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Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:25 PM

Florida Teen Jordan Davis One of at Least 32 Youth Killed by Concealed Carry Killers

The deadly shooting of Jordan Davis, 17, by Michael Dunn, 45, at a Florida gas station last week in a dispute over loud music is unfortunately only one example of at least 29 incidents since May 2007 where victims under the age of 18 lost their lives in a non-self defense shooting as the result of a private citizen legally allowed to carry a concealed, loaded handgun in public.

In total, since May 2007, at least 499 victims in 32 states have died in incidents not ruled self-defense involving private citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns, according to the November update of the Violence Policy Center's (VPC) Concealed Carry Killers online resource. At least 14 of the victims were law enforcement officers. Twenty-three of the incidents were mass shootings, resulting in the deaths of 103 victims.

The child victims of concealed carry killers range in age from 17, like Jordan Davis, to only a year old.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/florida-teen-jordan-davis_b_2218957.html

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Reply Florida Teen Jordan Davis One of at Least 32 Youth Killed by Concealed Carry Killers (Original post)
SecularMotion Dec 2012 OP
rrneck Dec 2012 #1
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #20
gejohnston Dec 2012 #2
krispos42 Dec 2012 #3
Loudly Dec 2012 #5
krispos42 Dec 2012 #8
Loudly Dec 2012 #11
Jenoch Dec 2012 #14
Loudly Dec 2012 #15
Jenoch Dec 2012 #16
Loudly Dec 2012 #17
trouble.smith Dec 2012 #18
krispos42 Dec 2012 #19
Clames Dec 2012 #9
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #4
Berserker Dec 2012 #6
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #7
ileus Dec 2012 #10
trouble.smith Dec 2012 #12
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #13

Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:42 PM

1. The last I heard

there were eight million people with CHL's.

And five hundred of them screwed up.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:22 PM

20. You're using math and logic to counter an appeal to emotion. I like that....

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:45 PM

2. last I looked

many of them were listed as still undetermined. While they have not been ruled as self defense, they have not been ruled as manslaughter/murder either.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:56 PM

3. "legally allowed to carry concealed handguns"

Doesn't mean they were carrying concealed in public, now does it? It just means that the shooter had a CCW permit.

They were also legally allowed to operate a motor vehicle.




This seems to be an ongoing problem of understanding. If a person has a CCW permit, and guns down his or her spouse in a fit of jealous rage after finding said spouse in bed with the neighbor, then the fact that the shooter was legally permitted to carry in public is not relevent to the conversation.

Yet, it can also be accurately but misleadingly reported that a CCW permitee shot and killed his/her spouse in a fit of rage.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:16 PM

5. Precisely relevant having a handy gun with which to act out.

That's not just access, that's super convenient access with the imprimatur of legitimacy.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:55 PM

8. except...

...that if the murders were premeditated and/or done inside his or her home, then the CCW permit is not relevant.

The only circumstances that CCW permitees can be aided and abbetted by their concealed handguns is if a) the murder is spontaneous AND b) the murder takes place outside his or her home.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:13 PM

11. That's a pretty big blind spot you have.

If someone's a CCW holder who is wearing outside the home, you can't admit that it's perfectly natural for them to keep their gun more accessible to themself INSIDE the home?

Hanging by the front door? On the junk mail table? Still on their person?

The likelier presence of a gun at place inside the home where cool off time is abbreviated and impulse control is impaired are the direct result of a CCW permit.

For the simple and self-evident reason that the CCW holder now has permission to go in and out of the house with it.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:12 PM

14. I would like to see some statistics that show how many

people with a CCW permit actually exercise that right. I know several people with the permit that don't actually carry a concealed weapon, or at least do so rarely. They also keep their guns in a safe at home. I know several retired cops who don't need CCW permits to carry in public. They too almost never do and keep their guns locked up at home. I would bet the vast majority of CCW holders almost never actually conceal carry in public. All of that makes most of your points moot.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:40 PM

15. If what you say is true, than concealed carry itself is moot.

But then I think the 2nd Amendment is moot and has no place in today's American society.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:08 AM

16. Wow. What do you suggest

be done with the 2nd Amendment?

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:21 AM

17. I suggest that it be correctly interpreted and not dressed up as something it's not.

Right now, it is a political indulgence of a mere personal fetish.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:48 AM

18. you're dressing up your opinion as something it's not-accurate.

 

But when you're a supreme court justice, maybe we'll give that opinion a little more credence.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:08 AM

19. No, I can't

Because of things like... children.


If you don't have children, then there's nothing keeping you from keeping a handgun by the front door, back door, bedside, etc., regardless of whether you have a permit.


If you have children, then you have to keep your gun secured when you're not carrying, again, regardless of whether you have a permit.


And let's remember, CCW permittees have squeaky-clean criminal records, which directly counters your assumption that they have problems with impulse control.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:43 PM

9. MAIG doesn't distinguish between honest CCW holders and those who are just carrying concealed...

 

...without a permit. Just like VPC and the Brady Campaign they seek to paint ALL CCW's holders as criminals or potential criminals. Why does that sound familiar around here?

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:24 PM

6. OMG knives, GUNS and now this

 

Bow and arrow-type' attack leaves 3 dead in Casper, Wyo., including 2 in college classroom, officials say.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/30/15574250-bow-and-arrow-type-attack-leaves-3-dead-in-casper-wyo-including-2-in-college-classroom-officials-say?lite
The Anti's are gonna be busy banning all this shit.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:27 PM

7. "29 incidents since May 2007" works out to -6 per year. Huge rate. nt

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:15 PM

10. Time to ban incidents.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:22 PM

12. How many innocent non-CCW holders were gunned down by criminals in the same time period?

 

That's what I thought. Next.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:22 PM

13. Are you serious?

"in a non-self defense shooting as the result of a private citizen legally allowed to carry a concealed, loaded handgun in public."


Assumes facts not in evidence.

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