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Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:46 PM

Let's make a deal...

Last edited Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:10 PM - Edit history (1)

Here's an idea.

For the pro-control side, we get a licensing and registration system for handguns and semi-autos, either at the federal level or else state-by-state with some kind of uniformity. For the pro-gun side, we have national conceal-carry reciprocity, and also no local gun ownership restrictions beyond licensing and registration.

There are some details to work out, but this deal gives a lot on both sides. I know the pro-gun side doesn't like the idea of registration. On the other hand, this would dramatically change gun laws in places like NYC, Chicago, and DC. So, for example, Bloomberg would probably be opposed to this, because it would allow people in New York to own handguns and carry them around.

Here's the logic. Concealed carry is something that pro-gun people really want, and that, statistically, doesn't cause a large increase in gun violence (or at least it hasn't so far). National shall-issue will expand it to a large number of people -- even though most parts of the country are "shall issue", the number of people that live in "may issue" or effectively non-issue regions, is sizeable.

On the other hand, licensing and registration -- if it occurs nationally with uniform standards -- would go a long way towards reducing the number of guns that end up in the wrong hands. And, although pro-gun people will gripe about it, it doesn't prevent any law abiding gun owner from owning all the guns he or she wants. So, again, like national "shall-issue", it's a lot of "bang for the buck" -- large reduction (at least in the minds of pro-control people like me) in gun proliferation, but small impact on law abiding gun owners.

Just an idea. I haven't thought it through fully myself. Wondering what people think.

On edit: in response to a comment, as part of "no local gun ownership restrictions beyond licensing and registration" I would be willing to get rid of any state or municipal Assault Weapons Bans.

31 replies, 2286 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply Let's make a deal... (Original post)
DanTex Dec 2012 OP
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #1
DanTex Dec 2012 #3
rrneck Dec 2012 #2
DanTex Dec 2012 #5
Puha Ekapi Dec 2012 #4
DanTex Dec 2012 #6
Puha Ekapi Dec 2012 #9
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #7
DanTex Dec 2012 #10
aikoaiko Dec 2012 #8
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #13
aikoaiko Dec 2012 #17
DanTex Dec 2012 #15
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #11
OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #12
DanTex Dec 2012 #14
OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #16
bobclark86 Dec 2012 #31
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #18
spin Dec 2012 #19
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #20
-..__... Dec 2012 #21
Pullo Dec 2012 #22
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #23
gejohnston Dec 2012 #25
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #27
gejohnston Dec 2012 #28
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #24
loyalkydem Dec 2012 #26
bobclark86 Dec 2012 #29
gejohnston Dec 2012 #30

Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:06 PM

1. I could live with this compromise.

As always, the devil is in the details.

The idea of "no local gun ownership restrictions beyond licensing and registration" would need some fleshing out. Are we talking about stuff like rolling back the "assault weapons" bans like in CA and CT?

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:11 PM

3. I'd be willing to roll back local assault weapons bans.

Handguns are the big problem when it comes to gun violence.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:08 PM

2. How would registration work?

How would it be implemented?

How would it be enforced?

What are the penalties for non compliance?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:20 PM

5. I don't know.

One potential idea is to enforce it at gun ranges. So if you have an unregistered gun, you won't be able to shoot it at a range. Don't know about penalties.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:13 PM

4. In light of...

...positions spoken by certain public officials in recent days stating that confiscation should be on the table, registration is a real non-starter. I wouldn't favor it, nor would many, probably the majority of gun owners, and I expect that the compliance rate would be low for those who already own unregistered weapons.

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Response to Puha Ekapi (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:28 PM

6. Extremists always claim to speak for the "majority" of gun owners.

Polls I've seen indicate that a slight majority of gun owners are in favor of registration. Not all gun owners are fanatics.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:49 PM

9. It's not fanaticism...

...to be wary of registration in light of statements saying that confiscation should be on the table. I'm not a "gun nut" or even particularly political except in matters of tribal politics, yet I don't think it is a wise idea, constitutionally, to open the door to the potential of confiscation.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:46 PM

7. To understand this correctly, those who purchased shotguns, rifles,...

and antiques, there would be no registration and licensing.

