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Sun Dec 23, 2012, 05:34 PM

 

327 people have been killed by dogs over the last 20 years

a large subset of which involved pit bulls leading to 650 U.S. cities to enact breed-specific laws. Breed-specific laws do recognize victim injury and require owners of these breeds to abide by safety rules before an attack, such as mandatory sterilization and muzzling when off-property. If the owner fails to abide, sizable fines result. Most breed-specific laws also require owners to carry liability insurance in the amount of $100,000 to $250,000. So if an attack does occur, the victim can receive medical payment.

Perhaps a "breed specific" form of gun law could also be legislated covering all semi-automatic weapons. Safety rules could include proof of ownership of a gun safe that meets a legislated standard, proof that the owner of said weapon attended mandatory safety classes, a psychological test to rule out the mentally unfit, age requirement - owner has to be over 25 years old, yearly license renewal and of course insurance.

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Reply 327 people have been killed by dogs over the last 20 years (Original post)
Toronto Dec 2012 OP
CreekDog Dec 2012 #1
SummerSnow Dec 2012 #2
Squinch Dec 2012 #28
gejohnston Dec 2012 #3
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #4
Toronto Dec 2012 #5
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #6
Toronto Dec 2012 #7
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #8
discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2012 #19
gejohnston Dec 2012 #11
Toronto Dec 2012 #15
gejohnston Dec 2012 #18
gejohnston Dec 2012 #10
intaglio Dec 2012 #9
Remmah2 Dec 2012 #34
intaglio Dec 2012 #35
Recursion Dec 2012 #12
get the red out Dec 2012 #13
spin Dec 2012 #14
Toronto Dec 2012 #16
spin Dec 2012 #26
gejohnston Dec 2012 #17
spin Dec 2012 #20
gejohnston Dec 2012 #22
spin Dec 2012 #37
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #23
spin Dec 2012 #27
Toronto Dec 2012 #21
gejohnston Dec 2012 #24
Toronto Dec 2012 #25
gejohnston Dec 2012 #29
Toronto Dec 2012 #30
gejohnston Dec 2012 #31
Toronto Dec 2012 #32
gejohnston Dec 2012 #33
intaglio Dec 2012 #36

Response to Toronto (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 05:37 PM

1. not 20 children in one place in one minute by one person (or one dog)

your post is ridiculous.

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Response to Toronto (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 05:37 PM

2. Clearly those dogs had a mental illness

Sarcasm

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Response to SummerSnow (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:44 PM

28. Dogs don't kill people. It's the people aiming the dogs that kill people.

And there's something about spoons in there too.

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Response to Toronto (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 05:39 PM

3. breed specific legislation is largely based on

misinformation and media induced hysteria.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Pit-Bull-Placebo-Aggression/dp/0972191410
Come to think of it, there seems to be a parallel between pit bulls and "assault weapons", thanks.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 05:43 PM

4. So, Are You Equating New Gun Laws With Past Pet Laws? It Seems As if You Are

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #4)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 05:52 PM

5. I'm just looking at the type of legislation

 

which recognizes the added danger connected with pit bulls or as I would suggest with semi-automatic weapons. How many accidental deaths have occurred in the last 20 years because of semi-automatic weapons. Actually, I think this type of law should apply to all guns, not just semi-autos, but I seriously doubt anyone would support it vis-a-vis revolvers. Without stepping on 2A, it would require more care, thought and attendant precautions to own a semi-automatic weapon.

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Response to Toronto (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 05:54 PM

6. The Better Path Is To Repeal The 2nd Amendment Then The Legal Parsing Is Not Such An Issue

or impediment to change.

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 05:57 PM

7. So while you're waiting for 2A to be repealed

 

which will take some doing, you do nothing?

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Response to Toronto (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 05:59 PM

8. The Broader Goal Is 2nd Amendment Repeal - Each Incremental Gun Law Is A Gain Along That Trajectory

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:01 PM

19. re: "...Repeal The 2nd Amendment..."

You can't be serious?

Sorry I couldn't resist.



How many times does this need to be repeated? The Bill of Rights protects preexisting rights. It doesn't grant anything. Even if you repeal, delete and expunge the entire thing, the underlying rights remain.

Good luck

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Response to Toronto (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:25 PM

11. there was no added danger of pit bulls

that was my point. The whole thing was sensationalist media hype. Accidental shootings are lower in the US than there were 20 years ago. Your comparison is absurd on so many levels.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:34 PM

15. I think because of your pro-gun agenda you are being

 

deliberately obtuse. I am not in any way comparing guns to dogs. That would be absurd. No dog, not even the perhaps unfairly reviled pit bull represents one millionth of one percent of the danger posed by guns in general. I am certainly not debating the issue of (dog) breed specific bans, which I agree border on the hysterical. I am referring however to the model of legislation which is a precedent in some ways.

