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Sun Nov 4, 2012, 12:39 PM

5-year justifiable homicide levels remain steady

Year Totalą
2007 257
2008 265
2009 266
2010 285
2011 260

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-15

ąDefined as "(t)he killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen"



And the murder rate, again, shows a steady decline, down 15% from 2007.

Year Rate˛
2007 5.6
2008 5.4
2009 5.0
2010 4.8
2011 4.8

˛ per 100,000 per year


Comments?

63 replies, 4925 views

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Reply 5-year justifiable homicide levels remain steady (Original post)
krispos42 Nov 2012 OP
glacierbay Nov 2012 #1
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #19
glacierbay Nov 2012 #22
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #26
glacierbay Nov 2012 #27
Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #39
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #46
gejohnston Nov 2012 #49
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #51
gejohnston Nov 2012 #52
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #53
gejohnston Nov 2012 #61
Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #63
orpupilofnature57 Nov 2012 #2
rrneck Nov 2012 #3
geckosfeet Nov 2012 #5
BigAlanMac Nov 2012 #58
geckosfeet Nov 2012 #4
krispos42 Nov 2012 #8
PavePusher Nov 2012 #13
Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #20
geckosfeet Nov 2012 #23
Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #24
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #6
krispos42 Nov 2012 #9
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #11
discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2012 #12
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #14
discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2012 #16
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #18
krispos42 Nov 2012 #25
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #28
discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2012 #31
discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2012 #29
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #30
discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2012 #33
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #35
discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2012 #36
gejohnston Nov 2012 #32
discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2012 #34
gejohnston Nov 2012 #10
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #15
gejohnston Nov 2012 #17
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #37
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #38
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #41
ManiacJoe Nov 2012 #42
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #43
discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2012 #62
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #47
gejohnston Nov 2012 #48
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #50
gejohnston Nov 2012 #54
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #56
gejohnston Nov 2012 #57
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #55
Clames Nov 2012 #7
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #44
4th law of robotics Nov 2012 #21
Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #40
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #45
PavePusher Nov 2012 #59
Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #60

Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 12:44 PM

1. But I thought that with the passage of SYG laws

 

there would be a lot more murders being classified as justifiable homicide, after all, I heard it here first.
On a serious note, this just proves that the police and prosecutors know what is and what isn't a justifiable homicide.
SYG laws are a non issue.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 04:15 PM

19. Police and Prosecutors?

"this just proves that the police and prosecutors know what is and what isn't a justifiable homicide"

I think they often disagree on this. Police are often frustrated by prosecutors who want a slam dunk before indicting anybody. SYG laws are a huge issue, as are the criteria used for classifying homicides. Ask the cops and prosecutors in Florida about the Martin case.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 04:58 PM

22. That's one case.

 

and it's, IMHO, not a case of SYG, but I'll let FL. iron that out, in Missouri we don't have a SYG law yet, just a Castle Doctrine law, however, if MO ever institutes an SYG law, I will have no problem with it.
I'm not your typical cop, am I?
We have a pretty good rapport with the DA's office, of course there will be the occasional spat, but far and away, we get along great.
I used to watch the show Law & Order, what utter bullshit, rarely are the cops and prosecutors at odds like the show portrays.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #22)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 06:23 PM

26. No, you're not a typical cop, thank goodness.

And I don't have much argument with you, except for SYG, which I consider a little loose. In general, I think most PDs and DAs have a good rapport. The problems often occur with murder cases, especially high profile cases, when the cops think they have enough evidence, but the DA wants more. I can understand both sides, frustrated cops on one side, and career bent DAs who hate to lose, on the other.
The Jablin case in Virginia is a classic example, but it all worked out in the end. I recently read the excellent Kathryn Casey book "Die, My Love" which details the investigation, and highlights the frustration.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #26)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 06:35 PM

27. Die, My Love?

 

I'll look it up on Amazon, if you say it's a good read, then I'll buy it.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #19)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 12:07 PM

39. Seriously, do you have data supporting this "huge issue?" nt

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #39)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:23 PM

