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Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:51 PM

Brady Campaign Sues Armslist In Killer's Online Gun Purchase

Posted: 12/12/2012 11:20 am EST | Updated: 12/12/2012 11:20 am EST

A jilted ex-boyfriend pumped a dozen bullets into the body of a museum curator last year. The shooter got a life sentence. The seller who illegally dealt him a .40-caliber handgun was sentenced to one year.

But that's not enough, said the family of the murdered woman and gun control advocates. They want to punish Armslist.com, a sort of Craigslist marketplace of firearm classified ads, claiming it enabled the seller and buyer to conduct the fated deal.

Ex-boyfriend Dmitry Smirnov killed Jitka Vesel in a Chicago suburb on April 13, 2011, after traveling to Washington state to buy a gun from Benedict Ladera, whom he'd found via Armslist.com. The deal was illegal because Washington outlaws gun sales to out-of-state residents. Smirnov, a 20-year-old Russian immigrant living in Canada, paid $200 extra so Ladera would look the other way.

"Armslist breached duty by designing its website to encourage its users to circumvent existing gun laws," said the wrongful death lawsuit Vesel's brother Alex Vesely and the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence planned to file Wednesday in Chicago. "Users of Armslist.com could easily evade gun laws with a simple 'click of the mouse.' Armslist ... like Smirnov and the gun seller, must now be held accountable."

More: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/12/brady-campaign-armslist-gun-purchase_n_2279465.html


Do you think we need to better regulate the online gun bazaar?

35 replies, 2724 views

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Arrow 35 replies Author Time Post
Reply Brady Campaign Sues Armslist In Killer's Online Gun Purchase (Original post)
ellisonz Dec 2012 OP
PDJane Dec 2012 #1
xchrom Dec 2012 #2
rrneck Dec 2012 #3
gejohnston Dec 2012 #4
Clames Dec 2012 #5
ellisonz Dec 2012 #6
Clames Dec 2012 #7
ellisonz Dec 2012 #8
gejohnston Dec 2012 #11
ellisonz Dec 2012 #13
gejohnston Dec 2012 #16
krispos42 Dec 2012 #19
ellisonz Dec 2012 #27
krispos42 Dec 2012 #33
Clames Dec 2012 #23
ellisonz Dec 2012 #24
Clames Dec 2012 #25
ellisonz Dec 2012 #26
Clames Dec 2012 #30
ellisonz Dec 2012 #35
Clames Dec 2012 #15
gejohnston Dec 2012 #9
ellisonz Dec 2012 #10
gejohnston Dec 2012 #12
ellisonz Dec 2012 #14
gejohnston Dec 2012 #17
krispos42 Dec 2012 #18
Starboard Tack Dec 2012 #22
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #20
oneshooter Dec 2012 #21
aquart Dec 2012 #29
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #31
oneshooter Dec 2012 #32
Marengo Dec 2012 #34
aquart Dec 2012 #28

Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:55 PM

1. Yes. Of course.

Is it going to be done? No. Americans love their guns too much.

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:56 PM

2. Du rec. Nt

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:18 PM

3. It looks like he easily evaded gun laws

by traveling a thousand miles across an international border to bribe someone into breaking the law.

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:38 PM

4. he violated federal law

do you current federal regulations? How would you regulate them different than newspaper ads? One thing in the article got wrong
Ex-boyfriend Dmitry Smirnov killed Jitka Vesel in a Chicago suburb on April 13, 2011, after traveling to Washington state to buy a gun from Benedict Ladera, whom he'd found via Armslist.com. The deal was illegal because Washington outlaws gun sales to out-of-state residents. Smirnov, a 20-year-old Russian immigrant living in Canada, paid $200 extra so Ladera would look the other way.

The deal violated the Gun Control Act of 1968, current federal gun laws. Although any violation of GCA, can get up up to ten years it rarely actually happens. I doubt Brady has a valid case against Armslist, but the seller should have received a stiffer sentence.
www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:40 PM

5. Those shills at the Brady Campaign are going to lose.

 

Armslist better frame the check they get from them when all is said and done. It won't be worth trying to deposit...

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Response to Clames (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:41 PM

6. So you support the online arms bazaar?

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:48 PM

7. I support people engaging in legal intrastate trade.

 

If they use a website to do so then so be it. I purchased a pistol from an online retailer, still had to undergo a Federal background check when I picked it up from the FFL doing the transfer. But let's be serious here, you don't have a clue about the laws and regulations involved anyway. You even thought it was legal to sell guns on Craigslist until you were corrected a few times....

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Response to Clames (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:57 PM

8. Except that's not what's happening...

You even thought it was legal to sell guns on Craigslist until you were corrected a few times....


Dude. Craigslist prohibits gun listings, but it's not illegal in many states to make such an arrangement. Craigslist relies on members to alert such posts.

12/14/2011 @ 5:12PM |7,274 views
Undercover Study Finds It's Easy to Buy Illegal Guns on Craigslist
Jeff Bercovici, Forbes Staff

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/12/14/undercover-study-finds-its-easy-to-buy-illegal-guns-on-craigslist/


You owe me an apology. And I'd be shocked if you could produce a citation from me ever make such an assertion.

You do understand that we have a patchwork of gun control laws in this nation, don't you?

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:04 PM

11. if the gun crosses state lines,

federal law applies. Oh, Bloomburg hired some PIs, yeah I saw the videos. Somehow, the name James O'Keefe came to mind.
Now if this is a major problem, why isn't the ATF doing these stings instead of telling Bloomburg to STFU?
Yes we do have a patchwork, but you do realize that we have federal laws that stitch the patches together don't you? You really don't, do you?

