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Wed Jan 2, 2013, 10:16 PM

no murders in 2012, what did they do right that Chicago did not?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/02/aurora-homicide-free-illi_n_2396554.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/suburbs/aurora/ct-met-aurora-no-homicides-20130102,0,7451538.story

During the city's more violent years, Aurora police and city officials blamed gang tensions, in part, for higher slaying totals, according to media reports. Thomas attributed the drop to "proactive police work."

"We changed our tactics up and have been successful," he said.


n the police department, a philosophy change helped bring in new resources and manpower from the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. Aurora officers teamed up with federal agents on massive sweeps, arresting dozens of gang members on drug or murder charges. Federal charges meant longer sentences, so some men were imprisoned for decades and others were motivated to cooperate on other investigations. The sweeps culminated in 2007 with Operation First Degree Burn, which charged 31 men with 22 unsolved gang murders.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/17317331-418/for-the-first-time-in-six-decades-aurora-ends-year-with-no-murders.html

Kudos to Aurora PD, ATF, and FBI.

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Reply no murders in 2012, what did they do right that Chicago did not? (Original post)
gejohnston Jan 2013 OP
loknar Jan 2013 #1
rbixby Jan 2013 #2
gejohnston Jan 2013 #3
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #4
Lurks Often Jan 2013 #5
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #6
gejohnston Jan 2013 #7
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #8
gejohnston Jan 2013 #10
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #9

Response to gejohnston (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 10:41 PM

1. looks like they arrested and imprisoned violent offenders. Way to think out of the box.

 

If this catches on, the streets might actually become safe.

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Response to gejohnston (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 12:25 AM

2. I think Aurora also has several million less people

Just sayin

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Response to rbixby (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 12:32 AM

3. yeah but,

it isn't Mayberry either. Chicago has about 2.5 million more. The point is Aurora is dealing with the problem head on instead of feel good duct tape. Chicago's city government is too inept and corrupt.
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-2012/Gangs-and-Politicians-An-Unholy-Alliance/

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Response to gejohnston (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 12:01 PM

4. stand your ground laws not doing so well, murders up 7%

gejohnston: Kudos to Aurora PD, ATF, and FBI.

concur, johnston, tho I at first thought you were bashing chicago for it's guncontrol laws using aurora as a pretext (& I haven't completely dismissed that idea).

.. just out past couple hours tho, the efficacy of 'stand your ground' laws, like in florida zimmerman case:

jan 3, 2013: (Newser) Whatever the merits of "Stand Your Ground" laws, they appear to increase homicides by at least 7%, reports NPR. It cites a Texas A&M study of the 23 states that have enacted "Stand Your Ground" laws since 2005. Researchers looked at the homicide rate in those states pre- and post-law, as well as the rates of non-Stand Your Ground states. It determined between 500 and 700 additional homicides take place annually as a result. "These laws lower the cost of using lethal force," says Mark Hoekstra, the economist behind the study. "Our study finds that, as a result, you get more of it. Homicides go up by 7% to 9% in states that pass the laws."

What the study didn't find was "evidence of any deterrence effect over that same time period." Hoekstra says his results don't necessarily prove that the law is a failure. "It could be that these are self-defense killings," he says.
"On the other hand, the increase could be driven by an escalation of violence by criminals. Or it could be an escalation of violence in otherwise nonviolent situations."
http://www.newser.com/story/160290/homicides-up-7-in-stand-your-ground-states.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=united&utm_campaign=rss_3_2

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 02:32 PM

5. Did you even bother to read what you posted?

"It could be that these are self-defense killings,"

Homicide does not equal murder and here is a link to explain the legal difference:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 03:50 PM

6. +1. I commend your effort to bring verfiable facts into the subthread.

However, as they are inconvenient they will either be ridiculed or ignored...

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 05:17 PM

7. Illinois has a fairly reasonable licensing scheme

at least to the best of my knowledge anyway, Illinois folks may disagree. The only thing that makes Chicago unique is their handgun ban. Since gangsters don't get FOIDs, and most of their problems are gang related, gun laws are irrelevant. There was a "pot shot" at Chicago there, but not their gun ban per se. As I mentioned in another post, it is the incompetence and corruption. City officials protecting gangs, and getting favors from them, while doing for the citizens. Every former resident of Chicago I run into in Florida, liberal and conservative alike, bitch about Daley privatizing the parking meters.

I read that study. The economists couldn't tell the difference between Castle Doctrine from SYG, getting some of the states wrong.