46. There is lots of data out there which is being looked at.

Definitive conclusions have not been arrived at yet, but so far it looks as though SYG laws have resulted in a 2 to 3 fold increase in "justifiable homicides". Unfortunately, most of the witnesses, who might contradict the shooters' contention of justification, are dead.
Here is one link on the subject, but there are lots more if you Google "SYG justifiable homicide increase"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303404704577311873214574462.html

Here's another SYG poster boy
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/03/texas-justifiable-homicides-reportedly-rise-with-castle-doctrine/

Point is, there are a lot of morons out there who think SYG is a license to kill. It is not meant to be, but if only the shooter survives and there are no other witnesses, it ends up being exactly that. So, if you are going to piss someone off, make sure you have witnesses. It won't keep you alive, but your stat will go into a different column.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #46)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:57 PM

49. citing Wall Street Journal and Fox

according to one of our leading gun control advocates, should get you banned or suspended. That statistic alone is actually meaningless.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=84851

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #49)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 05:20 PM

51. So get me banned. WTF

The way the law is written is wrong. Statistics are irrelevant. Dead victims can't defend themselves.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #51)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 05:32 PM

52. My bad

I forgot the
I didn't say I agreed with the idea.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #52)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 05:39 PM

53. OK. I thought that wasn't like you.

Thought maybe one of the Fla natives had stolen your computer or something.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #53)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 09:25 PM

61. Naww, not that many natives around here

just colonists from Queens and Long Island. I think the secret behind New York being dependably blue for the past 40 years is because all of their Republicans moved here. At least some of them drive Priuses. It has become the 98 Olds of 21st century. Me, I'm holding out for a Chevy Volt. Now if I can convert a Willeys CJ series to electric and get the same range as a Nissan Leaf or Tesla...........................

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #46)

Tue Nov 6, 2012, 12:22 AM

63. Thanks for references. I don't see an increase of 16 syg uses in 4 years as sifnificant.

The article re Texas seems to show the limits of using syg, "even" in that state.

Interesting, that "minorities" seem to be using syg defense pleas frequently, esp. where the attacker is also a "minority."

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 12:45 PM

2. Obama !!!

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 12:48 PM

3. Wait a minute.

That's the entire country? Over three hundred million people? Didn't I see somewhere else There were about 14,000 murders?

This is a pretty safe place to be.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 12:54 PM

5. Justifiable hoomicides are given in numbers. Murder rate is a percentage per 100,000.

5% is 50 murders per 100,000.

Not sure that is all firearms though.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #5)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 08:00 PM

58. Percent means per 100

5% is 5 per 100.

50 murders per 100,000 is 0.05%

Justifiable homicides is given as an actual number because 500 per 300,000,000 is .167 per 100,000 or 0.000167%

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 12:50 PM

4. Considering that the incidence of horrific mass shootings seem to be increasing

the murder rate trend is somewhat encouraging. However your claim of justifiable homicide levels remaining steady contradicts the numbers you present.

An increase of 28 justifiable homicides from 2007 (257) to 2010 (285) represents a 10% increase using the 2010 number as the baseline. If you use the 2007 number which is probably the correct thing to do it's an 11% increase.

Based only on the 2011 (260) number alone one could make the claim that justifiable homicide rates are holding steady although it is a 1% increase.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 01:01 PM

8. Don't forget population growth

2010 was a bump.


The average for the 5 data points is 266.6, and only one data point was above that. Three were noticeably below, and one was pretty much right on the average.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 03:11 PM

13. "the incidence of horrific mass shootings seem to be increasing"

 

Hmmmm.... Got stats for that?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 04:19 PM

20. I do, but I'm not doing legwork for him.

He won't like the numbers, and will likely fall back on the word "Seem", wherein the media reports mass shootings more frequently, which is instead an increase in coverage with an overall decrease in mass shootings.

That is, if you get any response at all.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 05:18 PM

23. o for f*cks sake

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 05:26 PM

24. It's a legitimate request. You're wrong and got called on it.

See my post above.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 01:00 PM

6. Numbers are always interesting and these look good on the surface.

However, the "justifiable homicide" bar appears to be getting lower and lower, especially in states like Florida and Oklahoma.

