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Thu Aug 8, 2013, 02:57 PM

Why does a discussion of racism (as it relates to black Americans) always dissolve . . .

Into a discussion about ALL the many ways whites Americans, Canadian Americans, Europeans to Europeans were ALSO treated?

Reference this 350 reply thread (at the time of this posting)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023422027

I'm not just talking about at DU - I'm talking in general - in the entire world. But that's one example.

Why most NON African Americans - folks outside of the 'slave ancestor experience' always DIMINISH our experience with ancient 'Tribal' fights amongst Europeans? Why not start a new thread for those discussions?

Is it yet another form of subtle racism/white supremacy? I.E. - Another case of "I can't honor YOUR experience at all let alone see HOW we are different and HOW your life/race experience in America has shaped you because well - I'm Dominant So There!"


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Reply Why does a discussion of racism (as it relates to black Americans) always dissolve . . . (Original post)
JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 OP
kestrel91316 Aug 2013 #1
JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #3
kestrel91316 Aug 2013 #7
Tarheel_Dem Aug 2013 #26
bravenak Aug 2013 #2
Number23 Aug 2013 #11
bravenak Aug 2013 #13
Adam051188 Aug 2013 #4
Squinch Aug 2013 #5
noiretextatique Aug 2013 #12
Squinch Aug 2013 #16
noiretextatique Aug 2013 #23
Squinch Aug 2013 #25
noiretextatique Aug 2013 #32
TM99 Aug 2013 #6
JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #9
TM99 Aug 2013 #18
noiretextatique Aug 2013 #24
TM99 Aug 2013 #27
JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #29
TM99 Aug 2013 #30
JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #33
TM99 Aug 2013 #34
JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #35
TM99 Aug 2013 #36
noiretextatique Aug 2013 #31
TM99 Aug 2013 #37
4Q2u2 Aug 2013 #8
JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #10
4Q2u2 Aug 2013 #14
NOLALady Aug 2013 #15
4Q2u2 Aug 2013 #17
M Kitt Aug 2013 #19
BainsBane Aug 2013 #20
1StrongBlackMan Aug 2013 #21
BainsBane Aug 2013 #22
OneGrassRoot Aug 2013 #28
1StrongBlackMan Aug 2013 #38
OneGrassRoot Aug 2013 #39
1StrongBlackMan Aug 2013 #40
OneGrassRoot Aug 2013 #41
JRLeft Aug 2013 #42
JustAnotherGen Aug 2013 #43

Response to JustAnotherGen (Original post)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 03:02 PM

1. It's racist, and not even subtle. Basic RW talking point. If somebody does this on DU, it's

alert-worthy IMHO.

ETA: I'm white, and even I get offended by it.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 03:08 PM

3. kestrel

Check out some of the subthreads on that link. Don't get me wrong - especially coming from an Irish background from both of my parents - I DO 'get' it. Have jewish in my mother's bloodline and lately? French blood which took a hit the first decade of this century.

But I'll have those convos amongst those I share that commonality with in THAT frame of reference.

It also touches on (your RW talking point - point) - how much the Right Wing has convinced so many white Americans of many ethnic groups. . . just how bad they have it as a result of the actions of "THOSE PEOPLE". They've fed them this b.s. and they've eaten it up. They have effectively brainwashed a segment of America into believing that in the context of American history - White Americans had it the Absolute Worst.

I'm convinced of it.

And I'm glad you weighed in - because you have a habit of often making very good points.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #3)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 03:25 PM

7. TYVM - my parents raised me to be sensible AND give a hoot about other people.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #1)

Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:46 PM

26. +1

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Original post)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 03:04 PM

2. White mans burden.

They are ever so beleaguered.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 06:25 PM

11. You just won the thread. NAILED IT

"white man's burden" aka "white man's privilege"

But at least we haven't gotten the "hey, I know what it means to be discriminated against. I had long hair in 9th grade and for THREE WHOLE WEEKS people treated me like shit!1!"

