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Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:31 AM

The future of armed self-defense?

In light of the Newtown slaughter, our elected leaders are calling for a renewal of the now-expired assault weapons ban (AWB).

For several good reasons, this is not an effective idea, and given that the people calling for this are presumably intelligent people that are veterans of the gun-control debate, then one can easily conclude they are more concerned with the appearance of action then actual action.

My opinion is that if they are really concerned about people owning rifles like AR-15s and AK-47-ish and want to get rid of them, they would not try to draw some arbitrary line between "sporting" and "assault" weapons. The weapon used in Newtown was likely legally defined as a "sporting" weapon. I find this likely because Connecticut mirrored the Federal AWB, sans expiration date, in our statutes. If the shooter's mother bought the gun in the last 18 years, it was not, by definition, an "assault weapon". And not having enough secondary features to qualify it as an "assault weapon" didn't seem to make the rifle less deadly or effective when used for malicious purposes.

No, if they were serious about it, they would admit there is no difference between "sporting" semiautomatic rifles and shotguns, and "assault weapon" semiautomatic rifles and shotguns. They would simply call for a ban on semiautomatic long guns. No more AR-15s, no more AK-47s, no more SKSes, no more BARs, no more M-1 Carbines or Garands.


This got me thinking... for self and home defense, what would replace the AR-15 on gun dealer's shelves? What would replace the AK-47 in a person's closet?

Such a disruption in new guns sales would unleash a torrent of new designs on the marketplace. I think we would see the following types of rifles emerge:

The tactical lever-action.

Gone is the Old West blued-steel-with-walnut of a Winchester 1894 or a Marlin 1895. We're looking at black synthetic stocks and durable matte-black finishes on the metal. Short barrels, 16¼" or so, will common. The buttstocks stocks will likely be folding or telescoping, too.

Goodbye to the fixed tubular magazine; hello detachable stick magazines. And no more .30-30s, we're looking at 7.62x39mm, .223 Rem, .30 Carbine, .45 ACP, .357 Sig, 9mm Luger, .38 Super, 10mm Auto, and .40 S&W. We're looking at lever actions that take handgun and rifle magazines, from 7 to 30 rounds.

The top of the receiver will have a Picatinny rail, for mounting red-dot tactical sights, and the foregrip will also have rails mounted on it near the muzzle to mount flashlights and lasers.



The tactical pump rifle.

Pump-action rifles, while not common, have been around for quite a while. What will happen when semi-auto rifles are banned is that millions of pump-shotgun users will turn to tactical pump rifles.

And I'll bet that the same people making semi-automatic AR-15s will rather quickly come up with pump-action versions. Same operating mechanism, same accessories and magazines, except part of the foregrip will shuttle back and forth to drive the mechanism instead of combustion gasses.

And, of course, plenty of new slide-action designs will be thought up as well. Black stock, black metal finish, adjustable or folding buttstocks, fed from detachable magazines, and well-equipped with Picatinny rails to hold red-dot sights, lasers, and flashlights



We all know what happens when Congress bans assault weapons; people get semi-automatic rifles that are as close to being an assault weapon as possible. It's been done, and it's being done as I type this in the several states, including my own, that has an AWB written into state law.


I thought it might be an interesting exercise to guess what would happen if a real, substantial change was made to our guns laws.

73 replies, 8663 views

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Arrow 73 replies Author Time Post
Reply The future of armed self-defense? (Original post)
krispos42 Dec 2012 OP
gejohnston Dec 2012 #1
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #3
PavePusher Dec 2012 #16
Travis_0004 Dec 2012 #26
PavePusher Dec 2012 #28
Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #41
sir pball Mar 2013 #73
krispos42 Jan 2013 #31
gejohnston Jan 2013 #32
krispos42 Jan 2013 #37
crazyrayray Jan 2013 #67
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #2
beevul Dec 2012 #4
mwrguy Dec 2012 #5
Howzit Jan 2013 #34
msongs Dec 2012 #6
discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2012 #8
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #7
Glaug-Eldare Dec 2012 #9
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #15
Kaleva Dec 2012 #11
jeepnstein Dec 2012 #13
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #14
Kaleva Dec 2012 #17
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #18
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #62
Kaleva Jan 2013 #63
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #65
Kaleva Jan 2013 #66
Kaleva Dec 2012 #10
krispos42 Dec 2012 #20
Kaleva Dec 2012 #21
krispos42 Dec 2012 #22
gejohnston Dec 2012 #23
Puha Ekapi Dec 2012 #29
krispos42 Dec 2012 #30
jmg257 Dec 2012 #12
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #19
roninjedi Dec 2012 #24
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #25
roninjedi Dec 2012 #27
Howzit Jan 2013 #33
AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #52
sylvi Jan 2013 #35
krispos42 Jan 2013 #38
Lurks Often Jan 2013 #42
krispos42 Jan 2013 #43
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #36
krispos42 Jan 2013 #40
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #44
krispos42 Jan 2013 #45
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #46
krispos42 Jan 2013 #47
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #48
krispos42 Jan 2013 #49
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #50
krispos42 Jan 2013 #51
gejohnston Jan 2013 #54
Howzit Jan 2013 #68
iiibbb Jan 2013 #39
overthehillvet Jan 2013 #53
Speck Tater Jan 2013 #55
gejohnston Jan 2013 #56
Speck Tater Jan 2013 #57
gejohnston Jan 2013 #58
Speck Tater Jan 2013 #59
gejohnston Jan 2013 #60
Speck Tater Jan 2013 #64
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #61
gejohnston Mar 2013 #69
guardian Mar 2013 #70
Callisto32 Mar 2013 #71
krispos42 Mar 2013 #72

Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:45 AM

1. Blasphemy

The tactical lever-action.

