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Wed Nov 7, 2012, 03:47 PM

Two questions for those who support another assault weapons ban ...

1) What would be the most positive results from passing such a law?

2) How would you make it better and more effective than the previous assault weapons ban which was allowed to sunset in 2004?

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Arrow 30 replies Author Time Post
Reply Two questions for those who support another assault weapons ban ... (Original post)
spin Nov 2012 OP
jenw2 Nov 2012 #1
spin Nov 2012 #5
Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #11
GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #12
Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #20
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #21
Pacafishmate Nov 2012 #27
aikoaiko Nov 2012 #29
petronius Nov 2012 #2
spin Nov 2012 #6
ileus Nov 2012 #3
Pacafishmate Nov 2012 #28
ileus Nov 2012 #30
1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #4
ManiacJoe Nov 2012 #7
1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #9
ManiacJoe Nov 2012 #15
spin Nov 2012 #18
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #22
friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #8
Clames Nov 2012 #10
trouble.smith Nov 2012 #14
4th law of robotics Nov 2012 #26
Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2012 #13
spin Nov 2012 #16
discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2012 #17
spin Nov 2012 #19
Remmah2 Nov 2012 #23
Heliman Nov 2012 #24
glacierbay Nov 2012 #25

Response to spin (Original post)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 03:48 PM

1. Fewer people murdered

 

Seriously, are you being sarcastic by even asking the question?

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Response to jenw2 (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 03:59 PM

5. No, I am not being sarcastic. ...

I am looking for some honest input.

Trying to pass another assault weapons ban at this time, considering the current makeup of Congress, is a very lofty goal and is likely impossible. It is my opinion that far more might be accomplished by trying to improve existing federal firearms law which would be easier to achieve.

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Response to jenw2 (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:48 PM

11. How?

Or, to be more detailed:

How will removing assault weapons from the streets result in fewer people murdered?

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Response to jenw2 (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:49 PM

12. The previous AWB did not accomplish that.

What makes you think a renewal of it would be any different?

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Response to jenw2 (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 08:04 AM

20. Support your contention with data. It's there. Find it.

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Response to jenw2 (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 08:28 AM

21. About 300 every year.

 

Rifles of all kinds, let alone "assault rifles", only kill about 300 people every year through homicide. This is about half as many people as are murdered each year using hands and feet.

There is no rifle crime problem in this country. Even the President mentioned this fact during his debate with Romney. The most common firearm used for crime is the handgun, because it is concealable.

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Response to jenw2 (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 01:03 PM

27. Prove that any firearms ban has ever lead to "fewer people murdered".

 

You can't because the two ( firearms policy and murder rate) are not directly correlated. It has more to do with the level of violence present in a country or culture rather than whether guns are obtainable. People who want to murder don't just decide to quit if their first idea fails. But you knew all of this already. You just want to legislate based on your feeling that guns are icky and if I don't need one, no one else does either.

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Response to jenw2 (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 01:20 PM

29. Do you really think someone intent on committing violence with a firearm


will not do so because they can't do it with a specific weapon?

There are hundreds of other firearms that are just as lethal.

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Response to spin (Original post)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 03:49 PM

2. I would have thought that one of those questions should be:

"How would you define/identify an 'assault weapon' for the purpose of a ban?"

But I guess that's part of #2...

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Response to petronius (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:06 PM

6. Yes. A new definition of exactly what an assault weapon is would fit into question #2. (n/t)

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Response to spin (Original post)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 03:51 PM

3. I'll play along : it would make me feel better knowing the first step was in place.

I may know that the last one was useless, but this one could be a stepping stone.

Today AWB
Tomorrow Conceal carry elimination
The next day complete handgun ban
ect ect ect...

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Response to ileus (Reply #3)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 01:05 PM

28. So you are volunteering to go around collecting the banned firearms?

 

It would be wise to make your funeral arrangements in advance.

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Response to Pacafishmate (Reply #28)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 08:32 PM

30. Naw man, I'll let grabbers volunteer for that job.

Myself I'll keep mine...I like them.

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Response to spin (Original post)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 03:54 PM

4. Okay, and against my better judgment ...

1) What would be the most positive results from passing such a law?


Fewer assualt weapons on the streets.

2) How would you make it better and more effective than the previous assault weapons ban which was allowed to sunset in 2004?


No knowing what the ban that sunsetted in 2004, I can't say how to make it better or more effective, other than to say more enforcement efforts.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:26 PM

7. The obvious follow-up question to #1:

What makes "assault weapons" special that they need extra regulation that other guns do not need?

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:44 PM

9. Again, against my better judgment ...

I would not lose a minute of sleep if all fire-arms were banned for civilians, with the possible exception of fire-arms used for hunt food that is eaten.

But why should assault weapons get "special" treatment? Because it is politically possible.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #9)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 06:10 PM

15. Have to give you points for honesty.

However, the usual definitions of "assault weapon" overlap with "fire-arms used for hunt food that is eaten".