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Response to Number23 (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 09:22 PM

13. They had the GOOD GRACE to rescue us savages from savage Africa and we have the nerve to

complain. They taught us good work ethics on the plantation, how to respect your betters, and to be good Christians. And we don't even appreciate tem allowing us to be Americans. We need to shape up. Or they're crazy.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Original post)


Response to JustAnotherGen (Original post)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 03:22 PM

5. I think in that thread it was because the OP was

suggesting that white people need to accept being called "crackers" and "STFU" because we don't share the black experience.

I personally don't accept that.

I don't minimize the black experience. I don't try and one-up with my nationality's difficulties.

But nor do I accept that anyone has the right to call me a cracker, any more than I have the right to call a black person the N word.

Neither is OK.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 07:53 PM

12. are you offended by trayvon martin's use of the term "cracker" to describe zimmerman?

that creepy ass cracker? i think the article in question was a response to that incident, and the whining by people who would have also shot trayvon about black people "injecting race into the discussion."
question: has any person of color called YOU a cracker?

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #12)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 10:51 PM

16. No, because he was being pursued and was upset. The OP was not.

The issue is not whether I was being called a cracker, the issue was that the OP is saying that I need to STFU if someone does call me a cracker because I do not understand the black experience.

This is patent bullshit.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #16)

Wed Aug 14, 2013, 07:51 PM

23. i think you are taking it a bit too seriously

to be honest.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #23)

Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:05 PM

25. That's nice, dear.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #25)

Thu Aug 15, 2013, 12:16 PM

32. has any black person or latino or asian or indian...ever...called you a cracker?

if so, i get your point. if not: is your point? you are upset because someone random internet poster claimed you don't have the right to challenge something that hasn't happened to you, and probably never will.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Original post)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 03:24 PM

6. I would hazard a guess

that it is because if that thread is representative of a 'discussion on racism' then people need to seriously work on their communication skills.

The original post is a Facebook meme that starts out 'Dear whiney white people.' That's not a discussion. That is a flamebait, and apparently trolling as the OP never seems to return to the thread to reply to anyone.

Conflict resolution can involve the airing of deep hurts, resentments, and rage, however, it doesn't involve name-calling, baiting, and then holier than thou questioning of why can't the conflicts be discussed rationally after the fact.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 05:48 PM

9. We have lots of

Rationale discussions in this group. But I suspect folks don't want to participate due to the discomfort of having the mirror held up.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #9)

Fri Aug 9, 2013, 05:55 AM

18. That may well be true for this forum

however, that other OP in the other forum was not rational.

Discomfort is one thing. Antagonism just to be antagonistic is quite another.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #6)

Wed Aug 14, 2013, 07:54 PM

24. poor white people

there was another post here recently about "white kids gone wild." it was a parody of the screeds of o'reilly and other white race pundits. white people didn't like that either. i suppose the point being: if you wish to engage in discussion, you cannot assume you can set the terms of the debate.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #24)

Thu Aug 15, 2013, 03:20 AM

27. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, eh?

This works both ways you know.

If someone, who may have legitimate grievances and issues, approaches you with rage and insults, how open to rational discussion will you be? Will you be aware enough to recognize they are just raging and it may not directly be about you personally? Will you be aware enough and patient enough not to respond hostilely in return? Will you be cognizant enough to try and carry on a rational discussion with that person with empathy even though they are attacking you and berating you? I doubt very much so, as there is such a thing as good communication and bad communication.

The former can lead to resolution of even the most difficult of conflicts. The later is just dominance games with primates flinging their shit back and forth at each other.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #27)

Thu Aug 15, 2013, 09:24 AM

29. Excuse me

Are you implying that noiretextatique is illiterate? Has the reading comprehension of a 5 year old. Is child like and needs to be 'educated' by you?

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, eh?

This works both ways you know.

If someone, who may have legitimate grievances and issues, approaches you with rage and insults, how open to rational discussion will you be? Will you be aware enough to recognize they are just raging and it may not directly be about you personally? Will you be aware enough and patient enough not to respond hostilely in return? Will you be cognizant enough to try and carry on a rational discussion with that person with empathy even though they are attacking you and berating you? I doubt very much so, as there is such a thing as good communication and bad communication.

The former can lead to resolution of even the most difficult of conflicts. The later is just dominance games with primates flinging their shit back and forth at each other.


