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Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:09 PM

You guys better figure out how to support gun control or it will be done without your input

Last edited Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:11 PM - Edit history (1)

if not by this generation, by the ones coming up.

114 replies, 6734 views

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Reply You guys better figure out how to support gun control or it will be done without your input (Original post)
CreekDog Dec 2012 OP
godai Dec 2012 #1
ileus Dec 2012 #8
truebluegreen Dec 2012 #80
BanTheGOP Dec 2012 #2
Glassunion Dec 2012 #4
CreekDog Dec 2012 #7
PavePusher Dec 2012 #11
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #64
Glassunion Dec 2012 #15
Trunk Monkey Dec 2012 #16
CokeMachine Dec 2012 #21
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #25
Glassunion Dec 2012 #29
discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2012 #72
LiberalLovinLug Dec 2012 #89
Glassunion Dec 2012 #90
gejohnston Dec 2012 #91
LiberalLovinLug Dec 2012 #100
gejohnston Dec 2012 #102
Tumbulu Dec 2012 #110
discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2012 #92
LiberalLovinLug Dec 2012 #101
oneshooter Dec 2012 #6
Marinedem Dec 2012 #9
trouble.smith Dec 2012 #18
Callisto32 Dec 2012 #23
rl6214 Dec 2012 #27
Jenoch Dec 2012 #32
Spryguy Dec 2012 #61
YllwFvr Dec 2012 #78
Spryguy Dec 2012 #93
rDigital Dec 2012 #97
discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2012 #67
Starboard Tack Dec 2012 #103
PM Martin Dec 2012 #3
Wellstone ruled Dec 2012 #5
oneshooter Dec 2012 #10
PavePusher Dec 2012 #12
pop topcan Dec 2012 #26
PavePusher Dec 2012 #39
Promethean Dec 2012 #48
pop topcan Dec 2012 #55
Starboard Tack Dec 2012 #106
Clames Dec 2012 #108
beevul Dec 2012 #98
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #22
pop topcan Dec 2012 #46
rrneck Dec 2012 #13
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #37
rrneck Dec 2012 #40
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #41
gejohnston Dec 2012 #42
Kaleva Dec 2012 #62
rrneck Dec 2012 #63
Kaleva Dec 2012 #70
rrneck Dec 2012 #76
Kaleva Dec 2012 #79
rrneck Dec 2012 #82
Kaleva Dec 2012 #85
rrneck Dec 2012 #86
jeepnstein Dec 2012 #14
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #19
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #24
trouble.smith Dec 2012 #17
Clames Dec 2012 #20
CreekDog Dec 2012 #31
oneshooter Dec 2012 #33
CreekDog Dec 2012 #35
Clames Dec 2012 #65
CreekDog Dec 2012 #66
Clames Dec 2012 #68
CreekDog Dec 2012 #71
Clames Dec 2012 #73
CreekDog Dec 2012 #74
Clames Dec 2012 #75
CreekDog Dec 2012 #77
Clames Dec 2012 #84
CreekDog Dec 2012 #95
Clames Dec 2012 #96
oneshooter Dec 2012 #69
Clames Dec 2012 #34
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #28
jbgood1977 Dec 2012 #30
CreekDog Dec 2012 #38
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #44
CreekDog Dec 2012 #45
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #47
CreekDog Dec 2012 #49
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #52
pop topcan Dec 2012 #50
CreekDog Dec 2012 #53
pop topcan Dec 2012 #59
CreekDog Dec 2012 #60
apocalypsehow Dec 2012 #36
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #43
CreekDog Dec 2012 #51
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #54
CreekDog Dec 2012 #56
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #81
discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2012 #83
tortoise1956 Dec 2012 #88
pop topcan Dec 2012 #57
Starboard Tack Dec 2012 #107
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #114
gejohnston Dec 2012 #58
CreekDog Dec 2012 #94
gejohnston Dec 2012 #99
X_Digger Dec 2012 #87
OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #104
CreekDog Dec 2012 #105
Clames Dec 2012 #109
Tumbulu Dec 2012 #111
krispos42 Dec 2012 #112
graham4anything Dec 2012 #113

Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:10 PM

1. Today is a tipping point. n/t

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Response to godai (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:25 PM

8. You could be right.

It's a sad day in America.