Regarding the murder rate, factors to be considered are:
1. Response times by paramedics and ER room efficiency. The numbers only relate to those who died.
2. Community policing in major urban areas and resulting drop in gang violence.
3. Evolution of the criminal mind in the age of computers and technology, resulting in fewer criminals resorting to violence.

At the end of the day, the Justifiable Homicide rate in the US is about equal to the Total Homicide rate in the UK. So, we have a ways to go yet.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 01:08 PM

9. Point 1 has not changed much in the last 5 years

In fact, budget contraints on police and other emergency responders might in fact argue that the quality of emergency care has declined slightly.

2. Again, a huge chunk of murder is gang-related. Legalize drugs, and those murders (gun and otherwise) vanish into the ether almost immediately.



The justifiable homicide rate would be about 0.86 per million people per year. The UK homicide rate is 12 per million per year. I think you're thinking total gun deaths, maybe?

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 03:05 PM

11. You are correct. My math is off today. Must be the time change.

58 Murders a year by Firearms in Britain, 8,775 in US
http://www.juancole.com/2012/07/58-murders-a-year-by-firearms-in-britain-8775-in-us.html

Those numbers equal approximately slightly less than 1 per million in the UK (population ca. 60 million)
Slightly less than 30 per million in the US (population ca. 300 million)

Another interesting trend in the UK. Overall homicides are down 50% since 2001.
551 homicides (includes murder, manslaughter and infanticide) were reported in 2011/12, a considerable drop on the previous year's total of 638. Homicides are now down to around half of the figure for 2001/2.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/14/crime-statistics-england-wales

I agree that most murders in the US are gang related and ending the ridiculous so-called "war on drugs" is an essential first step to a less violent society.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 03:09 PM

12. I find the time change...

...irritating in both directions but the Spring change is more annoying than the Autumn.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 03:14 PM

14. As I never attend church it makes little difference to me.

Autumn has the edge though, if there is a good party happening Saturday night.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 03:21 PM

16. My cell and PCs remember for me.

I just find the idea annoying. AZ has the right idea.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #16)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 04:07 PM

18. It actually makes a lot of sense

Kids going to school in daylight, early morning joggers, summer and early fall harvests. Lots of energy savings. I like to get up early and check the news, weather. If it's still dark my batteries are probably pretty low and I have to wait for the sun to charge them a little. If I'm in a harbor where there are other boats around I can't run a generator before 8.00am, which is when I now get enough sun, thanks to the shift.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 06:12 PM

25. Then we should just get up earlier.

It's even worse for this part of the country. New England should be on Atlantic time, not Eastern time. But because we're always an hour "behind" as the sun goes, it gets dark early, even with DST.

At this point, we're on "standard" time a minority of the time. Put New England on Atlantic time and toss DST in the trash bin. It will probably help with the horrible traffic on I-95 in the morning and evening, too.

Or just move all the time zones east one zone and call it done. Permanent DST. Fine.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 06:38 PM

28. It's easier to change the clock or switch zones than getting up earlier.

Think about it. Schools and all businesses would have to change their hours. Street lighting would cost more. But I agree that some places might be better shifting zones. Newfoundland and the southeastern tip of Labrador have a half hour difference (ahead of Atlantic), which is pretty bizarre.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #28)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 08:30 PM

31. No wonder there's a bunch of...

...Newfie jokes up there.

That's just a sick idea. We should switch to GMT bag the idea of Daylight time and just adjust.
So now that we're this far off topic, how soon is it that the US will be all metric? They told me what year in grade school but that was obviously BS.

We could pass a law banning certain AR-15s for no measurable effects but adopting a logical system of measures? That's too controversial.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 07:30 PM

29. I live in the Eastern time zone.

Most weeks I work from home. I'm basically a cave dweller and I like it better when it's dark.
When I win the lottery, I'm moving here: < http://www.silohome.com/ >.

The idea of a resilient blast door appeals to me.
Stay safe.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #29)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 08:20 PM

30. Wow, that place is a trip.

Looks like there are some lots left. Ideal for preppers who want to dig in. Maybe we'll check it out on next year's road trip, if I can persuade my better half to journey that far north again.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #30)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 08:53 PM

33. I'd rent the lots and airstrip access.

I want the main area, cabin and silo.

BTW, what type/brand of panels do you have?

