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Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:57 AM

Trust the misnomer

That's essentially what's required. Lots of folks favor gun control because they believe gun control laws will eliminate or severely limit violence. The term "gun control" is a misnomer for several reasons.

First, gun control laws aim at controlling those who possess guns not the guns themselves. Realizing this deletes from the set of concepts the anthropomorphic ideas about guns. Guns don't cause people to become criminally antisocial and start shooting sprees.

Second, passing a new law(s) which aim(s) to interrupt a hypothetical sequence of events that lead to murder (which is already illegal) fundamentally affect more those not involved in the plan for any crime. Media campaigns which enlighten the misguided/uninformed are generally more successful than laws. I see ads in the media all the time relating to drunk driving, drug addiction, texting while driving... but I have yet to see an ad about difficult circumstances which could arise consequential to the casual sale, exchange or careless storage of firearms. I've seen ads about safe sex but not safe storage.

Third, doesn't it seem as an evidence against the actual premise of "control" that a law whose intended effect is some measure of positive control also having criminal penalties? If it is accepted that a particular law will change the behavior of most of those subject to the law such that certain negative (and already illegal) sequelae will be abated, it does seem rather contradictory to also add a criminal penalty as consequence of a conviction for breaking the law in question. If it is the existence of the law that brings about the desired "control" then a criminal penalty is superfluous. If it is the existence of the penalty that brings about the desired "control" then realize that those who are most responsible for the most heinous instances of crimes which these types of laws seek to abate will go unpunished because they are almost all killed by their own hand or by law enforcement.

Gun control is not only a misnomer but, in the philosophical sense, also an oxymoron.

27 replies, 2239 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 27 replies Author Time Post
Reply Trust the misnomer (Original post)
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 OP
ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #1
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #6
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #16
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #2
Lurks Often Jan 2013 #3
bobclark86 Jan 2013 #4
gejohnston Jan 2013 #5
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #7
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #8
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #9
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #10
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #11
spin Jan 2013 #12
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #13
spin Jan 2013 #14
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #15
ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #17
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #18
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #19
ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #20
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #21
jmg257 Jan 2013 #22
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #23
gejohnston Jan 2013 #24
jmg257 Jan 2013 #27
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #25
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #26

Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:07 PM

1. Fun argument.

I am probably going to read it again after I fully wake up.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:34 PM

6. Enjoy :) n/t

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 03:42 PM

16. Still readin'?? n/t

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:11 PM

2. It is often the case that the non-targeted groups are more impacted than the targeted groups.

A handful of people use Sudafed to make meth, but none of us can buy it over the counter any more.

So, you don't like gun control laws. How do you propose to decrease gun violence?

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:26 PM

3. Mandatory sentences for using a gun in a crime,

Addressing the economic issues that is one of the underlying causes for most crime.
Addressing the social issues that make crime seem to be a viable option for some people.
Addressing the mental issues that some suffer from and doing a better job of recognizing and identifying the warning signs.
Encourage people not to kick the bucket down the road when they do identify the warning signs, in both the AZ and CO shooting, there were warning signs before hand, but no one took substantive measures to see that the person was investigated or treated.

Of course REAL solutions require time and hard work and Congress to actually do something.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:27 PM

4. How about the same way...

we decrease ALL violence. Education, economic opportunities, mental health services... you know, the things Democrats are supposed to do...

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:32 PM

5. pick something that works

like proper enforcement of current federal gun control laws, ending the war on drugs, deal with social inequality, make libraries cool again, make movies with people fighting it out with words at best or tire chains at worst.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:50 PM

7. I take it from...

...the slow response to posts 3, 4 and 5 that your somehow unhappy with those options. Would you care to elaborate?

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:41 PM

8. The question was for you. I was waiting for your reply.

Well?

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:17 PM

9. Well thank you

I hope you don't mind if I interject here that I've observed a recent influx of visitors to this group and also a somewhat increased level of courtesy. Pleasant.

To the point, How do you propose to decrease gun violence?

I do agree with most of the suggestions written in the posts I previously mentioned. The US, as a whole, has been making regular progress with these issues over the past few decades. Is there a subset of these issues, about which you feel progress is especially lacking?

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:46 PM

10. The other posts tended to focus on social needs, which are difficult to implement and harder...

...legislate. Necessary but hard.

Progress was made in the mid 1990s in terms of decreasing the number of homicides by guns, but the rate has not decreased for several years.

I agree that enforcing current laws is an excellent idea, but very few Second Amendment advocates support such enforcement. I also believe that reversing the ban on assault weapons was a mistake.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:49 PM

11. You're certainly not alone in your assessments.

I believe that certain social measures will be of greater significance than any new bans or restrictions. What type of new ban do you support?

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:17 PM

12. I question this statement in your post: ....

"Progress was made in the mid 1990s in terms of decreasing the number of homicides by guns, but the rate has not decreased for several years."


Gun crime continues to decrease, despite increase in gun sales

3:41 PM 09/28/2011

Despite increases in gun sales, gun crimes continued to decrease in the United States for the fourth straight year in 2010, according to the FBI.