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Response to godai (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:53 PM

80. I hope that is true, FINALLY! n/t

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:12 PM

2. The GOP is 100% responsible for this atrocity, and the 2nd Amendment must be eliminated. Period.

 

NO aspect of gun ownership should even be considered. EVERY gun, other than that carried by law enforcement, should be melted, no compensation given to rabid republicans. Period. NO MORE DEBATE. NO MORE QUESTIONS. JUST DO IT!!

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:22 PM

4. Why does law enforcement still get to have guns?

If gun ownership is illegal for everybody, the police will not need them at all.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:24 PM

7. please don't derail a thread about control into ridiculous right wing scare tactics

gun control is not to take everyone's guns away.

gun control does not require all the police to give up their guns.

gun control does not have to be perfect to make a meaningful difference.

guns do not make us safer. the big lie is that having a gun keeps you safe from other guns.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:25 PM

11. Did you actually read post #2? n/t

 

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:50 PM

64. How dare you interrupt a screed with facts...

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:33 PM

15. I asked an honest question to an honest post.

Post #2: "The GOP is 100% responsible for this atrocity, and the 2nd Amendment must be eliminated. Period.
NO aspect of gun ownership should even be considered. EVERY gun, other than that carried by law enforcement, should be melted, no compensation given to rabid republicans. Period. NO MORE DEBATE. NO MORE QUESTIONS. JUST DO IT!!

To which I asked: "Why does law enforcement still get to have guns? If gun ownership is illegal for everybody, the police will not need them at all."

So please explain what exactly I'm trying to derail? I'd really like to know.


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Response to CreekDog (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:35 PM

16. Did you not read the post union was responding to? NT

 

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:08 PM

21. Tell it to banthegop

 

or did you miss that post??

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:10 PM

25. What a fucking stupid post.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:23 PM

29. Care to elaborate?

It is a sincere question. If guns are banned, why do the police still get to have them? There would be no need.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:15 PM

72. Because deep down...

...they all know (maybe subconsciously) that "control" is a myth.

We don't have speed control or driving uninsured control. (People do it all the time; now and then a few get caught.)
We don't fraud control. (Enron, Martha Stewart, Bernie Madoff...)
We don't have drug control (although we've banned a few and that's working out really well ).

We don't have any laws that do, in fact, control anything. We have laws that make decent criteria for justifying convictions in court. The only way control is ever going to be near 100% is if we have someone from law enforcement follow each of the 80,000,000 gun owners around 24/7.

Control is a myth but try explaining that to someone who's pro-control.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:30 PM

89. At the risk of falling for a joke post I'll indulge you

First off ALL guns are never banned in gun controlled countries, so you are putting out a straw man argument which is why your post is silly.

So I'll assume you really mean a ban equivalent to countries such as Canada. Hunting rifles are NOT banned. And collectors can collect other types of guns but must be registered and have a properly inspected secure storage for them. Hand guns and multiple shot type assault weapons ARE banned. And the reason why we do not want our police to be stripped of their own hand guns is that there will still be criminals able to get guns, mostly smuggled up from the gun-nut State below us. (Ah Ha! you say but read on...) But because it is difficult to get a gun, it limits the access to only the hardened gang members but is difficult to acquire for the petty criminal who also cannot steal handguns from homes or businesses either BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE TO STEAL. Also the ban greatly reduces the accidental shootings in the home as well as murders in crimes of passion when a person is not thinking clearly and does not have a weapon handy that can do such lethal damage.

I'd rather live in a neighbourhood like here in Canada where I walk my streets knowing that there is a 99% (of course never 100%) chance that no one around me is carrying a gun, other than the police. I never understood why someone would feel safer if instead EVERYONE was carrying a gun. Yikes.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #89)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:43 PM

90. No. No joke it was an honest question to an honest post.

The poster that I has posed the question to said the following:
"The GOP is 100% responsible for this atrocity, and the 2nd Amendment must be eliminated. Period. NO aspect of gun ownership should even be considered. EVERY gun, other than that carried by law enforcement, should be melted, no compensation given to rabid republicans. Period. NO MORE DEBATE. NO MORE QUESTIONS. JUST DO IT!!"

To which, I wanted to know that if no aspect of gun ownership is to be considered, why law enforcement would need guns?

