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Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:02 PM

Our new civilian militia

The Southern Poverty Law center list over 1,000 active hate groups in the U.S.. They even map them out for your.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map#s=OH
Just click on your state and find out how close a skin head, KKK or neo-nazi group is to you. Many, if not most are armed with scary looking rifles.

So, now the recent shooting of 20 young kids is being called the tipping point for new gun control. I have a feeling much more like a shoved off the cliff point is on the way.

The single crazed killer is bad enough. When a group of crazed killers, organized and well armed strikes, killing hundreds or more, what'll you think will happen with gun control?

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Arrow 40 replies Author Time Post
Reply Our new civilian militia (Original post)
safeinOhio Dec 2012 OP
rrneck Dec 2012 #1
Pullo Dec 2012 #3
ileus Dec 2012 #15
Angry Dragon Dec 2012 #2
gejohnston Dec 2012 #4
jody Dec 2012 #5
safeinOhio Dec 2012 #6
PavePusher Dec 2012 #7
jody Dec 2012 #9
Trunk Monkey Dec 2012 #14
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #8
jody Dec 2012 #10
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #11
safeinOhio Dec 2012 #12
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #13
rl6214 Dec 2012 #16
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #17
gejohnston Dec 2012 #18
safeinOhio Dec 2012 #20
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #21
gejohnston Dec 2012 #19
safeinOhio Dec 2012 #22
gejohnston Dec 2012 #23
Remmah2 Dec 2012 #24
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #25
Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #32
jmg257 Jan 2013 #34
Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #35
jmg257 Jan 2013 #37
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #39
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #26
lunasun Jan 2013 #27
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #29
gejohnston Jan 2013 #28
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #30
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #31
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #33
Remmah2 Jan 2013 #36
Dash87 Jan 2013 #38
ellisonz Jan 2013 #40

Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:07 PM

1. It'll go straight out the window. nt

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Response to rrneck (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:14 PM

3. All my AR-15's were lost in a tragic boating accident n/t

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Response to Pullo (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 06:19 PM

15. I sold mine on facebook for 2000 bucks each.

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:12 PM

2. I do not see the biggest hate group in this country listed

How come they do not list the republican party??

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:25 PM

4. the map has been there for quite awhile

and according to the dictionary, they don't meet the definition of the word. Besides, they are more likely to bomb something than get in a shoot out. It does make me thankful I'm not in California or Georgia.
mi·li·tia
/məˈliSHə/
Noun

A military force of civilians to supplement a regular army in an emergency.
A military force that engages in rebel activities.

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:27 PM

5. Thanks. Many DUers are ignorant of state militias and they should not confuse the ones you cite with

 

a State’s militia, e.g. Ohio which includes all male and females 17 to 67 years of age.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/5923
Chapter 5923: ORGANIZED MILITIA

5923.01 State militia membership - limitation of troops.

(A) The Ohio organized militia consist of all citizens of the state who are not permanently handicapped, as handicapped is defined in section 4112.01 of the Revised Code, who are more than seventeen years, and not more than sixty-seven years, of age unless exempted as provided in section 5923.02 of the Revised Code, and who are members of one of the following:

(1) The Ohio national guard;

(2) The Ohio naval militia;

(3) The Ohio military reserve.

(B) The Ohio national guard, including both the Ohio air national guard and the Ohio army national guard, the Ohio naval militia, and the Ohio military reserve are known collectively as the Ohio organized militia.

(C) The Ohio naval militia and the Ohio military reserve are known collectively as the state defense forces.

(D) The unorganized militia consists of those citizens of the state as described in division (A) of this section who are not members of the Ohio organized militia.

More about states' militias at ]

ON EDIT ADD
Congress is derelict because it has not performed its duty under Article I, Section 8, Clause 16 with respect to the unorganized militia, (10 USC 311):
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

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Response to jody (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:40 PM

6. Are you saying "a well regulated militia"

Has an actual meaning to the Second Amendment?

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:48 PM

7. Sure it does.... but it's still not a limiting condition on the Right. n/t

 

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 02:08 PM

9. Congress has all the authority it needs for the militia in Article I, Section 8, clauses 15 & 16.

 

The Second Amendment adds nothing for militias.