We don't do that in this group. We don't speak/write down to people. And nope - I better not be 'alerted on' for responding to you. This is a protected 'group'. Not GD.

Regarding This:
If someone, who may have legitimate grievances and issues, approaches you with rage and insults, how open to rational discussion will you be? Will you be aware enough to recognize they are just raging and it may not directly be about you personally? Will you be aware enough and patient enough not to respond hostilely in return? Will you be cognizant enough to try and carry on a rational discussion with that person with empathy even though they are attacking you and berating you? I doubt very much so, as there is such a thing as good communication and bad communication.


My husband has a theory - and it's in regards to the 'Angry Black Woman' stereotype . . . we have been spoken down to, dismissed and told ALL KINDS OF THINGS ABOUT US BY OUTSIDERS -

That the outsiders (of our culture and gender) can't handle the truth when we finally RIGHTEOUSLY explode.

We've sat down and shut up and taken one for many teams in America for many years . . . no wonder we are angry.

It takes a white guy from Italy to figure this out about America. How freaking sad.


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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #29)

Thu Aug 15, 2013, 12:10 PM

30. I am implying nothing.

Why would I alert on you? You have strong emotions about the subject.

Angry is fine. Anger is a healthy expression of pain and assists us in moving to a place of healing that pain. Rage, on the other hand, does not. Starting a discussion on racism by calling either party 'crackers' or 'niggers' is not about anger. It is about rage which gets none of us anywhere.

I stated clearly that noiretextatique did not read my post accurately. I may indeed have knowledge that this person lacks especially as my field professionally does involve communication plus I understand quite well the differences between anger and rage. Being an 'authority' on something based on education & experience does not necessarily mean being an 'authoritarian'.

When we rage, it really doesn't accomplish a damned thing. Sure, we think it feels good to let it out - to just explode - 'righteously' even on occasion. I can't think of a single human being, young or old, rich or poor, of any race, creed, or sexual orientation, who hasn't felt so wronged that they wanted to explode in hurt and rage. But all too often it just hurts us further. We say and do things that we often regret. Things said can never be unsaid. Things done can never be undone.

You have probably made assumptions about me, and that is fine. You don't know me outside of what I choose to share & generally online I am as private as I can be. I know discrimination well. I am multi-racial. I don't look 'white' enough to be 'white'. I don't look 'black' enough to be 'black'. I know hurt and rage growing up as a boy in the south this way.

I know how my hurt led to such rage that I did stupid things - the 'angry black man' syndrome if you will. I hurt others who had nothing to do with what I experienced or my father and mother experienced or their parents before me. But I grew up. I got a lot of therapy. I learned about honor and discipline in the Army. I became a psychologist. I also became an entrepreneur and tech guy against many stereotypes of who or what I should be or become.

Yes, this is a protected group, and after what I have experienced and learned, I would still speak as passionately as I am about how to really 'communicate' with others about racism, discrimination, etc. without rancor, rage, and 'dominance games' here as I would elsewhere. I am hopefully welcome to do so though it may challenge some who are still seething in their rage and hurt. If not, that is fine.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #30)

Thu Aug 15, 2013, 12:20 PM

33. You stated it clearly

And you did it in a dismissive, snotty, and back handed tone. And you wouldn't alert on me - but I betcha $50 a few of the uh - well - let's say - wolves in sheeps clothing would.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #33)

Thu Aug 15, 2013, 12:47 PM

34. Forum discussions

can be very difficult. While a certain degree of tone is conveyed in this medium. Often being confident and expressing decisively can be perceived as being dismissive and snotty. I have no problem owning that.

No I am definitely a wolf. If you want to argue with me, I am fine with that. I might teach you something. You will certainly teach me something. Screw 'alerting' just because it is a difficult, painful, or even a heated discussion. We are all adults here.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #34)

Thu Aug 15, 2013, 01:24 PM

35. You know

I've been an Admin of a site (support/site)/founding member for 12 years -

At that site - our TOS is very firm - and it's one I adhere to everywhere because frankly - it's stellar.

