This message was self-deleted by its author

[JustAnotherGen]

This message was self-deleted by its author (JustAnotherGen) on Sun Sep 11, 2016, 03:02 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Schema Thing]

1. hmmm, I live it, but I don't agree that anyone not living it shouldn't comment; and

I think that Sam Hain has a valid point in that thread. Black men in a relationship, especially a sexual relationship, with white women, enrages what passes for the racist mind far more than Blk female/Wht male relationships would.


That aside, you had a beautiful wedding and your love does shine through!

[JustAnotherGen]

2. How do you know

It doesn't enrage black men when black women are with white men?

Guess what - I've lived it. I've had more issues from the black community and the 'sidelong glances' than I have by white America.

And I think that poster's thinking is shitty.

And I'll say it as much as I want. That ilk be it black or white can go Cheney itself.

[DLnyc]

3. Yes, I agree

A lot of people got their shackles up in that thread, and I do think his point was put in a pretty crude way. I certainly don't fault anyone for having strong and sensitive feelings on a subject like this -- I myself have gotten upset at even close relatives on the same general subject. And the first time I saw that thread I just read a few lines and then decided to skip it, since the tone was a bit over the top for me. I only went back later to see what the fuss was about.

But I do feel it is a reasonable question someone could ask: isn't there a long history of extreme racist reaction to black male/white female relations (be they profoundly loving and caring or be they purely physical)? For example, I've seen many horrible pictures of black men lynched in the US but I don't recall ever seeing one of a black woman lynched. I don't know, really, what predominates in the minds of today's racists. And it is interesting that the poster here experienced the opposite side of this. Theoretically, it could be constructive to learn more about the question of to what extent white racists are more enraged by the existence of black male/white female relationships (loving or otherwise) than by other mixed-race relations. Or possibly it could be a big waste of time trying to see into the white racist mind, I don't really know. But I do think that thread, for whatever reasons, dramatically failed to get anywhere near a rational discussion of this question.

And I absolutely agree that that was a beautiful wedding and their love really does shine through!

Some people say love conquers all. I like to think that it is true.

[Number23]

4. I think the thread failed because the OP has some very questionable ideas of what constitutes

a relationship.

He pretended to play Devil's Advocate by saying "this is what racists think about interracial relationships' including his needless description of white men as "conquerors penetrating black women". His posts within the thread let it be known fairly clearly that it wasn't just the racists he was caricaturing who felt that way. He was the one minimizing interracial relationships to "who people sleep with" which is a racist portrayal.

His refusal to accept that the American media is FAR more likely to depict an interracial couple (black/white) as black man/white woman also screwed his credibility. How anyone feels that the media portrays black woman/white man more than black man/white woman is either in some deep denial or is just deliberately trying to start some shit.

Historically black men were lynched for looking at white women, but many were also lynched for trying to start their own businesses, talking back to white men or any myriad of "crimes". There is a deep, primeval fear in the heart of some white men of what will happen if white women start to marry too many black men. Hell alot of sisters ain't happy about it either, to be honest. But the idea that racists have a problem with bm/ww while smiling happily at bw/wm is just BS. But even still, none of that explains why that person was so hell bent on pretending that the media doesn't portray bm/ww about ten times more than it portrays bw/wm. It was an idiotic OP.

[Number23]

8. I'll still post my response even though you self-deleted

How would you quantify such a thing even if you were interested in doing so?

"Do many racists have a MUCH GREATER problem with couples with a black man and a white woman, than with the reverse?"

I personally don't think this is a thing that can be correctly measured. And more importantly, I don't think it's anything that SHOULD be measured.

If someone is a racist which in essence means that they believe in the inherent superiority of one race and the inherent inferiority of others, why would anyone suppose that either of these combinations (bm/ww, bw/wm) would be met positively? It would be much more likely to conclude that racists of all stripes would not look fondly on either one of these combinations. Hence my comment that racists having a problem with bm/ww while beaming happily at bw/ww is utter BS. Yes, black men have been perceived as threats, they are STILL perceived as threats as even the most casual reading of the FBI hate crimes stats and case studies on racial discrepancies in prison sentences still go. But black women have never been embraced by this country either as even the most casual glance at this nation's media will provide, including the absolute and utter dearth of black women portrayed in the media as objects of love and admiration -- a point the OP of that other thread simply refused to acknowledge no matter how many times it was put before him.