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #89)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:46 PM

91. I don't know about your provence but

handguns are not banned, and neither are "assault weapons" under federal law. Some handguns are prohibited, but most require restricted PALs. Ruger makes a revolver specifically for the Canadian market, and not sold in the US. Some "assault weapons" are nonrestricted and were imported into Canada, but not the US. The rifle used on the attempted murder of Quebec's premier is an example. Another is the IMI Tabor.
While I like Canada, I like where I grew up in Wyoming, where we all had guns, nobody carried, but we left our doors unlocked at night.
In fact, I bought a couple of pistol magazines and owner's manual for an out of production pistol from a Canadian supplier.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/index-eng.htm

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #91)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:51 PM

100. I live in British Columbia

But its the same in every province. Handguns are essentially banned. Handguns and Semi-autos fall under "restricted". You can apply for a special permit if you want to strictly use it at a gun range, but you have to jump through a lot of hoops and be thoroughly vetted. Here's the process if you want a handgun, which must not be under 470 mm in length:


-Be at least 18 years old.

-Pass both the Canadian Firearms Safety Course and the Canadian Restricted Firearms Safety Course.

-Apply for a Possession and Acquisition Licence, which includes a valid reason for wanting a handgun. The two main reasons are being a member of a target shoot club or for collection purposes. (Under rare circumstances occupational need, such as by a trapper in the north, is valid, or in even rarer circumstances, for protection of life.)

-A criminal and background check is conducted.

-If approved, the licence is $80 and valid for five years.

-Pass a screening by the provincial chief firearms officer, which includes whether there are any public safety concerns with the applicant getting the handgun.

-To actually buy, trade or receive a gift of a handgun requires a final approval by the Chief Firearms Officer, who may require proof the gun is being acquired for an approved purpose.

-Submit for an Authorization to Transport, which allows the person to take the handgun from the place of purchase to his/her residence.

Source: Canadian Firearms Centre

So anyone that is willing to go through all that probably won't be some young lunatic.


And as far as semi-automatics? I admit I thought they were all banned. But researching showed that its not the case. Hunting style semi-automatics are restricted, but not banned as long as they haven't been altered and are long enough. But that means a whole lot of hoops there as well.

The main point is that it is near impossible to obtain a handgun or a semi-automatic. If you have one, you have to re-apply for a permit every 5 years and even when you just want to transport it. You are subject to surprise inspections to make sure that they are locked away securely. There is still no comparison with the American system.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #100)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:18 PM

102. last I looked

rifles like the Tabor were unrestricted. From what I understand, it doesn't take an act of Parliament to change classifications so I'm sure they change. I went to the RCMP website, and they were updating the list as of yesterday. I'm sure it isn't that easy to get a legal pistol, but I doubt it would that hard to get an illegal one if you hanged out with that sort of crowd. As for the latest young lunatic, he stole them from his mother.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #100)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:01 PM

110. This sounds very reasonable and I hope we enact rules like this here

in the sates. It is WAY overdue.

I know plenty of people who own rifles and guns (I am in the rural west and we use them for snakes and predators) and all would have no problem following these rules.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #89)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:48 PM

92. You seem like a nice guy

and you made a civil reply which is always appreciated.

I, personally, consider the RKBA to be a right and a ban to be wrong. I would also say that a ban would be impossible. At this time the estimate for US firearm ownership is about 80,000,000 people (26%) own about 300,000,000 guns.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #92)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:00 PM

101. Thanks

I also don't think an outright ban would even be possible. There is a difference between "controlling" and "banning".

The argument that gun control won't stop EVERY incident like this is also a dumb argument IMO. If it will stop even one more its worth it. The statistic that is forever hidden is: how many MORE shootings like this would have happened in countries that have stricter gun control laws during the last few decades. We'll never know, so unfortunately it cannot be used as an argument.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:23 PM

6. And what have you done to bring this about?

Other than being a poster on a website.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:25 PM

9. uh.

 

100%. Damn it's really nice of you to let the murdering POS off the hook like that. I'm sure his mother will be glad to know he had nothing to do with this crime!

Also, how do you plan on circumventing the constitution in regards to your plan? Not talking about the 2nd amendment either. I'm talking about the 5th. It's funny. The deeper you dig, you always seem to find out that the gun controllers aren't so much against gun rights, as they are rights in general.

I'll keep my guns, thanks a lot!

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:41 PM

18. yeah, get on MSNBC and shout that out loud and watch gun sales double over the next four years.

 

good luck.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:55 PM

23. YEAH.

FUCK THINKING!

