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Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:41 PM

Walmart is the largest firearms dealer in US; has roughly one-a-week firearms incidents

Walmart Shootings (and other gun violence incidents)

Armed robbery at bank inside of Texas Walmart

The two gunmen inside the Tomball Walmart at the bank

Occurred November 12, 2012.
Three men are being sought for an armed robbery at the Woodforest National Bank outlet inside of a Walmart at Tomball, Texas.

Two of the men pulled out pistols at the bank, then fled with the assistance of a third man.

FBI officials said two of the men walked into the bank armed with pistols and demanded cash. They had been dropped off outside the store and then were picked by the third man, who was driving a dark Toyota or Honda four-door.

No injuries were reported.

Walmart. Save money. Die faster.

From an article and photo gallery of suspects:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cbzmaAlZj_k/UKlHxyw_Z9I/AAAAAAAAA9U/Gh_uYFkiMKk/s1600/1112+Tomball+a.jpg

read more here: http://walmartshootings.blogspot.com/2012/11/trio-stage-armed-robbery-at-walmart-in.html

208 replies, 35370 views

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Reply Walmart is the largest firearms dealer in US; has roughly one-a-week firearms incidents (Original post)
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 OP
gejohnston Nov 2012 #1
graham4anything Nov 2012 #5
gejohnston Nov 2012 #9
NewMoonTherian Nov 2012 #10
glacierbay Nov 2012 #21
graham4anything Nov 2012 #23
glacierbay Nov 2012 #29
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #76
PavePusher Nov 2012 #31
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #63
PavePusher Nov 2012 #65
gejohnston Nov 2012 #66
graham4anything Nov 2012 #74
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #77
PavePusher Nov 2012 #83
graham4anything Nov 2012 #85
PavePusher Nov 2012 #86
Marengo Nov 2012 #87
DonP Nov 2012 #88
graham4anything Nov 2012 #90
gejohnston Nov 2012 #91
PavePusher Nov 2012 #92
graham4anything Nov 2012 #94
Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #95
PavePusher Nov 2012 #105
graham4anything Nov 2012 #110
PavePusher Nov 2012 #111
gejohnston Nov 2012 #108
DonP Nov 2012 #113
ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #115
Callisto32 Nov 2012 #126
Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #93
graham4anything Nov 2012 #96
Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #97
graham4anything Nov 2012 #98
graham4anything Nov 2012 #99
Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #101
graham4anything Nov 2012 #102
Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #103
graham4anything Nov 2012 #104
Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #100
oneshooter Nov 2012 #106
graham4anything Nov 2012 #107
PavePusher Nov 2012 #109
DonP Nov 2012 #118
Dog Gone at Penigma Dec 2012 #189
ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #33
Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #41
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #167
gejohnston Nov 2012 #170
Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #188
DonP Nov 2012 #52
glacierbay Nov 2012 #54
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #168
DonP Nov 2012 #181
Union Scribe Nov 2012 #71
Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #151
glacierbay Nov 2012 #153
Baldr Odinson Dec 2012 #195
sarisataka Dec 2012 #196
gejohnston Dec 2012 #197
holdencaufield Nov 2012 #2
oneshooter Nov 2012 #3
Berserker Nov 2012 #8
Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #42
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #60
gejohnston Nov 2012 #61
rrneck Nov 2012 #64
PavePusher Nov 2012 #68
Jenoch Nov 2012 #75
oneshooter Nov 2012 #78
tortoise1956 Nov 2012 #4
Berserker Nov 2012 #6
darkangel218 Nov 2012 #7
graham4anything Nov 2012 #12
tortoise1956 Nov 2012 #13
graham4anything Nov 2012 #14
tortoise1956 Nov 2012 #17
graham4anything Nov 2012 #18
tortoise1956 Nov 2012 #20
graham4anything Nov 2012 #27
Trunk Monkey Nov 2012 #32
graham4anything Nov 2012 #37
Trunk Monkey Nov 2012 #51
holdencaufield Nov 2012 #36
graham4anything Nov 2012 #38
holdencaufield Nov 2012 #40
glacierbay Nov 2012 #26
graham4anything Nov 2012 #39
gejohnston Nov 2012 #50
graham4anything Nov 2012 #55
gejohnston Nov 2012 #57
Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #43
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #159
gejohnston Nov 2012 #164
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #169
gejohnston Nov 2012 #171
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #173
gejohnston Nov 2012 #178
Berserker Nov 2012 #22
tortoise1956 Nov 2012 #28
Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2012 #24
ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #34
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #45
Trunk Monkey Nov 2012 #53
krispos42 Nov 2012 #59
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #79
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #161
gejohnston Nov 2012 #166
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #174
gejohnston Nov 2012 #176
-..__... Nov 2012 #11
Glaug-Eldare Nov 2012 #15
Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #44
slackmaster Nov 2012 #47
Eagle_Eye Nov 2012 #16
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #48
ileus Nov 2012 #19
Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2012 #25
PavePusher Nov 2012 #30
ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #35
slackmaster Nov 2012 #46
DonP Nov 2012 #56
ileus Nov 2012 #49
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #62
PavePusher Nov 2012 #67
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #163
gejohnston Nov 2012 #165
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #172
gejohnston Nov 2012 #177
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #179
gejohnston Nov 2012 #180
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #183
gejohnston Nov 2012 #184
PavePusher Nov 2012 #186
PavePusher Nov 2012 #185
Glassunion Nov 2012 #182
ileus Nov 2012 #69
Straw Man Nov 2012 #70
rrneck Nov 2012 #58
Glassunion Nov 2012 #72
friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #73
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #134
gejohnston Nov 2012 #143
PavePusher Nov 2012 #148
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #80
Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2012 #81
PavePusher Nov 2012 #84
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #114
PavePusher Nov 2012 #116
friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #117
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #120
gejohnston Nov 2012 #121
rrneck Nov 2012 #122
friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #123
DonP Nov 2012 #119
ManiacJoe Nov 2012 #89
DonP Nov 2012 #82
Glassunion Nov 2012 #112
friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #124
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #125
friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #128
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #129
friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #130
rrneck Nov 2012 #141
ileus Nov 2012 #127
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #131
ileus Nov 2012 #154
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #132
friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #135
gejohnston Nov 2012 #139
Glassunion Nov 2012 #133
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #136
friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #137
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #138
gejohnston Nov 2012 #140
friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #145
gejohnston Nov 2012 #142
Glassunion Nov 2012 #144
Baldr Odinson Nov 2012 #146
hrmjustin Nov 2012 #147
Straw Man Nov 2012 #149
Baldr Odinson Dec 2012 #193
gejohnston Dec 2012 #198
friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #155
Straw Man Nov 2012 #150
Baldr Odinson Dec 2012 #192
Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #152
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #207
Berserker Nov 2012 #156
gejohnston Nov 2012 #157
Berserker Nov 2012 #158
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #160
gejohnston Nov 2012 #162
msanthrope Nov 2012 #175
Dog Gone at Penigma Nov 2012 #187
Baldr Odinson Dec 2012 #194
Dog Gone at Penigma Dec 2012 #190
sarisataka Dec 2012 #191
Dog Gone at Penigma Dec 2012 #199
Dog Gone at Penigma Dec 2012 #200
gejohnston Dec 2012 #202
gejohnston Dec 2012 #201
Dog Gone at Penigma Dec 2012 #203
gejohnston Dec 2012 #205
Dog Gone at Penigma Dec 2012 #206
gejohnston Dec 2012 #208
sarisataka Dec 2012 #204

Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:45 PM

1. Walmarts only have class one FFL

which means they can not and do not sell assault rifles or any other machine gun. That requires a class three.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:01 PM

5. amazing the gun people seem to be on call 24/7/365 to respond to any anti-gun thread

 

What difference does it make what type of gun?

That is my constant point that ALL guns should be stopped, because it is simple handguns that inflict damage, and the gun control needs to be totally redone

And the million dollar sound byte answers the NRA provides for any anti-gun thought of anyones to be overridden with stupid minutia is mindboggling.

No wonder the NRA hates Mayor Mike. They are sweating bullets knowing the Equalizer is around the corner to drown the minutia that has nothing to do with anything(like wgas if it is an assualt rifle or machine gun or hand gun.

guns are guns are guns are guns are guns

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:13 PM

9. like airplanes, cars, electrical codes,

guns are a technical in nature. Like those other items, guns regulations should be based on technical knowledge. That includes knowledge of current laws. Ignorant people should not rule.

OWS hates mayor Mike. The unions hate mayor Mike.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:16 PM

10. Yes, we are always here, just like anti-gunners.

And ready to respond to anti-gun comments. This is a discussion forum, and that's how it works.

The difference between an "assault weapon" and an automatic is on par with the difference between a Ducati and a Schwinn.

I agree with you, though - gun control should be completely redone. Repeal the NFA, regulate machine guns the way semi-auto's are currently regulated, and allow nationwide constitutional carry of handguns.

Guns are guns are guns, and none of them are the root cause of violence.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:29 PM

21. We're here to counter the lies

 

that the controllers constantly tell. Ring any bells?

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #21)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:32 PM

23. Nobody lies but the NRA(the worlds #1 super lobby group pac

 

with the million dollar suits concise paragraphs of sound byte answers relayed like clockwork

(I figure they have a way to instantly know code or something to alert the bosses, who pass down orders to the groupies.)

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 07:16 PM

29. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

 

Paranoid much?

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #23)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:44 PM

76. You say "Nobody lies but the NRA." Sure they do. Many anti-gunners create false straw-men.

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:08 PM

31. Your irrelevency must be a great comfort to you.

 

Sadly, your naked, greedy Authoritarianism is quite disturbing to the rest of us.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #31)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:39 PM

63. not at all

It is gun violence which is a tyranny, which keeps us from being free.

Walmart sells guns, ammo, related equipment; it is a big addition to their profit bottom line.

Therefore they go to great lengths to be welcoming to guns and gun owners, and they don't appear to give a damn if those are legal or not legal gun carriers, so long as they make their money.

People get hurt? Doesn't bother them so long as they get their money.

People do something illegal? Doesn't bother them, so long as they make that big $ bottom line.

WalMart will always look the other way when it comes to guns, no matter what harm is done -- kind of like the extremists among pro-gunners. Reasonable people want to see background checks on all sales, mandatory NICS compliance, maintaining convicted drug users in the data base for more than a year, and limitations on things like expanded capacity magazines and assault style firearms, which have a high rate of use in mass shootings.

Many also favor insurance, similar to owning a car, for damage to others, but also that would compensate the owner if something happened to the firearms -- but that would probably require a compliance with the owner for secure storage, both to manage the risk of accident, but also to reduce the chances of theft. The upside would be that if something went horribly wrong, not only would the person harmed by it be better compensated, but the gun owner would be protected from loss and would have some assistance if needed with legal defense. It is an idea that has a lot of potential upsides for the responsible gun owner. For those who aren't, not so much.

If we went to drug testing and mental health testing as a per-requisiite to gun ownership we could also potentially screen out in advance those who like Jared Loughner or James Holmes, or that guy who wanted to shoot up another theater AND A WALMART. That would make everyone safer from schizophrenic mass shooters (including gun owners), and give greater credibility to those who passed the screening as safe. It has a significant potential for reducing violent gun incidents.

I'm sure WalMart would have no problem with setting up testing services; they are already in some cases providing flu shots, walk in clinic services, etc. so long as it could make them money with gun sales.

WalMart as part of ALEC with the NRA works this with the NRA as a business opportunity in conjunction with the gun manufacturers -- and shootings or other gun incidents, are just the cost of doing business, wracking up those profits. A few customers being hurt or killed, well, hey - they're just expendable, like all of you are, to them.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #63)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:51 PM

65. O.K., I'm confused about what you are trying to say.

 

Are you claiming that WalMart doesn't care about criminals robbing a bank on their premesis? How do you come to that conclusion?

And how, exactly, do you propose that WalMart seperate "legal or not legal gun carriers"?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #65)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 05:02 PM

66. he is saying that Wal Mart pencil whips NICS checks and 4473s

Every place I been, the dealer writes a confirmation number on the form.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #31)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 03:49 AM

74. Your backing of the confederate army/dixie flag on a different thread makes it all quite clear

 

I would worry about you and the other gun board person doing the same on that thread
more than you worry about me.

The amazing thing is what a good, benevolent man Abraham Lincoln was giving 100% amnesty than citizenship back then.

(maybe Lincoln should have done that after 20 years of having the loser traitors working a chain gang in prison in chains, like the treatment they gave the slaves, belittling of course the constitutional rights of blacks in the south who had NONE even though Tommy Jefferson said all were created equal)

That is why those that defend the 2nd are laughable, because what meaning did the Declaration itself have when fraught with such hypocracy by Jefferson the Idol.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #74)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:46 PM

77. Word salad.

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #74)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 07:09 PM

83. My "backing" of WHAT?! Citation, please. n/t

 

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #83)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 07:15 PM

85. I love that NRA soundbyte word "citation". Spent 8 years on a board with NRA folk using it.

 

It is like hearing Rush's words the next day on that board stocked with rightwingers.

The thread you were on. You and at least one other group gun member, can find your words by doing a search on your own posts in your threads. You don't need me to do it (click on the "my posts" part on the right tab above all posts and it is easy to find the posts from yesterday or the day before for any posts one makes.)

(c)graham4anything 2012 (wouldn't want to not credit the above 3 lines without giving proper copywrite requirements and run afoul of the rules). wink wink wink

You can see which side was on the side of Lincoln, and which side was not.
neat and pretty as the public domain slogan goes.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #85)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 07:29 PM

86. So, you can not quote where I defend the Confederate flag? n/t

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #85)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 07:53 PM

87. Is "link" a NRA "soundbyte" also?

If not, how about providing one where he stated as you claim.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #85)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 08:01 PM

88. Cite to support your claim - or you're a fucking liar and a confused one at that

You accused a DU member of supporting the confederate battle flag in some way. That's a serious accusation, but so is lying about things like that.