Gone is the Old West blued-steel-with-walnut of a Winchester 1894 or a Marlin 1895. We're looking at black synthetic stocks and durable matte-black finishes on the metal. Short barrels, 16¼" or so, will common. The buttstocks stocks will likely be folding or telescoping, too.
putting plastic on a lever action? Blasphemy.
I saw on an Australian shooting site a pic of someone with a Picatinny rail on a lever action.
That said, I have been checking these out.
http://www.grizzlycustom.com/custom_lever_action_rifle_tactical.html

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:54 AM

3. Blasphemy indeed!

That is one ugly rifle.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:52 PM

16. Well, you're gonna hate this.....

 

http://www.mossberg.com/product/rifles-lever-action-centerfire-464-spx/41026

I rather like it.

Edit: I want mine in .45 Colt, or maybe .45/70.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:35 PM

26. I'm not usually a fan of gun confisation, but I might make an exception for that gun.

New law. Anybody who owns that gun is required to turn it in. They will be issued a marlin 1895 as a replacement.

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:52 PM

28. That's crazy talk, you spoilsport.

 

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #26)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:47 PM

41. LOL!

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #26)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 12:21 PM

73. My 1895 Guide is tactical!

It doesn't LOOK very skeery, it's still got all that lovely wood and just a ghostring sight, I used to use it on stalk hunts in the deep brush in Maine...and as my primary home-defense gun! Perfect for it - light, handles superfast, loads as quickly as a semi, and shoots 45-70 Modern.

"Tactical" is how you use the damn thing, not how it looks.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:19 AM

31. That's along the line of what I envisioned

http://www.mossberg.com/assets/scripts/timthumb.php?w=625&zc=0&src=


Make it shoot 10mm Auto from a 15-round Glock magazine instead of a .30-30 from a tube mag, and make it compatible with AR-15 hand guards. The 10mm is much shorter than the .30-30, so the lever stroke can be short and fast.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #31)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:55 AM

32. a tactical version of the Browning BLR?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_BLR
Seems that Savage made some too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savage_Model_99

Some modern versions of these?

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #32)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 09:14 AM

37. Yup. Feed it from a standard AR-15, M1 Carbine, or AK-47 magazine.

Or chamber it in a shorter pistol cartridge so the lever sweep is shorter and faster.

Shoot 9x19mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP from a Glock, Ruger, Springfield Armory, Sig, or Beretta magazine. Shoot .357 Sig or 10mm Auto from Glock magazines. Shoot .45 ACP from a M1911 magazine. We might even see rimless .38 Super or 9x23mm Winchester being used.

You could even invent a .357 Mag or .44 Mag with a rimless base, and stick those in a tactical lever action. Magnum power from a reliable, double-stack detachable magazine.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 08:57 PM

67. I saw that

 

It even comes in a Zombie Edition. I never thought of a lever gun until I saw that. I choose .44 mag, or 500 smith.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:46 AM

2. I just got done being badgered by a DU member who exposed me:

Yes, I had to admit that I am against required registration by US citizens of all firearms old and new.

And, I was chastised, I tell you, that I must be ashamed to admit on a Democratic board that I was against mandatory registration, not of new, but of ALL firearms.

WTF is wrong with people?

As to the topic, hell yeah, pump actions rifles will be more reliable over all than autos, same with shotguns, in my experience.

My TEC9j, more than ten years ago, jammed on it's first outing and I sold it. A 12 ga Barretta or Browning semiaiuto, I forget which, jammed too and I swore never again to own one.

Good models, like a 1911, are reliable, but if TPTB decide to outlaw semis, then pumps or levers or other inventions will work just fine.

.....

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:03 AM

4. You might do well to remind those badgers that registration at the federal level is illegal.

Per the firearm owners protection act of 1986.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:14 AM

5. A lever-action was used to slaughter students at Pearl High School in 1997.

It's no different from a bushmaster as far as killing goes.

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Response to mwrguy (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 05:27 AM

34. In other words, "assault" is a verb and not an adjective

Therefore, "assault weapon" is a made-up legal term that really should only be used to identify whatever weapon a particular perp used to commit a particular crime?

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:35 AM

6. its all about the hardware not the dead victims of gun owners nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:03 AM

8. please focus...

...on the SOP concerning the laws which may avert a recurrence of this sad event.
The laws regulate the hardware not the victims.

The secret weapons that everyone has are not rifles and pistols but brains and votes.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:11 AM

7. I've been thinking about this also. I predict new "speed loaders"

 

If they ban detachable magazines, they will develop firearms with non-detachable, but still large capacity, internal magazines.