Revolvers would be included in the licensing and registration scheme.

Licensing would be once for the individual, and registration for every firearm classified as "handgun and semi-auto."

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:56 PM

10. Correct.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:48 PM

8. I think you over-estimate the importance of national concealed carry.


Most people rarely leave their state.

I'd have to have all federal gun bans (by law or regulation via ATF, AG, executive order, etc) lifted as a contingency of the existence of national registration with all licensing, registration, and NFA rules applicable.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:00 PM

13. "ban lifts:" Do you envision all arms designed to be held & operated in one or both arms?

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:21 PM

17. I was referring to rifles, pistols, and shotguns

That are typically held with one or two arms.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:15 PM

15. Maybe. On the other hand, for people who think of guns as a real civil rights issue,

the fact that many people have basically no access to handguns is a big deal. Kind of like the fact that pro-choice activists really value Roe v Wade, even though many (most) of them live in states that would provide abortion rights without a Supreme Court decision.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:57 PM

11. Other considerations...

Would a Registration Authority be suitable, wherein a NGO would be a repository of records, accessible only by warrant as per 4th Amendment? Is this practical?

Questions are for anyone.

Note: I also agree that concealed-carry/open-carry is not that big a "bargaining chip," and attendant reciprocity (while important) isn't front-burner, either.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:00 PM

12. Licensing and registration of new guns or all existing? (ie: grandfather old guns?)

 

How do you ensure that 200-some odd million already existing guns get registered?
Will there door-to-door random searches to make sure that all guns in a domocile are actually all registered?

Also, I would think access to gun registry records would have to be via bench-issued warrant only to make gun owners feel a little less paranoid. Logs should be kept kept on access of records viewed. No exploratory or inquisitive searches allowed - the government and police should not be allowed to abuse the system.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:05 PM

14. All existing guns. No door-to-door searches.

You could get away with not registering your guns as long as you don't mind breaking the law. Most people wouldn't take that chance IMO. If you do, then you risk getting caught, which most law abiding gun owners wouldn't want. Especially if you ever end up using your gun in self-defense.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:21 PM

16. Honestly, I'd probably only register about 75% of my guns at first.

 

I'd keep an AR and handgun or two off the books and tucked away in a safe place. If a couple of years went by and I felt completely confident with the system and there was no abuse or other concerns, I'd probably register the remaining guns.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:46 PM

31. Umm...

"You could get away with not registering your guns as long as you don't mind breaking the law."

Umm... then what the hell's the point? Don't you see that criminals won't care? Unless you're going to start searching (with the obvious Fourth Amendment issues), then you're not going to get them. It wouldn't surprise me if you wouldn't get a majority of them without searches.

BTW, the ONLY reasons for registering firearms are tracking them AFTER an incident (like finding out who where the gun was stolen from or if there was a straw buyer... but AFTER something happens), or tracking them prior to confiscation. With talk from people like Andrew Cuomo lately ("Confiscation should be on the table"), that'll go over like a lead balloon.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:24 PM

18. I don't have any guns.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:44 PM

19. I oppose any form of registration because of some of the recent comments by those on your side ...

many of whom had advocated banning and confiscating all firearms.

Senator Dianne Feinstein's newly purposed assault weapons ban suggests banning semi-auto pistols with magazines that would hold more than 10 rounds. The normal sized magazine for my Colt 1911 .45acp pistol is 7 rounds but I can buy aftermarket magazines that hold up to 15 rounds.

Here's Why Dianne Feinstein's Assault Weapons Ban Might Actually Work Dec. 28, 2012, 11:53 AM

***snip***

In response to criticism over the arguably flawed semiautomatic weapons law, Feinstein is introducing what The New York Times called in an editorial today "a tougher assault weapons ban."