Read SCOTUS opinion, dissent, and amicus briefs for DC v Heller at http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/dc-v-heller/

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 02:41 PM

14. From Heller

 

(1) The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.
(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 02:06 PM

8. I recommend everyone take a very close look at their maps and the groups.

I expected to see skin head, KKK, or neo-nazi groups, mostly I did not find these.

I did not know that Nation of Islam was a hate group and militia, that was the only group listed in my town.

In fact, a large number of groups listed are of an Islamic nature, it seems.

It comes of as xenophobic.



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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 02:18 PM

10. "xenophobic" is that an acceptable term to describe those who want to ban firearms and all groups

 

who use them?

Why aren't drug gangs and neighborhood gangs with their firearms and military structure also included?

"According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation's 2011 National Gang Threat Assessment, the NGIC has identified members of more than 53 gangs who have served in the United States military, including Bloods, Crips, Latin Kings, MS-13, Sureños, Juggalos, the Aryan Brotherhood, Barrio Azteca, Bandidos, Hells Angels, and Gangster Disciples." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_presence_in_the_United_States_military

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Response to jody (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 02:20 PM

11. Great point.

Why aren't Crips and Bloods and MS13 and Nortenos and Surenos and Tiny Rascal Gangsters listed in my town???

Why only Nation of Islam?

This makes the whole list suspect, to me, much as I otherwise like the SPLC.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 02:30 PM

12. Those gangs are after drugs and money

Not going after a different race or group based on hate.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 02:34 PM

13. Nortenos and MS13 are regionally based hate groups.

That hate one another based upon what parts of Mexico their heritage is associated with (largely), which is also influenced by how much native Mayan blood they have versus Spanish heritage.

Also, Asian gangs target non-Asian gangs, etc., etc.

The SPLC seems to be obsessed with Islamic versus Christian versus Judaic bloks.

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 09:51 PM

16. You're dreaming

 

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 11:21 PM

17. You sound like you are hoping it will happen. N/T

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #17)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 11:39 PM

18. I got that idea too nt

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:49 AM

20. what does this sound like?

GreenStormCloud (8,856 posts)
1. One can be all it takes.

Last edited Sat Dec 8, 2012, 07:48 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

That's why I carry a gun, just in case I need to give a violent criminal that one special bullet.

Aw, what the heck. I'll be generous and give him three or four.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:57 AM

21. Sounds like I was yanking your chain.

Is a gift of three or four being stingy?

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:52 AM

19. we just need a 1970s Crown Vic

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:27 AM

22. A.R.M. Join, or die!

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:46 AM

23. Alex Jones fans with shitty taste in music

I'm missing the point. Other than a strong dislike for the UN, I don't see the connection to the OP.

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:22 AM

24. The Boy Scouts should be added to the list. nt

 

nt

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 05:25 PM

25. Unorganized militia members you are, & a joke it is

jody wrote: . Many DUers are ignorant of state militias.. a State’s militia, e.g. Ohio which includes all male and females 17 to 67 years of age.

I'm afraid it's you who doesn't understand state militias, jody.

jody posted: a State’s militia, e.g. Ohio which includes all male and females 17 to 67 years of age. Chapter 5923: ORGANIZED MILITIA
-- 5923.01 State militia membership - limitation of troops. (A) The Ohio organized militia consist of all citizens of the state who are not permanently handicapped, as handicapped is defined in section 4112.01 of the Revised Code, who are more than seventeen years, and not more than sixty-seven years, of age unless exempted as provided in section 5923.02 of the Revised Code, and who are members of one of the following:
(1) The Ohio national guard; (2) The Ohio naval militia; (3) The Ohio military reserve.
(B) The Ohio national guard, including both the Ohio air national guard and the Ohio army national guard, the Ohio naval militia, and the Ohio military reserve are known collectively as the Ohio organized militia.
(C) The Ohio naval militia and the Ohio military reserve are known collectively as the state defense forces.

(D) The unorganized militia consists of those citizens of the state as described in division (A) of this section who are not members of the Ohio organized militia.