Now you've been challenged to prove it and you fall back into some "well, anyone can find it, blah, blah" shit. You said it, your find it and you prove it asshat.

Provide a simple link or other supportable proof so the rest of us can judge for ourselves if what you say is true..

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Response to DonP (Reply #88)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 10:44 PM

90. link provided. You will see 2 posters names on this thread(its a long one) about the confederacy

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1847367
you would need to read the posts througout as there are so many.
( asimple look at the poster here old posts would have shown that too).

on that other board I was on(the offshoot of the official 2004 Kerry board), every single minority member(that chose to be identified as such), was driven off the board by the audacity of the gun people on that board proud in flying their dixie flag and spitting in blacks faces there. By the end of that board, very few Kerry democrats remained. I was about the last one standing along with a few others.
They werre still purporting the lying Katrina riot lie 8 years down the road.(as we know that was complete and utter bullshit.)


so there is your link.
the above opinion/words are mine as is the fact that MMMM is the Great Equalizer against the NRA(c)2012 g4a


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Response to graham4anything (Reply #90)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:36 PM

91. I did not see anything about Pave supporting the flag

FWIW, my part of Florida was a favorite destination for draft dodgers in Alamaba and Georgia. North Texas and Appalachia was another. Many of the 99 percenters were loyal to the US, and the Davis administration was full of loyal Americans who was stuck behind enemy lines, and served as spies. As the CSA became more repressive and increased taking of private property by the military and conscriptions (especially since slave holders were exempt from the draft), people became more pissed off at the CSA government.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #90)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:55 AM

92. At no time in that thread did I "back... the confederate army/dixie flag".

 

Unless you can cite to such a specific statement, of course. We eagerly await your evidence.

(Edit: I only seem to have three posts in that thread, unless I'm missing some under someone I've blocked. And I'm not unblocking anyone to do your homework for you. So a specific citation to a comment should be quite simple to do. Have at it.)

Your additional insinuations are also false, and quite irrelevent, as they have nothing to do with me.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #92)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 03:23 AM

94. 100% amnesty and citizenship for all immediately. Just like President Lincoln did after the war.

 

I am not reposting posts that are already posted in the thread within.
that is a separate thread and it is a vile thread, and don't wish to delve into it again ad hoc.
You can argue the posts on that thread over there, should you wish to continue that discussion. (and if you have posts blocked, well, I have no idea how you would see them, and the whole thread needs to be in context of that thread.)

the words you wrote are there.
I guess John Q. Reader needs to make up their mind as to what you wrote.

danke.

the other words I wrote, no where does it imply you- I was just shooting the breeze with dear readers.

do you have a guilty conscious?

btw-this is not a trial. Your constant bullying me is amazing.

And I am Jewish. I deal in realistic fact that after WW2, anyone who fought for the Nazi side, was considered a Nazi, and that to this day, even 90 year olds are still tracked down and punished for their war crimes. One saying "they were drafted and had to serve the bosses" was not an acceptable answer then or now, as everyone makes a choice, and no, not everyone fought.
Valued Patriots in America were those with conviction, who did not serve when they felt the war was not to their liking, and made the choice to move to Canada or overseas, or simply not serve and await being arrested.
They did not just say "we were forced to". Noone is forced to do anything.
I myself think President Lincoln was overnice on what he did after the war.
He should have had his cute little toes kissed by anyone and everyone who took advantage of his benevolence and in effect pardoned them and ...

and it makes me think how the same people today are so anti-other people.

When when one thinks about it,
lincoln gave 100% amnesty and then 100% citizenship
yet in 2012
the same people in the south
do NOT want the immigrants to get 100% amnesty then 100% citizenship(even though those people to me have more right to it than in the aftereffects of the war.

in WW2, things were done different in Germany.

People should kiss President LIncoln's toes with thanks that he was such a great man.
imho of course, I am sure you must agree.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #94)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 03:31 AM

95. No one's bullying you, and you demean actual bullying victims.

You called Pave a Confederate sympathizer, stated he defended the Confederacy/flag, refused to back up that assertion and when shown that you are wrong, you say "Stop bullying me!"

You're playing the victim card poorly.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #94)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 09:21 AM

105. Interesting deflection, but not relevent to your accusations of me.

 

It appears we are not actually having the same conversation.

Support your lie with evidence or go away.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #105)


Response to graham4anything (Reply #110)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 11:25 AM

111. You have not yet quoted my "backing of the confederate army/dixie flag on a different thread"....

 

...(because it doesn't exist), thus I can not logically discuss the issue with you. I can not defend, explain or retract something that I did not say.

As long as you tell lies about me, I owe you no courtesy beyond the chance to prove yourself or retract and apologize. You have a final chance to do so before I add you to my Ignore list. Your call.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #94)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 11:14 AM

108. hate to break it to you

anyone who fought for the Nazi side, was considered a Nazi, and that to this day, even 90 year olds are still tracked down and punished for their war crimes. One saying "they were drafted and had to serve the bosses" was not an acceptable answer then or now, as everyone makes a choice, and no, not everyone fought.
only those were members of the Nazi party and/or accused of war crimes. Those who served in the Wehrmacht (some of whom later also served in the Bundeswehr) do receive veterans benefits, but former SS do not (except for those drafted into the Waffen SS after 1943).
During the Berlin Airlift, USAF and RAF had a shortage of mechanics, crew chiefs, and other ground crews. Both actively recruited and employed former Luftwaffe mechanics and crew chiefs

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #108)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 11:57 AM

113. Clearly history and honesty are not his forte

The poster seems to have a cartoon level of understanding of history.

Coupled with a very unhealthy admiration for Bloomie, based on no actual facts beyond a fantasy that Bloomie will use his personal wealth, all gathered on Wall Street, to further the poster's fantasies about gun control.

They have had multiple chances to correct their untruth, but it's apparent this one doesn't have the truth in them when confronted with their lies. Just lots of "wharfgarble".

IIRC Patton, before his fatal accident, actually argued to let some former Nazi's continue to run the railroad systems and public utilities, since they knew how to do it and most had been pressed into the party to keep their jobs. But he was over ruled by Ike.

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Response to DonP (Reply #113)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:17 PM

115. You are being too kind to him

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #85)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 06:18 PM

126. It's a legal word, mein Herr.

Serious men everywhere rely upon citation. Your contempt for it speaks volumes.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #74)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 02:28 AM

93. Your assertion of Pave defending the Confederate flag is a lie.

I examined the link you offered and found only a few posts from Pave. Of those posts, none came remotely close to defending the Confederacy or the Confederate flag. Your claim is false, and you may want to apologize.

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Response to Decoy of Fenris (Reply #93)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 03:39 AM

96. the posts made by others are most certainly NOT defending the North and my President Lincoln

 

there are only 2 sides
the north and the south.
the blue or the grey

President Lincoln or Traitor Davis.
Winner Grant or Loser Lee.

I guess interpretation is in the eyes of dear readers.
But someone who is defending Lincoln would make it obvious.
Someone who is not would make it obvious.
There is no fuzzy center ground.

And Lincoln deserved to have his Presidential toes kissed by those who he instantly granted 100% amnesty to, and then 100% citzenship.
odd thing is

(and the following rest of this is not poster specific, just general rambling conversation(LOL) on my part)-

the same locations now do not want to grant 100% amnesty and 100% citzenship to people (the immigrants here), all of whom never committed any crime in their life, nor fought against the United States of America.

what an oddity it is.

I thank Mr. Lincoln every single day (and Mr. FDR, and Mr. Lyndon B. Johnson, and Mr. Jimmy Carter and Mr. Obama and will thank Ms.Hillary in four years).
(I have one of those pictures of all the Presidents located in my bedroom, and to get in or out of the bedroom(or even for that matter to go to the can), I need to pass that picture and look at it.
You want to know something funny?
I had a hard time finding a new one after the 2008 election that included President Obama on it.
The stores around here that carried it (it is one of those placemats) alwyas had it prior with Bush being the last one.

I even searched in the dreaded WalMart, and guess what?
I asked them when they are getting the new one.
And they point blank (and this is the store that donates 99.9% money to the republicans, and is the single largest seller of guns in the world), told me they (at least that branch) were discontinuing the item now that President Obama was the president.
Told me everything I ever needed to know.

I went online and found it, and of course, they sell it in all the gift shops in Washington DC itself.

You know another oddity?
I was in DC in October and went to all the memorials. And counted buttons/shirts/hats, etc. for either the loser or for President Obama. NOT ONE republican button/shirt/hat were there,
and at the Lincoln Memorial, I would say 90% of the people had some sort of item stating they were for President Obama.
Not one for anyone else.
What does that tell you?

Same with the other memorials.

It tells me that one side does not go to DC because that is not relevant to their lives.
Not even the Vietnam Memorial.

They must hate DC and not consider Lincoln/Washington/Roosevelt/Dr.King to have enriched their lives at all.

Isn't it odd?

And Walmart does NOT sell the placemat of the 44 (actually only 43 different presidents, one is counted twice) Presidents of the USA now that one of them is black.

Odd.

(the majority of this post is not specific to you personally nor about you or criticizing you.
I just write as I think in the order it comes out and jot it down. No offense meant to you or anyone else, it is MY opinion and I am sticking to it
(and for copywrite purposes, lest you say it is someone elses and no link is provided, let me add
(c)g4a 2012 (that's me).

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #96)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 04:10 AM

97. You're both offensively wrong and avoiding the truth of it.

History is not black and white, or in this case, blue and grey. A historian acknowledges and embraces the myriad of in-betweens, as history may be declared by the winner but is experienced by all. As a history buff, your exclamation that "there are only two sides" is a mark of your ignorance and lack of proper instruction by either your parents or your teachers, or both, at your young age.

The rest of your post is irrelevant to the conversation and has been disregarded as such.

In short: Pave did not defend the Confederacy. It would be civil and appreciated if you apologized to him for your blatant lie.

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Response to Decoy of Fenris (Reply #97)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 04:36 AM

98. My young age? I sure wish that were true. Youth is wasted on the young as Ralph Kramden said

 

As it matters little except for semantics, I will apologize for what you are saying is a mis-interpretation of his words defending the south during wartime. So I apologize if I mistook the meaning of their words.

I wish though you would(as you demanded of me), piece by piece word by word say how they were not defending it. Especially as your first paragraph is berating me for being rigid.
You seem to be saying it is what it is but it isn't what it is

As for anyone flying the Dixie Flag, it would be like flying the Nazi flag, because anyone who sees it would indeed be insulted by it, especially if that person were a black person.
Like the words "states rights" it has a meaning that is unmistakenable.

And you have to admit in 2012 terms, with the tea party/libertarians/republicans IT is what it is what it is is.
Their meanings are NOT 1/2 and 1/2 but whole.
They ARE racist and their belief that only the 2nd amendment applies and no others especially later ones (even though their beloved Jefferson himself wrote it was a living document to be added to and #1zillion amendment is the same as the 1st or 2nd) but they are trying to negate the 13th and all the others for their racist reasons they imply.

Now we should all kiss the feet of President Lincoln.

(and to add- I know Ralph Kramden did not write that line in the title, it is a joke, and Ralph Kramden is a fictional character (c) at that played by Jackie Gleason, who late in his career played the fun loving Sheriff in Smokey and the Bandit and supported Richard Nixon
The phrase "Youth is wasted on the young" was (c) by George Bernard Shaw, whom I believe also was the writer of Bobby Kennedy's "Some men see things as they are and say why,
I dream things that never were and say why not" (c) George Bernard Shaw

BTW-if a fictional poster in effect actually should have meant what seemingly had been implied, why the need not to admit it. Why say it then immediately fess innocense and not admit it?
I see that alot, the backing off.

If only John Kerry had said, damn right, I said it and meant it, when caught not knowing the mike was on when he said something about W being a (so and so).

If you write it, be proud of it. (again I am talking a fictional poster here, no one in general meant or implied).

Otherwise, perhaps clarrify it, though I myself would never demand military style someone do something like that. It's too bossy and too bully. And I am not a bully nor a boss.
Nor do I own a gun, nor ever will.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #98)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 04:39 AM

99. edit to above-

 

I read your "youth" statement wrong.
I see you meant "WHEN" I was young, not that I am young now.

that leads to another story, another one I am sure you are not interested in, however
my favorite teacher of all I had back in highschool taught Civil War to the present, from Lincoln to the current at that time.

And he presented an unbiased warts and all about Lincoln that was not the regular taught
stuff kids learned about Lincoln.
Pretty progressive for that time period in a NYC public school.
And he is the teacher I always remember too.

anyhow, just wanted to pre-correct my post above.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #99)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 04:48 AM

101. Excellent. Your teacher taught regurgitation, not substance.

Regurgitation gets you through tests. Substance gets you through life.

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Response to Decoy of Fenris (Reply #101)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 05:01 AM

102. No, actually quite the opposite. You have your opinion, I will keep mind.

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #102)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 05:19 AM

103. Wrong again.

You state that your teacher taught you about Lincoln while being "unbiased". History is -always- biased. Unless your teacher was giving lessons like "Abraham Lincoln was born in America. He became a President. He had a beard.", there is bias. I am, for the sake of this argument, using hyperbole to better help your understanding of my point.

Now, if your teacher taught like that (which is unbiased and simple declaration of fact), then he taught regurgitation: Solely designed for test-taking. If, however, your teacher offered lessons more along the lines of the sociopolitical impact on the far north New England states of Lincoln's election prior to the active state of the Civil War and how it directly affected the Norths influence on wartime production, it'd be more of an unbiased approach.

My guess is your teacher simply taught you moralistic but otherwise stagnant "Facts". Your ignorance at the time would see this as a great thing (when approached from a moralistic angle) in contrast to other teachers potentially offering drier fare (Algebra, physics, what have you), and would be more receptive to appreciation of the subject matter.