Here are some key ways Feinstein says her ban would be tougher than the old one:

While the old law banned 18 specific types of weapons by name, Feinstein's law would ban 120 specifically-named firearms.
Unlike the old law, Feinstein's proposal would ban semiautomatic weapons and handguns with fixed magazines that can accept more than 10 rounds of ammunition, effectively making it tougher for gunmen to shoot at large groups of people quickly....emphasis added
http://www.businessinsider.com/dianne-feinsteins-assault-weapons-ban-2012-12


I have no problem with the government knowing that I own firearms as I have a concealed weapons permit.

I have a major problem with the government knowing exactly what firearms I own as that data might be used if ever a law were to pass that allows banning and confiscation. Admittedly the chances of such a law passing are slim at the best.

Firearm registration is illegal in my state of Florida for the following excellent reasons:



2011 Florida Statutes

790.335 Prohibition of registration of firearms; electronic records.
(1) LEGISLATIVE FINDINGS AND INTENT.
(a) The Legislature finds and declares that:
1. The right of individuals to keep and bear arms is guaranteed under both the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and s. 8, Art. I of the State Constitution.
2. A list, record, or registry of legally owned firearms or law-abiding firearm owners is not a law enforcement tool and can become an instrument for profiling, harassing, or abusing law-abiding citizens based on their choice to own a firearm and exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under the United States Constitution. Further, such a list, record, or registry has the potential to fall into the wrong hands and become a shopping list for thieves.
3. A list, record, or registry of legally owned firearms or law-abiding firearm owners is not a tool for fighting terrorism, but rather is an instrument that can be used as a means to profile innocent citizens and to harass and abuse American citizens based solely on their choice to own firearms and exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under the United States Constitution.
4. Law-abiding firearm owners whose names have been illegally recorded in a list, record, or registry are entitled to redress.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/790.335


Unlike many gun owners I feel that laws concerning the concealed carry of weapons is best kept at the state level. Allowing the federal government to regulate concealed carry law could possibly lead to extremely high fees or draconian requirements that could limit concealed carry to the rich and those with the time to take long courses.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:57 PM

20. I would support that, and even some variations of give or take on it. That's a good middle-road

solution.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 06:55 PM

21. No thanks... I'll pass.

 

Compromise, deals, negotiating isn't an option.

I'll take my chances with those that make the laws, and those that rule on them... let the chips fall where they may.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:51 PM

22. I like your approach, DanTex

All to often, the anti's idea of compromise consists of them take less of my rights away than they'd ideally like to, and offering the pro-RKBA community nothing in return.

About your proposal specifically. Registration, especially firearm-specific registration of gun owners, is HUGE hurdle for me to get over for a variety of reasons. Its very tough for me to go near that. National CCW reciprocity is something, but I for one would need quite a bit more that that to seriously consider registration.

Repealing the Hughes Amendment to the 1986 FOPA would need to be chucked in. I would need to some type of STRONG legal assurance that the licensing standards are no more strict than most CCW requirements, and that the registration records etc can NEVER, EVER be used in some future confiscation effort. I'm not sure how you could draw that up.

But since we're just talking here and you are making a genuine attempt at a compromise, I'll have the conversation.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:04 PM

23. I would want a few more items added to the list

including safe storage requirements and limiting handguns to what fits in the handgrip.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:36 PM

25. what about pistols

like the Walther GSP, Mauser C-96 where the magazine is not in the handgrip?

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:51 PM

27. Harder call...factory magazine capacity comes to mind

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #27)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:00 PM

28. for antiques like the C-96

what ever was historically common. I'm guessing the are C&R, deemed unlikely to be used in a crime. For modern target pistols like the Walther, I would say whatever is Olympic or ISSF standard plus one.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:15 PM

24. In principle I agree. One detail.

Enabling legislation must be in the same act.

As already stated, devil will be in the details.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:38 PM

26. This might be costly

but I would also like to see some kind of finger print identification system on the gun so it won't accidentally fire if someone gets a hold of it.

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Response to loyalkydem (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:35 PM

29. Somebody's watched a bit too much James Bond...

Yeah, it's obscenely expensive, difficult to add, easy to bypass and unreliable. That's why police nationwide aren't using such a system.

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Response to bobclark86 (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:36 PM

30. or worldwide for that matter

once it shows up, I'll look at it.

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