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Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:26 AM

Why "Chicago" is a Bad Gun-Rights Argument

I wish I had a Dollar for every time some pro-gun commenter used the argument that the gun violence in Chicago proves that gun control doesn't work. They say this as if it really makes sense. On pro-gun blogs they repeat it so often that they've actually begun to believe it.

Unlike some of our friends, Frail Liberty for example, I put a good deal of stock into the Google-search-engine method of determining statistics. Searching for news results on a particular subject, although not comprehensive by any means, is a good way of obtaining a rough idea of what's reaching the news. DGUs, for example, appear to be about 100 times less frequent than gun misuse. Allowing for the very reasonable argument that DGUs of the brandishing kind don't make the news, one can make the appropriate allowances and come up with a fairly accurate idea of what's what.

About Chicago, there's an interesting thing to be found in Google. Almost every single incident is gang or drug or criminal related. Weekends when a dozen people are killed and scores wounded, you can usually find not one case of lawful gun owners going bad. In other places where gun restrictions are less onerous, domestic violence by formerly lawful gun owners, work related shootings by formerly law abiding gun owners and other like incidents make up a major percentage of the gun crime. Not so in Chicago.

Of course Chicago has some hidden criminals like any place, but due to the strict gun control, they are far fewer and they make the news much less frequently.

This means that Chicago is a good example of gun control working as it should. In spite of the ridiculous claims of the pro-gun folks, we understand that criminals do not obey laws. The gang members and drug dealers in Chicago are no exception. They easily import all the guns they need from Indiana, Ohio and several other states with lax gun laws within driving distance. But among the non-criminal citizens of Chicago, there is an extremely safe and secure environment, thanks to its gun control restrictions and resultant limited gun availability.

What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
Cross posted on Mikeb302000

40 replies, 4405 views

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Arrow 40 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why "Chicago" is a Bad Gun-Rights Argument (Original post)
mikeb302000 Dec 2012 OP
BVictor1 Dec 2012 #1
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #10
graham4anything Dec 2012 #2
hack89 Dec 2012 #3
mikeb302000 Dec 2012 #32
hack89 Dec 2012 #36
pipoman Dec 2012 #4
Remmah2 Dec 2012 #6
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #11
pipoman Dec 2012 #21
rl6214 Dec 2012 #15
pipoman Dec 2012 #20
mikeb302000 Dec 2012 #33
pipoman Dec 2012 #35
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #5
rl6214 Dec 2012 #16
Oneka Dec 2012 #7
slackmaster Dec 2012 #8
Remmah2 Dec 2012 #9
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #12
sarisataka Dec 2012 #22
spin Dec 2012 #13
petronius Dec 2012 #14
Straw Man Dec 2012 #17
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #18
petronius Dec 2012 #24
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #25
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #28
DonP Dec 2012 #19
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #26
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #27
Oneka Dec 2012 #31
mikeb302000 Dec 2012 #34
gejohnston Dec 2012 #39
petronius Dec 2012 #40
rDigital Dec 2012 #23
trouble.smith Dec 2012 #29
guardian Dec 2012 #30
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #37
aikoaiko Dec 2012 #38

Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:15 AM

1. They're always trying to use Chicago in a negative format.

 

It either those Chicago thugs or those strict Chicago gun laws or all those shootings of black kids in Chicago.
They can never seem to decide on what point to settle on.

The shooting in Chicago are mostly gang shootings and it's over drugs or turf. It's not racial or 'stand your ground' violence.

Chicago at one time did have a handgun ban, but that was overturned by the SC0TUS a few years back.

They just like using Chicago because we do have a history and because President Obama is from Chicago.

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Response to BVictor1 (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 11:06 AM

10. A correction to your post...

Regarding gun-control policy, most pro-2A folks merely point out how gun prohibition (some 40yrs of it in that city) cannot be linked to decreased crime and killing. Obviously.

Of course, there is always the Bronx cheer buzzed toward Chi's corruptuon and gun-control hypocrisy of its elites. Try perusing threads about Florida!