ON EDIT: You, of course, have the right to your opinion. I can't make you right; I can only point out when you're wrong, "Opinion" or not.

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Response to Decoy of Fenris (Reply #103)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:26 AM

104. There are two sides to all wars.

 

If you are saying the North had the fundamentally better ability to win a war, then the south should not have bothered to fight.

In my view, the north had the better soldiers

Now, if you say the south had the better smarter general, well, that could be an opinion, however, like in football or baseball, having a great manager like say Dick Williams is/was was great. But he did not win every single year. Some years he came up a loser.
Casey Stengel is one of the greatest ever, yet he managed the 1962 Mets.

As enevitable as it was that President Obama was going to win the 2008 primary, election and 2012 reelection, so it was that the North would win.
forget issues, just on what was available to each side

But then the south knew that going in

Now WW2, I don't know what Hitler was thinking, but he was a one man force who without him there was no force at all. If they had unmanned bunker busting drones back then, the world could have saved 6 million Jews, and all the millions others.
Now, that begets the question- what if Hitler were an American General and fought in the Civil War (which side? )
Hitler was a great tactician, but in WW2 maybe he didn't count on America becoming involved.
Who really knows.

But if Hitler were in a civil war, who knows what would have happened.
Who would Hitler have hated back then? Would he have hated at all? or just fought the war, like some claim Lee and Jefferson Davis and the confederates did?

What would Jefferson Davis have done about 9-11?
What would Lincoln have done about Bin-laden?


history is fascinating, but of course, we all here can only guess what it was like then and everyone (yourself included) has a biased view of the past.
It is like I love LBJ for everything he did (but Vietnam). Many hate him solely because of vietnam

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #98)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 04:46 AM

100. I'll break it down very slowly for you.

You insinuated Pave defended the Confederacy without offering proof of said insinuation.

Pave requested you provide proof.

You initially refused to offer proof, and when you did supply a link that you state supported your assertion, said link was devoid of proof.

You are asking that I word-by-word breakdown something that isn't there; That is an impossible task, and you know it is. If you -don't- know said task is impossible... It is. You can't prove something -isn't- there.

My comments about your youth were ill-phrased, and I will rephrase them here: Either your parents or teachers (or both) failed you when it came down to teaching you history when you were young, given your borderline elementary understanding and crude, rudimentary grasp of historical analysis and dialogue.


Just so you know: A bully is one who emotionally or physically abuses another person. You have done just that by blatantly lying about PavePusher. You have accused him of something, and yet will neither prove it nor answer to requests that you own your words. You are, by definition, the bully in this argument.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #98)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 09:58 AM

106. You do know that Lincoln was a Repub.

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #106)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 11:13 AM

107. things have changed. Like the Whigs. Todays Dems are Yesterdays Repubs. (and vice versa).

 

You do realize that, don't you?

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #107)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 11:15 AM

109. Your deflection is irrelevent to the lies you have told.

 

Please present your evidence of your claim about me.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #109)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 03:02 PM

118. He/She is gone from the thread, locked out

I guess ignorant and rude is no way to go through life.

It just takes some folks longer to catch on.

But we can recall this thread the next time they bring the stupid again, and they will.

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Response to DonP (Reply #118)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:31 AM

189. who

is locked out?

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:14 PM

33. And there is a Mayor Mike worshiper available at all times to incoherently jump into threads

where he knows little to nothing and contributes less.

Firearms like cars, computers, and airplanes are a technical topic. Types matter, especially since people like the OP make major mistakes in their posts since they know nothing about what they screed upon.

Any one who opposes you or corrects your numerous errors is automatically a right wing NRA member and supporter. Some you repeatedly claim without proof.

Still looking for why you post here with your slavish devotion to one of the worst 1%ers out there...and many people hate him including unions and OWS. He doesn't care, the 1%ers never do care about the people.


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Response to graham4anything (Reply #5)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 08:20 AM

41. You're an extreme prohibitionist. We get it.nt

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #41)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:35 PM

167. not at all

You are engaging in ad hominem. I brought up a fact that you don't like - that there are a lot of problems with people carrying guns in WalMarts.

You haven't disproved the fact that WalMart attracts gun owners, and makes a lot of money off of doing so.

You haven't shown any facts that despite the high frequency of gun carry in WalMart, that no one has stopped a crime by using their personal weapon.

What I have shown is that WalMart marketing and security policies have created a dangerous environment, proving they are bad corporate citizens in this regard. And I have shown that when you have a lot of people who are carrying guns in large retail shopping facilities they are dangerous to the employees, customers, etc.

There is nothing extreme about that, nor is there anything prohibitionist about it either.

The facts are not your friend here. Period.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #167)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:46 PM

170. the burden is on you to prove

that WalMart attracts gun owners more than any other big box
have not shown any evidence that people carry guns in WalMart more than any other place.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #167)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:13 PM

188. Before divvying up the "facts," this one stands out: I was responding to Graham4...

(2) It is your responsibility to show some dynamic of "attraction" other than the same force field that by your reckoning must snag shoppers at Academy Sports and Outdoors, Cabelas, and other big box retailers. And you certainly haven't stated the significance of this: "You haven't disproved the fact that WalMart attracts gun owners, and makes a lot of money off of doing so." Remember: It is your responsibility show how (if true) it is significant. (You may want to investigate what the rates of crime are at these other big boxes; perhaps WalMart has other characteristics which make it pop up on the controller-prohibitionist radar screen, such as social or ideological prejudice.)

(3) As well, what is the significance of: "despite the high frequency of gun carry in WalMart, that no one has stopped a crime by using their personal weapon." Again, you must provide the facts to support a commonly-used straw man that self-defense is some kind of social policy. No, gun carrying is eminently an individual choice.

(4) You may have something with WalMart's security problems, though you aren't specific. As to marketing, gun sellers are like anyone else who sells: They market. What's your point?

(5) You need to provide something in the way of evidence when you state: "...you have a lot of people who are carrying guns in large retail shopping facilities," and further how this is a "danger" to others.

Facts are neither friend or foe, it's the significance one draws or strangles from them.





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Response to graham4anything (Reply #5)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:30 AM

52. Samuel Adams had people just like you in mind when he said ...

"We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

You have made it clear, several times in fact, that you would willingly give up all your personal liberty to "feel" safe. And you do a great job of "licking" the hand of your mayor that took over a week to get your power back on. But somehow he's magically protecting you all the time.

Thankfully we don't make, or ajudicate laws based on how anyone "feels".

You can "Feel" anyway you want, but in the meantime, while you and a shrinking handful of people think they are somehow gaining ground on gun control by getting handful of people banned over a few months here on a web chat board, we are going to continue to roll back restrictive gun laws in the real world.

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Response to DonP (Reply #52)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:36 AM

54. +1000000

 

This guy just doesn't get it and he never will.

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Response to DonP (Reply #52)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:41 PM

168. Nonsense

Samuel Adams was speaking about war, not private self defense, and he most certainly had no vision of the kinds of gun incidents or WalMarts, which renders this ridiculous as a comment or argument.

You do not appear to have a very good grasp of history if you fail to include that as context.

You are not rolling back restrictive gun laws in the real world. The United States is the only place that has these kinds of insanity, and it is only a matter of time before the U.S. rejoins the rest of the world in gun policy.

Switzerland didn't give women the vote until 1970, fifty years after we did here in the United States. But they did do it.
The UK got rid of slavery roughly 50 years ahead of the United States doing so. But we did it eventually.

We are not immune to or outside the world trends; we will join them, eventually, on weapons as well, because they are right and you are wrong. Freedom is not measured by firearms. Personal lethal force is not enhancing our safety or security; otherwise we wouldn't have the number of deaths and injuries from firearms that we have.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #168)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:11 PM

181. Not even close

Adams was talking about his countrymen that were willing to trade the false perception of safety in return for their individual freedoms, just like you and our resident Bloomie worshipper.

"Stop all those citizens with concealed guns in Wal Mart so I feel safer."

Then you cook the books and misstate a handful of events in the parking lots to make Wally World sound like the frickin streets of Beirut. Nobody wit two brain cells to rub together is buying it. I mean hate on 'em for their imported goods and bad labor practices all you want, but man, the gun thing is an over reach and a half.

Look, your appeal to emotion is pathetic, poorly phrased and falling on a nation with deaf ears to it. I guess according to your judgement the same nation that overwhelmingly elected Obama twice, is just too stupid to appreciate insight from people like you.

After crying wolf for over a decade, with the help of the Joyce Foundation and Brady, America discovered that their message of imminent death and destruction and skyrocketing crime rates was full of shit and nothing bad happens when you allow CCW.

Not a single state is even considering repealing their CCW laws, Illinois is only 3 votes in the legislature away from making it 50 states. In 2012 alone, states have loosened the previous restrictions 29 times when the streets never got around to running red with blood. (But I guess all those shooting moved to the housewares aisle in Wally World, huh?)

But if all those guns make you nervous, and you don't want to wait for the US to "smarten up" and become another UK, why not just move to gun free Mexico, with only one gun store in the whole country? I bet we could get folks to chip in, if you promise not to get internet access.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #5)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:30 AM

71. Still singing the praises of a right wing anti-labor asshole eh?

Fuck the NRA and Bloomberg. The whole bunch of them probably agree on more than not.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #5)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 09:30 AM

151. Amazing, the 24/7/365 prohibitionist postings...

One would think they would see in their sleepless days and nights the bankruptcy of prohibitionism.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #5)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 10:22 AM

153. You mean these gun people?

 

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:41 AM

195. And yet they do

And yet they do sell semi-auto assault rifles in many of their stores. Here's video of it:

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Response to Baldr Odinson (Reply #195)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:05 AM

196. Easy explaination

AR and AK pattern semi-auto rifles are not assault rifles.

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Response to Baldr Odinson (Reply #195)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:29 AM

197. notice I said "assault rifles or other machine guns"

which means assault rifles are legally machine guns. In order to be an assault rifles, it must be select fire both semi auto and automatic.
In other words, yet they don't.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:50 PM

2. News Flash ...

 

... people try to rob the world's largest retailer.

Film at 11 ...

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:52 PM

3. What does a bank being robbed in a Wally World have to do with gun sales at that store?

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:09 PM

8. Stop making sense

 

the magic word GUN is in the OP. Jeeeeeez

GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS

It's a fact that if you say GUN enough times their heads explode.

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 08:26 AM

42. There are air bubbles chuffing in my toilet, that's what!

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:54 AM

60. carry pattern

Very simple; it is possible for someone to buy a gun at the store, and then use it at the store for a robbery.

More to the point, anyone intending to commit a robbery blends right in; WalMart differs from other major retailers in allowing concealed, and in some cases where it is widely legal, open carry. WalMart is notorious as the first place people with newly issued carry permits go to try out wandering around armed in public.

A bank robbery per se is not linked to gun sales; but it informative that with all those carrying guns present, they did not stop a crime in progress, despite all of the hype we get from the pro-gunners about how their having guns makes us all so much safer and is a crime deterrent. People with guns at WalMart do not raise a red flag, as they should in the case of a robbery, the way they do at other commercial establishments.

Rather what is instructional about this web site - including this article - is that WalMart, as a corporation that has 1 or more incidents in an average week (this is now the beginning of the 47th week of 2012) while being so pro-gun has a far higher risk of accidental or intentional harm or threat of harm to customers and staff, while having no apparent advantage in greater safety or crime deterrence.

In other words there is a significant down side in gun carriers presenting a danger to the public, but no apparent up side to it.

I probably should have spelled that out earlier, but I thought connecting those dots was pretty obvious.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #60)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:06 PM

61. it is possible for someone to buy a gun at the store, and then use it at the store for a robbery.

very slim probability, and very stupid if you plan on getting away with it. Besides, how many people go from clean record to bank robbery?

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #60)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:43 PM

64. That's got to be the stupidest post ever.

To buy a gun in a store you have to pass a federal background check and present identification. Bank robbers don't intentionally leave ID at the scene of the crime. Nor do they stand around and converse with the staff before the robbery. Not unless they have a place reserved in the police line up.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #60)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 05:21 PM

68. Those dots can't be connected.....

 

as they aren't in the same book, let alone on the same page.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #60)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:28 PM

75. "WalMart is notorious as the first place people with newly issued carry

permits go to try out wandering around armed in public." Do you have a link to your source for this statement? Or is it more fantasy?

By the way, although somebody COULD buy a shotgun at Walmart and then use it to rob the store on the same visit, the likelyhood of such a crime is radically small. Do you have a link to a story where such an incident occurred? Also, Walmart does not sell handguns (except in Alaska).

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #75)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:49 PM

78. When you purchase a long arm at Wall Mart.

You do the "Wall Mart walk" The boxed rifle/shotgun is carried by a manager to the exit door. They hand you the box OUTSIDE the store.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 04:57 PM

4. What's the point of your post?

Not being rude, I just don't understand what you're trying to communicate here.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:02 PM

6. BAN Walmart parking lots!

 

"Three years ago management conducted a survey that looked at crime statistics for a one year period on Wal-Mart properties. The survey showed that 80% of crimes at Wal-Mart were occurring in the parking lot.
"A quick review of reported cases reveals that Wal-Mart parking lots are a virtual magnet for crime"
http://www.jrrobertssecurity.com/articles/wal-mart-parking-lot-crime.htm

If you don't want to DIE FASTER carry a weapon to protect yourself I do.

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Response to Berserker (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:09 PM

7. " If you don't want to DIE FASTER carry a weapon to protect yourself I do."

+1
:

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:36 PM

12. Real women & men walk away alive from a fight.Guns only inflate a situation.

 

And why are gun people always thinking someone is after them, then shoot themselves in their privates accidentally?

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:47 PM

13. Has Penicide suddenly become a public epidemic?

I have never known anybody to accidentally shoot themselves in the privates. I HAVE known 3 people who used weapons to prevent crimes against themselves - 2 attempted robberies and one burglary. Miraculously, none of them had to actually shoot the criminal - merely producing a weapon had the desired effect.