But that was not the point of that OP. The OP's point was that somehow it was 'less upsetting' to racists to portray an interracial relationship featuring a black woman/white man because the white man would be perceived as the "conqueror" "penetrating" and "shtupping" the black woman. How is that not offensive? Even removing the OPs tasteless posts within the thread, how is what he's saying not anything more than equating interracial relationships to the simple act of fornication? Sure, initially he made it seem as though he was simply "relaying" what racists out there in the Great Beyond think about these types of relationships but it became fairly obviously rather quickly that he had his own issues with interracial relationships himself.

And no, I'm not really trying to convince you of anything so I'm glad that you took that point. All I can do as a black woman in an interracial marriage is explain why that OP and that entire line of thinking is offensive. You do with that what you will.

[DLnyc]

9. I absolutely sympathize with your feeling

When you say "All I can do as a black woman in an interracial marriage is explain why that OP and that entire line of thinking is offensive," I totally agree and accept and absolutely respect your point.

I was in the middle of writing a substitute for my self-deleted post when I saw this post.

I guess I am having trouble responding because a) there are some issues that I care about very deeply here and b) you seem to be making two separate points and I'm having trouble separating them.

Again I will say I 100% empathize and feel you are justified with taking extreme offense at the attitudes and tactics of that poster.

But I don't think it is helpful to mix this up with the separate point, of which configurations of interracial couples might or might not be more likely to enrage white racists. It's not super clear to me whether you and I agree on this point or not, since you seem to make arguments on both sides. I don't mind if we disagree, and, like you, I'm not completely sure it is either possible or useful to know just how certain racists think.

The point I would really like to make, though, is that I wish people on DU in general would make a little more effort to separate their personal reactions to people (whether entirely justified or not) from the validity of things those people say.

Briefly, I agree with you that that poster was being highly offensive and I feel you have every right to be angry and outraged. But I DON'T agree with you, or at least I'm not sure I agree with you, on the subject of whether a lot of American white racists have a much greater problem with relationships that involve a white man and a black woman than they do with other interracial relationships. And, perhaps most important, I absolutely support your right to have either opinion on either question, but I think it would be more conducive to productive discussion if we could all try to separate these kind of (highly justified, in this case) personal feelings about someone who may have SUGGESTED an idea, from the question of whether the IDEA ITSELF might or might not be valid.

From the substitute post I was trying to write:

Thanks for letting me express that, I hope I don't aggravate any wounds here. This kind of issue is actually kind of important to me -- I really want to try to understand how it might be possible to have more constructive conversations on these kinds of internet environments.

Peace,
--DLnyc

PS: Thank you for taking the time to answer, I appreciate your feedback.

[Number23]

11. If racists have more problems with bm/ww relationships

Then why are these BY FAR the predominant interracial (black/white) relationships that we see in American media? What is the crux of this view that bm/ww relationships are so much more offensive than other interracial relationships?

From Guess Who's Coming to Dinner to Ally McBeal to LA Law to ER to Sex and the City to Beverly Hills 90210 etc. et. etc. it's black man/white woman followed closely by black man/non-black woman. Hell even on Community, one of my favorite shows right now, I have never ONCE seen Troy or Abed (both brown male characters) express any interest in a woman that was not white.

For every show/movie that depicts it the other way around, there are five that show bm/ww. Is there an element of sexism in all of this fear of white women hooking up with non-white men? I would say most likely. And it probably stems from the perspective of powerful white males that white women "belong" to white men. Not being a white man, I honestly don't know. There may even be some fetishization going on which may be why white man/black woman may not be as odious as maybe a white man can easier imagine himself as the white man in this type of relationship than identify with a black man in a relationship with a white woman? Maybe black woman/white male relationships don't threaten as much as it has been statistically proven that these types of relationships typically involve a meeting of equals in terms of education and income? I honestly don't know and to be honest, I really couldn't care less.


But I don't think it is helpful to mix this up with the separate point, of which configurations of interracial couples might or might not be more likely to enrage white racists.