And then they will design an external "magazine" that you press up against the gun and it rapidly transfers all the rounds into the firearm. Think a PEZ dispenser for bullets.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:26 AM

9. Sounds like LULA 2.0 n/t

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Response to Glaug-Eldare (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:25 PM

15. what is LULA? n/t

 

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:46 AM

11. Internal magazines can only be so big before the gun becomes very awkward to handle.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:04 PM

13. Spend a little time with an M1 Garand.

Eight shot internal clip. Extremely easy to handle. Incredibly powerful. Accepts a bayonet. Fast to reload. But at least it has a nice wooden stock so it's got that going for it.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:23 PM

14. Let us assusme the AR magazine was not removable. Would it become more awkward to handle?

 

Nope.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:02 PM

17. But then you are not talking about an internal magazine.

But you bring up an interesting idea which is being developed by a person who has come up with what appears to be semi-permanent 5 round magazine extensions for the Mosin-Nagant. The rifle is still loaded the same way with stripper clips (or 1 round at a time) but now instead of just holding 5 rounds, the magazine holds 10.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:15 PM

18. Well, that is what I consider an internal magazine.

 

Whether it sticks out below the stock is not material - I'm talking about a non-removable ammo holder.

And yes, I envision these being loaded with some kind of speed-loader in response.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 08:10 AM

62. Do you consider the SKS to have an internal magazine?

 

I, and I think most technical classifications as well, would consider a magazine to be either removable or internal. IMO, if the magazine is affixed to (and integral to) the firearm and the ammo must be loaded into the firearm to fill the magazine - then i would consider that to be an internal magazine.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #62)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 08:49 AM

63. Yes

The SKS magazine is normally loaded thru the action. I'm not feeling well today but I'll ask you as to how easy would it be to reload an AR-15 or semi-auto AK-47 clone thru the action if the gun's magazine had been TIG welded in place so it could not be removed?

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #63)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 01:24 PM

65. on an AR, if you pop the back pin and tilt the upper receiver forward,

 

You could probably use stripper clips. I would say 8-12 seconds using 3x10 round stripper clips. I don't think an AK would be so lucky - you'd probably have to field strip it to get it reloaded.

Reason I sked about the SKS is that they do come with a variety of magazine enhancements.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #65)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 02:05 PM

66. Thanks for the response

I've never handled and AK-47 and had a Bushmaster in my hands once and have no idea whatsoever as how one would load either without actually changing the magazine.

A company does offer a mag enhancement for the bolt action Mosin Nagant which increases mag capacity to 10 rounds but one still loads it via stripper clips.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:43 AM

10. I think one ought to assume that there's going to be a limit on detachable magazine capacity also.

Not saying that what I sent to my congressman is going to be adopted but here is an excerpt from the e-mail I wrote:

"The manufacture and importation of any long gun detachable magazine that holds more then 5 rounds. "

My guess is that there will be a 10 round limit on detachable magazines.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:27 PM

20. Yeah, well, there are probably a billion gun magazines out there now.

Make a tactical lever action that takes AR-15 or AK-47 magazines, or M1 Carbine or Glock or Ruger or Hi-Power or 1911 or whatever magazines.

There are plenty of them out there that hold 11+ rounds.


It's pissing in the wind. The value of the 25-round magazine i have for my 10/22 probably just doubled.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #20)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:43 PM

21. Prohibiting the manufacture or importing of such mags will drive up the cost of them every year.

I don't know if a gun manufactuer would be willing to make a gun that one can't buy new or imported (new or not) magazines for.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #21)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:13 PM

22. Over a multi-decade period of time, maybe.



There are a lot more effective and immediate ways to cut the murder rate.

But this whole exercise is not about cutting the murder rate, it's about trying to stop mass shootings by somehow limiting the hardware available.

Legalizing recreational drugs would result in an immediate and drastic drop in the homicide rate, which would of course include gun-related homicides.

Universal single-payer heath care that included mental health as well as physical health would not only reduce the crime rate, it would also HELP tens of millions of people do better with their everyday lives.



But apparently we're willing to have a high homicide rate as long as the deaths are in dribs and drabs across the country.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:27 PM

23. yet when these things happen in Europe and even China

it seems that these are the things they talk about. Not stricter knife or gun laws. The US seems to be more concerned with theater that doesn't discomfort profits and swallow the infotainment line. Brown people smoking pot in the 1930s, Switchblade crisis in the 1950s, evil killer dog breed of the decade from the 1970s-now,

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:36 PM

29. Do you think....

....that they might try to go after rimfire arms as well?

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Response to Puha Ekapi (Reply #29)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 12:29 PM

30. They might

.22 Magnum is a decently-powered round from a rifle, over 300 ft-pounds of energy. It would not be a bad self-defense round. It's a powerful from a rifle as a 9mm from a pistol, and manufacturers are making self-defense loadings now, I believe.

The Kel-Teck PMR-30 is a handgun with a 30-round magazine of .22 Magnum, and each shot has 150 ft-pounds of energy or so, which puts it above the .32 ACP and below the .380 ACP in terms of power.


So, yeah, the semi-automatic rimfires might fall under such a ban as well.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:59 AM

12. Both have been done.

Just saw a FUGLY tactical lever action in a gun mag, the other was a typical Remington pump in .223, with nylon stock.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:17 PM

19. Interestingly, the only things I am interested in purchasing are

a lever action .30-30, and or, lever action .45 long colt. Maybe a mare gun as well.

I've got one AR. One Mini-14. I'm good.

(Ok, ok, I want a garand, for historical purposes, and nothing whatever to do with a crate of coconuts.)