I guess they should have their right to bear arms revoked for failing to gun down innocents in the process...

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Response to tortoise1956 (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:50 PM

14. The people were going to rob themselves? At gunpoint? Sounds like the sheriff

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:00 PM

17. Sorry, I assumed you had a basic understanding English-language grammar

Their use of a weapon prevented the commission of crimes in which they would have been the victim.

I hope this helps you to better understand my original post. Let me know if you need more assistance with grammar.

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Response to tortoise1956 (Reply #17)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:03 PM

18. I just spent 2 weeks without electricity on a dark block and guess what?

 

never thought once about buying a gun or needing one

Like in the song "where were you when the world stop spinning" Alan Jackson asked
did you go buy a gun or watch I love Lucy reruns instead

I watched I love Lucy reruns

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:23 PM

20. Seriously, sorry to hear that

I hope things are looking up for you. How close are they to getting things back to normal?

As for personal defense, I submit that playing "I Love Lucy" episodes in public could be classified as employing an antipersonnel weapon...

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Response to tortoise1956 (Reply #20)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:37 PM

27. electric came back on, and a few days ago cable/internet, but many still much worse off in NJ/NY

 

only internet was at libraries, and an iPhone during the time
2 nights spent in car for heat and charging

but again, never felt the need for a gun.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:10 PM

32. How did you watch I love Lucy with no electricity? NT

 

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Response to Trunk Monkey (Reply #32)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:16 AM

37. on my battery operated DVD player

 

And on my computer using first batteries/ and/or sitting in our car with the car charger in
and occassionally having the car on to provide heat.
Some of the days/nights it was very cold

Again, people are much worse off than we and still without, and it has gotten colder in the days since.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #37)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:30 AM

51. Glad to hear you made it. NT

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:37 AM

36. Lucille Ball ...

 

... a strident defender of 2nd Amendment rights!

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #36)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:22 AM

38. You cannot say what her opinion would be today though.

 

Lucy herself in real life though was someone much admired, and she and Joan Crawford were two women pioneers in Hollywood and in business itself, way ahead of the times.

but that has nothing to do with the line in the Alan Jackson song
(which btw showed Alan to be a progressive and was a bold step at the time himself for being outside the typical stereotyped country singer that has to at least appear rightwing conservative to get country radio airplay. Especially as Alan was singing that LOVE is the greatest thing to conquer prejudice, violence(guns) and fear.(people with guns because they fear something...

Since the last few years more and more country singers are attempting to be quite the opposite what say Hank Jr.'s southern jingoism is.

BTW-there were NO riots by minorities in either Katrina or Sandy.
Except in the minds of Fox and other racist or paranoic people.
It has been proven.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #38)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:32 AM

40. Hertz Doughnut

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:37 PM

26. Wow

 

Did you actually watch the movie? Because it sure as hell wasn't about robbing himself, it was about getting out of a bad situation.



You're just all over the place.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #26)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:33 AM

39. It was actually about racism and the movie a satire on the old west mentality

 

with one of the very best endings in the history of motion pictures
(when they galloped a few feet and got off the horse into the limos)

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #39)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:14 AM

50. it was a satire of western movies

had nothing to do with the "old west mentality" which you know nothing about.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #50)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:02 AM

55. of course it did. Mel Brooks never keeps his movies to one single subject.

 

that you don't see it, hear it, feel it is your problem, not mine.

And of course his satire is eternal, still resonates today.

BTW-Mel Brooks is also like Bloomberg a NYC Jew.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #55)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:15 AM

57. It has been years since I've watched it

some people see more in lit and movies than the writers put in or thought about.
good satire always does
So?

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Response to tortoise1956 (Reply #13)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 08:30 AM

43. No, but a pubic epidemic may occur.nt

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Response to tortoise1956 (Reply #13)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:04 PM

159. Self-defense stories tend to be like exaggerated fishing stories

There are lots of cases of men shooting themselves in the penis/ testicles, and backside.

Here is a relatively recent one of the former:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/10/michael-smeriglio-accidentally-shoots-own-penis_n_1871984.html

and here is a recent example of the latter
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/15/man-accidentally-shoots-self-in-nevada-movie-theater/

They not only failed to defend themselves against others, they failed to defend themselves against themselves, and endangered others.

It is a major flaw in the rabidly pro-gunner thought process that they give too little weight to these real incidents, and too much weight to what are all too often bogus favorable gun incidents.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #159)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:25 PM

164. rabidly?

It is a major flaw in the rabidly pro-gunner thought process that they give too little weight to these real incidents, and too much weight to what are all too often bogus favorable gun incidents.
The "bogus favorable gun incidents" are investigated by the police, and the DA called them legitimate. These real incidents are less than 100 out of four million.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #164)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:44 PM

169. penis shootings? yes they're rare

But they are far more rare in countries with more restrictive gun regulation.

Most bogus gun incident claims are not reported to police and not investigated by police.

The WalMart incidents are all documented very publicly, and are usually investigated by both the police and the media.

NONE of you have yet to refute that they reflect badly on people with guns at WalMart, and reflect badly on WalMarts.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #169)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:49 PM

171. so?

Even though we have more gun crime than Europe, they have more machine gun crime than we do. It isn't that hard to get an illegal gun in Europe.

Most bogus gun incident claims are not reported to police and not investigated by police.

then you have no evidence they exist or that they are bogus

The WalMart incidents are all documented very publicly, and are usually investigated by both the police and the media.
in a propaganda blog. Every Ace Hardware I have been to has a bigger and better selection of guns and accessories than Wal Mart. Why doesn't Ace have the same problem? For example, my wife isn't going to find ammo for her Soviet Block pistol at at Wal Mart. She does find it at the locally owned Ace Hardware store down the road from me.

NONE of you have yet to refute that they reflect badly on people with guns at WalMart, and reflect badly on WalMarts.
huh?

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #171)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:56 PM

173. No one here

has successfully disputed that people carrying guns in WalMart are a problem, as reflected in the frequency of these problem gun incidents.

No one here has successfully refuted that this reflects bad retail policy by WalMart.

And none of you has shown where a gun carrier in a WalMart had a positive, constructive, or defensive use of a firearm to stop a crime, or make anyone safer from these gun incidents.

So there appears to be no significant up side to WalMart policy, other than their greed for profits at the expense of safety, if that is an upside. And the usual assertion for carrying a firearm - protection and self-defense - is shown to be wrong, mistaken, not true.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #173)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 02:31 PM

178. you have not

successfully shown that people carrying guns in Wal Mart is a problem, nor that their policy is any different than Kmart's.

So there appears to be no significant up side to WalMart policy, other than their greed for profits at the expense of safety, if that is an upside. And the usual assertion for carrying a firearm - protection and self-defense - is shown to be wrong, mistaken, not true.
you have not shown Wal Mart's policy is any different than Dick's Sporting Goods. In order for your hypothesis to work, Gander Mountain and Cabela's would have a higher rate than Wal Mart.


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Response to graham4anything (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:31 PM

22. I always run from a fight

 

but when I do I feel so ashamed I shoot myself in the balls just to teach myself a lesson.

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Response to Berserker (Reply #22)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:45 PM

28. That's kinda hard on the twins...

I hope you're done fathering children!

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:32 PM

24. Real women & men walk away alive from a fight ??

as opposed to Unreal ??

and you are laughing at people in accidents ??

callous. cruel. insensitive.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:16 PM

34. Another supporter of throwing yourself on the mercy of perp

Then again he worships NYC overlord Bloomberg, so this should not surprise us.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #12)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 08:56 AM

45. About a million and a half people every year would disagree with you.

 

Real women & men walk away alive from a fight.

Something like 1.3 million people are victims of violent crime every year. I'm sure all of those victims wish they could have been "real women and men" and could have walked way from the people that victimized them.

I don't expect every victim of violent crime to try and defend themselves. When presented with violence, no one knows how they will really respond until it happens.

But it is highly denigrating to suggested that people who are unable to walk away from violence are not "real women and men".

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #12)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:34 AM

53. Re: Real women & men walk away alive from a fight.

 

I have to ask, what happens when the other person isn’t interested in letting you walk away? Or simply attacks you with the intent to do serious bodily harm? I got out of high school a long time ago, if an unknown stranger randomly attacks me I assume that it is deadly serious.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #12)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:53 AM

59. Yeah, because they have a fast draw or fast feet. n/t

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:51 PM

79. One more straw-man. Can't you come up with something new?

 

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #79)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:18 PM

161. NOT a strawman

Countries that have better gun regulation have less gun crime.

They still have some crime, but they have less of this kind of crime.

They have for example far far fewer law enforcement fatalities, and the ones they do have are not from violent crime.

People with guns in their homes have more instances of gun violence in their homes -- and not from intruders.

People with guns in their homes have far more incidents of kids being injured or killed, of suicides, homicides, murder/suicides.
Guns make a lot of kinds of violence and intimidation easier in ways alternative methods of violence do not.

So until you can magically wave your gun and make those statistics go away, it is not a straw man, it is a valid statement of fact that you cannot refute away. Guns kill people.

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=6L6&sa=X&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&biw=1354&bih=598&tbm=isch&tbnid=s4Um-svqnHvD7M:&imgrefurl=http://www.myspace.com/85795222&docid=SuLjtjqMO4epXM&imgurl=&w=400&h=400&ei=aQO1UO6xCOvuiQKem4C4Bw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=4&vpy=138&dur=867&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=87&ty=115&sig=111977705240539394157&page=1&tbnh=142&tbnw=142&start=0&ndsp=23&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:88

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #161)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:30 PM

166. some countries do

all of those have much less wealth inequality, universal health care, and more social mobility. Brazil, Jamaica, South Africa, Russia, British Virgin Islands, and Mexico to name a few all have what you define as "better gun regulations" but make us look like Japan and Norway.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #166)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:59 PM

174. Not really very good comparisons

With the possible exception of Russia, none of those other countries really qualify as comparable to Europe or the U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand... the countries usually considered developed.

They are either third world countries, or developing but not developed ones.

Mexico in particular is unable to enforce their gun regulation. Both regulation and reasonable ability to enforce the regulations is required for a fair comparison.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #174)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 02:18 PM

176. actually they are

when you look at wealth inequality, we are closer to Mexico than the others. Since there is a stronger correlation of wealth inequality with various social ills, including violent crime, that is far more relevant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/08/01/620401/study-income-inequality-homicides/?mobile=nc
http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence

If gun laws are that relevant, then what does "level of development", which refers to economics, matter? Without a good explanation, it sounds like cherry picking. Besides, the UN defines South Africa as developed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developing_country
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=68563

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Response to -..__... (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:50 PM

15. Issue beans to all employees n/t

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Response to Glaug-Eldare (Reply #15)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 08:34 AM

44. They'll be blazing away for sure.

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Response to -..__... (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:01 AM

47. Ban young poor parents who can't afford to take their offspring anywhere better

 

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 05:59 PM

16. "men walked into the bank armed with pistols and demanded cash"

Walmart does not sell pistols.

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Response to Eagle_Eye (Reply #16)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:11 AM

48. they were armed with rifles. n/t

 

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:22 PM

19. Finally their 100 pack of federal 223 went down 5 bucks.

It had been 39.xx bucks for over a year, imagine my surprise when it actually went down to 34.xx.

I picked up another 100 rounds today, while carrying my M&P 9c.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:36 PM

25. what part of Bank do you not understand?

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:05 PM

30. What does a bank robbery have to do with WalMart selling firearms?

 

Is this the level of coherency/irrelevence we can expect from you in the future? Or will we see bigger and better things?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #30)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:17 PM

35. He has been worse...

The other night he replied three times to the same post...saying different things each time

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:00 AM

46. People don't rob Walmart bank branches because the store sells guns

 

They rob Walmart bank branches because "...that's where the money's at."

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #46)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:09 AM

56. Thank you Willie Sutton. A professionlal stating the obvious truth Ntxt

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:31 AM

49. So bank robbery is now classified as a "firearm incident"

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Response to ileus (Reply #49)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:14 PM

62. would you like this firearms incident better?

Isn't an attempted robbery at gun point an incident, and if it is by people armed with guns, it is certainly classified by the police as a firearms incident, yes.

That is as true if it involves robbing a bank inside a Walmart or robbing the firearms being sold inside one.

Perhaps you would prefer the most recent incident involving firearms instead on the website, that happened since I posted this one.
Stolen firearms transferred in Oregon Walmart parking lot]
Occurred November 10, 2012.

Three young men were caught transferring stolen guns from one car to another, in a parking lot of a Walmart store in Eugene, Oregon.


As they happen every several days or so, if you don't like one incident with firearms, there will be another one that is different soon enough. A lot of them involve men dropping trou to relieve themselves in the men's bathroom, where they also drop their firearms, which go off, blowing toilets out from under the gun nut's behind, and which scares the shit out of the people in the adjoining stalls - and sometimes wounds them as well.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #62)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 05:12 PM

67. I'm not sure what you want WalMart to do about criminals.

 

Maybe they should sponser police forces in their locales?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #67)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:24 PM

163. There are lots of things they could do

1. they could honor their earlier agreement not to sell firearms, which they entered into because of illegal conduct on their part as a corporation.
2. they could have security patrolling their parking lots - they often don't, and when they don't they have high crime problems
3. the problems at WalMart with firearms are all too often with people who are legal buyers and carriers, not just criminals. They should not only stop selling firearms, which is clearly part of the attraction of these people to their stores, they should post signs banning carrying in their stores. Clearly, with an incident every week -- and the frequency is increasing, not decreasing, for these problem gun incidents ---their current policies are not working for them, for their employees, or their customers.

WalMart has a very aggressive policy against shop lifting -- and good for them, they should.
They don't have a similar policy against people who endanger other people in their stores, but they should.

Currently, you drop your gun, or accidentally shoot someone while getting out your wallet, no problem, come back as often as you like, armed with as many guns as you like. Endangering other people should not be acceptable conduct.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #163)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:27 PM

165. what illegal conduct?