FUCK REASON!

FUCK RATIONALITY1!!

JUST DO SOMETHING!!!


That always works.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:18 PM

27. As someone posted down thread

 

What a stupid fucking post...


Fix the crazy, that's the problem.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:41 PM

32. Uhm...Harry Reid is pro RKBA.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:46 PM

61. AGREE! (Mostly)

 

Totally agree on ending the disgusting 2A. DOWN WITH THE 2A! DOWN WITH RIGHT WING FASCIST MURDERERS!

However- I would also point out I don't see a need to arm law enforcement. We pay the pigs very well to do their job, I see no reason for them to have firearms as a regular course of business. Maybe a few at the station in areas where smuggling is rampanat or they have probably cause on a search warrant that guns will be present, but that is about it. The guns is why they abuse our rights so often!

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Response to Spryguy (Reply #61)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:37 PM

78. im glad you know my job so well

Last edited Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:23 PM - Edit history (1)

When I clear a building thats being burglarized id like to know what I use to defend myself from an unknown number of criminals.

In addition, I like to think im paid very poorly. Im paid about half of the average for this area. The average cop makes less than your basic laborer or factory worker.

Full time cop, no benefits, no contract, less than 30, 000 a year and I buy all my own equipment and uniforms.
And this dept pays quite a bit better than my last.
Vest 750
Gun 650
Belt with most of my gear 800
Uniform 300
Badges 300
Thats off the top of my head out of my own pocket for under 30k/yr. Typical for this area. Same for every dept ive been with.

If I hit 65k or so with benefits maybe I would buy that we are paid well to do the job.
So not only have you no idea what I do it seems but you also take issue with my equipment and pay. We dont have shotguns, rifles, tactical armor, spike strips or even tasers.
Take away what little we DO have to work with.
Hey at least I have a night stick. Had to buy my own though.

I guess im glad I love my job.

Edit to add:
We dont have guns to fight those with guns. We use a one plus rule.
Make a fist, we use a baton or mace or taser.
Draw a knife we use a gun.
Pull a gun we call in the cavalry and have ten guns or bigger guns.
Never meet force with equal force. Police dont play fair.

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Response to YllwFvr (Reply #78)


Response to Spryguy (Reply #61)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:58 AM

97. Pigs? Really? nt

 

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:57 PM

67. I'd see a doctor about that knee...

...if I were you.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:06 PM

103. You are way over the top and I suspect you may not be sincere.

Either that or you are very young and extremely naive. I have seen a few of your posts in the California Group and you seem obsessed, to put it mildly, with the GOP. Far more than any rational person. And you YELL A LOT!
We don't ban political parties in this country, or in California. That is what fascists do.
I suggest you take a deep breath and maybe a chill pill, because you are adding nothing to the debate and nobody is taking you seriously.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:17 PM

3. Not with the teakooks running the congress.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:22 PM

5. O.K.,today is a tipping point,

but,watch your so called informed news outlets and here it comes,SOMEONE IN THE ROOM SHOULD HAVE HAD A GUN TO PROTECT THE STUDENTS AND TEACHERS. Enough with all the shit,time to blow up this right to carry and letting people willy nilly purchasing any damn weapon they want. Get real folks!!!!


Bring it on you NRA asses!!!!

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Response to Wellstone ruled (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:25 PM

10. Please answer the question posted at #6.

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Response to Wellstone ruled (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:27 PM

12. Do you think this would have been worse if someone had tried to stop the shooter....

 

by using effective tools?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:15 PM

26. I heard one talking head say "well, we certainly can't arm TEACHERS"...to which I ask "why not?"

 

We arm policemen, sheriffs and bank guards...are teachers somehow morally inferior that they can't be trusted with guns (assuming adequate training)? I know if I still had kids in school, I'd be FAR more secure feeling if a few of the teachers had the ability to project some defensive force against a crazy armed man. I noticed it took men WITH guns to stop the attacker...would it have somehow been 'worse' if someone already in place at the school had been equipped to stop him earlier? That's the part I don't get...

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:33 PM

39. Exactly. n/t

 

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:25 PM

48. Ever hear the phrase two wrongs don't make a right?

You are basically arguing against something considered basic wisdom. The solution to tools of death being used to bring death to our children isn't to put more tools of death in the presence of our children.

