith.

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/about/requirements.html

Their unit motto is "In service to God and Country" it would seem inappropriate to appoint a godless chaplain. I don't think the military should honor this request. Chaplains are for guidance for spiritual reasons, if you need guidance without spiritual components you need a counselor.

If atheists need a chaplain it would seem that lends credence to those believers who claim that atheism is a belief system similar to religion albeit without a defined deity.

I'm not a believer, but I don't know that I define myself as adhering to any specific principles other than I just don't believe in god anymore than unicorns.

[cbayer]

5. While technically, I think your definition is correct,

military chaplains provide services that are not always available from other sources and don't have a distinct tie to religion.

I am very much in favor of them honoring this request.

Whether one rejects "humanist" as a subgroup within religion or not, non-believers are being denied access to certain things that believers get.

[nil desperandum]

8. Chaplain

Then call it a secular humanist counselor or atheist counselor.

I think it's inappropriate to have the Chaplain Corps deal with non-religious members. The requirement for entry are clear, religious affiliation is a requirement. That immediately bars a non-religious person from joining that component of the military.

It's not any more unfair than determining someone who can't do 20 pull-ups doesn't belong in an airborne training unit.

If you don't possess the appropriate skill set or prerequisites for a certain position in the military you don't belong in that position. Too many civilians think the military should work like the civilian world and that's the worst possible idea one could have.

Allow atheists to see a counselor the same as religious people see a chaplain and there is nothing more to discuss, no need to force the chaplain corps to change it's requirements and accommodate non-believers in their midst.

[cbayer]

9. Perhaps there is a need for a change in the nomenclature.

Humanist Chaplains are actually now a recognized group with specific training and credentials.

http://www.humanistchaplains.org/whatisit

The military has softened their criteria in some areas to recognize that.

There aren't always counselors available in places where this is likely to be chaplains.

I think you may be getting too hung up on the term chaplain. Perhaps there is one that would be more inclusive and not cause offense.

[Lordquinton]

11. or that a man who loves another man can't be a good soldier?

I think it's inappropriate to have a chaplain corps, you know that whole constitution thing church and state and all.

[cbayer]

13. Would not the elimination of the whole core present a 1st amendment issue?

Soldiers have a right to practice their own religion and that often requires the participation of a specific kind of chaplain.

It makes a lot more sense to me to become more inclusive so that the needs of many are served, as opposed to denying everyone something that may be of great benefit and badly needed at times.

[Lordquinton]

16. It's a very tricky issue when you think about it

Having it is a breach, but not having it could also constitute a breach. It could be said that soldiers have to refrain from practicing religion when they are serving. Actually that's a damn good idea, no theism in the military, full stop, avoids all the issues. The easy counter to that is that it breaches the soldiers rights, but to that I would point out that soldiers sign away many rights when they sign up, so one more to bring the military in line with the constitution they are swearing to uphold would not be out of place.

I know that will never happen.

Someone made a point that counselors aren't just counselors, they have a background, and are often religious themselves so that could very easily taint their judgment and ability to help an atheist soldier with an issue. I know the military has a religion problem in it (IE, too many god warriors in it) so it's a very uphill struggle.

[cbayer]

19. I don't agree that having it is a breach.

It doesn't represent a state sponsored religion at all, as they have chaplains from many different religions.

Asking them to refrain from practicing their religion while in the military would clearly be a violation, though, imo. I hope you are not serious about that. At the time when these kids may need, want, value, etc. their religious beliefs, are you really suggesting that they be prohibited from practicing them? There is absolutely nothing about that that upholds the constitution and our founders would roll in their graves at the mere suggestion.

It's clear that you despise all things religious, but I question why you feel it's ok to try to foist your own beliefs on those of others while rightfully rejecting it when they do it.

I have no idea what a "god warrior" is or why this might be a problem.

[Lordquinton]

29. Soldiers give up many rights upon entering the military

including parts of the first, Why is religion more important than, say, privacy, or protection against search and seizure, of free speech.
You also ignored the bit where I said that I know it would never happen and offered a balanced alternative.

You don't have have any idea why "God warriors" would be a problem in our military? Not even a simple thought process about the word to think what it might entail?