That said - what was written was an an actual edit/delete we did last week. Those specific words. It's considered a 'personal attack'. I actually logged onto the mod board there because we had a new mod trying to manage the edit.

In that group - we have regular get togethers and the women have all formed IRL friendships off the boards. It's not just a 'web forum' - because we demand respect.

Give respect - get respect.

And choose your words carefully.

BTW - Pssss - 'wolves' tend to be white males who are trolling DU and pretending to be black Americans. If private messages could talk . . .

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #35)

Thu Aug 15, 2013, 01:59 PM

36. I don't spend a lot of time

on too many forums.

I was not aware that 'wolves' meant that in this context. As I said, you can't really know much about me on a somewhat anonymous forum. It saddens me constantly that people pretend to be so different online than in real life.

I have no problem with giving respect in order to get respect. And I still don't back down easily if told do so impolitely.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #27)

Thu Aug 15, 2013, 12:12 PM

31. i can read just fine...i can even read through the lines

and i understand you perfectly. once again: YOU don't get to set the terms of the debate, and if that is so bothersome to you: tough.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #31)

Thu Aug 15, 2013, 02:03 PM

37. Offering that one form of communication

is useful while another is useless was my point from my very first post I made in this discussion. Approaching people from the start by insulting them is generally not a good way to start a discussion nor to come to a valuable conclusion within one.

And apparently, like the original OP in that other thread, you are now telling me that I should 'shut the fuck up' and accept it.

You did not approach my post with respect. Why should I give you respect in return?

I won't argue with you further, however, you also do not get to set the terms of the debate.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Original post)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 03:26 PM

8. It was right to fight the OP

It was bigoted and has no business in a discussion of ideas. It was one class of people telling another to STFU base solely on their skin color, that their life experiences do not count unless they meet some other person criteria. Unacceptable.

Some of the sub threads did veer off into my pain is greater than your pain. That is not where the argument should have led. It should have simply been labeled for what it was (bigotry) and exposed for creating an environment counter to progress. We have to be willing to work together as we are, not as who you want me, them, others to be.

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Response to 4Q2u2 (Reply #8)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 05:58 PM

10. Fight? Or discuss?

Where does the anger of the Facebook copy/paste come from?


Fight the core of the anger?

Or discuss what has caused this total disconnect of a segment of black America that is sick and tired and alienated from the rest of America?

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #10)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 09:57 PM

14. Fight the notion

Last edited Fri Aug 9, 2013, 12:47 AM - Edit history (1)

That denigrating other races is acceptable. That ones anger is not a valid reason to hurt others.
Fight the notion that a person is not able to define themselves and others can based only on skin color.
Fight the notion that all races are one big monolith and all in that group should be treated the same. l

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Response to 4Q2u2 (Reply #14)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 10:42 PM

15. Do you want to discuss

the reason for the anger directed at the FB Post?

Or do you want to teach anger management to those who had problems with the OP?

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Response to NOLALady (Reply #15)

Fri Aug 9, 2013, 12:46 AM

17. Case by Case

Some of the anger directed at the Facebook post pretty clearly spelled out why they were mad. People do not like to be called racist or be associated as in any way as being racist. Others who did the my life sucks worse than yours attitude could use some introspection. It can be a kind of denial. Others who used this approach seemed to think that it was shield to hold up against themselves almost to insulate them from criticism.

In my personal instance I just asked heaven 05 to judge me from my deeds, and that calling me a cracker mistakenly labeled me as someone who harbored ill will to African Americans. He and I did discuss our issues back and forth and came away speaking to each other as individuals, a better understanding and respect for each other. That is and always has been my main point. Treat me as me, I will treat you as you and then we can move together creating something better one person at a time. Educating each other making each other better.

Trying to segregate people into monoliths of color will not solve the problems facing us. That post did just that. Saying that is not me trying to ignore slavery, jim crow, or all the other indignities that minorities do and have faced in this country. Calling me a cracker is a false characterization and defending oneself against slurs is just a basic principle. It was surprising that defending ones character and honor would be viewed in a negative light.