Edit: And a para-FAL.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 07:14 PM

24. This post is exactly what I've suspected about the technology

There are all kinds of ways to put a storm of bullets downrange without a semi-auto mechanism. Take away the right to buy (or even own) a semi auto and the gun manufacturers and gun buying public will leap into new technlogies. I also forsee more speedloaders for revolvers. If we're restricted to single action revolvers, someone will just develop rapid change-out cylinders. I can imagine home-made ammo using a piezo electric (quartz crystal) spark ignition system to circumvent ammo restrictions.

There are too many clever ways to build new technology to get around a restrictive law. Even if they repeal the Second Amendment and send troops to every American home to kick in the doors and ransack our houses looking for guns it's too easy to build your own crude gun which is safe to operate but absolutely lethal at short range. As long as we have brains, hands, and good hardware stores people will never be without guns of some kind.

I know that's probably infuriating to people wanting all guns out of civilian hands forever, but that's the reality. If there's a demand someone will always find a way to supply it.

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Response to roninjedi (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:29 PM

25. Wrong direction on the timeline?

Semi-auto technology is over 100 years old.
Lever action guns were developed long before semi-autos.

> If we're restricted to single action revolvers, someone will just develop rapid change-out cylinders.

The "wild west" already had those. We have since moved on to "speed loaders" and "moon clips".

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:13 PM

27. I'm sorry. I think I was unclear. I said "new" technologies when I should've said "old"

You're absolutely right about the quick-change cylinders being used in the Old West. Speed loaders and moon clips work when the cylinder swings out or the gun has a break-open design. For the Colt design with a small loading gate it would be more efficient to have a mechanism to change cylinders quickly.

What I think the OP is saying, and what I'm agreeing with, is that these older technologies will come back to the forefront if banning possesion of semi autos is succesful. The 19th Century gun technologies never actually went away. Just add innovations to allow quick reloading and we're back at square one. We still have rapid-fire weapons everywhere.

I suspect that people who hate and fear guns don't generally know much about how guns work and, furthermore, they don't care to know. This gives them blind spots when they consider regulating shooting technology. The basic problem for total gun prohibition is this: if you want to eliminate civilan posseson of high-speed repeating firearms, you'd have to make us not want them. Short of some sort of brutal mental conditioning starting in early childhood I don't see that ever happening.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 05:18 AM

33. When Australia banned semi-auto rifles, they included pump actions too - same thing will happen

in the US; even if there is a delay. Whatever you have will be on the next ban list - just listen to the "ban em all" crowd on DU - there is support for that.

Lever actions are as fast as pumps, even if they take a little more skill to operate fast, so they will be banned in order "to close the loophole" too.

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Response to Howzit (Reply #33)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 01:14 AM

52. The Australian politicial system must operate differently. In this country, there are going to be

 

a lot of politicians voted out of office. We will see an unnecessary repeat of the 1994 election.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 06:22 AM

35. Regarding the lever action

 

A previous thread on tactical lever actions got me thinking - some soul much smarter than me could probably come up with a system of cams and gears or what have you that would considerably reduce the "throw" of the lever necessary for ejecting and chambering a new round, and the lever itself could be made smaller and more ergonomic to further be operated more rapidly. And this is a little crazy but bear with me - when I was a kid I had a toy lever action that had a raisable metal tab on the trigger guard that would simultaneously depress the trigger as the lever came fully up. Of course that would create a whole new safety issue. I don't know how all that would translate into real world engineering or even if it could, but if so it would deliver a very rapid rate of fire. With an appropriate muzzle brake and lower-powered cartridges it probably wouldn't be much of a problem staying on target, either.

Just a musing.

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Response to sylvi (Reply #35)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 09:18 AM

38. I think they have those already.

Cowboy Action Shooting competitors can modify their pistol-caliber lever rifles with some kind of tuned "short-throw" kit. I read about it somewhere recently. Maybe in "Gun Tests" magazine?

And I'm not sure of the legal position of "fire on close" guns.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #38)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:50 PM

42. Been around for years

a properly set up 1866 or 1873 lever action (and yes those are the dates they were invented for the gun illiterates) in the hands of a really good shooter can get 10 rounds off in about 3 seconds.

The average cowboy shooter can get 24-26 aimed shots off in under 40 seconds and the really fast can get 24-26 shots off in under 20 seconds, all with guns or replicas of guns designed prior to 1900:






As for the "fire on close" some older shotguns, such as the Winchester 1897 & Model 12 and some Ithaca's can do that. Having tried it at the range with Winchester 1897 I can state it doesn't work very well if you want to hit a target.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #42)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:00 PM

43. I went to a CAS practice shoot once

A cowboy let me try out his lever-action in .38 Special. I was able to do 10 aimed shots maybe 8 seconds. And I hadn't handled a lever-action in many years, and that was one or two times with a Marlin 39 in .22 rimfire.


The slow part is reloading the tube magazine, but put in a conventional detachable magazine and you've fixed that problem.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 09:06 AM

36. backhanded gun control measure?

No, if they were serious about it, they would admit there is no difference between "sporting" semiautomatic rifles and shotguns, and "assault weapon" semiautomatic rifles and shotguns.

This is the general pro gun double-double talk-talk used to argue against 'assault weapon bans' (AWB). That an AWB would ban almost all guns in america. But it's specious reasoning.