[cbayer]

30. Because religion is a constitutionally guaranteed right.

You know, 1st amendment and all that.

Should we revoke it?

I was once told by a CO the following: "If we had wanted Private Smith to have a wife, we would have issued him one", after I relayed a concern to him.

I guess you are talking about evangelicals and other proselytizers Or are you talking about people who go to war because they think god wants them to, like W did.

I asked because I did not know, not because I am not capable of simple thought.

[Lordquinton]

31. Free speech is a constitutionally guaranteed right

So is freedom from government search and seizure, why is religion any different?

Why is it we're suddenly discussing part of what I said (Including personal attacks) instead of the subject at hand? My extreme was in response to another extreme which didn't seem too bad to a lot of people, and I even had almost the exact same response you did (which was kinda freaky, glad we're back to arguing now ) but somehow my idea of a secular military was offensive to you, why is that?

[okasha]

15. One of the problems here

is that going to a "counselor" carries a stigma in the military. Going to a "chaplain" doesn't. Atheists shouldn't be penalized for needing the same sort of support as other soldiers.

[nil desperandum]

17. Chaplains

Guys who needed to see the chaplain were considered a bit weak minded as well, at least from what I saw in the 70s in the infantry. They were often considered malingerers or malcontents or people who needed to be separated from service.

Going to services was a sign of strength of character, needing to see the chaplain during the week was seen as weakness of character. That was just my experience yours might have been different.

You are right on about counselors carrying a stigma for troops who use them.

Of course with Chandler changing the tattoo rules to aid in the RIF right now anything can carry a stigma and be cause for separation so the Army can hose the troops they so desperately needed and used just a couple of years ago.

Ray Chandler as SMA is a clown and a complete tool who is taking a giant dump on the troops right now. It's disgusting and it lends credence to those who don't trust the military and its' organizational structure.

[cbayer]

20. Gee, maybe the stigma of being considered weak minded, a malingerer or malcontent is

one of the reasons that the suicide rates among returning soldiers is so alarmingly high.

I hope that you are not one of those guys that would carry on that tradition.

[nil desperandum]

21. Traditions

The tradition I am most interested in carrying on is the qualification standards to complete the mission defined by MOS.

If you seek care, like it or not, your career or re-enlistment options are going to be affected as the military's mission can be compromised by someone with mental health issues whether intentionally or not and the military has a valid concern regarding personnel readiness when mental health issues are brought into question.

The military is not a civilian manufacturing or office environment. A mental health issue in a civilian office environment might result in a monthly report not being created in a timely fashion. A mental health issue in combat environment can get someone killed either in the military or the civilian population within the military AO.

Someone identified as having issues that create a risk factor will be evaluated, stigma or not. It's not fair but it is appropriate.

Perhaps before starting our next war we can consider whether or not multiple deployments to combat zones is really the most effective method of conducting foreign policy matters. I suspect it is not efficient or terribly effective as seen by the resulting turmoil in Iraq and Afghanistan, both nations will return to the quagmires they were before we entered them. Karzai won't last 6 months after the US leaves and the Taliban will be right back in control of that nation. Not a very effective use of troops at all.

I wish this were a simple issue, but it is not. Treating returning veterans brings the suicide rate down dramatically and that's when most will seek treatment, after they leave service.

Hopefully they will receive treatment in a timely fashion and when they don't maybe the CiC can remove the man responsible instead of praising his incompetent leadership.

[cbayer]

22. Yet another reason why those with psychiatric or psychological issues avoid getting the

help they need.

Would you accept the same standard for someone with diabetes? Hypertension? A seizure disorder?

What you suggest leads people to hide or deny what they are experiencing. If you don't agree that it should be stigmatized, then I would suggest that you do what you can to prevent that instead of promoting it.

The stigma remains after deployment. Not only do many veterans not seek treatment because of the stigma, but the VA has an abysmal record of making those services available.

[nil desperandum]

24. other conditions

Those conditions you identify would eliminate you for consideration in service to the nation, therefore they would carry a stigma for military service and would probably be hidden by someone trying to serve.

I am not suggesting the stigma is a good thing at all, I am attempting to explain why it occurs and why it will always occur. Any factor that eliminates you as a candidate for service will be hidden by someone attempting to serve if that individual really wishes to serve. Once discovered those conditions can lead to separation, that's my only point.