Are you saying the Waltons bribed the ATF to get FFLs? Who did Wal Mart make the agreement with?

The main attraction to the store is cheap shit for people can't afford better.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #165)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:51 PM

172. WalMart was NOT complying with the requirements for proper gun sales

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/04/29/ammo-on-aisle-three-walmart-brings-back-guns-to-many-stores/

As a result they discontinued all gun sales for a time, then brought back only long guns promising they wouldn't sell hand guns, and finally returned to selling hand guns again as well.

Most of the gun incidents, and the steep increase in the problems with gun incidents, appear to coincide with their return to hand gun sales and the timing of the increase in carrying.

They did not have the problem with gun incidents during the period they were not selling guns at all.

The original non-compliance is a matter of record on the internet; go look it up yourself.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #172)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 02:21 PM

177. what requirements and by required by whom?

If they violated any of the federal gun laws, their Federal Firearms Licenses would be revoked.

Sorry, the burden of proof is on those who make the claim.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #177)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:48 PM

179. Not a problem

Walmart, although they claimed they were discontinuing selling firearms back in the 1990s due to poor sales, had lost in litigation due to a pattern of failing to comply with legal provisions.

In 2008, they made a voluntary agreement to more strictly limit sales, and to improve their sales training and practices - again, because they were doing things that were illegal. My understanding is that the way WalMart dealt with the litigation was to blame individual employees, who were not properly trained, or who were following what directions they were given, but then claimed that was not their corporate policy -- however the problems were not a few isolated incidents they were chronic, leading to civil litigation.

Here is the WSJ article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703367004576289230488920802.html

and here are the applicable quotes:

Wal-Mart hasn't sold handguns at its stores since the early 1990s, when it discontinued them save for special orders in Alaska. It continued to sell the ammunition. It voluntarily agreed to adopt stricter gun sales policies in 2008 as part of a pact with Mayors Against Illegal Guns, a group co-founded by New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg.

... Wal-Mart and other large retailers were notorious for lax training of gun clerks in the 1990s, leading to several lawsuits. But the code of conduct Wal-Mart adopted following pressure from the mayors in 2008 "makes them a leader" among retailers today.

"We certainly don't object to the sales of guns in general, but there was a history of problems at big-box stores" in their training of employees. "It was clear that the workers selling guns had no more training than those selling vacuum cleaners," Mr. Henigan said. "But Wal-Mart has since adopted policies that exceed the minimum requirements. For example they now refuse to sell a gun until they receive word that the Brady background has been completed; the law says that authorities have three days to complete the check and if they don't comply by then the gun can be sold."


A more recent example of WalMart having to enter into an agreement to limit their sales and make changes to their retail policy would be the discontinuation of tactical firearms in Indiana, because of problems:

http://www.abc57.com/news/UPDATE-Wal-Mart-takes-tactical-guns-off-the-shelf--173322761.html

SOUTH BEND, Ind. --- An update to an ABC 57 News exclusive. Last week ABC 57 told you how Wal-Mart was not following a written agreement with the City of South Bend regarding the sale of guns.

ABC 57 found tactical guns and .223 high-powered ammunition it promised not to sell. Now, because of our news report, the retail giant is now taking those guns off the shelves.

Common Council Vice President Oliver Davis held a phone conference with Wal-Mart on Monday morning. Davis said the store was very apologetic and eager to fix the problem.

Reverend Greg Brown, a local minister on the city's West side, became concerned about Wal-Mart’s gun sales after two of the kids in his youth group said they were offered $50 to steal ammunition from the store.

"A gentleman came to them with a gym bag and asked them to load it up with ammunition and come out where they get tires," Brown.

ABC 57 went to the Wal-Mart off Ireland Road in South Bend. That is when we found a 12 gauge tactical shotgun in the display case, next to .223 high-powered ammunition.

Both items are not supposed to be sold at the store based on a written agreement with the City of South Bend.

"We had a great relationship with them and this is why it was alarming to me that they had not honored their part of the bargain," said Davis.

"A .223 round can shoot through a bulletproof vest, so we are concerned about our police officers safety and anybody else," said Councilman Tim Scott.


While here it appears WalMart was eager to correct their error............a review of their corporate history with a wide variety of non-compliance with regulation, agreements, ordinances, and law is a systemic pattern. Where they fix a problem, they often go back to that practice when they believe attention to their practices has lapsed. This is just part of what I referred to as problems with their retail policy. WalMart is not a good corporate citizen, and that is part of the problem with their gun sales and their gun incidents on their property.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #179)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:10 PM

180. non binding agreements,

If there were legal violations, they should have been reported to the ATF and prosecuted by the US Attorney. If WalMart violated the Gun Control Act, or any of the two federal gun laws from the 1930s, they would have lost their licenses and someone would have gone to federal prison. I'm not saying putting ammo in front of the counter is a good idea, I'm simply saying it does not violate federal law or any ATF regulation.
MAIG is not a reliable source because:
it is an advocacy group
has a high percentage of felons among its membership
has been in trouble with the ATF for their James O'Keefe style stings.



The entire rant about .223 ammunition, including it being "high powered" is inaccurate. .223 is not a high powered round. In fact, the round is not legal for deer hunting in Wyoming and some other states because it is not powerful enough to kill a mule deer or proghorn. It is legal in states that have smaller deer. Deer are bigger, and everything else is better, in Wyoming than Texas. No offense to our resident Texans.

"A .223 round can shoot through a bulletproof vest, so we are concerned about our police officers safety and anybody else," said Councilman Tim Scott.
that is true of most if not all rifle rounds. That includes the much more powerful .30-06 that grandpa uses for hunting. In other words, the Councilman is either dishonest or, most likely, unwittingly repeating the claims of someone who is.

Couple of more things:

.
.. Wal-Mart and other large retailers were notorious for lax training of gun clerks in the 1990s, leading to several lawsuits. But the code of conduct Wal-Mart adopted following pressure from the mayors in 2008 "makes them a leader" among retailers today.
Which lax training are they talking about? Technical knowledge of firearms? They are guilty of that, along with technical knowledge of everything else they sell. The proper record keeping process outlined in the Gun Control Act, and its 1930s predecessor, the Federal Firearms Act of 1938? That should have been addressed by the ATF. If that was the problem, ATF inspectors would have noticed.

"We certainly don't object to the sales of guns in general, but there was a history of problems at big-box stores" in their training of employees. "It was clear that the workers selling guns had no more training than those selling vacuum cleaners," Mr. Henigan said. "But Wal-Mart has since adopted policies that exceed the minimum requirements. For example they now refuse to sell a gun until they receive word that the Brady background has been completed; the law says that authorities have three days to complete the check and if they don't comply by then the gun can be sold."
See above for the first paragraph. According to this, Wal Mart goes above and beyond what the law requires. Wal Mart is also unique, as far as I know, in that the manager walks out the door with you and hands you your gun outside of the store.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brady-law.html#delayed-response-term

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #180)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 06:39 PM

183. WalMart has a long history of corrupt practices, and should not be taken at face value

WalMart, compared to say CostCo, or other big box stores is a bad corporate citizen.

While they SAY they go above and beyond they have yet to live up to any of these agreements. They also have a shit load of lawyers they throw at legal battles. Multiple judges who have had cases involving WalMart have described their legal representation as suffeing from a corporate culture of perjury and law breaking - on the record.

They have been in trouble for corporate corruption internationally - most recently in a big scandal in Mexico, they have been prosecuted for forcing employees to work 'off the clock' - to work unpaid - to keep their jobs, they have violated every kind of law and statute and ordinance you can think of, and they made what you called a 'non-binding' agreement as part of a settlement in litigation for wrongful deaths as a result of their gun selling practices, and then failed to honor that agreement. The routinely hire illegal aliens. They engage in foreign labor practices that result in tragedies like the 120 people who died in that factory fire. They violate environmental law. If there is a law in the way of them making money - they violate it.

The list of what WalMart says, in contrast to what WalMart does is shocking, appalling and horrific.

It is not accidental that WalMart has worked to avoid prosecution and being held accountable for those actions through their ALEC corruption where they effectively buy /bribe large numbers of state and federal conservative politicians, and act in secret to draft legislation - including a lot of gun legislation.

So WalMart SAID they would go above and beyond. So what - they DON'T. Your assumptions about prosecution for FFL licenses when it comes to Wallyworld are a bit optimistic. They have a record of NOT obeying the law - and getting away with it for too long, and when finally nailed, of negotiating their way out of it by dumping a lot of money on the problem -- and then making it back by either doing the same thing, or something different.

It is not an accident or a coincidence that other stores that do not engage in the kind of practices and policies that WalMart does do not have these gun incidents. It is specific to WalMart for a reason.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #183)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 07:30 PM

184. who said I was a defender of Wal Mart

WalMart, compared to say CostCo, or other big box stores is a bad corporate citizen.
I totally agree

While they SAY they go above and beyond they have yet to live up to any of these agreements. They also have a shit load of lawyers they throw at legal battles. Multiple judges who have had cases involving WalMart have described their legal representation as suffeing from a corporate culture of perjury and law breaking - on the record.
It wouldn't surprise me, that is true of a lot of multi national corporations.

They have been in trouble for corporate corruption internationally - most recently in a big scandal in Mexico, they have been prosecuted for forcing employees to work 'off the clock' - to work unpaid - to keep their jobs, they have violated every kind of law and statute and ordinance you can think of, and they made what you called a 'non-binding' agreement as part of a settlement in litigation for wrongful deaths as a result of their gun selling practices, and then failed to honor that agreement. The routinely hire illegal aliens. They engage in foreign labor practices that result in tragedies like the 120 people who died in that factory fire. They violate environmental law. If there is a law in the way of them making money - they violate it.
I'm no defender of Wal Mart, but the wrongful death suits are bogus unless Wal Mart broke the law. If the ATF pulled the FFLs from Wal Mart, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I seriously doubt my local Wally World does as much gun business as the locally owned Ace Hardware.

The list of what WalMart says, in contrast to what WalMart does is shocking, appalling and horrific.
yeah

It is not accidental that WalMart has worked to avoid prosecution and being held accountable for those actions through their ALEC corruption where they effectively buy /bribe large numbers of state and federal conservative politicians, and act in secret to draft legislation - including a lot of gun legislation.
I agree, so does Home Depot. So do south Florida sugar farm owners.

So WalMart SAID they would go above and beyond. So what - they DON'T. Your assumptions about prosecution for FFL licenses when it comes to Wallyworld are a bit optimistic. They have a record of NOT obeying the law - and getting away with it for too long, and when finally nailed, of negotiating their way out of it by dumping a lot of money on the problem -- and then making it back by either doing the same thing, or something different.
so are you saying Wal Mart bribes local ATF agents? The Walton family bribe or pressure DoJ, or the Treasury Dept (ATF was under Treasury until 2004)?

It is not an accident or a coincidence that other stores that do not engage in the kind of practices and policies that WalMart does do not have these gun incidents. It is specific to WalMart for a reason.
I think it has more to do with their size, poor security, and locations.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #183)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:27 AM

186. Interesting goal-post moving. You may want to let the rest of us catch up.....

 

But no illegal gun-selling activity noted. So... not sure what you're trying to do/promote with this, except random rambling.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #179)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:25 AM

185. "failing to comply with legal provisions"

 

You haven't demonstrated this.

"political provisions", maybe, but that's an entirely different matter.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #163)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 06:10 PM

182. To your 3 points.

1 - I agree. If they have an issue properly selling firearms, they should not sell firearms. Period.

2 - Again I agree. If you lumped all of the Wally worlds in the US together, it would take up a land area over 4x the size of Manhattan. Super Centers alone generally generate 10,000 car trips a day, or roughly 30 million vehicles driving in and out every day. This is equivalent to about 3.7 times the population of all 5 boroughs of NYC combined. It takes over 36,000 police officers to patrol the city of NY. I think Wally world should look long and hard at their security. Personally I think that they should pay to have uniformed police officers in all of their stores 24x7.

In 2004, there were a reported 148,331 police calls across 514 Walmart stores analyzed by according to a report by Loss Prevention Magazine (pdf no longer exists online). That equates to an average of 269 calls per store. Across the US it is esemated that Wally world costs taxpayer about $77 million annually in increased police costs alone. They should be footing the bill for the security of their locations.

3 - Here is where we part ways. If you look at the incidents that were tabulated on the blog, your suggestions would have no measurable effect on Walmart at all.

For one thing, how many of the incidents listed follow your statement of "Currently, you drop your gun, or accidentally shoot someone while getting out your wallet, no problem, come back as often as you like, armed with as many guns as you like."? There were 2 incidents of neglagent discharge at Walmart. These 2 incidents are the only 2 that would most likely be effected by the policies that you suggest. Both of those two incidents, judging by the details in the article, I would have liked charges to have been filed in both cases. However, only one was arrested and will hopefully have forfited his right to own a firearm. You do not leave (evading arrest) after an incident. Period.

The vast majority of the issues listed on the website (http://newtrajectory.blogspot.com/2012/09/walmart-shootings.html) all take place in the parking lots. If you think of it like this, perhaps a better solution is to have Wally world pay for law enforcement at their sites. Walmart parking lots in the U.S. alone take up about 50 square miles, or basically a land area twice the size of Manhatten island. I think to have 24x7 uniformed police patrols in their parking lots would have a far greater effect on the crime that takes place on their property.

Personally, I'd like to see Wally world disappear. They depress the areas that they move into. They reduce retail employment by about 2.7% after they open. They lower the local retail income in some cases by almost 30%. They are a burden on taxpayers (they receive a LOT of subsidies, and get a lot of tax breaks). Overall they are irresponsible about safety in their locations. The cameras they have all over their stores are to protect them, not the shoppers. The blog that was linked in the OP failes to even mention any of the other plethora of crimes that occur at Walmarts such as: assaults, robbery, rape, car theft, vandalism, and the like. They are a crummy store, with crummy policies (from top to bottom) that are build in mostly depressed areas, that due to their size and location invite a criminal element.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #62)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 05:29 PM

69. Another non-story that has zero to do with walmart.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #62)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:02 AM

70. Sigh ...

That is as true if it involves robbing a bank inside a Walmart or robbing the firearms being sold inside one.