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Response to Promethean (Reply #48)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:41 PM

55. Sure, I've heard it, it's bullshit. To validate your thesis you would have to disarm the cops.

 

Is that really what you want to do? Virtually any object can be a "tool of death". Would you seriously prefer NO defensive capability in place at a school you've sent your children to? That sounds completely insane to me.

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #55)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:16 PM

106. The cops don't need to be constantly armed.

They should have ready access to all tools necessary in any particular situation. That doesn't include wearing a semi-automatic handgun wherever they go.
There are times when it is prudent to be armed with a gun. Those times are rare, even for the average cop.
Of course, they should keep their guns as long as others do the same.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #106)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:33 PM

108. Yeah, you just take a survey of actual cops around this country.

 

See how hard they laugh.

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Response to Promethean (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:17 AM

98. Basic wisdom to whom?

To people that dislike guns.

Only in the minds of many of them, is it wiser to pick a fight with 50 plus million people about the guns they own, than it is to harden potential soft targets which seem to be the places these nutjobs seem very attracted to.

Its not OUR fault YOUR gun control failed.

Its the fault of those that believe that a sign stops anyone from doing anything.



Remember, every time you see someone speeding, illegally parked, or any number of things that are posted - that posted sign stops no one that isn't inclined to obey it - and while you might be able to give them a ticket, if that had been someone with a gun, knife, bomb, bat, sword, or simple malicious intent, writing a ticket after the fact is too late, and your sign did nothing.

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Response to Wellstone ruled (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:13 PM

22. "Blow up?" Fine choice of words. Pick a fight somewhere else.

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Response to Wellstone ruled (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:24 PM

46. Would it have upset you if someone (like a teacher with training and a gun) had taken out the guy

 

so he couldn't go on killing kids? I don't understand your outrage...

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:31 PM

13. I'm still waiting to hear a plan that will work.

Seriously. I joined DU because of an article on Alternet about that guy in Texas that shot those burglars. Four years later I have yet to hear a workable idea, much less a fresh one.

All I've heard from the braintrust of DU is partisan finger pointing, nurturing to the point of oppression and sanctimonious outrage.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:17 PM

37. +1

comparing guns to dishwashers is just about enough.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #37)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:37 PM

40. I did my part.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=186651

And I actually own two dishwashers. One on the end of each arm.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #40)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:47 PM

41. yep, that one failed the purity test, for sure.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #40)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:53 PM

42. one reason I never go to meta if I can help it.

Most of the conversation is less than ummmmmmmmm enlightened.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:07 PM

62. It's impossible to be able to predict the outcome of any plan with 100% accuracy.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #62)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:47 PM

63. Surely it's not too much to ask that

a plan at least sound like it might work. It seems about all we get around here are partisan hosannas.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #63)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:07 PM

70. A problem though is that some will dismiss any idea that challenges their worldview.

I would not care if their was a complete ban on semi-autos. Some would argue that then only outlaws would have semi-autos. To that I would say then one needs to be an expert on bolt action, lever action, pump action and revolvers. I for one would not want to face off against an expert with a 6 shot revolver as he'd most likely kill me even if I was armed with a semi-auto pistol with 10+ round mags.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #70)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:33 PM

76. I really don't think we can regulate firearm design any more than it already is.

It's just too easy to innovate around it either technologically or tactically. Considering the political capital it would take to make that happen, it ain't worth it. Tweaking ammunition capacity and cyclic rate is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. They're more civilized in Europe because they have decent health care and labor rights, not because they ban guns.

Libertarian ideology isn't a proposal for the future, it's apologetics for what has already happened. We're all libertarians, many of just don't realize it. This country is that far gone. That's why people are going nuts and shooting up public spaces. It's not the guns. We're kicking the shit out of each other all the time and we don't even know it.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #76)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:48 PM

79. Much of the U.S. is about as civilized as Europe when it comes to gun crime.

Vermont has about the most liberal gun laws on the books but no one points to Vermont as an example of the need for greater gun control.

But then it is also true that many of these mass shooting in this country are done with semi-automatics. It's the gun of choice for those hell bent on death and destruction.

The NFA was enacted because of the public outcry over criminals using the Thompson sub-machine gun.The NFA probably didn't decrease the number of murders criminals and the mob committed but it did make extremely rare the occurance of bad guys machine gunning down other bad guys and innocent bystanders.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #79)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:01 PM

82. Wiggle your right index finger as fast as you can.

That is the rate of fire of a semiauto firearm. Semi or select fire is just a distinction without a difference. Hell, a revolver is semi auto - one bullet per trigger pull. We just can't regulate firearm design any more than it already is because it is already trying to parse such fine distinctions they become meaningless.