.. 'assault rifle' or 'assault weapon' is a term that's developed over the years to differentiate between traditional rifles and the more aesthetically disturbing 'rambo' style assault rifles with higher capacity clips & which are more used by the military in war.
.. what's a better short word descriptive term than 'assault rifle'? what, you would rather 'high bullet capacity high muzzle velocity rifles with flash suppressors compensators nightsights capable of more terrible internal injury, than traditional rifles'?
.. OK, maybe 'Rambo Rifle' would be better, but you get my drift. It's the modern contemporary terminology to offset traditional rifles from more lethally effective ones.

.. sure, lotsa maybe mosta politicians females moreso, don't understand the diff tween a semi auto & a revolver, a hellfire trig or a 3 rd burst, they only know what they've been briefed on by a partisan class at a capitol hill meeting room. So about all they get out of it is 'semi-automatic' bad, ban semi-automatics, oh, I can abbreviate to semi auto? So they misuse, yes even mislead in their off the cuff talk, which isn't really what a final awb policy would entail. The AIM of an AWB is NOT to ban all or most all rifles as you errantly suggest ala wayne la-conman, it's to ALLOW most traditional rifles while banning the rambo style.
(wow, how do I know this is falling mostly on deaf ears?)

.. When a particular new technology starts to cause more damage than benefits it's time to regulate, if not eliminate them. An AR15 & high cap clips do NOTHING towards making civilian life safer, than another capable rifle could do, an A15 only makes communities more dangerous.
.. some shoddy gun maker, lorcin iirc in the 'ring of fire', made some kinda cheap guns sat night specials which either more prone to misfire or shoot when dropped, & gunnuts foremost to have it corrected, oh my god the gun might kill one of US. Yet when it's in good working order the gun becomes a sacred object to worship, and is immune from regulation since it's protected by the 2nd Amendment (mythology).

Yeah go ahead replace the AR15 with pump actions, it would take 5 to 10 times longer to shoot what adam lanza shot in the same time period, in connecticut, cutting the damage. Ha, an ironic backhanded guncontrol measure.

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #36)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 09:43 AM

40. "assault weapons" are also shotguns and pistols.

There goes your Rambo bullshit.

And by your definition, any semiauto that feeds from a detachable magazine is an "assault weapon". But the new Feinstein proposed ban would not ban all semi-autos with detachable magazines, just "military-looking" ones.

The shooter at the Norway youth-camp massacre used a Ruger Mini-14, a semiautomatic rifle fed from a detachable magazine, and one of the guns that Feinstein says is an acceptable rifle to own.


Regarding pump-actions...


Remington 7600, about $700:



Remington 7600 with "Rambo rifle" upgrade, $53.99:



10-round magazine for Remington 7600, $19.97:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/MAG-779


You really think it would have taken 5 to 10 times longer? Really? Especially when firing much more powerful .243 Win or .308 Win rounds?

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #40)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 04:35 PM

44. anders likes, and his dislikes

krispos: assault weapons" are also shotguns and pistols ... There goes your Rambo bullshit.

Obviously the underlying jist of my post, went over your airhead.

.. by your definition, any semiauto that feeds from a detachable magazine is an "assault weapon". But the new Feinstein proposed ban would not ban all semi-autos with detachable magazines, just "military-looking" ones.

Yawn. Why'nt you find a nice gun board where you can get back slapped by all the other gunnuts? I already addressed the dichotomy in terminology, go back & reread.

The shooter at the Norway youth-camp massacre used a Ruger Mini-14, a semiautomatic rifle fed from a detachable magazine, and one of the guns that Feinstein says is an acceptable rifle to own.

Thanks for the segue: ..1,500-page manifesto by Anders Breivik detailed how he used lax U.S. gun laws to help arm himself before killing 76 people in a gun and bomb attack in Norway... Breivik easily acquired high-capacity ammunition magazines from the United States. Such magazines would be prohibited from manufacture or import if her bill, HR 308, were passed and signed into law. The sale or transfer of high-capacity magazines made after 1994 was banned under a federal assault weapons ban that went into effect that year but expired in 2004
.. Breivik's manifesto described his purchase of 10 30-round ammunition magazines from a U.S. supplier who mailed the devices to him..
Under a section of his manifesto titled "Rifle/gun accessories purchased," Breivik wrote: "10 x 30 round magazines - .223 cal at 34 USD per mag. Had to buy through a smaller US supplier as most suppliers have export limitations… Total cost: 550 USD."

http://politicalcorrection.org/blog/201107280012

Breivik wrote that he failed to acquire certain weapons illegally in the CzechRepub. "I have now sent an application for a Ruger Mini-14 semi-auto rifle. It is the most 'army like' rifle allowed in Norway, although it is considered a 'poor man's' AR-15. I envy our European American brothers as gun laws in Europe sucks in comparison."

krispos: You really think it would have taken 5 to 10 times longer? Really?

Varies per individual, stress involved, previous experience in mass shootings.

Regarding pump-actions... Remington 7600, about $700:

who you trying to impress, with your gun pictures?

PS: Oh, btw, anders brievik does'nt like it in prison. He's upset he can only use stubby pencils to write with, says it's an infringement on his civil rights & making him feel inferior.. But anders likes, high capacity ammo & banana clips, gives him an adrenalin rush, eh, krispos?

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #44)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 09:38 PM

45. You mean "gist", right?

Mmmmm... spellchecker is your friend. Firefox has a built-in one.