PS - the only thing that the poor pit bulls (responsible for fatal attacks) and guns have in common is irresponsible owners. The kind of whack jobs that beat their dogs, make them crazy killers, put giant studded collars on them to show everyone how macho they are and how scary their dog is, and then can't control their behavior. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they were also gun nuts.

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Response to Toronto (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:51 PM

18. no, they are usually the same illegal gun owners that

that sell drugs and belong to gangs. The problem isn't "macho gun nuts" the problem is the criminal gangs that are funded, armed, and fueled by the fucking drug culture.

In all, yes blaming me, some target shooter, or some other " gun nut" what ever that is, for the acts of criminal gangs fueled and funded by the drug culture does border on the hysterical and asinine. It is as asinine as wanting confiscate registered pistols from restricted PAL holders after a couple gangsters shoot it out with illegal pistols with illegal magazines.

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #4)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:22 PM

10. equating the basis for them

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Response to Toronto (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:15 PM

9. NRA talking point

One evil does not excuse another.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:08 AM

34. Not so fast bucko.

 

Apparently there is a secret society of gangsta pooches.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:41 AM

35. LOL! n/t

On second thoughts you might just start a new conspiracy theory with this ...

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Response to Toronto (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:49 PM

12. Actually the parallels between "pit bulls" and "assault weapons" are striking

They've both become associated with the idea of "scary" (dog or gun) through bad reporting.

So, any large molosser dog gets called a "pit bull", and any rifle with a black finish and pistol grip gets called an "assault weapon" (in both cases, pit bulls and assault weapons are a tiny fraction of the population that get called that).

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Response to Toronto (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 07:00 PM

13. Crazy guys and dogs

A nut-case with a big dog would not be able to get it to rapidly kill 26 people.

Hell, I can't get my dog to do a startline stay in a dog agility trial.

A functioning assault weapon will obey it's master.

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Response to Toronto (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:27 PM

14. I see some significant problems with your idea. ...

A law covering semi-auto firearms such as you suggest would prove a burden to honest and responsible gun owners but have little or no effect on criminals.

Who would run the psychological tests? Considering that there are 80 million gun owners in our nation the overwhelming majority of which are honest and responsible and own at least one semi-auto firearm, how long would the waiting list be for a psychological test and how much might this effect effective counseling for those who didn't own firearms but suffer from mental disorders?

I feel that such an effort would largely be a total waste of time and might actually lead to more problems than it would prevent. For example a person who might benefit from treatment for severe depression might commit suicide by other means than a firearm because he/she was unable to find help as the appointment calendars of every individual who was qualified to help was filled with gun owners who had absolutely no mental issues. You also suggest testing on a yearly basis. Can you imagine how much time would be wasted testing 99.999% of semi-automatic gun owners every year in order to cull out the .001% who MIGHT pose a danger. Also a person with truly severe mental issues might pass the test while another person who would never create a problem would be rejected.

I do agree with your idea of requiring anyone who wished to own a semi-auto firearm to have proof of safety training prior to being allow to purchase a semi-auto weapon however I would extend it to the purchase of any firearm or ammo. The course and test could be conducted on line or in all high schools. Of course this idea would be strongly opposed by the NRA.



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Response to spin (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:39 PM

16. I was suggesting a one time mental test,

 

which, if possible, would be administered by the licensing body.

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Response to Toronto (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:40 PM

26. I carefully reread your post ...

and while you did suggest a yearly license renewal you did not say that that would involve another psychological test. Therefore I apologize for making a poor assumption.

However I still feel that the cost and time involved in testing most of the 80 million gun owners would be largely a waste of time and money.

There might be a benefit for the gun control side as many harmless gun owners could be flagged as potentially dangerous and their weapons taken away. To those who favor draconian gun control this would be considered a great start.

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Response to spin (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:41 PM

17. at the risk of being cynical

would prove a burden to honest and responsible gun owners
I'm inclined to think that is the idea. Based on some of their posts, honest and responsible gun owner is an oxymoron.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:06 PM

20. So you are suggesting that 80 million people in our nation are dishonest and irresponsible ...

because they own firearms.

In my opinion that is a bit of stretch.

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Response to spin (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:09 PM

22. that's not my opionion

I think that is the opinion of many gun control advocates, just based on some of the posts here and factbook. If I thought that, I would have to include myself.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:56 PM

37. My fault. I thought was relying to one of the draconian gun control supporters. ...

I didn't look at your handle.

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Response to spin (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:15 PM

23. a bit of stretch. LOL and spin wins the understatement of the year contest!

damn near spit soda out my nose on that one, dude.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:42 PM

27. Thanks for your support. (n/t)

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:06 PM

21. It wouldn't be the first time

 

that responsible citizens had to be inconvenienced for the greater good. If it prevents even one accidental gun death or one spree killing by a mentally deranged person, is the price too high? Is your right to shoot for fun more important than someone else's right not to get shot. The life you save might be your own.