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:58 AM

2. k&r +a zillion trillion billion

 

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 06:45 AM

3. So you agree the most violent places are those with gang problems

cities like DC, Philly, Atlanta, Chicago, etc

No shit - what do you think we have been saying all along. The problem is violent criminals. Violent criminals that ignore gun control laws.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 04:55 AM

32. Yes, I've always agreed with that, but

in lax gun states the gang and drug violence is matched with the actions of hidden criminals who own guns legally. Chicago doesn't seem to have this.

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Response to mikeb302000 (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 09:17 AM

36. And of course you have crime stats that show this?

or are you extrapolating a few isolated incidents to highlight the "danger" of hidden criminals?

A hidden criminal to you is simply a legal gun owner, right?

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 09:12 AM

4. "I put a good deal of stock into the Google-search-engine method of determining statistics."

LOL...not a statistics major, eh? LOL This nonsensical approach makes any of your claims laughable..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 09:51 AM

6. Professor Google.

 

A regular Doctor of Googleship.

A Rhodekill scholar.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 11:09 AM

11. LOL! So much for the dignity of scholarship.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:31 PM

21. Holy Cow!

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Response to pipoman (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:04 PM

15. What else can he do from Italy?

 

That's all he's got is his computer to tell him what's really going on in the world.

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:28 PM

20. Yet he regularly discounts actual stats

from actual statisticians at CDC, FBI, etc. A laugh a minute I tell ya..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 04:57 AM

33. When "actual stats" say there are millions of DGUs a year,

and a Google search produces only one for every 100 incidents of gun misuse, yes I discount those "actual stats."

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Response to mikeb302000 (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 08:51 AM

35. Because you and your "Google-search-engine method of determining statistics"

are so much more reliable than the CDC, FBI, DOJS, BATFE and the several other actual statisticians who have published their results. ROFL Don't like the obvious truth, look for a method of developing stats which is ludicrous, then claim accuracy... Sometimes the shit people try to convince themselves of is really quite bizarre...truth is stranger than fiction, and all that... LOL

I thought you were talking about "DGUs" not "incidents of gun misuse". So...if you believe that the incidents of DGUs is exaggerated by, say, the LA Times (whose historical position has always been gun prohibition). Then you must also believe that the stats for "incidents of gun misuse" are exaggerated by the same sources as the DGU numbers you are so defiant in believing, eh?

Google is an amazing tool good for many things, actual scientist/statistician replacement wouldn't be one of those things by anyone's claim but the most obtuse among us....yeah, truth and fiction...LOL

Oh, and do you really think that some guy whose home is being broken into, who answers the door with a gun and the breaker flees would make even the smallest town newspapers? Further I live in a rural area and the town newspaper doesn't even come up on Google if I am searching using a known incident and the town name...so even if it made the news (which the vast number do not) it wouldn't appear in your silly "Google-search-engine method of determining statistics".

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 09:48 AM

5. Take a look at El Paso, TX

It is a major American city, on the border with Mexico, it has more guns than people, yet has one of the lowest crime rates in America.

In other places where gun restrictions are less onerous, domestic violence by formerly lawful gun owners, work related shootings by formerly law abiding gun owners and other like incidents make up a major percentage of the gun crime

You said, "Criminology is a well studied field. It is already well established that legal gun owners rarely use their guns in an illegal manner. It is extremely rare for a legal gun owner to commit murder as a first crime. Rare does not mean "never"; it sometimes happens, but rarely so."

DGUs are rare in Chicago because the legal ownership of handguns is still essentially forbidden in Chicago. It is kind of hard to use a gun for self-defense if you don't have one.

El Paso is much safer than Chicago, and has lots and lots of guns.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:06 PM

16. "Take a look at El Paso, TX"

 

I live in El Paso, despite the violence across the border in Juarez, there are very few gun crimes here.

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 10:26 AM

7. Denying

Firearms to law abiding citizens, knowing full well that , criminals will still have guns:


Your synopsis: Chicago is a good example of gun control working as it should.