How about "tactical"? Or is that not pejorative enough for you? Not that you've refuted my point or anything, but nice of you to try distract from your failure.

Varies per individual, stress involved, previous experience in mass shootings.

We have a baseline of how long it took Fuckwad to massacre 26 people, taking into account stress and experience with firearms. How much longer would it have taken Fuckwad with a pump gun and 10-round magazines?

I'm going to guess about the same. Fuckwad shot his targets multiple times, probably for the sheer red joy of it. With a .308 and 10-round magazines, any time lost working the slide and changing magazines would have been made up for it by spending less time shooting people multiple times.

So 20 children and 6 adults are still dead, but they were shot with a politically-correct firearm. Yay progress.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #45)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 10:55 PM

46. krispos wins on trivial pursuit

krispos: You mean "gist", right? Mmmmm... spellchecker is your friend. Firefox has a built-in one.

??? you harp on a phonetic spelling, mr trivia? is this supposed to be some condemnation to undermine all I wrote pertaining to the ACTUAL ISSUE???? eh, mr word policeman?

How about "tactical"? Or is that not pejorative enough for you? Not that you've refuted my point or anything, but nice of you to try distract from your failure.

Uh huh; nice attempt at ad hominem, but you've even got me lmfao. Do you have any point or points to make, or are you just gonna blither down the old mill stream?
.. and why should 'tactical' be pejorative, other than weird logic? or are you just trying to impress those who'd be impressed by gun pictures?

We have a baseline of how long it took Fuckwad to massacre 26 people, taking into account stress and experience with firearms. How much longer would it have taken Fuckwad with a pump gun and 10-round magazines? I'm going to guess about the same. Fuckwad shot his targets multiple times, probably for the sheer red joy of it. With a .308 and 10-round magazines, any time lost working the slide and changing magazines would have been made up for it by spending less time shooting people multiple times.

Thanks for the trip thru the rightwing spin zone; you missed the light recoil with the ar15 which needn't much compensator, eh rightwing dem?

So 20 children and 6 adults are still dead, but they were shot with a politically-correct firearm. Yay progress.

conjecture, rightwing conjecture which is possible but not probable, vive l'difference.

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #46)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 11:20 PM

47. Only with irritants.

Seems you can dish it, but not take it. Life on DU, however, long or short it maybe be, will be rough on you.


And why should I make points at you when you miss them? My point was that "assault weapon" is a pejorative term, but "tactical" isn't. This seems to have wandered over your head somewhat, hence the character assassination you flail about with.

Thanks for the trip thru the rightwing spin zone; you missed the light recoil with the ar15 which needn't much compensator, eh rightwing dem?

Try YouTube to see how fast a pump rifle can be cycled. I've done rapid-fire with a pump shotgun loaded with 15-pellet magnum buckshot loads, and those kick a hell of a lot harder than a .308. Again, not that you've refuted anything. And again, you're covering it up with personal attacks.

Yeah go ahead replace the AR15 with pump actions, it would take 5 to 10 times longer to shoot what adam lanza shot in the same time period, in connecticut, cutting the damage.

Conjecture much?

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #47)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 11:53 PM

48. tactical mistake ar 15

krispos: And why should I make points at you when you miss them? My point was that "assault weapon" is a pejorative term, but "tactical" isn't. This seems to have wandered over your head somewhat, hence the character assassination you flail about with.

we all know it's easy to be a cheap shot artist, bravo; but your argument collapses with proper scrutiny. From what you wrote it was near impossible to ascertain you were comparing 'tactical' with 'assault rifle' since you didn't make the comparison:

what you wrote: How about "tactical"? Or is that not pejorative enough for you?

solly cholly, not a mind reader, but please play again.

Try YouTube to see how fast a pump rifle can be cycled. I've done rapid-fire with a pump shotgun loaded with 15-pellet magnum buckshot loads, and those kick a hell of a lot harder than a .308. Again, not that you've refuted anything. And again, you're covering it up with personal attacks.

.. aw, and here you were the one complaining about dishing it out yet not taking it;
.. when I shot skeet (fair enoughly) with my 5 shot pump action S&W 12 gauge, I could only shoot one shot accurately, due largely the recoil & the time to pump. Maybe expert skeet shooters shoot 2 or more, dunno, but the recoil was too much, & I'm a middle sized guy, 180 lbs.
To shoot accurately with a 12 gauge or pump, you need to overcome the recoil & then re-aim rather than quick scatter shoot like with the ar15. Unless you're in a small confined area, then yeah, you could just blast away with a pump or pump sg for affect (yuck). Still gonna take longer, I stand by 5+ times more on most cases.

PS: was also marksman in the navy, with the 45, & proficient on the m16, but never shot the ar15......... Or did I?

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #48)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 12:14 AM

49. We all know you're an expert at the cheap shot, at least.

.. 'assault rifle' or 'assault weapon' is a term that's developed over the years to differentiate between traditional rifles and the more aesthetically disturbing 'rambo' style assault rifles with higher capacity clips & which are more used by the military in war.
.. what's a better short word descriptive term than 'assault rifle'? what, you would rather 'high bullet capacity high muzzle velocity rifles with flash suppressors compensators nightsights capable of more terrible internal injury, than traditional rifles'?
.. OK, maybe 'Rambo Rifle' would be better, but you get my drift. It's the modern contemporary terminology to offset traditional rifles from more lethally effective ones.