Here's a really cruel and callous question that will probably get this post hidden: how many children in a locked room could you kill with a baseball bat? What a horrific thought! And yet, in reality a club is just as effective as a Glock for terrorizing people. The 1934 NFA was probably passed as much because of the expense of feeding a full auto firearm as for the need for their regulation. Nobody needed them anyway. But millions and millions of people seem to think they need a semi auto pistol. And a few of them actually do.

This is generally a safe country to live in. The gun debate is better suited for hypothetical discussions and studies of peoples attitudes in culture and politics than actual application. Take an idea like ban semi auto guns out into the real world and it will fall flat as a pancake. Guaranteed.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #82)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:44 PM

85. There's no guarantee.

Public opinion can shift. Sometimes it can takes years or decades and other times it can happen quite quickly. There would have been no New Deal had it not been for the Great Depression. The majority of Americans opposed entry into WWII until Pearl Harbor. People complained a great deal about delays at airports until 9/11.

Nothing of substance may come of this or there may be great changes. I'm not going to lay money down on either. My guess is that like so many of the other mass shootings, calls for greater gun control will forgotten about but I can't say for sure that will happen.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #85)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:50 PM

86. That's true.

I don't expect anything to happen legislatively, but you never know. Stick this tragedy into the political meat grinder and who knows what will come out.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:32 PM

14. What, exactly, happened?

I know there has been a loss of innocent life. What I want to know is the facts of the shooting before I start calling for all sorts of policy changes. Get back with me when we know who, what, where, when, and how.

Of course the people who have no shame in dipping their hands in the blood of innocent victims will be all over the place today. So let the emotional outburst begin!

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Response to jeepnstein (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:42 PM

19. They seem to equate hating fellow DUers with compassion.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:08 PM

24. No doubt. I got called a "baby-killer" in another thread

Last edited Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:33 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014332756#post237

coalition_unwilling (13,563 posts)
237. Here you go, baby-killer:


I'm sure some of these types of people stoutly denounced anti-Muslim hysteria after 9/11.
It wasn't the proper kind of bigotry, dontcha know?

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:39 PM

17. The more you squeeze, the more it will slip through your fingers.

 

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:05 PM

20. CreekDog is up the creek without his paddle again.

 

All talk as usual...

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Response to Clames (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:34 PM

31. you're pretty new and I've never interacted with you --so your statement is unfounded

unless you aren't new and I have interacted with you.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:49 PM

33. Will you answer the question posted? #6

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #33)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:12 PM

35. No I will not. I'm too familiar with this Gun group's tactics of trying to divert threads

divert them into minutiae so that we can avoid the main topic.

it is done more expertly in this forum than in any other.

it is done to make gun control sound like a caricature of what is actually being proposed.

it is done to make gun statistics sound unreliable, based on cherry picking data.

so, no, i don't play by your rules in this forum because this is a forum where gun control and gun crime statistics as topics are treated as an opportunity to divert the topic in ways that utilize some of the most refined and persistent propaganda tactics in use in our society today.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #35)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:54 PM

65. Then...bye.

 

Both sides use the exact same tactics. So yes you will play by the rules just like everyone else who posts in this group...

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Response to Clames (Reply #65)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:57 PM

66. no, i argue honestly

and get random crap thrown almost from the NRA argument text book.

no i don't play that game the way many members of this group play it.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #66)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:59 PM

68. Argue honestly?

 

Based on what? The shit you fling is more honest than the shit flung at you? Yep, your playing along just fine.

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Response to Clames (Reply #68)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:11 PM

71. is there a lie that you can document?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #71)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:20 PM

73. The OP and #35. n/t

 

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Response to Clames (Reply #73)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:28 PM

74. you have not documented them --also, they are not lies

fail.



oh, and bye.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #74)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:31 PM

75. Not documented?

 

They are their in plain sight until you edit them.




Good riddance...

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Response to Clames (Reply #75)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:36 PM

77. documenting a "lie" is not simply saying "you lie!"

have we interacted before?


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Response to CreekDog (Reply #77)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:32 PM

84. Thought you were leaving?

 

Oh, you are playing by the rules now...