My synopsis:
Chicago is a good example of gun control working as it was intended all along.

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 10:28 AM

8. Automatic Rec for logic so twisted that it boggles the mind

 

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 10:33 AM

9. Chicago, Politicians and Gun Control

 

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 11:13 AM

12. Gun control "working as it should?" For thugs. And elites.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:41 PM

22. Exactly

The gang bangers and drug dealers are being shot only by their peers; they don't have to worry about some victim getting all rude and fighting back. If someone did that, well lock them up for being a danger to society. The criminal has other charges so can deal away the gun charge and be out after a short refresher course at Gangster U.

If you happen to be a politician who forgets his gun in his luggage because he was just at work (still can't figure that out. I don't keep my gun in my suit case) we can give him a stern warning.

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 11:41 AM

13. The gangs in Chicago deal drugs and can easily smuggle firearms ...

for their own needs and could easily provide smuggled firearms to anyone who wants one if there was a market.

Prohibition rarely works. If you disagree please explain how our War on Drugs has been an outstanding success.

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 12:20 PM

14. Google-perception aside, does Chicago actually have a significantly lower rate

of domestic and workplace violence (up to and including homicide) than comparable urban populations? Those statistics would be interesting to see...

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Response to petronius (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:31 PM

17. Good question.

Google-perception aside, does Chicago actually have a significantly lower rate

of domestic and workplace violence (up to and including homicide) than comparable urban populations? Those statistics would be interesting to see...

I doubt that Mikey will provide an answer, though. Google? Puh-leeze. Where I come from, any research that cites Google as its only source fails automatically.

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Response to petronius (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:26 PM

18. Here they are:

For Chicago, according to the Chicago Police Dept, murder rate is 16.0 per 100,000, Robbery rate 527.3, aggrevated assault rate 510.4

National rates, FBI: murder 4.8, robbery 119.1 aggrevated assault 252.3

Texas: murder 5.0, robbery 130.6, Aggravated assault 284.4. Texas has lots and lots of guns, shall-issue concealed carry, no AWB, and is only slightly higher than the national average. That increase is likely caused by our long border with Mexico and the problems with illegals and drug smuggling.

http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeStatebyState.cfm

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 06:52 PM

24. I think we need something more specific than that, to address the OP's hypothesis

He's not claiming that gun control has reduced Chicago's overall violent crime rate - that ship has clearly sailed - it seems like he's suggesting that Chicago gun control has reduced rates of a specific sub-set of homicides. Specifically, he's ignoring gang-, drug-, and other-crime-related murders, and just focusing on domestic and workplace violence, so-called crimes of passion committed by people without past records or other involvement in criminal behavior.

It sounds as though he thinks that these crimes are committed (semi-)spontaneously by people who would be likely to abide by Chicago's gun laws. Thus, if these crimes are occurring at a lower rate, it (hypothetically) must be because the city's gun control is working - some people who might have acted out violently didn't do so, because they obeyed the law and didn't have guns. It's not actually an illogical hypothesis, although I suspect it will be a factual and statistical fail (and google-science-guesswork is a complete joke, of course).

Obviously, there are a bunch of huge assumptions here: the first being that these specific crimes really are less common in Chicago, and the second being that, if the first is true, it must be because of gun laws. The second assumption can't even be dealt with until we have numbers to go with the first assumption...

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Response to petronius (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 08:16 PM

25. Thanks for the clarification. That can be dealt with.

He is extremely ignorant of criminology, which is a well studied field. He is subscribing to a myth of the happily married couple who never have an argument suddenly having a violent murderous one. Domestic violence murders almost always have predictors, mainly lots of violent fights in an escalating pattern. Usually the killer has already been involved with the police over violence issues and is already forbidden to have a gun.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 01:31 AM

28. Compare Chicago to Houston, the nearest city in size; it's not a bit flattering to Chi-town:

From the FBI, via the Houston Chronicle, rates are per 100,000. Chicago is higher in all
categories save aggravated assault:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/111518996/FBI-crime-29p-c

Murder 9, Robbery 376, Aggravated assault 554

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Response to petronius (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:25 PM

19. Well, I don't know the view from a cafe in Rome, but living here is another matter

Murders in the city are approaching record highs this year.