The FBI recently released its Crime in The United States statistics for 2010. Overall, murders in the U.S. have decreased steadily since 2006, dropping from 15,087 to 12,996. Firearms murders — which made up 67 percent of all murders in the U.S. in 2010 — have followed this trend, decreasing by 14 percent.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/28/gun-crime-continues-to-decrease-despite-increase-in-gun-ownership/#ixzz2H3CEGEpC

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Response to spin (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 03:06 PM

13. I was rather...

...underwhelmed by the his replies.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 03:27 PM

14. As I was. (n/t)



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Response to spin (Reply #14)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 03:30 PM

15. A user name...

...no doubt inspired by the brave thought of hanging up the phone on Buzz Lightyear.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 04:39 PM

17. OK.

First part: True, except for the magazine restrictions some want. What would call gun-control laws?

Second part:
passing a new law(s) which aim(s) to interrupt a hypothetical sequence of events that lead to murder (which is already illegal) fundamentally affect more those not involved in the plan for any crime.


True in this case.

Media campaigns which enlighten the misguided/uninformed are generally more successful than laws. I see ads in the media all the time relating to drunk driving, drug addiction, texting while driving... but I have yet to see an ad about difficult circumstances which could arise consequential to the casual sale, exchange or careless storage of firearms. I've seen ads about safe sex but not safe storage.


I agree. I don't laws change as many minds as celebrities and well-made ads.

Third part: This is the fun argument. I guess the counter argument is laws are (kind of) effective because of the punishment. Of course, the gunman that intend to die anyway are not overly concerned about the punishment.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 04:50 PM

18. Thanks for the thoughts

Just an appendix: (third part) Those who seek to begin a high profile mass shooting and then simply vanish from the area will be arrested by numerous law enforcement officers, unimpressed by the suspect's claims of invisibility due to a functioning utility belt.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #17)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 10:16 PM

19. Just having thought it over for a bit

What would call gun-control laws?


Firearm laws. I think one of the problems with the issue is the use of the term control. Control is just BS because, as the criminals and crazies demonstrate daily, they will do whatever the hell they please, screw the law. Let's get over it. Depending on their problem and inclinations, these folks will shoot you, borrow a book and never return it, pick their teeth in public, wear white shoes after Labor Day, rape your dog and French kiss your cat. They have no allegiance to lawfulness nor interest in you or the problems they will cause you. They're beyond control.

** Evening venting completed **

Thanks

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #19)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 10:30 PM

20. Gun regulation or firearm regulation.

Firearm laws works well too.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #20)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 10:31 PM

21. Cool

Works for me.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #19)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 10:32 PM

22. And thats why laws have penalties, so their lak of allegiance costs them,

And in the more serious cases remove them from the general population.

Which makes me wonder why so many "law-abiding" citizens would want to join such a group by being non-compliant in the case of new firearm laws. Do they share the same selfishness and lack of social conscience?

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #22)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 10:48 PM

23. Hmmm...

Do they share the same selfishness and lack of social conscience?


Perhaps you need to formulate a survey to answer this question.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #22)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 11:27 PM

24. one could say the same about pot smokers who

buy off gangs, including Mexico. Someone buys it even if the quality is questionable. What is the social conscience of someone who fuels and funds gang wars while pointing the finger at some deer hunter in the sticks?

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #24)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 07:28 AM

27. The same as other criminals (if so in statute), no? Non violent possibly, but still

In violation of the laws, and responsible for the results of their actions.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 11:28 PM

25. never said that guncontrol would elimate or severely reduce

dis-ir-sar: Lots of folks favor gun control because they believe gun control laws will eliminate or severely limit violence. The term "gun control" is a misnomer for several reasons.

Your premise is the faulty misnomer, if you mean it to be guncontrol advocates in general. If you just mean 'lots of folks' like in 'hundreds of people', or maybe a lesser ten percent of guncontrol advocates, well it becomes too subjective to argue with you.

.. But I'll go with your presumed general premise, that we guncontrol advocates believe that guncontrol will 'eliminate or severely limit violence'. Nope. Never said that.

.. What we believe is that guncontrol will only, can only, have a limited marginal affect on lowering violent crime rates, comparatively to other similar sized & demographically similar cities; in other words it's better than guns galore mentality.
... we realize we can NEVER severely reduce violent crime in large urban cities with high violent crime rates like PRO GUN chattanooga tennesee with the highest violent crime rate for a US metropolitan area, less yet eliminate it -- folly, pipe dream.

Updated: May 10, 2012 The ranking pushed {very pro gun} Chattanooga's crime rate higher than Detroit and Atlanta, cities considered to be two of the most dangerous in America..
The study shows {pro gun now} St. Louis {with shall issue ccw since 2005} is number one in the country with more than 10,000 crimes per 100,000 people. {pro gun} Memphis is ranked fifth.
Both {pro gun} Chattanooga and {pro gun} Knoxville are ranked above Atlanta, Georgia


http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/13068545/chattanooga-makes-top-20-in-crime-report

thanks discontentironysarcasm for demonstrating: MORE GUNS, MORE LIES


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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #25)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 11:38 PM

26. You're welcome

I guess these make us even:

me:
Lots of folks favor gun control because they believe gun control laws will eliminate or severely limit violence.


you:
thanks discontentironysarcasm for demonstrating: MORE GUNS, MORE LIES


touché

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