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:13 PM

13. The ATF is dramatically underfunded.

ATF's oversight limited in face of gun lobby
By Sari Horwitz and James V. Grimaldi
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, October 26, 2010; 12:12 AM

Concerns about government regulation of gun ownership have limited the resources available to the ATF, led to strict regulatory restrictions and left the agency without leadership, according to interviews with dozens of former and current ATF officials and examination of thousands of pages of internal documents. The agency still has about the same number of agents it had nearly four decades ago: 2,500. The firearms bureau inspects only a fraction of the nation's 60,000 retail gun dealers, taking as much as eight years between visits to stores. By law, the ATF cannot require dealers to conduct a physical inventory to determine whether any guns have been lost or stolen.
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The ATF is supposed to regulate the gun industry, but many within the bureau say it is the industry that dominates the agency. Unlike the FBI, the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Secret Service or the U.S. Marshals, the ATF must contend with a powerful lobby that watches its every move and fights its attempts to gain resources and regulatory power.

This year's appropriations bill for several key law enforcement agencies reveals the limits imposed by Congress on the ATF. For the FBI, there are 19 lines of congressional direction. For the DEA, there are 10. For the ATF, there are 87 lines, including the requirement to keep the gun-tracing database hidden from the public.

"We're a political football," said James Cavanaugh, who recently retired as special agent in charge of the ATF's Nashville office after a 30-year career.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/25/AR2010102505823.html?sub=AR.


I'm sure you'll accede to this fact rather than change the subject again, no?

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:42 PM

16. I never changed the subject

They had the same problem since they were the "red headed stepchild" of the IRS. Their EEO record and piss poor management doesn't help them either.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:56 PM

19. It is, and that's wrong.

The ATF need more agents and more money. They've had the same number of agents since I was born!

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:36 AM

27. Thank You!

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:14 AM

33. Effective enforcement of effective laws.

It's a critical component of civilized societies, I think.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:50 PM

23. Underfunded?

 

FY12 budget was $1.17B not including non-phased adjustments which usually total tens of millions more each year. The ATF has plenty of money, they should probably learn to spend it better...

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Response to Clames (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:01 AM

24. To regulate how many guns and gun owners?

You are completely full of shit. Do the math.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:28 AM

25. You are speaking completely for and of yourself.

 

Full of it really. You are 100% clueless how the ATF works, is organized, and functions in relation to Federal, State, and local LE agencies. Par for the course for you, speaking of shit you don't have a fucking clue about.

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Response to Clames (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:36 AM

26. I'm sure you've gone through the ATF budget line for line, right?

Again. You're full of shit. Even krispos42, the host of the Gungeon, and a gunner through and through thinks you're being absurd.

It is, and that's wrong.

The ATF need more agents and more money. They've had the same number of agents since I was born!



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Response to ellisonz (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:46 AM

30. Still speaking for yourself.

 

Until you can figure out how to figure out how to use Google and find the annual budget appropriations for the ATF you are just talking out of your ass. Go troll somewhere else.




Have a nice night...

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Response to Clames (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:22 PM

35. "Go troll somewhere else."



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Response to ellisonz (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:40 PM

15. I owe you nothing. L-O-L

 

You've harped on and on about online gun sales yet you still haven't seemed to clue in on the fact that most laws (including gun laws) in this country basically rely on the old honor system. Every damned worthless gun law you stump for falls in that category too. I understand the laws that govern firearms in ways you can't comprehend due to your willing ignorance on the technical issues. In fact you have even stated you are proud to not understand such aspects. Very comical. Interesting to see if you stick around here in the coming weeks. Seems you only crawl out when tragedy strikes, hurl a few insults, then retreat back to whatever group you normally post in.




Have a nice day.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:59 PM

9. how would be regulate it compared

to the newspaper? Brady doesn't have a valid case. They are using the same theory as a SLAPP suit, knowingly file a merit-less lawsuit to make the opposite waste time and money dealing with it. The ends never justify the means, even if I did believe in their cause.
If they sue the seller, great. He violated federal law. Armslist violated no law and is not responsible.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:01 PM

10. "Armslist violated no law and is not responsible."

A court is going to decide that now.

Shit, some these websites are almost RICO status IMHO.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:06 PM

12. If they violated a federal gun law

the ATF would be speaking to them. Shit, I could make a RICO case out of MAIG and their over abundance of felons. How would the website enforce federal law?

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:14 PM

14. "Shit, I could make a RICO case out of MAIG and their over abundance of felons."

Governor Romney, please proceed.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:53 PM

18. There is no bazaar to support.

It's already against the law, and I don't have a problem with that.

But you can't get guns mailed to your house unless you're a federal gun dealer.

It's a classified ad service, not Amazon.com.

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Response to Clames (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:31 PM

22. Talking of shills

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:23 PM

20. The press release on this is a sham and the suit has no basis in law

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:31 PM

21. I purchase a lot of my firearms online.

In fact I just sent a Postal MO to pay for my latest purchase. A 45 caliber rifle that will be delivered directly to my house.
And you have a problem with that?
























Oh, thats right. You have me on ignore because you can't answer simple questions.

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:38 AM

29. Yes. Huge problem. Hope you're on a watch list.

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Response to aquart (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:25 AM

31. Did you like watch lists when Bush and Cheney were running them?

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Response to aquart (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:00 AM

32. No, I am not on any watch list. Your answer tells me what

you know of Federal Law. The rifle is a handbuilt flintlock rifle. Can be shipped directly to your home, no laws broken.

You see, your answer is typical of those who do not know the law, but still yell about it.

Watch List! How very repub of you. I am sure that you supported it when it was first made law.

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Response to aquart (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:39 AM

34. My, my...we do love our fascist tactics when they suit our beliefs, don't we?

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:37 AM

28. Good.

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