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Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:45 PM

 

Could Concealed Carry Permit holders be our version of the Israeli Civil Guard?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Guard_%28Israel%29

The Civil Guard (Hebrew: משמר אזרחי, Mishmar Ezrahi), abbreviated in Hebrew as Mash'az (משא"ז is a volunteer organization of Israeli citizens which assists in daily police work. It is a subdivision of the Israel Police.

As of today, the Civil Guard is a division in the "Police and Community" branch of the Israel Police. The Civil Guard is managed and supported by the police which provide weapons, equipment, training and police officers who command local Civil Guard bases (each community has one or more Civil Guard bases). Although the Civil Guard is operated by the police, its manpower consists mainly of civilian volunteers. Members are trained to provide the initial response to a security situation until the police arrive. Most Civil Guard volunteers are armed with M1 Carbines and personal handguns (if the member has a civilian gun license). The Civil Guard is composed mainly of volunteers who do patrols (in car or on foot). They go through basic training and have limited police powers while on duty. They may apprehend a suspected person or make an arrest if necessary. Equipment generally consists of a fluorescent yellow police vest, flashlight, radio, firearm, handcuffs and whatever else may be required particular to the assignment. Equipment is returned at the end of the shift. Most volunteers manage about one shift a week (2 to 4+ hours), while the minimum requirement is 12 hours a month.


What if our CCW training was like this? Could these volunteers then guard our schools and other gun-free zones?

32 replies, 2145 views

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Arrow 32 replies Author Time Post
Reply Could Concealed Carry Permit holders be our version of the Israeli Civil Guard? (Original post)
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 OP
leveymg Dec 2012 #1
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #2
leveymg Dec 2012 #5
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #8
leveymg Dec 2012 #14
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #15
leveymg Dec 2012 #19
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #20
leveymg Dec 2012 #22
beevul Dec 2012 #21
leveymg Dec 2012 #23
beevul Dec 2012 #24
jody Dec 2012 #3
sarisataka Dec 2012 #4
Kennah Dec 2012 #28
bowens43 Dec 2012 #6
sarisataka Dec 2012 #7
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #9
jeepnstein Dec 2012 #10
jpak Dec 2012 #11
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #17
msongs Dec 2012 #12
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #18
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #27
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #30
gejohnston Dec 2012 #13
rrneck Dec 2012 #16
fightthegoodfightnow Dec 2012 #25
MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #26
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #29
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #31
PavePusher Dec 2012 #32

Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:53 PM

1. You sound like you could be George Zimmerman.

Last edited Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:04 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to leveymg (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:54 PM

2. Why?

 

In what way did George Zimmerman receive any police training?

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Response to leveymg (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:03 PM

5. Zimmer treated his carry in the same way - as if he were part of some armed militia protecting the

settlement against hoodies and Skittles wielding terrorists.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:37 PM

8. But Zimmerman had none of the proposed training. n/t

 

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:11 PM

14. He had a carry, and even if he was trained, he's a racist vigilante who's too dangerous for a gun

Sorry, I don't want an army of armed Zimmermen.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:47 PM

15. Is the implication here that anyone with a CCW permit is a racist vigilante? nt

 

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:07 PM

19. The implication is that this armed militia of yours will attract many of them. No thanks.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:11 PM

20. No different than what's already on the police force.

 

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:02 PM

22. G-d help us.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:41 PM

21. George Zimmer is not who you were thinking of.



I guarantee it.

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Response to beevul (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:03 PM

23. Was in a bit of a rush. You know what I meant.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:27 PM

24. I know.

Last edited Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:25 PM - Edit history (1)

I just couldn't resist though lol.

(on edit: For those who may not remember it or be aware, George Zimmer was the president of the Mens Warehouse, and his tag line was...



My failed attempt at humor I guess lol.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:00 PM

3. Easier to include them in a state's unorganized militia because state and federal law already exists

 

for that. See State Guard Association of the United States (SGAUS) which is the more organized part of the unorganized militia.

That would also help Congress finally fulfill its obligation under Article I, Section 8, Clauses 15 & 16.

"{The Congress shall have Power} To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
{The Congress shall have Power} To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"

The Militia is already defined by law as
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia areó
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

In one state the militia includes all people17-64 years of age.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:00 PM

4. It is sad to think we need such a system

but if we a taking a no BS, honest look at our country today, what we have is not good enough. The knee jerk reactions of guns are never good and if only everyone was armed are equally false.