So you see there are two classes of ohio militia (and all states militias in USA), the ORGANIZED MILITIA and the UNORGANIZED MILITIA.
The Organized Militia, from above, consists of members of the Ohio National Gds, the Ohio naval militia, the Ohio military reserves.
The UNORGANIZED MILITIA is comprised of all other ohioans 17 - 67 who are not in the Ohio Organized militia.
As likely holds relatively true with the national gds as a whole, only about 2% of ohioans belong in the Organized Militia, while about 98% of Ohioans belong in the UNORGANIZED Militia class (snicker).
Better sit down jody, the Unorganized Militia, by definition of unorganized, fails the 2ndA litmus test, which clearly states a 'well regulated militia'.

The unorganized militia is/are a joke. You might be in one, or maybe retired, ha. Where do you/did you drill in the unorg'd militia? Who is/was your commanding officer? What was your pay grade? where did you drill? where do you mobilize? Did you get a watch when you retired?
See? nobody can answer these questions except with a blank stare, because they are TOTALLY UNORGANIZED.
Stop believing in the 2nd Amendment Mythology, MORE GUNS MORE LIES.

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #25)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:32 AM

32. Bad reading. 2A references "well-regulated," possessing and

knowing how to use a firearm suitable for military service. Anyone who fits that status is in the large group called "militia." That a state forms an organized militia does not deny an unorganized militia. That is clear. If state authorities call up the militia, they have the duty to answer the questions you pose, though I don't think they give a rip re watches.

What does "more guns more lies" mean, except a bad quip contrived of a long-debunked gun-banner slogan?

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #32)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:02 PM

34. Where the hell did you get that drivel from??

Last edited Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:09 AM - Edit history (1)

Well-regulated in the 2nd means exactly what the constitution says it means: organized, armed and disciplined, all according to federal guidelines, and trained under the authority of the States according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

The ONLY people that fit that status, are those who are severally and respectively enrolled in THE Militia, and are actually trained by the State.

It certainly doesn't include Bubba and his AR running around some field in Jerkwater, USA.

No worries, though, those types, and just about eveyone else who draws breath, do get a bone - they can proudly claim to be in the UNorganized (read UNwell-regulated) militia, (plus any other mis-used noun - that has some obscure tie-in with a real govt military entity - they want to call themselves when they gather in their armed circle jerks.).


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Response to jmg257 (Reply #34)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:00 AM

35. Willful ignorance? The states have unorganized militia as per their laws...

in accordance with law.

You are fascinated with bubba, I am not. Those who are in the UNorganized militia are subject to training and discipline when called up, bearing a suitable arm in working condition, and with the knowledge of that arm's use.

They have to show up with that arm, hence the Second Amendment's protection of the RKBA, the OPERATIVE language of 2A.

You really need to concede that the "militia clause" is the fed's announcement that it has an interest in 2A. This is the standard, common interpretation of 2A.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #35)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:56 AM

37. More nonsense. As EVERYONE knows - UNorganized is NOT well regulated.

"Those who are in the UNorganized militia are subject to training and discipline when called up...
bearing a suitable arm in working condition..."



And all of that, especially since it is not a reality, has little to do with the 2nd Amendment, which refers to very specific entities - the well-regulated Militias of the Several States.

Otherwise...

Please tell us exactly which laws about 60% of We the people are in violation of since they don't own any arms?
Please tell us exactly which arms you own that were mandated you keep and bear by the Congress?
Please tell us exactly what discipline has been mandated by Congress for you to be trained/subject to?


I am also well familiar with the government's interest, and the requirement, of perserving a well-regulated militia (if not THE well-regulated Militia). There is really nothing to concede. The fed's 'announcement'(?) was to appease the States that the well armed and well-trained Militias of the States always be secured. And rightly so, constitutionally they had very vital roles to fill to ensure our liberty & tranquility. Of course that well-explained purpose for the 2nd was obsoleted by the people with the Dick Acts and National Defense Act, and the National Guard became the lawfully recognized well-regulated militia.

The primary reason for the 2nd has also been obsoleted, since the people obviously have no problems with a huge standing Army.


Well-regulated Militia.
These days - if you are not in the National Guard, YOU are not part of it.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #37)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:34 PM

39. jmg & rawle spot on

jmg is spot on here;

eleanors wrote: Those who are in the UNorganized militia are subject to training and discipline when called up, bearing a suitable arm in working condition, and with the knowledge of that arm's use.