Every Monday the Tribune gives us the "box scores" of how many shot and how many dead.

We have a higher death rate than Afghanistan, the Sun Times noted last month.

We are 38% ahead of last year in murders.

The police are now attending all gang member's funerals with locked and loaded M4 carbines since a drive by killed 2 rival gang bangers.

There have been several shooting on North Michigan Avenue, our main downtown shopping district, so the violence is not restricted to a few neighborhoods.

They just passed a $25 tax on every firearm sold in Cook County with another proposed 5 cents tax per round on ammo sold.

The city is still dragging its feet and fighting the McDonald decision, so it's almost impossible to keep a gun in your home.

Yeah, I can see why some guy living 9000 miles away would be stupid enough to think gun control is working really well here.

Perhaps Mike B and his like minded friends would like to take a field trip to Englewood, Chatham, Pilsen, or any of the other great gun free zones we have.

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Response to DonP (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 01:09 AM

26. I bookmarked this thread for many reasons, your post included.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 01:12 AM

27. Another was *this* example of industrial-strength stupidity from the OP:


This means that Chicago is a good example of gun control working as it should.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #27)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 11:53 AM

31. Might want to include

Thus nugget, from our fact challenged friend , in one of his earlier OP's,

This may be true as far as it goes, but it doesn't help us in our analysis.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/117289411

Inconvenient facts, can just be swept away into nothingness, if you subscribe to the gunrights restrictionist, point of view.

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Response to petronius (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 04:59 AM

34. Go ashead

show us Chicago compared to New Orleans for domestic murders by formerly law abiding gun owners. I dare ya.

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Response to mikeb302000 (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 11:08 AM

39. just shootings or

all domestic murders?

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Response to mikeb302000 (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 11:43 AM

40. Data like that is essential to your argument, which is why I asked you the question

If you read the rest of this thread you'd have noticed that I actually took your idea seriously (albeit with a huge dose of skepticism), but I'm not going to do your research for you. If you really want to discuss this here, then provide a real foundation.

'Daring' other people to produce the info doesn't cut it; if you won't do your own homework, you've got nothing...

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 06:33 PM

23. This thread is a logic fail of epic proportions. nt

 

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 02:21 AM

29. yep, gun control is working perfectly in Chicago-for the criminals and the government.

 

perfect. Coming soon to your state and city if Mikeb and his kind have their way. Thankfully they won't though so don't be too alarmed.

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 10:22 AM

30. So where is a good example of a gun control argument?

 

California? They have strict gun laws. No gun crime there right?
New York? They have strict gun laws. No gun crime there right?
Maryland? They have strict gun laws. No gun crime there right?
Illinois? Oh wait you say we have to ignore that....


Let's go international

South Africa? They have strict gun laws. No gun crime there right?
Australia? They have strict gun laws. No gun crime there right?
Mexico? They have strict gun laws. No gun crime there right?
Columbia? They have strict gun laws. No gun crime there right?
Russia? They have strict gun laws. No gun crime there right?
Brazil? They have strict gun laws. No gun crime there right?

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 10:37 AM

37. Boy this takes the cake.

 

About Chicago, there's an interesting thing to be found in Google. Almost every single incident is gang or drug or criminal related. Weekends when a dozen people are killed and scores wounded, you can usually find not one case of lawful gun owners going bad.

This means that Chicago is a good example of gun control working as it should.

OK, so criminals do as they wish while law-abiding people obey the law and this is cited as an example of gun control working as it should?

WHAT?

Are you telling me that the point of gun control is not about restricting criminals but is about restricting law-abiding people?

Color me not surprised.

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Response to mikeb302000 (Original post)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 10:50 AM

38. Google search engine stats?


Omg, that is too funny. Please keep making posts where the thrust of your argument regarding real world events is based on google stats.

Please, I beg you because it's ludacris.

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