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #33)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 12:00 AM

35. Kyoceras- 2x130watt and 2x135watt

They charge a bank of 6x6 volt golf cart batteries (Trojan 125s).

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #35)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 05:25 AM

36. Thanks matey...

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #29)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 08:39 PM

32. Just Atlas silos?

How about Titan silos? Wait, Kansas was over rated.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #32)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 09:02 PM

34. Atlas F silos are big enough.

If your interested, I'm sure you can find something to suit your tastes.

< http://www.missilebases.com/properties >

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 01:10 PM

10. the bar remains the same

just the burden of proof. BTW, what is with the quotation marks? justifiable homicide is a legal concept.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 03:18 PM

15. I know it's a legal concept. I studied criminal law.

Prosecutors have to walk the fine line of deciding to prosecute or classify killings as justifiable. The Martin case is a classic example and I'd wager there would never have been a prosecution had there been no public outcry. Prosecutors don't like to lose.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 03:40 PM

17. you might be right

I do think if Martin were some kid from the trailer park, regardless of race, there would be no outcry. If Martin were white, Mike Savage and Glen Beck would be making a big deal out of Zimmerman being Hispanic, and questioning his citizenship and self defense claim.
Remember the lady that got 20 years for firing a warning shot at her asshole abusive husband? Same prosecutor.
Regardless of what the truth turns out to be, ideologues will ignore the reality and scream "good old boy" or "political correctness" depending on the verdict.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 10:15 AM

37. Wouldn't that result in higher numbers?

 

However, the "justifiable homicide" bar appears to be getting lower and lower, especially in states like Florida and Oklahoma.

Wouldn't that result in higher justifiable homicide numbers?

This was the claim by those against SYG laws - that suddenly we would be awash in justifiable homicides.

I don't think SYG laws increase justifiable homicides - they just make it so people don't have to spend thousands of dollars to defend themselves when it happens.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #37)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 11:29 AM

38. Yes, it would. Between 200% and 300% higher

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #38)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 12:24 PM

41. But the numbers are showing stability over the last 5 years.

 

I am confused here.

If SYG laws make for increased numbers of self-defense shootings, why are the numbers for the last 5 years stable?

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #41)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 01:57 PM

42. It is all about how the numbers are presented.

The Florida civilian (non-cop) stats are stable at 12/yr pre-SYG and 42/yr post-SYG. The levels are stable but they differ by 250%.

The problem here is that the numbers are so small that talking about percentage changes is misleading.

Interestingly, the stats for the Florida cops reflects similar stability and similar levels increase, while the law did not change for them.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #42)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 02:20 PM

43. Interesting. Maybe people are more willing to defend themselves without the threat of bankruptcy?

 

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #43)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 09:28 PM

62. Maybe it has to do with...

...that silly pursuit of happiness thing. Ya think.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #41)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:39 PM

47. It is a little confusing. You need to dig deeper.

The FBI figures are national.
The number in Texas went from 32 in2006 to 48 in 2010. That's a 50% increase.
27 were in Houston, which has become a veritable killing zone. You would probably love it. You can shoot folk there for stealing candy bars.
In Florida it is just as bad if not worse http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/stand-your-ground-laws-coincide-with-jump-in-justifiable-homicide-cases/2012/04/07/gIQAS2v51S_story.html

Point is, the numbers may seem relatively stable, but they are increasing in states like TX and FL and will probably do the same in the other 28 states that have been manipulated by ALEC and the gun lobby.
Meanwhile, the blue states are getting smarter. What a surprise.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #47)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 04:54 PM

48. So, when will Illinois repeal SYG?

They had it for over fifty years. As for the increase, IIRC, the same increase is also among cops. That makes any change in the law irrelevant. In all likelihood, what the change shows is there were just as many self defense killings earlier years, just that it was easier to send innocent, of murder, people to prison since the accused had to prove their innocence of a crime. There is also the probability that the rate is actually the same, keeping pace with population change.
The statistic by itself is meaningless because any ideologue can interpret anyway they want.
Of course, you don't actually believe people do or should defend themselves outside the home.
BTW, "blue" and "red" state only refers to how they voted for president in the last election, which may or may not have anything to do with their internal politics. The same with counties within the state. Out of California's 58 counties, less than half were blue in 2004. Wyoming had one, and two in 28. Wyoming also had three red counties, the remaining 18 counties were light purple. I am surprised that you would actually fall for the simplistic and superficial nonsense is usually reserved for lazy and dimwitted, and overpaid, pundits.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #48)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 05:17 PM

50. "Of course, you don't actually believe people do or should defend themselves outside the home."