I don't believe that is in the militia act of ~1916 (aka charles dick act), that people need bring a suitable arm in working condition, with them. The govt had lotsa rifles by then & will equip you just like the army will.
.. tho the requirement you write of is, or rather was, in the now defunct militia act of 1792. Please clarify, are you speaking of the 1916 militia act? or the 1792 militia act?

elen: They {UNorg'd militia members} have to show up with that arm, hence the Second Amendment's protection of the RKBA, the OPERATIVE language of 2A.

Again, the UNorg'd militia was not in existence when 2ndA was written in 1791. UNorg'd militia came about due people not showing up for militia duty, or paying others to do it for them, or shirking training once they got there. The UNorganized militia in it's inception was NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF, buncha scofflaws, thinking they had RKBA with no obligation whatsoever. SCt Justice Story ~1830's complained of this.

elen: the "militia clause" is the fed's announcement ... This is the standard, common interpretation of 2A... the Second Amendment's protection of the RKBA, the OPERATIVE language of 2A

You mimic scalias convoluted subversion of 2ndA into an individual RKBA. That the militia clause was simply a 'prefatory announcement' as you &/or scalia put it, and that the RKBA clause is the 'operative controlling' clause, as you &/or scalia put it.
.. Scalia also cited wm rawle who wrote in 1825 that the militia clause was a proposition which few could dissent with, & then rawle wrote the RKBA clause was a COROLLARY to it.
.. so scalia contradicts himself by citing Wm Rawle, since scalia is contending that a COROLLARY controls the proposition IT WAS DERIVED FROM. RIDICULOUS.

William Rawle, 1825, A View of the Constitution: "In the second article, it is declared, that a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state; a proposition from which few will dissent.
... The corollary, from the first position is, that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."


A corollary is something which is derived from, or follows logically from, a law, rule or proposition higher above it.

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 05:40 PM

26. Yikes...

55 in FL...even more than Texas.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 06:13 PM

27. GA certainly has a hate on too

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Response to lunasun (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 06:31 PM

29. GA leads on a per capita basis...

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 06:13 PM

28. even more in California

but how big are these groups?

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #28)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 06:32 PM

30. California is huge...

53 Representatives in Congress, vs 27 for Florida...so on a per capita basis, FL is worse than CA. But GA is a freaking insane asylum.

Who knows how big they are. But 14 of the 55 in FL are Black Separatist groups... I guess technically they are hate group....

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:36 AM

31. anti govt militia member sentenced

Southern Poverty Law center list over 1,000 active hate groups in the U.S..

I remember being leery in the past, of the southern poverty law center. But that's beside today's point, that being one of them thar anti govt militia members, is in a long time at Hotel Graybar.

jan 2013 Reuters ANCHORAGE, Alaska -- The leader of an anti-government militia in Alaska who proclaimed that "God's law" trumps "man's law" was sentenced to nearly 26 years in prison for a plot to kill govt employees he portrayed as his enemies.

Schaeffer Cox, the 28-year-old leader of the Alaska Peacekeepers Militia and a onetime candidate for the Alaska House of Representatives, apologized through tears for his actions. "Well, I put myself here, with my own words, and I feel horrible about that, and I hurt my family, and that's who's really paying, and I feel horrible about that," he said at a hearing in federal court in Anchorage. "I put a lot of people in fear by the things I said and the crazy stuff that was coming out of my mouth,"

Cox was convicted last summer of conspiring to murder federal and state govt officials, including judges and law enforcement agents, soliciting others to commit murder and related weapons charges. Evidence included a cache of illegal weapons, detailed lists of potential targets, testimony of government informants and tape recordings of speeches and meetings, some made secretly.

Election, economy spark growth of militias ... During the trial, Cox spent two days on the witness stand, at times confidently telling the jury his philosophy and likening himself to civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi. He testified that he sincerely believed govt agents were planning to kill him and that he was justified in taking steps to defend his family against the police.

'Master manipulator' But at sentencing, Cox disavowed many of those stances. He and his attorney cited a post-trial psychological evaluation that concluded Cox was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, delusions and a paranoid personality disorder.
"I want to note that he has never been so ill as to not be able to have followers and convince people to follow him," The 310-month sentence falls well short of the life term Cox could have received.