In all truth and honesty, your fixation on figuring out which "configuration" upsets white racists is nothing short of baffling to me. I don't understand why anyone would consider that to be important. When informed repeatedly that his thesis was wrong and that bm/ww portrayals in media were much more prevalent than bw/wm, that OP doubled down and got increasingly more vile. Why that person did it is the only real question I have in all of this, not which "configuration" of interracial relationship will upset the racists of the world more.

[Number23]

5. Love it and love you, dearheart

Last edited Sun Jun 2, 2013, 08:14 PM - Edit history (1)

You guys make a gorgeous couple. All the best, all the blessings in the world to you and your Giovanni.

Oh, and by the way, I responded to some of your comments in that other thread. Please just respond here! Lord knows I don't want to keep kicking that foolishness to the top of GD.

[JustAnotherGen]

15. Thanks you!

You know - it's sad that only 'that' guy is allowed to get kudos for a life experience he's never had.

You saw that right?

[Number23]

6. Well I just went through your whole wedding album

let me just wipe these tears off, real quick.

It really doesn't bother me that there are people who won't get how stupid and offensive that OP was, and not just because of the comments about "penetrating" and "shtupping" black women but how it was obvious from the get-go that as far as that person was concerned, interracial relationships boil down to sex. He made that point over and over again, so how anyone can say that we were just "misunderstanding" what he was saying is a pointless waste of everyone's time.

He asked for "illustrations" when I said that the black man/white angle had been done to death. When a white man noted that he had a black wife, he told him "who you sleep with is none of my business." Who the hell says that about a man and his WIFE?? As if the totality of their MARRIAGE is hitting the sheets? And when I asked him if he qualified all relationships that way or just interracial ones, he turned blind and mute. His comment about white women lusting after well endowed black men got a 6-0 jury hide and to be honest, I'm surprised that the whole damn thread wasn't hidden, let alone got over 60 recs. But somehow, we are the ones who are just "not understanding" what is being said.

I look at your wedding pictures and I see love and joy. I know how it is within my own marriage, and I look at my two angels that are the fruit of that marriage and I know that I would happily give my life for everyone in this house, including my husband. That ain't got one damn thing to do with sex.

Are there people out there with fetishes about hitting some fine, brown ass? Yep. No question. I used to be able to spot those people from a mile away and avoid them like the plague. To be completely honest, my husband is the first and only white man I've ever dated. But to diminish all or even most interracial relationships in this way is short-sighted, mean-spirited and stupid as hell. The fact that there are people here that are unable to see that, including apparently the OP of that idiotic mess, shows that we have a hell of a long way to go.

[JustAnotherGen]

17. This nails it

It really doesn't bother me that there are people who won't get how stupid and offensive that OP was, and not just because of the comments about "penetrating" and "shtupping" black women but how it was obvious from the get-go that as far as that person was concerned, interracial relationships boil down to sex. He made that point over and over again, so how anyone can say that we were just "misunderstanding" what he was saying is a pointless waste of everyone's time.

And he made zero effort to show the historical background of what was done to black women by white men.

There are black folks walking around with blue eyes that can say all of their great great grandparents were black.
And it wasnt from black men sleeping with white women. And it's because black women were considered "fair game."


I suspect that your husband - much like mine - and definitely the gentleman below - saw a nice woman who was very kind. Oh yeah! She just HAPPENS to be . . .

Now the flip on this? My mother in law called this marriage 35 years ago. They lived in the Bronx for about 7 or 8 years when my husband was a little guy. My father in law had a chance to work on the WTC and then his business picked up a few more gigs. The little girls my husband would chase around were black, immigrants from Brazil and DR. And that's why they came here. To give their kids a chance to be around people that are not like them. And the whole family? Good good kind people. They are "elites" in Italy. The only question my Ninna had was - what is your education and what do you do?

She's a woman waaaay ahead of her time and only asked that her three sons bring home I quote, "Women of Substance".

She never said they had to be Calabrese. . But she wasn't surprised when I walked in the door! . She just wanted he middle son to be happy.