Some definitely could have used anger management, but me not being perfect I have to say there have been days when I have lost my temper as well. I have made a promise to myself to strive to be a better man everyday. When will I be done? When they shovel the dirt on my face.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Original post)

Fri Aug 9, 2013, 03:52 PM

19. Nice topic JAG.

Recommended of course.

RE the thread you posted regarding the original "Dear Whiny White People", think you're correct per the opening remarks, a large segment of white America doesn't want to be reminded of our National history of Slavery or following institutionally supported practices of Discrimination.

Those same "willfully ignorant" people seem to be following in the footsteps of the "Ayn Rand" crowd, take that same completely selfish perspective, don't want responsibility for the welfare of anyone else.

Think I'll post the rest of my remarks elsewhere since they'd otherwise be lost in the general confusion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1186249#post1

Thanks again JAG

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2013, 07:09 AM

20. Okay, I know you all deal with this stuff all the time

but being white I have the luxury of not encountering as much absolute stupidity on racism as you all do. I, however, happened to post about the Swiss government's apologizing to Oprah about the purse incident. This is one of the responses I got, on this site from a supposed Democrat.

I would like to know more about the encounter. I don't know if it would have anything to do with race, because the President of the United States is Black. You actually believe she would have told the President or First lady the samething? How about famous Athletes such as Michael Jordan or entertainers, like a JayZ or Beyonce? Oprah herself is very well known as a celebrity. She is leaving something out. I could see if it was a lesser known person. The very wealthy have a World of their own and don't mix with us ordinary folks. Maybe the employee honestly didn't know her and Oprah should have told her. Maybe the owners should have assisted their special VIP.




That denial is so incredible, it doesn't even make sense. It couldn't be racism because if the clerk had recognized Oprah she wouldn't have assumed she couldn't afford a luxury handbag.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #20)

Sat Aug 10, 2013, 10:06 AM

21. Exactly ...

That denial is so incredible, it doesn't even make sense. It couldn't be racism because if the clerk had recognized Oprah she wouldn't have assumed she couldn't afford a luxury handbag.


I hope you pointed out: the clerk NOT recognizing Oprah AND assuming that she could afford the luxury bag, is pretty much the definition of prejudice and racism; and further, the posters excuse, if the clerk had only known that negro is a special negro, rich enough to be served, doesn't help matters as it indicates that negroes must be special to be served.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #21)

Sat Aug 10, 2013, 07:29 PM

22. Yes, I did

I don't have the stomach to read the reply. I am not in a suffering fools mood today.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Original post)

Thu Aug 15, 2013, 06:21 AM

28. I don't know why, but I've observed the same pattern...everywhere...

It drives me insane.

Nowadays it's as though most interactions are not real discussions, with LISTENING, a back-and-forth conversation, and HONESTY (I firmly believe most people have a really hard time being introspective and honest with themselves, let alone other people.)

I thought it was mainly an online phenomenon, but it seems interactions IRL have now been impacted by the same dynamic of people being consumed by broadcasting their opinions rather than listening to others.

Instead of taking time to consider that there may be something to be gleaned from what someone else is saying, their energy is put into how they're going to respond and debate.

I usually come away feeling as though I'm the one who is batshit crazy.

But, really...

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #28)

Thu Aug 15, 2013, 09:10 PM

38. You dont know why?

I can answer that in two words: white supremacy, i.e., I get to control the discussion.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #38)

Fri Aug 16, 2013, 07:13 AM

39. I get it as it concerns white people...

especially heterosexual, Christian white people.

But I've seen POC -- Hispanic, Eastern Indian -- do the same as it concerns racism against black people here in the US.

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #39)

Fri Aug 16, 2013, 08:31 AM

40. And, Black folks directed at other, others ...

mimic well.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #40)

Fri Aug 16, 2013, 08:57 AM

41. Point taken. :) n/t

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 01:12 PM

42. It just happened again in the SF jail's population is 56% black.

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Response to JRLeft (Reply #42)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 03:03 PM

43. I saw

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023497352

And even the one who is not 'removed' - doesn't get that a white man smokes a joint in front of a cop -

Gets a pat on the head and sent on his way.

A black teenager thinks about what pot he is going to buy his mom for mother's day - and he gets 5 years hard time.

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