Cox's sentence was the same as that imposed on one of his followers, Fairbanks-area resident, who was convicted of murder conspiracy and weapons charges. 66-year-old wife got 12 years for her role in the plot. A fourth defendant, 38, was sentenced in September to five years in prison for weapons charges.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/09/16426977-alaska-militia-leader-schaeffer-cox-sentenced-to-26-years-in-prison?lite

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:54 PM

33. Unorg'd & org'd militias, 2 separate entities

Eleanors: Bad reading. 2A references "well-regulated," possessing and knowing how to use a firearm suitable for military service.

The 'militia act of 1792' addresses what you wrongly assign to the 2ndA, as far as specifically possessing a firearm. Scalia contradicts you as well, when he said 'well reg'd' meant only discipline & training. The militia act of 1792 said that every militia member should provide his own firearm, but few could.
wiki: In Heller, Supreme Court stated that "he adjective 'well-regulated' implies nothing more than the imposition of proper discipline and training."

eleanor: Anyone who fits that status is in the large group called "militia." That a state forms an organized militia does not deny an unorganized militia. That is clear.

.. you cite the 2ndA and then cite something out of the 2ndA's jurisdiction - the unorg'd militia.
The term 'unorganized militia' first appeared about 1830, near 40 years after 2ndA was written. Unorg'd militia could not possibly be what founding fathers intended when 2ndA was written, that being a 'well reg'd militia' comprised of white males 17-45.
.. the 'unorganized militia' officially came into being upon the militia act of ~1916(?yr?), after teddy roosevelt called the old militia system under 1792 militia act 'worthless & obsolete', & revamped it with the national gds being the 'organized militia' and everyone else not in the nat gds, or naval militia counterpart, as being the 'UNorganized militia'.

repeat eleanor: Anyone who fits that status is in the large group called "militia. "That a state forms an organized militia does not deny an unorganized militia. That is clear

Since the 'state', whether you mean individual state or national entity/polity, has not formed an organized militia from the UNorganized militia since ~1942, the de facto meaning of unorg'd militia is useless, obsolete, worthless as roosevelt said.
Unorg'd militia have not been activated as an 'organized militia' since 1942. (They have activated as emergency aid patrols after disasters, but never as an armed militia to put down rebellion or tyranny or invasion. The fear is if they were armed they would be vigilante, posse comitatus)
The activation of the UNorg'd militia in 1942 was on the west coast in fear of japanese invasion after pearl harbor. About 5,000 men showed up in oregon, that's all of one regiment! - in large part world war one veterans. In other words, the predominant bulk of americans didn't bother showing up to 'answer the call'.

HWBush federalized the california state gds afte LA riots, but not the 'UNorg'd militia'. I was at univ of maryland when maryland national gds walked the campus during vietnamwar. But it was not the UNorg'd militia - actually I was an UNorg'd militiaman then. Wheee.

In the war of 1812 about 10,000 americans did not show up for obligatory militia duty under actual 2ndA & militia act of 1792 obligations. Are you contending that those scofflaws were still entitled to the same right to keep & bear arms as those half million who DID SHOW UP????

(A) The Ohio organized militia consist of all citizens of the state {notes specific requirements} and who are members of one of the following:
..(1) The Ohio national guard;
..(2) The Ohio naval militia;
..(3) The Ohio military reserve.
(B) The Ohio national guard, including both the Ohio air nat gd and the Ohio army nat gd, the Ohio naval militia, and the Ohio military reserve are known collectively as the Ohio organized militia.
(C) The Ohio naval militia and the Ohio military reserve are known collectively as the state defense forces.
(D) The UNorganized militia consists of those citizens of the state as described in divisionA of this section who are not members of the Ohio organized militia.


So you see, the organized militia and the UNorganized militia, are indeed two separate entities.
The UNorganized militia provides a force pool for later induction into an organized militia, but since it's never been done on a large scale outside the wwII regiment of 5,000, well, it becomes a moot point.

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:06 AM

36. Organized Hate Group

 

aka: in-laws during the holidays.

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:14 PM

38. Luckily these Cheeto-munchers are too out of shape and cowardly.

They'll never prove to be anything more than a minor annoyance.

These bumbling meth heads ( oops, I mean "hardened patriot freedom fighters") would give each other up to avoid a parking ticket, even. They talk the talk, but they've been saying the same crap since Clinton.

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Response to safeinOhio (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:52 PM

40. Other states need to adopt California's gang injunction legislation...

...strip those assholes of their rights.

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