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Response to Clames (Reply #84)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:11 AM

95. i will never do what you want me to do

i don't play by your rules or need to follow the illogic of your red herring arguments.

there is almost no support on DU for the types of arguments you make and the ones i make are widely supported here.

i do not need to play or argue on your terms, first they are false, second, they have no place here.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #95)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:52 AM

96. Repeating something doesn't make it true.

 

Remember that.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #66)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:01 PM

69. I don't play games. So if you are afraid to answer then say so.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:00 PM

34. No, one doesn't have to be around here long to have seen some of your posts about this subject...

 

...Meta comes to mind.


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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:23 PM

28. Universal Health Care System Immediately. Fund Mental Health. De-stigmatize depression.

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:34 PM - Edit history (1)

Get our Drug Addicts help and get our Schizophrenics diagnosed and treated. NOW!!!!!!

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:32 PM

30. Gun free zones = free fire zones. Gun control caused todays tragedy.

 

How about that school in Texas that has their teachers and staff armed if they choose. How far do you think this shooter would have gotten there?

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Response to jbgood1977 (Reply #30)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:17 PM

38. Texas has some of the highest rates of crime in the US

all those guns don't seem to be making Texas safer.

no thank you.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:21 PM

44. Connecticut has some of the strictest laws in the country.

All those laws don't seem to be keeping lunatics from killing people, now does it?


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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #44)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:22 PM

45. actually, crime is lower there

overall.

thanks for proving my point.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #45)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:25 PM

47. Yeah, 27 dead people proves your point.

What. The. Fuck?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #47)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:27 PM

49. you need to stop panicking about the possibility of gun control

it's making you irrational.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #49)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:38 PM

52. It appears that you are projecting.

I'll wait until it passes.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #45)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:29 PM

50. Only a little lower. Maine with minimal gun laws is the lowest in the nation.

 

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:39 PM

53. 25 posts and you're misrepresenting statistics, against gun control, pro-fracking

whatever.

i've argued with you before, you have to be a little less obvious to make me want to do it again.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #53)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:45 PM

59. They aren't my statistics, they're from the US government

 

Take it up with them, and you can shove your little juvenile laughing turd

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #59)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:46 PM

60. using one state

anyway, i've argued with you on this before, so whatever. you don't get to have that argument with me again.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:15 PM

36. Yep. Rec. n/t.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:19 PM

43. Most already do support gun control.

We can start with strict enforcement of the laws we already have, and then work on keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill.

But that is not what you meant, now was it?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #43)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:30 PM

51. what would that fix? the gun was legal and the shooter wasn't diagnosed with anything

so, your solution is a big nothing.

if you got paid to post, did you know that you'd get a bonus for saying "better enforce *existing* laws" cause that's like a time-honored NRA talking point to encourage doing *NOTHING*.

a classic, if you will.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #51)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:40 PM

54. Paid to post? What the fuck?

How is one to have a rational conversation with someone unable to have one?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #54)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:43 PM

56. I didn't say you were paid to post

while the NRA surely pays some people to post, i imagine they only pay those who are good at it.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #56)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:55 PM

81. Like I thought. You are only interested in sophomoric jabs and hyperbole.

Good luck solving the problem. I'm sure this method will serve you well.


And make sure to have a really, really nice day too!

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #81)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:16 PM

83. That was thoughtful of you

and pleasant.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #81)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:57 PM

88. You're fighting a losing battle

Your opponent has lots of support here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=186935

By a 3-3 jury vote, it's all right to call us members of a death cult and a cancer.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #54)



Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #107)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:40 AM

114. The usual from you, more passive-aggressive bullshit.

Does doing this make you feel good about yourself?





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Response to CreekDog (Reply #51)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:43 PM

58. his purchase of them wasn't

assuming he bought them. If the stole them..........
I doubt he got them from home.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #58)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:07 AM

94. like usual, you are wrong, he didn't purchase them, they were his mom's

and they were legal.

try to keep up, especially when you are trying to base on argument on something you say which is verifiably wrong.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #94)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:42 AM

99. notice that was posted before that was reported

since he possessed them without his mother's knowledge permission, they were stolen. Please check out details like time stamps, they are there for a reason. It might keep you from making a fool out of yourself.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #51)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:51 PM

87. Does that bounty on that statement apply to the president, too?

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/239389-white-house-obama-focused-on-fighting-gun-crime-with-existing-law-