Where did you get that idea? I believe people should defend themselves and be able to defend themselves wherever they are. I do not believe people should be able to kill others for stealing candy bars and other junk.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #50)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 06:00 PM

54. I don't know of anyplace that allows you to shoot or stab shoplifters and looters

Last edited Tue Nov 6, 2012, 12:46 AM - Edit history (1)

but we agree that is a bad idea. I think every state should adopt Wyoming's Castle Doctrine,
Wyo. Stat. § 6-2-602 (2012)

§ 6-2-602. Use of force in self defense.

(a) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury to himself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury to another if:

(i) The intruder against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, another's home or habitation or, if that intruder had removed or was attempting to remove another against his will from his home or habitation; and

(ii) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring.

(b) The presumption set forth in subsection (a) of this section does not apply if:

(i) The person against whom the defensive force is used has a right to be in or is a lawful resident of the home or habitation, such as an owner, lessee or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person;

(ii) The person sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or

(iii) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a peace officer who enters or attempts to enter another's home or habitation in the performance of his official duties.

(c) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter another's home or habitation is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

(d) As used in this section:

(i) "Habitation" means any structure which is designed or adapted for overnight accommodation, including, but not limited to, buildings, modular units, trailers, campers and tents;

(ii) "Home" means any occupied residential dwelling place.

HISTORY: (Laws 2008, ch. 109, § 1; 2011, ch. 142, § 1.)


A homeless person's tent or refrigerator box has the same protection as Dick Cheney's Mcmansion. From what I understand, the law required you to retreat from your home. While Wyoming does not have SYG, it does provide civil immunity if you prove your case outside of the home. It also provides battered woman syndrome as an affirmative defense for justifiable homicide.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #54)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 07:41 PM

56. Wyoming seems to have it right

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #56)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 07:51 PM

57. I read that quite awhile ago

a couple of economists that got some of the states wrong, and couldn't tell the difference between SYG and castle doctrine. Studies like these may show a correlation, but can't show cause. That is what makes them kind of hokey.
Besides, If you are going to knock Kleck and Wright for being in Florida public schools, don't show up with a Texas public school (Yet Harvard is OK, even though Bush was accepted and he could not get in U of T or any Florida school because his grades sucked. While private Ivy league are fine schools, the idea of affirmative action for legaceies and give them unearned and not worked for degrees, like Bush, are over rated.)

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #47)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 06:57 PM

55. I suppose people are now less willing to let criminals slide now that they don't risk financial ruin

 

...for defending themselves and their property.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 01:01 PM

7. Puts to bed the majority of the assertions that have been made by anti-gun groups...

 

...and their parrots. SYG laws do not generally increase homicide rates despite what is touted by some so-called studies. No Wild West it seems. Nothing suggesting that gun ownership and expanded CCW is influencing these tends but it certainly not hurting anything except wilting a few delicate flowers.

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Response to Clames (Reply #7)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 02:21 PM

44. Not true according to post #41.

 

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sun Nov 4, 2012, 04:23 PM

21. Proof that guns cause crime!

 

If it weren't for the increase in guns and SYG laws and the like crime would have dropped to nil by now because of . . . I dunno . . . magic.

But all those guns prevented the natural drop in crime.

Because I said so.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 12:18 PM

40. Thanks for the data. SYG laws collided head-on with

the fears of the "wild, wild west."

And nothing much happened.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #40)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 02:21 PM

45. Not true according to post #41.

 

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #45)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 08:37 PM

59. This thread has 40+ posts?

 

Wow, with my ignore list I'm seeing 16.

Am I missing anything good?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #59)

Mon Nov 5, 2012, 09:17 PM

60. You'll probably miss this one too

But in case you don't, the answer is no, you're missing nothing that might concern you. Atypical is taking care of business for you in typically good form.

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