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Response to Toronto (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:17 PM

24. so if

one gun ban keeps someone from defending themselves from home invaders, resulting in the family's murders, how big of a price is that? It works both ways. Of course, that doesn't bring out politicians and the infotainment industry does it? Neither do the many children that are beaten to death by at home either. The people who are doing the shooting will not be affected either way. While there is the rare deranged person, how much will they be counterbalanced home invasion situations above? Ultimately, nobody actually knows. I do know this: The worst school massacre in US history would not have been prevented by any gun law. 38 children and six adults killed and about 60 wounded. After beating his wife to death, the killer planted three bombs in the Bath Elementary school in Bath, MI. He killed himself by rigging a bomb in his car.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:36 PM

25. Did I say anything about a weapons ban?

 

Making AR-15s and other semi-automatic weapons harder to get is not going to suddenly make everyone a target for home invaders. Besides, home invaders (plural) would also have semi-automatic weapons, maybe automatic weapons - they could just as likely kill you before you got all of them. You would be just as dead. As to the Bath massacre, well you just have to be satisfied with preventing what you can. But just because you can't prevent everything, you don't throw up your hands and say why bother. That's like saying because the police can't catch all the criminals, we shouldn't bother with the expense of a police force.

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Response to Toronto (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:55 PM

29. they often don't have guns

baseball bats are the most common weapon in violent crime. The most common firearms is a pistol. Automatic weapons in crime, even among gangs, are more common in Europe than the US.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 10:15 PM

30. Then I guess you wouldn't need an AR 15

 

to defend yourself. A pistol would do the job just as well.

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Response to Toronto (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:09 PM

31. I don't own one

I still feel safe in the sticks, I don't compete in target competitions that use them, I actually prefer lever actions and single shots for hunting. That's my choice. I don't know about Florida, but the most common AR round isn't legal for hunting in Wyoming because it isn't powerful enough for mule deer or proghorn. Never mind elk. I would like to get a M-1 carbine sometime. don't worry, they have wooden stocks.
I carried the M-16 at various times for the Army and Air Force.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:12 PM

32. Then you would be unlikely to be subject to any

 

restrictive gun legislation.

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Response to Toronto (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:18 PM

33. depends on how it affects pistols

I look at it from a philosophical stance. The problem with some gun owners, their bolt actions will be "evil sniper rifles" next. I honestly think it is a divide and conquer tactic in a culture war that has more to do with culture war and not public safety. While some do honestly believe in the public safety angle, one study show that 75 percent are culture warriors. I have to defend symbols of my culture.

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Response to spin (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:59 AM

36. I see some significant problems with your reasoning

A law covering semi-auto firearms such as you suggest would prove a burden to honest and responsible gun owners but have little or no effect on criminals.
By this "logic" governments should stop making laws about drug use or automobile use because it would prove a burden to honest and responsible drug users or car owners.

Who would run the psychological tests? Considering that there are 80 million gun owners in our nation the overwhelming majority of which are honest and responsible and own at least one semi-auto firearm, how long would the waiting list be for a psychological test and how much might this effect effective counseling for those who didn't own firearms but suffer from mental disorders?
Difficult logistics are only difficult, not insurmountable.

I feel that such an effort would largely be a total waste of time and might actually lead to more problems than it would prevent.
Do carry on, Gov ... sorry, Do carry on, spin.

For example a person who might benefit from treatment for severe depression might commit suicide by other means than a firearm because he/she was unable to find help as the appointment calendars of every individual who was qualified to help was filled with gun owners who had absolutely no mental issues.
There is a term for this sort of fallacy - a straw man.

You also suggest testing on a yearly basis. Can you imagine how much time would be wasted testing 99.999% of semi-automatic gun owners every year in order to cull out the .001% who MIGHT pose a danger.
Can you imagine the time wasted by autopsy of 20 children and by the crime scene management of a slaughter of that size. Are you not shocked by the "time wasted" by parents going to funerals, by the wasted money spent on presents that would have gone to deceased infants. Perhaps you have a fellow feeling with Scrooge before his callousness was pointed out when viewed the children beneath the robe of the Ghost of Christmas Present.

Also a person with truly severe mental issues might pass the test while another person who would never create a problem would be rejected.
Now contrast the current limit on gun ownership in the USA - money.

I do agree with your idea of requiring anyone who wished to own a semi-auto firearm to have proof of safety training prior to being allow to purchase a semi-auto weapon however I would extend it to the purchase of any firearm or ammo. The course and test could be conducted on line or in all high schools. Of course this idea would be strongly opposed by the NRA.
This is the only sane thing you have said.

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