How about "tactical"? Or is that not pejorative enough for you? Not that you've refuted my point or anything, but nice of you to try distract from your failure.



Uh huh; nice attempt at ad hominem, but you've even got me lmfao. Do you have any point or points to make, or are you just gonna blither down the old mill stream?
.. and why should 'tactical' be pejorative, other than weird logic? or are you just trying to impress those who'd be impressed by gun pictures?


My point was that "assault weapon" is a pejorative term, but "tactical" isn't. This seems to have wandered over your head somewhat, hence the character assassination you flail about with.


From what you wrote it was near impossible to ascertain you were comparing 'tactical' with 'assault rifle' since you didn't make the comparison:


Clear enough? Or should I write it backwards on your forehead with a Sharpie?




10 rounds in 8 seconds. .308 Winchester. Maybe you just need a better recoil pad. Of course, if the recoil from a skeet load is throwing you off, then your issue might be unfixable.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #49)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 12:51 AM

50. tactical rifle on a silver platter

krispos: Clear enough? Or should I write it backwards on your forehead with a Sharpie?

.. you interjected your 'tactical' remark out of context, with no basis for me to read your 'mind' as to what you were alluding to.

what krispos is driving at:
(I wrote): what's a better short word descriptive term {for sophisticated highly lethal rifles} than 'assault rifle'? .. OK, maybe 'Rambo Rifle' would be better

couple posts later, with no clue to what I'd written, krispos: How about "tactical"? Or is that not pejorative enough for you

me, uncertain what he's talking about: why should 'tactical' be pejorative, other than weird logic?

krispos: My point was that "assault weapon" is a pejorative term, but "tactical" isn't. This seems to have wandered over your head somewhat, hence the character assassination you flail about with.

I see now; so you contend that a 'tactical rifle' label could supplant 'assault rifle' in terminology, since it's not as pejorative as 'assault rifle', which emanates bad.
That's irrelevant, immaterial to what I originally wrote, you toss out a red herring, you blow smoke.
The term 'assault rifle' is what exists de facto as a descriptive term to differentiate between traditional rifles & the more sophisticated killing machines with hi-cap clips which serve no useful purpose in communities.
That you divert attention to labeling them 'tactical rifles' is beside the point I was making & irrelevant, wayne laconman & the nra would have your head on a silver platter as well.

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #50)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 01:09 AM

51. You don't have to read my mind.

You have to read my posts, though. Scrolling up helps. I have a little wheel on my mouse for such purposes, but PgUp and PgDn also works nicely.

And it is relevant, because you specifically asked for "a better short word descriptive term".


It's interesting you've fallen exactly into the mentality the public-relations specialists hoped for... you continually use "assault weapon" and "assault rifle" interchangeably, don't know or care that the term "assault weapon" also applies to certain kinds of shotguns and pistols, and state with authority that they are rambo-gun killing machines that need to be kept away from people.

Words have power, and the people that created and spread the talking-point term "assault weapon" found a doozy. Like "tax burden" and "tax penalty" and "job creator".

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #50)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 01:30 AM

54. I think you missed the point

Assault weapon has a specific meaning. Assault weapon does not. A recent IL bill defined a lever action rifle as a "assault weapon" and California defined target pistols like the Walther GSP as "assault weapons". It seems to me that Krispos was looking for a more accurate way do define non traditional looking rifles and carbines.
My favorites include, depending on my mood:
tactical rifles
modern sporting rifles
pretend military rifle
AR plastic shit
mall ninja special (i reserve that term for "pistols" like the TEC-9)

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #46)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:47 AM

68. Iverglas, is that you?

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 09:31 AM

39. Viable insulation from an unlikely ban/confiscate scheme

 

Bud do I really think banning AR-15's and same would change things much... not really.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 01:17 AM

53. Not tactical but much fun

 

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=3-450269&mfg=taurus&mdlno=Thunderbolt+Pump+Action+Rifle

It shoots the 45LC round and I like the +P ammo in it. That makes it hit like a heavy load in a 44mag.

I've taken a couple big pigs with it. No problem at all. They hit like a freight train.

Fully loaded it carries 14 rounds. If 14 335 grain hollow point bullets running out at 1300FPS don't stop someone then I'm in big trouble.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/20rds-45-long-colt-corbon-hunter-335gr-p-hard-cast-ammo

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 01:39 AM

55. The only solution is Mutually Assured Destruction.

 

Hell, it worked for the Cold War. If we just encourage an arms race with all our neighbors, not only will we all be safe behind our stockpiles of assault rifles and ammo, we will give the economy a big boost by insuring full employment in the weapons manufacturing industry.

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Response to Speck Tater (Reply #55)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 01:48 AM

56. problem is,

too many are buying European guns like Glock. Besides, the good people in the war zones couldn't afford a legal gun even if they could get one legally.

BTW, if you are serious about the assault rifle, the real ones, are you going to pay the transference tax and registration? If so, make mine a Styer AUG.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #56)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 02:13 AM

57. I'm talking full on Mutual Assured Destruction.

 

Land mines in my front yard, razor wire on my electrified fences, motion-activated robot anti-tank guns, and a 10 megaton nuke in my basement. And by God I'll get a good night's sleep knowing I'm safe!