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #9)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 07:52 PM

18. I believe that at this time another assault weapons ban is politically impossible. ...

For one thing it would never pass the Republican controlled house. An assault weapons ban would be difficult to pass in the Senate as many Democratic Senators come from gun friendly areas of our nation and voting for it would simply be political suicide. The current leader of the Senate, Harry Reid, has expressed little interest in passing this law.


Reid says he has no plans to bring gun bill to Senate floor
By Alexander Bolton - 07/24/12 02:22 PM ET

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) said Tuesday that he does not plan any action on gun control despite calls to pass an assault weapons ban and other measures.

***snip***

Reid, who received a "B" rating from the National Rifle Association in 2010, rebuffed a reporter’s question about extended ammo clip.

***snip***

“You guys, I am not going to be here with each of you debating gun control,” he said. “I’ve told you my feeling on that.”

Reid, who was thought to be in the running for an NRA endorsement during his last election, disagrees with many liberals in his party on gun regulation.
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/239805-reid-says-he-has-no-plans-to-bring-gun-legislation-to-senate-floor


While few people outside of the gun culture realize this, rifles that fit under the definition of assault weapons ARE used for hunting.

Sporting ARs
by Dick Metcalf • January 3, 2011

Virtually every type of centerfire sporting rifle in existence started off as a military weapon. The classic lever-action deer gun, long the most popular type of hunting rifle in America, began as the Henry Rifle of the Civil War era, designed to bring rapid fire against the enemy. The lever-action was succeeded in universal popularity by the bolt-action–the standard hunting rifle of today–which we owe to Paul Mauser’s classic battle-rifle design.

***snip***

Technically speaking, it makes all the sense in the world that proven military rifle designs should be inherently appropriate for hunting use. All successful military rifles are specifically designed for rugged, reliable function and durability under extreme conditions, which translates automatically into use under even the most extreme field-hunting use. They’re also designed for reasonable weight, portability and ease of fast handling by people who may be carrying other heavy gear and wearing bulky clothing. They have an inherent capability for follow-up shots, and they must be deadly accurate against targets of the same basic dimensions and at the same distances typically encountered by hunters.

The AR in particular is a superb hunting design, due primarily to its lightweight synthetic and corrosion-resistant alloy construction. And, it’s surprisingly accurate, due primarily to the fact it’s an “assembled” gun rather than a “fitted” gun. Its major components essentially snap together. Unlike a traditional bolt-action rifle, which generally requires close-tolerance, hand-work receiver/barrel mating and precise bedding into the stock for maximum accuracy and consistency, a hunting-grade (or even competition-grade) AR can readily be assembled from modular components literally on a kitchen table, by anybody with a modicum of ability to use relatively simple hand tools. Likewise, a service-grade “standard” AR15 can readily be brought up to minute-of-angle performance by selective replacement of key modular elements with match-grade parts. And, once tuned, an AR stays that way, due to the fact that its entirely nonorganic components (nonwood) are not susceptible to environmental distortion (warpage or swelling). All an AR really needs is a quality barrel to shoot as well as the best hunting rifle you can buy.

Hunting versions of the AR design, in a wide variety of chamberings, are currently offered by several manufacturers. One of the early leaders in AR hunting rifle and sport configurations has been ArmaLite, which offers both lightweight and heavy-barrel configurations in .223 (M-12A series) for long-range varmint and predator hunting, .308-chambered versions (AR-10 series) for deer hunting and competition and even a super-accurate .300 Remington Short-Action Ultra Mag (AR-10T Ultra), which is as good an elk, moose or general heavy game chambering as you can get. ...emphasis added


http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/03/longgun_reviews_ar15zum_030207/


A common argument against the use of a "black rifle" is that there is no legitimate reason to hunt game with a rifle holding 20 rounds. In most states that allow the use of such rifles for hunting the magazine capacity is limited. Florida sets a magazine limit of five rounds in any semi-auto rifle used while hunting deer.

In Florida wild hogs are considered pests as they do a lot of damage to the environment. They are often hunted and, when prepared properly, their meat is very tasty.

Wild Hog

The wild pig (Sus scrofa), also called the wild hog, wild boar or feral pig, is not a Florida native and may have been introduced by Spanish explorer Hernando DeSoto as early as 1539.



***snip***

Hunting

Wild pigs are legally defined as wildlife and are the second-most popular, large animal hunted in Florida (second only to the white-tailed deer).

On private property with landowner permission, wild pigs may be trapped and hunted year round using any legal to own rifle, shotgun, crossbow, bow or pistol. There is no size or bag limit, and you may harvest either sex. Also, no hunting license is required. A gun and light at night permit is not required to take wild hogs with a gun and light on private lands with landowner permission.
http://myfwc.com/hunting/by-species/wild-hog/


"Black rifles" are commonly used for hunting wild hog in Florida and there are no magazine capacity limits that I can find while hunting this animal.