Except that this incident didn't involve "robbing" (we say stealing) the firearms being sold inside a Wal-Mart. It involved robbing a bank that happened to be inside a Wal-Mart, which, unless the robbers happened to purchase the guns they used from the same Wal-Mart on the spur of the moment, has fuck-all to do with Wal-Mart selling firearms.

Three young men were caught transferring stolen guns from one car to another, in a parking lot of a Walmart store in Eugene, Oregon.

Shocking. Shocking. I'm sure that could never happen in a Sears parking lot. Or a Chuck E. Cheese. Or Macdonald's.

Wal-Mart is largest volume seller of firearms nationwide because they're the largest volume seller of practically everything. I'd be willing to bet that any single Gander Mountain or Bass Pro or Cabela's outlet sells far more firearms than any Wal-Mart of corresponding size. That's because they sell mostly guns -- not socks and toilet paper and Chinese electronics. Yet you don't read of many such incidents happening at Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, or Cabela's. I wonder why? Could it be because there just aren't nearly as many of those as there are Wal-Marts?

It doesn't take a frickin' genius to figure this stuff out. C'mon people ...

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:18 AM

58. Recced your own blog spam.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:04 AM

72. Actually they average better than then rest.

There are 85,000 bank branches in the US. There are about 5,000 Walmarts in the US that have bank branches inside. This works out to Walmart having 6% of the US bank branches in their stores.

Every year in the US there are between 5,000 and 6,000 bank robberies each year. This works out to 6 to 7% of all bank branches getting robbed each year.

So, if 6 to 7% of all banks get robbed each year, it would stand to averages that 6 to 7% of the branches in Walmarts would get robbed as well. This would work out to about 300 to 350 Walmart banks getting robbed each year. So if they only get about 52 (one a week) then they are actually operating above average.

So technically, you would be safer banking at Walmart than other banks.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #72)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 03:16 AM

73. You *had* to go and derail a perfectly good rant by doing the math.

And a fine job you did of it!
<golf claps>

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #72)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 06:03 PM

134. except that most of the firearms accidents, injuries, and killings are not only aout bank robberies

and they occur equally in stores without banking facilities.

So, NO, you are not safer in a Walmart than in other stores; other big box retailers do NOT have this kind of frequency of firearms incidents. Bad calculations on your part. You need to be comparing apples to apples, not apples to astroturf.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #134)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 07:31 PM

143. they occur in the parking lots

but gun owner equals criminal is just fucking absurd.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #134)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 12:25 AM

148. "other big box retailers do NOT have this kind of frequency

 

Got the data to prove that assertion?

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 06:29 PM

80. and here is another gun incident at another WalMart

Are you noticing how frequently these happen? This is not the case at other stores:

http://walmartshootings.blogspot.com/2012/11/man-threatens-texas-walmart-checkout.html?spref=fb

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #80)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 06:39 PM

81. attention walmart shoppers.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #80)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 07:14 PM

84. And you still haven't made a connection between a common business...

 

that is an occasional target of crime (note that you haven't provided any stats that reflect them getting robbed more-frequently-per-customer/business hours/retail sales/whatevermetricyoulike than any other business) and the fact that they sell firearms.

Come back to us when you have a point, and some data to support it.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #84)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 01:07 PM

114. nothing to do with being robbed more frequently or not; you appear to be deliberately missing it

WalMart cultivates the business of pro-gunners because it is big business for them; they make a lot of money, and cooperate a lot through groups like ALEC with the NRA to promote gun sales for the gun manufacturers.

They attract, by intention, a lot of gun carriers to their stores, where other stores do not, including other so-called big box stores. I am confident you cannot find any other comparable chain of retailers who have the problems with guns that WalMart does -- a problem which puts both their employees AND their customers at much greater risk than those of other general retailers.

This is demonstrable with news coverage and police reports showing incidents on the average this year of one per week where guns are involved in some kind of dangerous incident at a WalMart, mostly accidental shootings, mixed in with other problem gun incidents.

Having a lot of people with guns has done absolutely NOTHING to reduce crime or protect anyone. Having a lot of people with guns has however endangered people every single week of the year, and in some cases, has attracted illegal gun activity. Nothing like being able to pop in and buy some ammo for those stolen guns you are transferring out in the parking lot.

What this shows is that all of you who like to carry are NOT making one of the places people carry most often any safer, you are in fact endangering people routinely, contrary to your ass-ertions about how safe you are, or how important your guns are to have around when crimes occur -- neither appears to be true.

I've already provided the data to support the frequency of dangerous gun incidents at WalMart. You have no actual data to refute that. I've also made the point quite clearly.

And a final observation -- I don't need either your invitation or permission to 'come back', least of all to my own post here. Why don't you go find some data that refutes that guns are, in comparison with other developed, civilized countries, NOT dangerous, as reflected in the homicides, injuries, threats and intimidation, and of course suicides in this country. The reality is that fewer guns, not more guns make us safer, and that by encouraging gun owners to come into their store to buy more guns and ammo, while carrying, walMart adds to those stats.

I believe I have connected the dots, and made the connection. You however have failed to refute it.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #114)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 02:37 PM

116. You've given no evidence that supports your assertions.

 

Sorry, but the connections you claim don't appear to actually exist.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #114)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 02:51 PM

117. Haven't figured out yet that 'anecdote' isn't synonymous with 'data' yet, have you?

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #117)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 05:59 PM

120. I'm waiting for any data from you

When someone tracks all of the reported gun incidents at Walmart, and compiles them, it stops being anecdotal when other stores do not welcome guns and do not have similar instances week after week.

This is not heresay; it is tracking police and news reports of documented, verifiable incidents.

Got a comeback for that? NO, you don't.

You lose the argument... unless you can show a comparable store that doesn't welcome guns but has a similar track record.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #120)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 06:16 PM

121. Do you only focus on Wal Mart or do you also

do the same with KMart, Dicks Sporting goods etc?

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #120)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 06:20 PM

122. So, what is it about Wal Mart that attracts firearms tomfoolery? nt

Last edited Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:07 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #120)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 09:59 PM

123. Nothing to do with the fact they have 4,200+ stores in the US, eh?

Do a GIS for "Walmart map" and explain why they wouldn't get this sort of thing on a weekly
basis.

Maybe you could stop shouting and handwaving long enough to show us they have more of this
sort of thing on average than does Target, Kmart, or Meijer.

Then you might have something...

BTW, that site also claims Walmart sell assault rifles- they don't.
Can we assume the rest of the site is of similar accuracy?

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #114)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 03:15 PM

119. Your post is like a frickin Henny Youngman punch line as far as data goes. Except Henny was funny.

Ummmm, stringing together a few news reports with Wal Mart in the headline, as if it was actual actionable data, makes you a laughingstock, not a seer. You have done nothing to connect Wal Mart gun sales to crime in any real or meaningful way.

We get it, really we do. You hate Wally World, and most of us don't give a shit one way or the other. Good for you, but it doesn't have a damn thing to do with whether they sell firearms and ammunition or not. At least not to anyone with a normal mental balance.

"Having a lot of people with guns has however endangered people every single week of the year". Really? How so?

Help us out here? With the crime rate, including crime with guns, continuing to drop to 40 years record lows, how is it again that so many are endangered if nothing happens?

Next thread you start, try not to be quite so fucking obtuse.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #80)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 08:41 PM

89. At least that event actually happened at Walmart.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 07:07 PM

82. Oh crap - it's ... "Posted by Baldr Odinson" - sound familiar?

I believe it's another one of our "Italian" friend MikeyB's aliases and another one of his crazy ass blogs.

(Does it bother anyone else that it's so Aryan sounding? Especially after his comments on his other blog, about "no wonder - seeing what the criminal looked like".)

More Blog Spam for another one of his Blogs. If possible this one is actually dumber than the other one and makes even less sense. Somehow Wally World is now responsible for everything that happens in their parking lots too.

I bet there are even unmarried people having sex there too Baldr, or smoking weed. Maybe you should take our flashlight and a camera out there and keep checking those cars. The local police will probably thank you for your public spirited concern when they stop in to buy cheap practice ammo by the case.

Anybody that can figure out what this character is trying so desperately and shrilly to say or claim this time, wins some of my leftover cranberry sauce Friday.

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Response to DonP (Reply #82)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 11:43 AM

112. I don't think so

That individual ("brave god" "son of Odin") is a dude from Oregon.

He claims to own mike's blog, however it doesn't seem to be the case.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #112)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 12:23 AM

124. *All* the posts are by Baldr Odinson- It's MikeyB, for sure

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #124)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 08:43 AM

125. wrong again

Not MikeB.

Baldr got the idea for tracking the WalMart shootings/gun incidents from something I wrote that was cross-posted to Mikeb's though. I wrote specifically at the time about how many mens bathroom shootings they had, where the gun guys shot the toilet out from underneath them.

My name makes it very clear who I am. You guys are not very observant. Prolific and predictable in your response, but not observant.
And you still are losing this argument.

Happy Thanksgiving gungeon readers!

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #125)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 08:35 PM

128. That's not what it says on the blog. All posts are by "Baldr Odinson"...

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #128)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 09:26 PM

129. so?

That doesn't make me MikeB.

All posts on the WalMart Shooting blog ARE by Baldr Odinson; however I started tracking WalMart shootings before he did. The two are not contradictory.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #129)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:58 PM

130. Interesting; half of the OP is undeniable-the other half, unprovable.

That a large, heavily advertised retail chain with 4000+ stores has violent crime is
not exactly surprising.

That these were somehow caused by Wally World being "gun friendly" can neither be proved nor disproved, all shouting and hjandwaving aside...

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #130)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 07:15 PM

141. Back on DU2

the website "People of Wall Mart" was banned as prejudiced. But if we couch our prejudices in the proper culture war context, it works just fine.

Wall Mart is an evil retailer (to liberal ideology).
Wall Mart sells guns.
Gun nuts like Wall Mart.
Gun nuts are violent conservative knuckle draggers.
"Those people" cause more crime at Wall Mart.
The guns that Wall Mart sells attract gun crime.
Get rid of the guns, and our political opposites will go away.

It's just another sad attempt by amateur disaster capitalists to profit from the culture wars.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #124)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 08:29 PM

127. Excellent observation...

It's a small circle for sure...maybe not the same person but the same thought(less) process.

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Response to ileus (Reply #127)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:29 PM

131. wrong again 2

Not such a small circle, nor a thoughtless process.

I'll happily go toe to toe with you on critical or analytical thinking any time, ad am confident I would win.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #131)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 04:04 PM

154. Oooooooooooooookay.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 04:40 PM

132. Oh, look........and here is another one

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/23/black-friday-walmart-shooting_n_2178908.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003&utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false#sb=12449,b=facebook

They happen so much more often than incidents at other retailers.....who are coincidentally NOT the largest retailer of firearms an firearms related merchandise....

Black Friday 2012 Walmart Shooting: 2 Shot Outside Tallahassee Retail Location

Posted: 11/23/2012 3:49 pm EST
Two people were shot outside a Walmart in Tallahassee, Fla., on Friday, police confirmed to WCTV. The victims were a man and a woman, according to witnesses. Neither have suffered life-threatening injuries, say police.

The scene was described to the Tallahassee Democrat as such:

Kollet Probst said she had finished much of her holiday shopping when she returned to the Walmart on Apalachee Parkway to make a return. She said she was waiting in the customer service department when a crowd of people came running into the store from the parking lot. Shots started going off, and customers ducked for cover. "Everybody started trying to find a place to hide," she said.

While police have not yet commented on the cause of the incident, witnesses at the scene told WCTV that "two couples were arguing and one of the men stared firing," before fleeing the scene in his car.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #132)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 06:11 PM

135. Once again you conflate 'number' and 'rate'

They happen so much more often than incidents at other retailers.....who are coincidentally NOT the largest retailer of firearms an firearms related merchandise....


Walmart is the largest retailer in the United States, period. I daresay they'll also have more shoplifting arrests than any other retailer. Would that prove that their customers are more
sticky-fingered than Target's or Kmarts- or just that they have more shoplifters?

This is like citing Mickey D's for being especially bad about selling fatty restaurant foods without noting that they're also the largest restaurant chain. It's not as if Burger King and Wendy's are any healthier,
there are simply fewer of them.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #132)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 07:12 PM

139. all Wal Marts combined?

sell more guns than all other Dicks, Cabelas, etc, and local gun stores? I doubt any individual Wally World sells that many guns. My local Ace Hardware sells more guns and ammo than our local Wal Mart.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 05:22 PM

133. Leaps of logical faith.

Making the connection, that because Walmart sells firearms, that they are somehow more prone to violence is absurd on its face.

From post 120:"When someone tracks all of the reported gun incidents at Walmart, and compiles them, it stops being anecdotal when other stores do not welcome guns and do not have similar instances week after week."

Only 50% of US Walmarts sell firarms. However this list is a compilation of all Walmarts, not just the ones that sell firearms. So the blog is attributing an instance at lets say a Walmart in sourthern CA where they do not sell firearms the the fact that another Walmart 400 miles away sells firearms? This is silly.

Also the anecdotal nature of the whole this is absurd as well. If you were to look at the rate according to your count which is about 1 a week you would have an incident rate of 0.0104 per Walmart store.

If you take assaults, shoplifting, etc... out of the picture and only look at robberies, the convienience store industry has a rate up to 0.20 and they do not sell guns. This is 19 times the rate that this anecdoatal blog shows. Without including any of the other crimes that can take place at a c-store.

