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Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:32 PM

Machine gun crime before 1934(a statistics question)

I'm involved in a discussion on another site, and I'm having a terrible time finding any statistics for crimes committed with machine guns prior to the passage of the NFA, and particularly in the 1920's. Does anyone know of a source for stats like this?

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Arrow 22 replies Author Time Post
Reply Machine gun crime before 1934(a statistics question) (Original post)
NewMoonTherian Nov 2012 OP
Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #1
tortoise1956 Nov 2012 #2
gejohnston Nov 2012 #3
pipoman Nov 2012 #4
Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #5
safeinOhio Nov 2012 #6
gejohnston Nov 2012 #7
fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #8
tortoise1956 Nov 2012 #9
fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #11
tortoise1956 Nov 2012 #12
fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #14
tortoise1956 Nov 2012 #15
fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #16
tortoise1956 Nov 2012 #18
fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #19
tortoise1956 Nov 2012 #20
tortoise1956 Nov 2012 #10
fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #13
tortoise1956 Nov 2012 #17
RBrudzynski Dec 2012 #21
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #22

Response to NewMoonTherian (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:44 PM

1. Well, the St. Valentine's Day Massacre was in 1929

when machine guns were used to kill five members of The North Side Gang...Al Capone gave the order. You might want to Google him, Machine Gun Kelly and other contemporaries...

Organized crime during the 1920s might be another place to start.

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:52 PM

2. Good luck!

You might query the FBI crime database. I would bet on them having the information somewhere, if one only knew the magic search terms to pull it to the surface of the internet...

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:59 PM

3. I doubt they were common

outside of organized crime for a couple of reasons. Even then, the mob had only a few of them. One of the ones used in the St Valentines Day Massacre was also used, based on ballistics tests, in mob hits in Detroit.

They were expensive, kind of like a Barrett today. Legal and theoretically able to buy at the local hardware store, but too expensive for pre minimum wage America for most people that was useless for hunting and not as good as a shotgun or pistol for defense. Since Capone and others set up dummy security companies, not sure Auto Ordnance company policy (I'm guessing we are talking specifically the Thompson. Colt that made the BAR did offer sales to the general public, but their records show no takers.) allowed sales to the general public. That said, One of Dillenger's Thompsons was stolen from a police armory. Perhaps the question should be how good was the security of National Guard and police armories.

http://chestertontribune.com/PoliceFireEmergency/stolen_thompson_submachine_gun_returned.htm

The public outrage after the St Valentines Day Massacre not only led to congress repealing Prohibition and enacting NFA,

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:49 PM

4. Of coarse prior to NFA

you could easily by a Thompson machine gun at any hardware store. Even then they really weren't practical and most guns were bought for practicality at that time..I doubt very many, statistically, were used for crime, more novelty..sport shooting wasn't as popular at that time..

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 07:52 PM

5. Hard to glean full-auto deaths over the last 20 yrs.

It's been my contention that there are more machinegun incidents portrayed in 1 week of T.V. drama than actual deaths in the last 2 decades, and that "real" number could be tabulated on 2 hands.

So much for the dangers of machineguns.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:16 PM

6. May have something to do

With them being registered and expensive. Big time in jail for illegal pssession.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:20 PM

7. that would not explain their higher use in Europe

than here. Nor would that explain their almost nonexistent use in Canada prior to 1952. Legal ones are expensive because of the artificial supply/demand. One off the black market would not be as expensive. The average sentence for having an unregistered for a full auto is as big of a joke as straw purchasers.

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:17 PM

8. Wrong Group to Ask

Regrettably, you might get zero as an answer. Strong bias for gun protectionism.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:34 PM

9. Really?

Someone asks a simple question, and this is your response? Why don't you go hijack some other thread?

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Response to tortoise1956 (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:39 PM

11. Exhibit A

.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:43 PM

12. You must be talking about your post,

I'm actually trying to provide assistance. I suggest you quit acting like a troll...

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Response to tortoise1956 (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:53 PM

14. Right

And as I said, I expect this is the wrong group to ask, as evidenced by your response, which has nothing to do with helping the original poster.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:39 PM

15. That's cuz I'm not talking to the original poster

in these emails. And all I've seen from you are links to what look like true-crime shows. The OP asked for statistics, which is what I've been looking for. Once again, you've contributed little of value to this thread.

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Response to tortoise1956 (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:01 PM

16. Still Zero Statistcs From You and This Group

Still Zero Statistcs From You and This Group. Exactly as I expected and stated in my first post.

Now, it's true the OP asked for statistics and all I offered was video history of it happening. I'll just simply say it was 'more than you can on two hands' as one poster claimed, more than 'not common' as another poster claimed. Then again, at least you didn't jump ahead four decades as another poster did. But, gosh, I'm the one contributing 'little of value' all I imagine because my perspective on gun violence. Keep looking for those statistics.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #16)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:06 PM

18. see post 17

for information on what assistance really looks like. In the meantime, good luck in your future attempts at diversion and misdirection.

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Response to tortoise1956 (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:08 PM

19. Good for You

Hope you find what OP requested.

Was it more than what the other posters said?

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:42 PM

20. I don't know if it was or not

My guess is that it's more than a handful, based on some links I saw on modern crime. BUT - I don't know the real answer, and the OP doesn't need, and probably doesn't want to hear what my guesses are. I think the National database might be the best source, but as I said I couldn't access it tonight.

The best part of this is that I learned quite a bit myself during the searches. Now if I could just find a legal way to get rich without having to work, other than inheriting money from my Nigerian namesakes...

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:35 PM

10. I've tried several searches, still no luck

If I find something you can use, I'll let you know.

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:49 PM

13. So Far the Answer Seems to Be Zero

But you can count at least a few here



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Response to NewMoonTherian (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:02 PM

17. I haven't found anything concrete...

and I'm giving up. Here is some stuff I ran across, in case it will help.

According to the following website, the FBI has been collecting statistics since 1930:

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/ucrdata/

However, when I tried to access the National Archive of Criminal Justice Data for more information, all I got was a Not Available page. Here's the link, in case you want to try for yourself:

http://webapp.icpsr.umich.edu/cocoon/NACJD-DAS/04179.xml

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 10:31 PM

21. Possible Sources of Automatic Weapon Crime

You probably won't find any reliable pre-1934 statistics.

If there were hearings on the National Firearms Act prior to its passage in 1934, you might be able to locate some testimony by officials about the extent of machine gun use in crime. Finding this information would take either a Herculean effort or the services of a professional researcher.

I'd note that, since the passage of the National Firearms Act, the use of automatic weapons (machine guns) by criminals or psychopathic killers has been very rare. A straight-forward amendment of the 1934 National Firearms Act to include semi-automatic assault rifles, semi-automatic handguns, high-capacity magazines and body armor may well produce the same beneficial results that we have seen with machine guns - a dramatic reduction in criminal use.

The beauty of the 1934 National Firearms Act is that it is NOT a ban; therefore, the law does not run afoul of the "just compensation" clause of the Constitution which would require the government to pay for confiscated weapons. As long as the owner is licensed, the weapon registered, and the any transfer to a new owner pre-approved, there is no obligation for the government to compensate the owner. Weapons that are not registered in accordance with the law are contraband and can be confiscated without compensation.

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 10:46 PM

22. Since this thread was resurrected, I'll add a point not mentioned

, that at least some of the fully automatic weapons used in crimes during Prohibition were stolen from National Guard armories, Bonnie & Clyde being the most famous of those who obtained their guns that way.

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