More weapons for everybody! It's the only solution!

Can't bring a knife to a gun fight.
Can't bring a revolver to a fully-auto fight.
Can't bring a fully-auto to an armored assault vehicle fight.
Can't bring an armored assault vehicle to a thermonuclear war.

Don't you see, the only solution is more weapons, Bigger weapons, more people with weapons, arm the teachers, arm the paper boy, arm the pizza deliver boy, arm grandma and grandpa,... And why stop there? Arm the frikin' dogs and cats!

Either that, or I can do like I've done for 67 years and have the trust and courage to walk out my front door unarmed and unharmed. I've got nothing to be afraid of so I'll leave the arms race to the paranoid crazies! They're welcome to it. I want no part of their psychotic world.

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Response to Speck Tater (Reply #57)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 02:27 AM

58. dude, you can do what ever works for you

when I was a kid back in Mayberry, guns were unloaded and locked. Didn't even have to lock the front door. My cop brothers went and gave Otis a ride from the bar.

Now in Florida. Guns are in a safe. Door locked, even in the sticks (or what passes for sticks) everybody knows I don't have any diamonds or drugs.

Going with probability still works for me, but will adapt that changes.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #58)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 02:32 AM

59. I live in rural Oregon.

 

A couple years ago I went to my niece's wedding in Los Angeles. I was gone almost two weeks. I left my front door unlocked. When I came home everything was just exactly like I left it.

When I put my trust in people I'm almost never disappointed. And if somebody shoots me, I guess I'll be dead. But at least I didn't live my life in fear, and that's more than any gun nut can say.

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Response to Speck Tater (Reply #59)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 02:47 AM

60. people own guns for various reasons

I grew up in Wyoming where everybody has guns. The state Democratic Party platform calls it a civil right. Everyone I know still keeps the guns unloaded secured when not using them. Open carry was always legal, but never done. Don't know any who conceal carry after liberalization. OK, I knew a few women who carried illegally before then, but they had crazy asshole exs. I wouldn't call that paranoid.

I think you have us mistaken for the casual gun owner, watches too much TV news, thinks his gated community is going to be invaded, buys a pistol but never learns how to use it. It sits in the sock drawer for 40 years.

There is a difference being afraid and prepared. Although something is improbable, but still possible. Wrong place wrong time can happen to anyone, but rarely does. Some call it living in fear, some call it realistic. I do what works for me and I don't judge those who decide otherwise either way. I carry while hiking the wilderness back home, Wyoming. Beyond that, I don't push public policy or change personal habits on rare black swan events. You may think I'm being brave and civilized, I know a cop that thinks you and I are out of our minds and should apply for CCW now. I disagree with you both.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #60)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 01:21 PM

64. "There is a difference being afraid and prepared."

 

"Although something is improbable, but still possible."

I agree. But there are a few things I'm never going to do. Among them are:

1. Keep a gun in my house.
2. Build a meteor-proof shield over my roof.
3. Wear lightening-proof clothing whenever I go outside.
4. Sweep my house for CIA bugs every night when I get home.
5. ... well, you get the idea.

It's a quality of life issue. I am not going to let my life be all about preparing for scary things that will probably never happen.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 08:02 AM

61. I think pump-shotguns will get the most attention. No way are they banning pump shotties.

 

The pump shotgun is 130+ years old... I don't see any gun controllers successfully demonizing a 130+ year old style of gun with any sort of "common sense" gun ban effort. Not only that, but shotguns (esp. pump action) are the bread and butter of hunting land game, hunting waterfowl, and home defense. It's is the quintessential style of gun and purpose of use that gun controllers say they AREN'T trying to take away.

So why will the shotgun go tactical rather than the lever action, in my opinion? Power. Figure that the firing rate for a lever/pump rifle is the same as that of a lever/pump shotgun except you fire more projectiles per round with the shotty. In fact of all the guns, even assault weapons, they are easily the most devastating firearms inside of about 100ft. A common mundane Remington 870 pump shotgun can launch FIFTY 9.1mm projectiles over 1300 feet per second in under 4 seconds (given an average shooter). A fully automatic UZI submachinegun only fires about FORTY 9mm bullets at 1200 feet per second in that same 4 second time frame.

Here's some CURRENT examples of what already exists in the shotgun world. A number of these shotguns hold 10-20 rounds and some are even semiautomatic. The last one is actually FULL automatic. Just imagine what would exist if everything but pump/lever guns were banned.






http://www.vincelewis.net/aa12.html <<---- Read this short description... unbelievable.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:11 PM

69. seems the Brits have been doing it for years

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 08:40 PM

70. The antigunners will come after these too.

 

People need to acknowledge their goal is a complete ban of private gun ownership. Some antigunners will pretend to moderate and say "oh we just want a few limits." But what they mean is "we are eating this elephant one bite at a time."

The gun industry will adapt. Consumers will adapt. But the antigunners NEVER stop. Their goal has been and always will be a complete ban. IMO any antgunner that says that is not their ultimate goal is a liar.

ALL antigun measures should be resisted. It's a battle in which there can be only one winner.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:26 PM

71. Dear Mr. -pos45

I have a business proposition to propose to you.

I hope you have capital.....

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Response to Callisto32 (Reply #71)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 05:29 PM

72. I have ideas

I have no capital or business management skills, though.


Hey, start it up and hire me!

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