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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #9)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 08:36 AM

22. Problem is, there is little difference between rifles that shoot food and rifles that shoot people.

 

I would not lose a minute of sleep if all fire-arms were banned for civilians, with the possible exception of fire-arms used for hunt food that is eaten.

The problem with your definition is that there is little difference between firearms that have been designed to shoot people and those designed to shoot other animals.

This is a 7.62x39 caliber rifle commonly used for hunting:



This is the exact same rifle, with different furniture on it:



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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:41 PM

8. What would be the point of having "Fewer assualt weapons on the streets."?

Rifle crime did not increase after 2004, when the previous ban expired. In fact , crimes committed with rifles (as has all violent crime) have declined.
The proposed ban is moralizing, not crime fighting.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:47 PM

10. Two problems you have with that response.

 

1. AWB bans do nothing to affect the numbers carried on the streets.

2. You can't speak to the last AWB effectiveness (or lack thereof) then you should review the available data. 10 years worth of it and it is easily found through Google.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 05:42 PM

14. the first AWB absolutely increased the number of assault weapons on the street and dramatically.

 

It also raised the gun control issue from a relatively obscure issue that mattered to a handful of scattered Americans to a much higher level of prominence in our state and national elections. IOW, not one good god damned thing came of it.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #4)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 12:10 PM

26. "Fewer assualt weapons on the streets."

 

Assault weapons aren't being used by most criminals.


No knowing what the ban that sunsetted in 2004, I can't say how to make it better or more effective, other than to say more enforcement efforts.


If assault weapons are responsible for say 1% of crimes then perfect enforcement could at best reduce crime by 1%. That's assuming people simply give up if they can't get an assault weapon rather than picking up some other gun.

So we can spend billions and hope that it actually has an impact on the tiny minority of crimes these are used in or we can spend that money on something useful instead.

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Response to spin (Original post)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 05:06 PM

13. assault weapon = anything picked up and used to assault someone.

Outlaw broken beer bottles and Nail Files. No more razors either. and kitchen knives have to go, too.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #13)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 06:29 PM

16. The British Medical Journal recommended doing away with pointy kitchen knives. ...

British Medical Experts Campaign for Long, Pointy Knife Control

By JOHN SCHWARTZ
Published: May 27, 2005


Warning: Long, pointy knives may be hazardous to your health.



The authors of an editorial in the latest issue of the British Medical Journal have called for knife reform. The editorial, "Reducing knife crime: We need to ban the sale of long, pointed kitchen knives," notes that the knives are being used to stab people as well as roasts and the odd tin of Spam.

The authors of the essay - Drs. Emma Hern, Will Glazebrook and Mike Beckett of the West Middlesex University Hospital in London - called for laws requiring knife manufacturers to redesign their wares with rounded, blunt tips.

The researchers noted that the rate of violent crime in Britain rose nearly 18 percent from 2003 to 2004, and that in the first two weeks of 2005, 15 killings and 16 nonfatal attacks involved stabbings. In an unusual move for a scholarly work, the researchers cited a January headline from The Daily Express, a London tabloid: "Britain is in the grip of knives terror - third of murder victims are now stabbed to death." Dr. Hern said that "we came up with the idea and tossed it into the pot" to get people talking about crime reduction. "Whether it's a sensible solution to this problem or not, I'm not sure."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/27/science/27knife.html?_r=3&

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Response to spin (Reply #16)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 07:05 PM

17. It's been my experience...

...that more people die of mishaps having been on both ends of forks and spoons than on either end of a long pointy knife. Are the Brits going to ban assault knives?

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #17)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 09:58 PM

19. I think they considered it but never passed a law prohibiting such knives. ...

The regulations for carrying a knife in public are truly draconian over there. I would be in big trouble if I was caught carrying any of my pocket knives in that nation as they lock open and are considered a fixed blade knife. I probably would be thrown in jail for a long time for the true fixed blade I often carry in Florida.

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Response to spin (Original post)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 09:22 AM

23. Assault weapon ban is a good idea.

 

Just don't mess with my cosmetically impaired, factory standard magazine, plastic, semi-automatic home defense and target rifles.

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Response to spin (Original post)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 11:59 AM

24. Question number 3

 

What makes anyone think that if guns are banned that the criminals and the murderers are going to just "hand them over?"

The answer is easy. They won't. But law abiding citizen will be disarmed.

Here is food for thought. I have my concealed handgun license and my instructor was a federal agent. He made this point very clear: You are responsible for your own protection. If you ask any police officer, they will tell you the same thing, which is that they are Not your personal body guards, but they are only there to enforce the general law.

That opened my eyes. Hurricane Sandy victims in the outlying borroughs are quickly learning the value and i'm sure a new found respect for personal gun protection with all of the looting going on.

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Response to Heliman (Reply #24)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 12:05 PM

25. Absolutely correct

 

As a police officer, I am not responsible an individual citizens safety unless they're in my custody, I'm responsible for the general publics safety.
Welcome to DU.

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