Our current CCW hodgepodge is in no way up to the standard this would require. We would need to have such carriers train to a high standard, with recurring qualification tests.

It could be a way for both sides to get what they want. Use current standards to purchase 'old school' and 'traditional hunting firearms. We can decide if their would be a 'personal' ccw at this level. Those who wish to invest the time and effort could become a modern civil militia. By submitting to registration, training and qualification standards, these people would be allowed purchase of 'modern' weapons. CCW in all locations would be allowed. We can also debate if 'militia members' would have open access to purchase Title II and III weaponry.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:43 PM

28. There is a vast world of difference between citizens carrying and professions guarding a school

Here in Washington state, we have no training requirement for CCW. However, I've been through about a 100 or more hours of advanced firearms training, some of it might make you shit bricks, and I daresay the average cop hasn't gone through some of the training I've done. Even though most don't go through much training, if any, the number of times that a private citizen carrying fucks up is exceedingly rare. There are some who go off the end, but no amount of training can prevent a break from reality.

Arming kids, well, I hope I really don't have to address why that's a bad idea.

Arming teachers, to that I will offer up a quote I read on Liberal Gun Club. Again, this is not me, so I am not the excellent cook.

When I'm cooking, I'm an excellent cook. When I'm driving, I'm an excellent driver. When I'm cooking and driving at the same time, I'm doing a piss-poor job of both, and endangering people at the same time.

There are jobs that require attention, focus, and vigilance: teaching and security BOTH fall into that category, and expecting one person to fulfill both roles for a classroom is unrealistic and accepting of the fact that they will be marginal at best in either duty.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:09 PM

6. no.

the last thing we need is armed gun nuts stalking the halls our schools.....

how hard is it to understand that the solution to this problem is to get rid of the fucking guns?

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Response to bowens43 (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:15 PM

7. If we accept the number of guns

at 300 million and remove an average of 1000/day the US will be gun free in 821 years, 11 months and one day... approximately

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Response to bowens43 (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:40 PM

9. The guns aren't going away. The President just got done saying so THIS MORNING.

 

The guns aren't going away. The President just got done saying so this very morning.

I'm tired of people who blow a gasket at the thought of a CCW permit holder with a gun stopping a crime, but have no problem with a police officer with a gun stopping a crime.

Maybe we can get what we both want and raise the qualifications for CCW permits so that there is little difference between a CCW permit holder and a police officer.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:48 PM

10. Not really.

If we incorporated the same training standards as the Civil Guard and they were under the direct control of the local Sheriff, it might work. I can see lots of Sheriffs not wanting the headache. Don't look for the FOP to jump for joy at the suggestion, either.

Concealed Carry training doesn't have much to do with police work. It could be done but the training would have to be much more comprehensive than just 8 or so hours of classroom work.

I do agree with your idea on one level. If citizens were given a bit more skin in the game than just sitting around waiting for "the professionals" to come do their bidding they'd be singing a whole different tune. I suspect most Americans wouldn't have the stomach for it. I dream of the days when "They ought to do something..." is replaced with "We ought to do something..."

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:12 PM

11. Just say no to untrained. unaccountable Gun Nut Militia

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:52 PM

17. Perhaps you missed the part where this is a part of the police forces?

 

Aren't you part of the crowd that is always yammering for a more "well-regulated" militia?

Well, here's your chance to have one. It's a volunteer part of the police force, and trained, and issued weapons.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:27 PM

12. then we will all be hostages to the gun nuts nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:53 PM

18. Anyone can volunteer.

 

It sounds like anyone can volunteer, get trained, and issued a weapon.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:40 PM

27. Like Zimmerman? No thanks.

How about we spend those resources on better applicant screening, training, and support network for cops?

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:49 AM

30. Like you.

 

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:37 PM

13. I would rather pay an extra couple of buck in taxes to

fund a dedicated security force just like the VA, or the local Social Security office. Besides, we need the jobs. Let them join the teachers and cops unions.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:52 PM

16. I'd rather hire more cops. ntt

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:31 PM

26. NO. No official humoring of CC fantasists.

 

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:03 PM

29. Oh great Mall Cop with a license to kill.

Fabulous.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:55 AM

31. It appears that there is more training than just a security guard.

 

Folks keep clamoring for a more "well regulated" militia. Here's your chance.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:01 PM

32. Since that's not what they actually want, you'll continue to receive only hyperbolic derision.

 

But you knew that...

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