It is a leap of logic where one would deduce that because Walmart sells guns, they get robbed, people get assaulted, vehicles get stolen, police shoot at drug suspects, gang shootings, people commit suicide, ect...

There are 5000 Walmarts in the US. The odds are there that sooner or later something bad will happen at one. However I will give you this: Walmart sells rifles and this is why rifles have been stolen from Walmart.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #133)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 06:12 PM

136. No other comparable retailer

dealing in clothing, groceries, electronics, etc. is as welcoming of armed customers as WalMart is -- which is part of their encouragement to customers to buy guns, ammo, and related equipment.

Come on in, wear your gun, buy something gun related.

Other stores do not comparably market, and do not encourage or welcome people carrying the way Walmart does as a marketing strategy. It has to be apples to apples comparison -- and a convenience store just doesn't equate. They are not similar.

You can bemoan it all you want as anecdotal, but when someone starts documenting a shooting incident a week, week after week, and they are not occurring at similar retailers, there is a distinct problem.

More than that, given the frequency of people who are armed in Walmart, the claim for people to conceal or open carry that it will reduce crime, and allow JoeQ average citizen to act long before law enforcement can arrive has not proven to be true.

It is Joe Q average who IS the problem, not the solution.

Keep trying; you might succeed at logic and analysis if you persist long enough.

More people shoot and are shot at Walmart than at Target, (ironically) or other similar big box stores that do not sell guns on the scale that WalMart does and that do not encourage people to be armed in their stores.

You have yet to show me any chain of stores that has comparable problems with firearms.

It isn't that hard to search for them; search engines do the heavy lifting for you.

Hint - there AREN'T ANY.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #136)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 06:29 PM

137. Math is not your friend- this is "Concealed Carry Killers' redux...

http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

The numbers sound terrible- until one realizes that there are +/- 8 million permit holders in the US...

Another DUer did the math and figured out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11729219

"Bloomberg's group over 90x more likely to be convicted of crime than TX CHL holders."

http://www.stopillegalmayors.com/

More people shoot and are shot at Walmart than at Target, (ironically) or other similar big box stores that do not sell guns on the scale that WalMart does and that do not encourage people to be armed in their stores.

You have yet to show me any chain of stores that has comparable problems with firearms.


And you have yet to show us why the largest retail chain extant wouldn't
also have more total crime than any other chain.

Come back when you realize that "number" is NOT synonymous with "rate"...

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #137)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 06:44 PM

138. even WalMart admits they have a problem

The part where WalMart has a problem with gun violence is near the end, but the whole thing is worth watching.

Of all the incidents I've seen so far, in the time that first I, and then Baldr began tracking these, I have not so far seen a single case where someone carrying shot a bad guy committing a crime, or used a firearm they were carrying to prevent a crime.



You must be a fan of Republican math, where ideology is all that matters, and numbers don't really count for much.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #138)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 07:15 PM

140. but they refuse to do anything because it will not provide security

Target, Kmart, Macys also allow guns, but they don't have the problems. None of these have anything to do with CCW.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #138)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:30 PM

145. They're the largest retailer in the US, they're going to have more crime than any other chain.

And I note you've moved the



-you've gone from complaining about gun crime
at Wally World to kvetching about a lack of defensive gun uses:

Of all the incidents I've seen so far, in the time that first I, and then Baldr began tracking these, I have not so far seen a single case where someone carrying shot a bad guy committing a crime, or used a firearm they were carrying to prevent a crime.


I've got news for you- people with gun permits aren't volunteer cops or unpaid mall ninjas.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #136)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 07:29 PM

142. you are not actually looking at the cause

You hate Wal Mart and you hate guns, so you look for examples to prove your preconceived opinion and ignore all other factors.
dealing in clothing, groceries, electronics, etc. is as welcoming of armed customers as WalMart is -- which is part of their encouragement to customers to buy guns, ammo, and related equipment. Come on in, wear your gun, buy something gun related.
so why don't Dicks, Cabelas, Bass Pro have these problems? They specialize in guns and sporting goods.

Other stores do not comparably market, and do not encourage or welcome people carrying the way Walmart does as a marketing strategy. It has to be apples to apples comparison -- and a convenience store just doesn't equate. They are not similar.
completly untrue. Wal Mart does not encourage. The others do not discourage. Kmart sells the same stuff. Target is a Macys wantabe.

You can bemoan it all you want as anecdotal, but when someone starts documenting a shooting incident a week, week after week, and they are not occurring at similar retailers, there is a distinct problem.

More than that, given the frequency of people who are armed in Walmart, the claim for people to conceal or open carry that it will reduce crime, and allow JoeQ average citizen to act long before law enforcement can arrive has not proven to be true.

It is Joe Q average who IS the problem, not the solution.
JoeQ CCW do not pretend to be cops. JoeQ are not the ones committing robberies. Using your logic, all gun owners are criminals or soon to be criminals. That broad brush not only hits good people left and right, but also include: Justice Kagan, Jerry Brown, Ed Shultz, Ted Strickland, Ron Kuby, Brian Schweitzer

More people shoot and are shot at Walmart than at Target, (ironically) or other similar big box stores that do not sell guns on the scale that WalMart does and that do not encourage people to be armed in their stores.
Do you have any evidence that Wal Mart encourages to be armed more than anyone else? How about store and parking lot security? How many of these robberies etc are after midnight when comparable stores are closed? Only Wal Mart is open 24 hours a day.

You have yet to show me any chain of stores that has comparable problems with firearms.
You won't find any with comparable with non gun violent crimes either. Wal Mart leads in that because of poor security an being open 24 hours.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #136)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 08:41 PM

144. No other comparable retailer?

Costco is a comparable big box retailer. They sell food, general merchandise, clothing, electronics, etc... However, they have a zero guns policy.

Since you want to compare apples to apples I will go back to my post #133 where I stated "If you were to look at the rate according to your count which is about 1 a week you would have an incident rate of 0.0104 per Walmart store."

The problem is, that Costco would have an incident rate of 0.0113 per Costco store.

The fact that Walmart sells guns has nothing to do with firearm issues in their stores. They have money so they get robbed, they have large parking lots for criminals to prey on victims, just the same as Costco does.

Showing my work:
Costco Stores in US: 442 according to their wiki.
Quick Google search found 5 instances of firearm related incidents.
http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2012/nov/01/frisco-police-seek-costco-robbery-suspect-gun/
http://sandysprings.patch.com/articles/thief-returns-to-costco-with-gun-in-backpack-arrested
http://www.northcoastoregon.com/2012/01/31/warrenton-ask-for-help-in-costco-parking-lot-armed-robbery-investigation/
http://www.examiner.com/article/costco-suffers-armed-robbery-attempt
http://www.registerguard.com/web/news/cityregion/29012046-41/flynn-mckee-police-eugene-prison.html.csp

I'm sure there are more incidents, but 5 was sufficient. But at the end of the day, both the Walmart examples and Costco examples are nothing but anecdotal and the plural of anecdote does not equal a statistic, but since you insisted, I provided.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #144)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:33 PM

146. Costco isn't even close

Nice Try, Glassunion. Shots weren't fired in any of the Costco cases you sited. One isn't even from this year. Whereas there have been at least 49 shootings at Walmarts so far this year, NOT COUNTING armed robberies, stolen guns, or threats that didn't have shots fired. Here's a full listing of those 49 shootings, by the way:
http://newtrajectory.blogspot.com/2012/09/walmart-shootings.html

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Response to Baldr Odinson (Reply #146)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:37 PM

147. Welcome to DU and I hope you enjoy the site.

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Response to Baldr Odinson (Reply #146)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 02:29 AM

149. No, not even close ...

Walmart has 4591 stores in the US, if you count Sam's Club (3971 if you don't). How many Costcos are there? Shall we talk rates?

I notice that most of the shooting incidents you list in your blog take place in the Walmart parking lots. Thus they could have happened even if corporate policy forbade firearms in the stores. The parking lot at my local Walmart serves three businesses; it is only the "Walmart parking lot" by virtue of the fact that Walmart is the largest and best-known of the three. But hey, if it fits your Prohibitionist agenda to paint Walmart as a cesspool of criminal violence because they have the audacity to sell firearms, why let a few inconvenient facts get in your way?

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #149)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:35 AM

193. Not an excuse

And yet, Walmart controls those parking lots, too. If a shooting happens in your driveway, do you wipe your hands of it and say it doesn't count as your property? I don't think so.

Walmart did a study a few years ago and found that 85% of shootings and other acts of violence on their property were in their parking lot. They found that adding a single security guard to patrol the parking lots took the number down to zero. And yet, they squashed the study and did nothing to change their policies.

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Response to Baldr Odinson (Reply #193)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:31 AM

198. I actually agree with you on this

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Response to Baldr Odinson (Reply #146)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 05:34 PM

155. 49 shootings at 4200+ Walmarts. That's about 1 for every 85 Walmarts.

Those are some real hotbeds of crime you've found there...

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #136)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 03:15 AM

150. Comparable retailers?

There are no retailers comparable to Walmart. They are the largest retailer in the world. Their stores are everywhere, including poverty-stricken areas where they are the only game in town. In many towns Walmart is most emphatically where the money is and where the action is. It stands to reason that it will be a magnet for crime and the concomitant violence.

The notion that someone would choose to rob a bank in Walmart because Walmart sells firearms is insupportable. I can't even imagine the chain of reasoning that would lead to such a conclusion. Equally ludicrous is the notion that Walmart encourages open carry or is gun-friendly in any way beyond the bare fact that they sell firearms. If Walmart is particularly gun-friendly, then Starbuck's must be the freakin' NRA.

I have bought firearms in Walmart stores in the past. The process was excruciatingly slow and hostile. I was instructed in the proper completion of Form 4473 as if I were a not-too-bright recruit entering boot camp. Perhaps you have heard of the "Walmart Walk," sometimes called the "Walk of Shame," in which the sporting goods manager accompanies you to the parking lot, where he/she hands you the firearm that you could not be trusted to possess within the store. I don't know where you get these fantasies of Walmart as a gun-owner's paradise, but fantasies they are.

Other stores don't "comparably" market? Have you been to a Gander Mountain lately? How about a rural convenience store that sells camo caps, gun magazines, and hunting knives?

If we want to pick on Walmart, go after their labor practices. Then you'd have a valid point, unlike the fuzzy classist nonsense you're spouting here.

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #150)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:31 AM

192. Nice try, but off the mark.

"Gun owner's paradise"? No, it certainly isn't, but the deaths are unrefutable nonetheless. "Walmart Walk," nice. I hadn't heard that one. Glad to hear it.

And Starbucks doesn't sell guns, duh. Nice try.

I like your hypothesis that the shootings are somehow only restricted to "poverty-stricken areas where they are the only game in town" -- except that isn't the case. Read the articles there and you will see that this isn't true. But go ahead and tell yourself that so you feel better about Walmart stores and gun violence in general.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #136)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 10:09 AM

152. Yours is the rawest form of prohibitionist animosity...

"It is Joe Q Average who IS the problem..."

There you have it, dear readers: Prohibitionists demonize the thing, practice or status so they can "legitimately" demonize and hate vast numbers of people.

It's that obvious, and that repeated, in our history.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #136)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 07:58 PM

207. What does WM do to encourage concealed/open carry in their stores?

Be specific. I regularly go to WM (The $1 perscriptions are great for a person like me who takes several meds.) and haven't seen any encouragement to carry a gun. Neither have I seen any encouragement either. It is simply a non-issue.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:50 PM

156. I want to help

 

Here is another sad occurrence in a walmart parking lot. There was no GUN involved does that make a difference to you? or do you just post GUN deaths? This shoplifter died in a ” physical altercation” is this OK or do you need to die by GUN for you to post? This person did not deserve to die over some piece of shit plastic products.
http://fox4kc.com/2012/11/25/alleged-shoplifter-dies-after-being-caught-by-walmart-employees/

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #157)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:19 PM

158. In the artical

 

it states "Cribbs said shoppers acted like "savages."
We hear about this kind of thing every year but it is not talked about much or usually posted about unless there was a GUN involved. If the walmart employee was shot it would have been a fucking headline with a hundred posts. Sad indeed.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #157)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:10 PM

160. there are the other non-gun killings at WalMarts

Like the person this year who was an alleged shoplifter that was killed by an apparently overly aggressive security person on their staff.

The trampling kind of incident tends to be common only to specific sales.

The shooting/ gun incidents at WalMarts tend to occur consistently, not from some kind of sales frenzy.

Perhaps their customer base as well as their business model contribute to that. When I look at the thousands of photos of WalMart shoppers on this site, and then consider that many of them might very well be openly or concealed gun carriers, it has to give any reasonable person pause.

http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #160)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 01:22 PM

162. how classist of you

that said, how many of those photos are staged? Out of the times I have been in different Wal Marts, I have seen zero people like that.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #160)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 02:13 PM

175. 4-2 to leave this post. Thread in Meta...

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:57 PM

187. Here is the synopsis

1. WalMart has an unusually high number of bad gun incidents -- people or property being shot, either deliberately or accidentally, or other related incidents in which guns are a prominent factor. Other comparable big box stores do NOT have this problem, noting remotely like the same frequency or kind of gun related or involved incidents.

2. WalMart has had multiple law suits, including wrongful death law suits, relating to their NOT complying with regulations pertaining to gun sales. This covers the full range from violating local ordinances or agreements that were conditional to their opening and operation, like the Indiana news item I just posted, but also state and federal. They put a lot of money into negotiating their way out of those, but other general department store big box retailers do not have the same frequency of these legal violation problems relating to sales practices of guns and ammo. WalMart has also voluntarily, as part of civil suit settlements, made agreements that they violated. That these were voluntary or non-binding does not change that those settlements occurred in part on the basis of those agreements, or that Walmart was wrong and bad to violate them. It is evidence that they do not operate in good faith or live up to their commitments, if it means they can make a few bucks. That does not reflect well on WalMart as a retailer, or as a good corporate citizen.