BTW, self defense homicides by police increased. Not all homicides are murder. You also have to balance that justifiable homicide, which is not a crime, vs the violent crime prevented. There was a case in Del Ray Beach, FL, where a guy robbed a deli. The owner emptied the register and gave it to him. Had he just taken the money and ran, no shots would have been fired. He decided to take a toddler as hostage, that is what prompted the owner to shoot him.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:38 PM

8. Yes, I, DID, read my SYG post!

the oftentimes Lurker: Did you even bother to read what you posted? "It could be that these are self-defense killings"

Yes, I, DID read what I posted! And thanks to you, I've reread what I posted several times over, but I still don't get any point you're trying to make.

what I posted: jan 3, 2013: (Newser) .."Stand Your Ground" laws, they appear to increase homicides by at least 7%, reports NPR. It cites a Texas A&M study of the 23 states that have enacted "Stand Your Ground" laws since 2005. .. It determined between 500 and 700 additional homicides take place annually as a result.
"These {SYG} laws lower the cost of using lethal force .. Our study finds that, as a result, you get more of it {Lethal Force}. Homicides go up by 7% to 9% in states that pass the laws." What the study didn't find was "evidence of any deterrence effect over that same time period."
Hoekstra says his results don't necessarily prove that the law is a failure. "It could be that these are self-defense killings," <<<<< Lurkers Bone of Contention!
"On the other hand, the increase could be driven by an escalation of violence by criminals. Or it could be an escalation of violence in otherwise nonviolent situations."

http://www.newser.com/story/160290/homicides-up-7-in-stand-your-ground-states.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=united&utm_campaign=rss_3_2

So pls explain your point, since what he means is that 'some' murders COULD be bona fide self defense, OR, bona fide escalations of violence induced by stand your ground laws.
Did you really think there would be 500 to 700 MORE justifiable homicides yearly, in those syg states? than the couple dozen they usually get? (far less in smaller states)

And thanks for the link to explain diff between homicide & murder, I sometimes use them synonymously for sure, but it really is beside the point.

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:44 PM

10. the courts ruled they were bonefide self defense

without going through case files of each one afterward, and trial transcripts of those before the law was passed, there is no way of knowing what is what. For all we know, there are 500-700 innocent people sitting in prison because of the previous laws.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:02 PM

9. Pro Gun Kennesaw vs. HandgunBanner Morton Grove

johnston: The only thing that makes Chicago unique is their handgun ban. Since gangsters don't get FOIDs, and most of their problems are gang related, gun laws are irrelevant. There was a "pot shot" at Chicago there, but not their gun ban per se.

Shouldn't you be speaking in the past tense, johnston? gun ban is unconstitutional as of 2010 mcdonald, and handguns can be legal in chicago now. Imagine that as well, murder goes up after handgun ban is lifted.

But chicago & DC are not the only ones to ban handguns, Morton Grove did too (tho a suburb of chicago, is it considered 'chicago' anyone know?)... anyway, lets compare how morton grove does with it's erstwhile handgun ban compared to kennesaw georgia where by law each household is required to possess a firearm. (Note 2010 stats would be ~pre-mcdonald)

2010--CrimeRateIndex -Kennesaw - US - MortonGrove
Total Crime Risk .............. 56 ... 100 ..... 35
Murder Risk.................... 27 ... 100 ..... 15
Rape Risk........................ 46 ... 100 ..... 42
Robbery Risk................... 38 ... 100 ..... 15
Assault Risk................... 16 ... 100 ..... 47
Burglary Risk.................. 54 ... 100 ..... 41
Larceny Risk.................... 64 ... 100 ..... 83
Auto Theft Risk................ 67 ... 100 ..... 33

http://www.clrsearch.com/Morton-Grove-Demographics/IL/Crime-Rate

http://www.clrsearch.com/Kennesaw-Demographics/Ga/Crime-Rate
Crime Risk Index (100 = National Average): Index score for an area is compared to the national average of 100. A score of 200 indicates twice the national average total crime risk, while 50 indicates half the national risk.


Dang, 6 of 8 for DA GROVE exceptin' larceny & assault. TOTAL crime risk Kennesaw 56, MG 35, the winner & still champ --- DA GROVE.

Am I cherry picking one bad year for kennesaw? nah, been about the same for past 15 yrs I been followin' it, DA grove's had about 30% lower crime rates than kennesaw on avg, & lower but about parity in property crime in one of kennesaws zip codes, & ~20% lower property crime rates than the other kennesaw zip.

2003 FBI stats deflates the myth of 'more guns less crime':
2003 Murder: Morton Grove 2 - Kennnesaw 1
2003 Robbery: Morton Grove 4 - Kennesaw 7
2003 Aggravated Assault: Morton Grove 12 - Kennesaw 15
2003 Larceny And Theft: Morton Grove 390 - Kennesaw 455
2003 Burglary; Morton Grove 70 - Kennesaw 89

Both cities have similiar populaions with 22.966 residents of Morton Grove and 25,183 in Kennesaw.
Morton Grove is also a suburb of Chicago, gets spillover crime. Kennesaw is more rural.

MORE GUNS, MORE LIES






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