T

[Number23]

18. Your MIL sounds like a wise woman indeed.

I suspect that your husband - much like mine - and definitely the gentleman below - saw a nice woman who was very kind. Oh yeah! She just HAPPENS to be...

Well, yeah. But it was more than that obviously.

He saw a pretty little somethin' somethin' and it went from there. My husband is Australian so the whole black/white thing is like talking about Pluto to him. He has absolutely NO clue. And yet, in a lot of ways, he is still more aware of and sensitive to racial crap than alot of white Americans. Perhaps because he's to traveled so many places.

He was obviously something special to begin with, but I have no doubt that our relationship has caused him to grow in ways he'd never imagined. And now being a dad to two little brown-eyed, curly haired munchkins has taught him even more.

I mean, I know these relationships are not for everyone and I can respect that, I guess. But I know I grew up believing that as a black woman, pretty much my one job in life was to be with black men. And I dated some damn fine brothers too -- inside and out. But this Aussie captured my heart. What could I do???

There are black folks walking around with blue eyes that can say all of their great great grandparents were black.
And it wasnt from black men sleeping with white women. And it's because black women were considered "fair game."

Absolutely. And maybe that's another reason that some feel that bw/wm is not as hard to swallow for racists than bm/ww because it's been done before, against our will. Painfully and often. But to me, that actually makes that OP and those types of beliefs even MORE offensive because as you said, it completely ignores not only the present (that bm/ww depictions in media are far more prevalent than the reverse) but also the past.

[JustAnotherGen]

19. Pretty little something something!

My husband is juried artist. He lived in Paris in the 90's after he left the Italian Marine Corp. His favorite artists? Picasso and Lautrec.

I sew. I made an authentic can can dancer costume for Halloween (night we met). He walked into my friend Jill's house and I was showing everyone my frilly bloomers. He was sooooooold!

Then we argued about who was a better cubist - Picasso or Modigliani. He asked me out because I was the first woman since he had been based in the US that he met who even KNEW who Lautrec and Midiglisni were!

It wasn't a "fetish".

Now go have a pint with your mate!

[Number23]

20. Ha!! "Now go have a pint with your mate!"

What a Bonza idea!! Now if only I drank beer....

[JustAnotherGen]

21. I said that to an Aussie once

In St Tropez and he looked at me like I had five heads and walked away. And that's how I ended up with Jean-Charles of many names the 14th for a year and a half. Should have had the pint then called it a night. Instead I subjected myself to pure French assery running its course.

[onpatrol98]

10. What the heck has been going on?

I'm going to have to backtrack and see what I've missed. I love your pictures, JustAnotherGen! I'm a black woman who has been married to a white man for almost 20 years. And, you're right. Living the life is quite different from experiencing it vicariously or simply empathizing.

Anyone who speaks of conquering a mate has a sad, shallow concept of love.

But, dare I say the obvious. It comes as no surprise to any person alive of color that although the Republican party seems to hold the lions share of racists, racism is alive and well in the democratic party and DU, as well.

[Number23]

13. "Anyone who speaks of conquering a mate has a sad, shallow concept of love."

You just gave me chills. Perfectly said.

[JustAnotherGen]

16. +1

[rppper]

12. Beautiful pics!

You guys look so happy! Here is a pic of my wife and I....oh, and thanks for the insightful thread....good read and heartfelt!

[JustAnotherGen]

14. Amore! Amore! Amore!

[Number23]

22. JAG, just noticed that Mr. Samuel Hain, the creator of that illustrious OP, has been shown the door

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=304424&sub=trans

A moment of silence if you will...

[JustAnotherGen]

23. Oh snap!

[Number23]

24. "We Are The 15 Percent"

Have you guys seen this??

'We Are The 15 Percent: Interracial Family Launches Site In Response To Cheerios Backlash'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/21/we-are-the-15-percent_n_3473929.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

And here's the web site http://wearethe15percent.com/

And don't even get me started on those babies!!! I love babies, ALL babies. Anytime, anyplace. But some of the kids in these pictures are nothing short of absolute DIVINE.

Oh my goodness, you should send your wedding pics to this web site!!! I am sitting here looking at the pics of the couples and these babies and BAWLING. It would be so beautiful to have you and your hubby up there too.