3. There seems to me to be a correlation to the kind of gun-related problems and the general scoff-law / lax compliance culture that is specific to WalMart, and is reflected in their OTHER legal compliance failures in which they clearly operate as bad corporate citizens.

So far, I haven't seen anyone here refute that there is a high incidence of events, like accidental gun discharges in men's rooms where concealed or open carriers drop trou and drop their guns at the same time, or have accidental gun discharge while trying to reach for their wallets at the checkout, or any of the other incidents that are the pedestrian equivalent of road rage, etc.

WalMart makes a lot of money off of guns - I can post the references for that, if you like; WalMart has spent a lot of money through ALEC crafting legislation that helps them sell more guns and ammo, and WalMart appears to try to retail to customers without regard or concern for the safety of their employees or other customers, or the legality of their gun ownership or purchase.

If you require me to demonstrate to you that WalMart will cut any corner, including violate laws, to make a buck, I would be happy to oblige, but it is pretty common knowledge. So long as you can not refute that violating laws at all levels is a significant problem with how WalMart operates as a corporation, and you cannot demonstrate that there is NOT a problem with the frequency of gun incidents and accidents at Walmart stores, or that other stores that are similar have similar problems, I have made my point.

No moving goal posts, no tricks, and I have provided documentation for my assertions. I suggest gun guys that you might want to reconsider if retailers like WalMart or the people who are responsible for these accidents and incidents are who you want on 'your side'. Rather, if you wish to claim being BOTH safe and law abiding, then maybe it is time for you also to be critical of the sales practices and scoff-law corporate policies of WalMart regarding guns.

Being critical of the incidents and practices of WalMart, and a specific segment of their customers is not an attack on all gun carriers, or all gun sellers. It is perhaps more instructive that you seem to have a reflexive defensive reaction that appears to be closed minded to such an issue, and that is stronger than your concern for promoting safe, legal guns - both in ownership/purchase, and carrying. Rather you seem to regard someone as an enemy or opposition, even when they are right.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #187)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:38 AM

194. Well said!

!

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #190)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:02 PM

191. Color me confused...

The shoplifter was shot by an off duty peace officer.
Are you saying he was there because walmart sells guns, or should LEOs and related careers not go to walmart, or that if walmart did not sell guns the person would not have shoplifted??

Can you explain how this incident relates to your OP premise?

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #191)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:22 PM

199. Do YOU think this guy, whether a real cop or a rent a cop, should be shooting shoplifters?

One of the elements that I have offered here for debate -- real debate, not the knee-jerk response -- is that WalMart has more people armed with guns. SOME of them are law abiding legally carrying; but some of those are among the stats for bad gun incidents, like accidental firings which destroy men's room toilets or drop them, causing them to go off, injuring other shoppers. SOME are not lawful owners or carriers.

The lax sales policies -- which have been documented repeatedly over decades -- and the deliberate sales policy to sell as many guns as possible to enhance their profits, regardless of safety (and legality) creates a uniquely risky situation at WalMart for shoppers and for sales and other personnel - including security guards.

I'm sure you would agree that we can point to examples of cops making some outrageously bad decisions, on occasion with or without firearms involved, although they tend to be and should be better than less-trained and less-experienced rent-a-cops?

BECAUSE Walmart has more incidents, more armed shoppers, more people illegally carrying than other retailers and because it attracts more people hoping to be able to purchase either products not sold elsewhere in the area (like the Indiana example, where specific weapons were not allowed) from lax sales people, or to shop lift those items, I would argue that this off-duty cop expected and anticipated a greater level of danger in apprehending a shoplifter, and therefore was more likely to use excessive force - in this case SHOOTING.

While I'm sure you will object to this uncomfortable fact, it is also true that there are lawful gun carriers who engage in acts of road-rage style gun intimidation outside their vehicles as well as inside them, when confronted by something that upsets them.

A perfect example was this guy, who resorted to his gun, not AT a Walmart, but while driving from one WalMart to another, for example - this could as easily have occurred in a WalMart parking lot because of who WalMart intentionally attracts to their stores.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/27/tennessee-man-shoots-black-friday-shoppers-car/1730475/

9:01PM EST November 27. 2012 - A Tennessee man rushing to Walmart before dawn on Black Friday was arrested for allegedly shooting at another motorist because she "wouldn't get out of my way."


According to the arrest report, Poe said he had waited in line for five hours at the Clinton Walmart to buy his grandson a stereo that was on sale, but the store sold out before he could get one. Just before 5 a.m., he decided to race to another Walmart.

Sgt. Michael Butcher, of the nearby Union County Sheriff's Department, said he saw the suspect swerving behind his wife's vehicle before tailgating it, driving beside and then firing a shot, apparently from a 40-caliber semiautomatic pistol.


Yes, this woman in the suspected shop lifting incident drove over the off-duty officer's foot, but it could easily be argued that was accidental, and as much the fault of the cop as the driver, and therefore did NOT warrant his shooting her or the car. People who work at WalMarts are well aware of their problems with guns, and have reasonable expectations and fear as a result -- and in this case that resulted in an employee having a dangerous gun incident.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #199)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:30 PM

200. Seriously -- what more proof do you need here?

We have the example of the Indiana WalMart selling guns they were not supposed to sell, ammo they were not supposed to sell, for reasons of public safety. You can argue all you want, but the fact is, it was just one more example, of a long line of similar examples. Further the article showed that Walmart has a problem with shoplifting that ammo (and they have a similar problem with firearms) because they frequently do not properly secure those items as promised. That attracts, arguably a bad selection of people interested in guns to their stores.

The frequency of gun incidents, some from legal carriers, some not, documents the frequency of people being armed in WalMart stores compared to a lack of those kinds of incidents in other 'big box' retailers. It demonstrates beyond any rebuttal that there is a safety issue here from those gun carriers.

I would add to that the number of dangerously mentally ill shooters who appear to rely on WalMart, like Jarrod Loughner, and like the guy with mental illness issues caught recently before he could shoot up a theater, who had planned a couple of years before to shoot up a Walmart, because he reasoned, when he ran out of ammo, he could easily access more to continue shooting at that store because of the easily accessible ammo and guns.

And then we have the guy who got a lot crazy on black Friday, shooting at a woman as he raced between WalMarts. If that isn't an example of the problem shoppers with guns who frequent Walmart, I don't know what is. It would be one thing if he were an isolated incident, but he is not.

Wallyworld has a problem, and it is one of their own making.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #200)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:45 PM

202. it had nothing to do with public safety

We have the example of the Indiana WalMart selling guns they were not supposed to sell, ammo they were not supposed to sell, for reasons of public safety.
besides, I would laugh my ass off if some politician gave such misinformed rant. It was a public relations stunt for both sides, no more no less.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #199)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:32 PM

201. for example?

The lax sales policies -- which have been documented repeatedly over decades -- and the deliberate sales policy to sell as many guns as possible to enhance their profits, regardless of safety (and legality) creates a uniquely risky situation at WalMart for shoppers and for sales and other personnel - including security guards.

What evidence do you have of Wal Mart violating federal or local laws? If you do, call the ATF hotline
http://www.atf.gov/contact/hotlines/
What do they do that Dicks or Gander Mountain doesn't do?

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #201)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:48 PM

203. they have a long list of law suits that they have settled, admitting guilt - notably the examples I

provided of the settlement they reneged on with the Brady campaign, and the example I provided of the Indiana store that violated their agreement with a municipality.

If you really are so gullible as to believe that simply calling a hot line on Walmart would be all it takes, you're a fool.

Walmart in ALL the areas they violate the law - and there are many - has perfected the art of violating the law. Sometimes they get away with it, lots of times they have a lot of lawyers who settle, with the promise of not having further infractions.....until they have further infractions. EVERY damned time they claim that those infractions do not reflect their policies -- like the bribery scandal in Mexico for example. Except that increasingly it is obvious from whistle blowers that it is EXACTLY their policy.

Here's what I predict will happen in Indiana. The next round of elections for the city council, Walmart will fund candidates who are Walmart friendly who will NOT enforce that agreement. In the interim, they will half-heartedly sort of go through the motions of improving their security for guns and ammo, and maybe be a little more careful of who they have staffing that area, making sure they are of legal age to sell, know what checks they are supposed to do, etc.

But only for a little while, when they will return to their earlier practice that violated their agreement. They want to sell as many guns and as much ammo as possible, and the law be damned if someone who shouldn't either does the selling or the buying, so long as the sales happen.

In federal cases, they are notorious for dragging out cases so that they deal with lots of changes over time in who the prosecutor is, as well as changes in venue to judges more favorable to them, until they can wear down prosecutors to settle. They are even better at that when it comes to civil suits for wrongful death.

Other sellers are much more careful in how they train their staff for things like doing NICS checks, maintain better security for firearms and ammo, and are much more careful about abiding by laws and regulations at all levels. They do NOT have the rate of law suits anything remotely like those that Walmart does. Nor do they have the incidents with firearms. Their business models and corporate culture do not involve the kind of conduct that Walmart engages in, and they do not promote people who engage in it - as Walmart does.

If you believe otherwise, write something that shows Dicks or Gander Mountain has anything even remotely like this kind of incidence with guns in their stores, or law suits relating to guns. Since they don't, why don't YOU try to explain why?

One of the next posts I'm working on for the gungeon is an actual list of the gun-related law suits that I can find for Walmart.

You can be pro-gun, and still condemn these Walmart gun incidents and their sales practices. That you don't shows that you are not really all that concerned with safety or lawful conduct when it comes to guns.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #203)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 01:12 PM

205. law suits are about money

they settled because it is cheaper.
If you really are so gullible as to believe that simply calling a hot line on Walmart would be all it takes, you're a fool.
We are talking about criminal law, not some stupid agreement.

Here's what I predict will happen in Indiana. The next round of elections for the city council, Walmart will fund candidates who are Walmart friendly who will NOT enforce that agreement. In the interim, they will half-heartedly sort of go through the motions of improving their security for guns and ammo, and maybe be a little more careful of who they have staffing that area, making sure they are of legal age to sell, know what checks they are supposed to do, etc.
Under aged gun clerks, that violates federal criminal law. When handguns are shipped via UPS, they are required to label the box so that no one under 21 touches the box.

We are not talking about civil law suits with the EPA, we are talking about criminal law. Any violation of the Gun Control Act, no matter how minor, is punishable by up to ten years in federal prison and loss of that stores FFL. Unless they are convicted of violating the law, the wrongful death suits are bogus in my opinion.
If Wal Mart is violating federal or state laws, which includes the terms of their FFL, the ATF should yank their license and send people to jail. If you think Wal Mart is buying off ATF inspectors, then bring it to Holder's attention. If Ace Hardware down the street did anything like Wal Mart is accused of, he would lose his FFL and be in prison. As far as nonbinding agreements with misinformed politicians, that's tacky but not illegal. I do know that when the local Wal Mart changed locations, the ATF did not renew their FFL

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #205)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 07:37 PM

206. there are still settlement

law suits are only about money as a kind of penalty to redress something someone did wrong; some of the law suits were civil suits for wrongful deaths relating to regulatory violations.

So YES, we ARE talking about BOTH civil suits and criminal suits --- or did you think that criminal suits didn't involve fines and other penalties? Of course they do.

WalMart is NOT ACE hardware, Walmart is so large they operate as a law unto themselves - or try to. The ATF has been hugely unsuccessful in regulating certain problem FFLs -- are YOU that naive?

http://content.thirdway.org/publications/11/AGS_Report_-_Selling_Crime_-_High_Crime_Gun_Stores_Fuel_Criminals.pdf

"A small number of the nation’s 80,000 gun dealers are flooding America’s streets
with crime guns – yet Washington rarely investigates, shuts down or prosecutes
most of these high-crime dealers.
In the past, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has shown that
approximately 1% of the nation’s gun stores are the source of 57% of the firearms
traced to crimes. Yet ATF has never released the names of the most egregious stores –
the stores that habitually sell guns that are later used in crimes. This report is the first
ever to identify the nation’s high crime gun stores, disclosing the top 120 high crime
gun dealers across 22 states – using ATF data from 1996-2000, the most recent data
available. It also reveals, for the first time publicly, the ATF’s track record in auditing
these dealers (from 2000 to 2003) and details the violations committed by these
high crime dealers.


When someone in these smaller operations finally IS penalized for illegal gun sales, and has to give up their FFL for one of these sellers, the ownership and FFL usually end up in the name of a family member. You think, given the greater resources and
sophistication, not to mention high priced legal talent, that WalMart can't do as well or better?

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #206)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 08:04 PM

208. there doesn't have to be wrong doing in a civil suit

sometimes it is easier to pay to settle out of court than it is to make them prove it, especially since civil suits have such a low burden of proof.
They may have been purchased from those stores by a legitimate buyer only to be stolen years later. The average time from the last FFL, including used ones from secondary markets, are 11 years.
http://www.atf.gov/statistics/trace-data/
For the most part, the paper details problems with enforcement, hiring enough inspectors, and getting US attorneys off their asses. None of that has anything to do with passing new laws.

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Response to Dog Gone at Penigma (Reply #199)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 01:09 PM

204. That I can fully agree with

LEO or not, he was in no way justified in shooting. I will maintain he is not in the same category as the moron who shoots his seat out while taking a crap.

And yes, there are bad apples who will slip through. Any screening we can imagine will not be perfect. Yet as we cannot punish the person who 'looks like' they might shop lift, we cannot remove rights from someone who 'looks like' they may abuse them. We still need to show why they should have rights limited.

Now I agree Walmart is in the pond scum of corporations but I do not think their selling guns has very much to do with their crime issues. The appeal to the demographic of the average criminal makes WM a familiar place. The broad spectrum and numbers of shoppers present at any time enhances anonymity both inside and the parking lot.

Locally WM doesn't sell guns- I do not know what there crime rate is. Cub Foods has a high incidence of crime but every one has a small bank branch inside and the same attractants for criminals as WM.

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