I agree the VA has done a terrible job but I have not seen anyone in authority actually held accountable, Shinseki is a terrible manager and borderline incompetent. That he still has a job makes me wonder if he has pictures of the president with a farm animal or something. I have no idea why he would be kept on as he has failed to make every milestone that he set for himself.

[cbayer]

26. Why do you assume that it will always remain a stigma?

It doesn't have to.

Agree that nobody has been held responsible for the utterly shameful way the VA and the military has addressed the problem of post-service psychiatric disorders.

[nil desperandum]

27. Stigma

I think it will because is serious enough it's a reason for separation.

With the current SMA Chandler tattoos below the elbow, knee, or above the neckline are reasons for separation unless they were there prior to the rule. People who like serving usually want to continue, they understand what needs to be done to stay or get ahead. Perceptions of inadequacy due to mental health issues will remain a concern. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

[nil desperandum]

23. Clarification

To be fair the suicides of veterans are dominated by veterans who haven't served in any post 9/11 combat situation. 70% or 15 of the 22 a day figure often used to identify the epidemic of veterans killing themselves are over 50 and did not serve within the last 14 years.

That might be more indicative of a problem with veterans not dissimilar to other males over 50 in the civilian population, and while tragic is not necessarily an epidemic. Forbes has some pretty good points on this as does the LA Times and when i find the links I will gladly share them with you.

I think it is a shame that any one feels killing themselves is the best option but an alarmingly high rate is not an accurate assessment of the reality.

[LuvNewcastle]

10. It seems that the first question I'd have to ask is, what is the difference between

a generic counselor and a chaplain? I'm not an atheist, but I am a humanist, and I'd say that the difference would be the approach the counselor takes when confronted with a particular experience a soldier might have. Counselors can be of any religion. Your counselor might be a Catholic, Jew, Muslim, etc., so he/she would put his own worldview's spin on whatever advice he might give. A specifically atheist and/or humanist chaplain would approach a subject with a worldview that an atheist/humanist soldier would value more.

I, for one, probably wouldn't benefit as much from the advice of a fundie counselor. I would suspect that there might be some subtle propaganda hidden in the advice I was given. I'm not saying that I have nothing whatsoever to learn from someone who is fundamentalist Christian, Muslim, or whatever. We all have things to learn from one another, but I am frankly suspicious about any advice I'm given from someone whose worldview is so radically different from my own.

So I think it would be a good idea for atheists/humanists to have their own chaplains. The purpose of having chaplains is to serve the needs of soldiers, whether or not they specifically think of those needs as spiritual. I've known quite a few veterans who are atheist, so I know there must be a lot of active duty people who are atheists, and I'd like to see that their needs are met while they're serving our country. I suspect that the reason why many religious people would object to atheist chaplains is because they would like to see atheists forced to go to religious chaplains, and possibly bring about conversions while those soldiers are serving in difficult and stressful situations.

[cbayer]

12. I think the role of chaplain is more comprehensive and often more directive.

Performing ceremonies (weddings, funerals), giving lectures, providing counseling to both soldiers and their families. They are sometimes available when an ordinary counselor might not be.

So they are more than a counselor.

I think one of the things that the non-believers have objected to, and rightfully so, is that under the current system, all of the chaplains have a clear religious connection. Some feel alienated by this or cut off from things that other soldiers can take advantage of.

I am with you in support of this request from the atheist organization.

[frylock]

14. “Are we going to have chaplains for vegetarians now?”

why not? they have Chaplains for shit-eaters like these tools, don't they?

[edhopper]

18. *

[nil desperandum]

25. nice!

Thanks for the reminder of times long past!

[randys1]

28. More proof conservatives hate soldiers

That god damn smug fucking look on that god damn smug asshole, how much you want to bet he did NOT serve in the military?

anybody?

I dont know if he did, I assume he didnt, and I KNOW he hates soldiers, but all cons do when you get right down to it...

If you are a con and you claim you dont hate them, then I presume you are willing to pay MORE in taxes to take care of them, if so then I apologize to you.

[arely staircase]

32. complete moran

if there are enough atheists who want a chaplain, give them one.