White House press secretary Jay Carney on Sunday said President Obama was committed to preventing gun crimes by relying on “existing law,” two days after a mass shooting in Colorado sparked renewed debate about gun control.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:59 PM

104. Not really, but thanks for playing.

 

Gun controllers will have to earn every inch they gain... nothing will be ceded. First, I suggest stopping (hell, even just slowing) the juggernaut momentum of gun-rights victories/legislation before proclaiming anything about "tipping points" or making foreboding remarks - LOL.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #104)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:01 PM

105. you didn't read the post...i said if this generation doesn't do it the next one will

so why don't you deliver your NRA talking points to little children in Connecticut.

when they grow up, you will be dealing with rules they may want to become law.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #105)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:40 PM

109. Already teaching the next generation that it isn't guns or the NRA...

 

...or any singular thing that simple minds seem to cling to. Teaching them that guns, when properly respected and handled, are nothing in and of themselves and depend solely on the intent of the person handling them.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:04 PM

111. I think you have hit the nail on the head!

wither with them or without them, it is happening.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:21 AM

112. I'd like to have a good conversation on it

But it's difficult.

It's even more difficult to make people realize they are hideously vulnerable all the time, and they have to depend on the good nature and abilities of their fellow humans in society pretty much whenever they leave the house.


I went to Chuck-E-Cheese to let the kid play video games. I live less than a half hour from Newtown, and my kid's the same age as those poor victims, so I kind of wanted to just let him do something fun and thinking-free for a while.


Anyway, the CEC has a "no handguns" sign in the entryway next to the interior vestibule door, and I looked at it and thought "shit, what happened in Sandy Hook could happen right here, but worse!"

Crammed full of kids. One obvious exit. Open spaces. Even if some of the guests tried to hid under tables and benches, there are far too many kids and adults to hide them all. No cover for an awful lot of them. Although I guess those video game cabinets are pretty sturdy.

One person with a pistol and a few spare magazines (regardless of capacity) or a revolver with a few speedloaders could meet or exceed Sandy Hook in a couple of minutes.

I have to depend on the general good nature of humanity for that not to happen.


Same thing driving. I have to depend on other people piloting 2 tons or more of high-velocity steel down the highway to be predicable and capably driven. At any moment I can be smeared across the interstate because some fool spilled coffee on his or her lap or something equally stupid.


I should say "again", because it already happened to me once.



Fucking Volvo driver.




Anyway, people are freaking out about these kinds of events which are virtually impossible to stop because they're lone-wolf, spontaneous attacks on a random location full of people. There is no terrorist cell to break, no intelligence to gather, and no centralized location to guard.

But the mentality is "never again", and of course that's impossible to achieve. It seems to be the same sort of attitude after the 9/11 attacks when we just go totally crazy for security and spend a lot of money while not achieving very much.

Then as now, nobody considered the root causes of the attack. Nobody said "hey, let's get off of foreign oil and remove our troops and stop supporting oppressive dictators"... it was all armored doors and TSA agents and backscatter x-ray machines and 100mL or less of shampoo and billions of dollars spent.


But we choose to have shitty health care in this country, which means shitty mental-health care. So we have more unstable, mentally-ill people out there, undiagnosed or unmonitored, than we should.

And we choose to have counter-productive drug laws, right-wing economics, busted unions, and all the other things that make our population worse off than other nations as well.

So we have a constant drain on our society of violence triggered by greed and desperation and anger, topped off with nutjobs who think that shooting up a school or a mall is a great way to prove a point of some kind.

*sigh*

But the massive debate convulsing our country now is whether we should allow rifles with pistol grips to be sold.

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Response to CreekDog (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:43 AM

113. It already is happening. Their consent is not needed. Reframe the issue as terrorism

 

and do like Lincoln did in the movie Lincoln when it came to slavery.

What is the difference between 19 kids killed in Oklahoma City and 19 killed at the school?

Answer-nothing. 19 kids died.

Oklahoma City is considered home grown terrorism
as it should be

the same should apply to the gun.

and the NRA should have their assets frozen like they freeze other terror groups

You don't see millon dollar suits working for Al Queda lobbying in DC do you?

case closed.


terrorism meaning-to create terror.
We can't even go to the movies, a restuarant, a supermarket, send our kids to school
without being in terror.

case closed.

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