GAO report on concealed carry in America

[hack89]

According to state reporting to GAO, there were at least 8 million active
permits to carry concealed handguns in the United States as of December 31, 2011.

a plethora of facts and stats.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/600/592552.pdf

[Savannahmann]

1. When are we going to stop this suicide by 2nd Amendment?

Eight million lunatics out there living in a fantasy that this is the old west and they are defending the homestead or whatever. When will we wake up and do whatever it takes to end this insanity?

[hack89]

2. When you can show that gun violence is increasing instead of decreasing? nt

[Savannahmann]

4. How many have to die before you'll give up your guns?

A million a year? Two million? How many people must die before you will surrender your guns? Suicide by guns already outnumber auto accidents as a leading cause of death. We are among the world leaders, not in science, or in math, but in death rates from your beloved guns.

States with must issue permits have a higher rate of gun violence than states like New York, with very restrictive gun regulations. Yet, you'll stand back and denounce me for wanting to take your precious gun.

No matter how much evidence you are shown that you are part of the problem of gun violence, you will refuse to give up your gun declaring you have a constitutional right to put your neighbors, family, and fellow citizens in danger. No amount of evidence will ever convince you, no amount of families shattered by senseless violence will ever soften your heart.

Apparently the old saying is true. A single death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic.

[hack89]

7. The number of guns deaths is steadily falling

every year you are safer.

Btw - how many Americans do you think are killed annually by guns? Millions?

[holdencaufield]

12. Stop trying to confuse him with facts ...

... you're spoiling a perfectly good temper tantrum.

[friendly_iconoclast]

18. In 2010, there were ca. 80 million gun owners and 8,775 murders/manslaughters via gun.

If you make the unlikely assumption that each and every one of those murders/manslaughters was committed by a different gun owner and that person only killed once,
the odds of getting killed by a gun owner was 9116:1. With the 650 accidental/negligent gun deaths added (and the same criteria about the shooters), the odds are 8440:1

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls

So, yeah, this is simply more hysteria.

[Dr_Scholl]

27. Shouldn't the 2011 report be out now?

A bit off topic, I know.

[hack89]

28. Here is some preliminary data

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/preliminary-annual-ucr-jan-dec-2011/data-tables/table-3

[gejohnston]

9. but we are hardly the leader in in suicide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[slackmaster]

11. Your factoid is wrong. More than 35,000 people died in motor vehicle accidents in the USA in 2010...

Fewer than 20,000 committed suicide by firearm, according to the CDC.

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html

[ileus]

16. Turning more people into willing victims would help how?

[PavePusher]

25. Since the only stats you allude to are off by several orders of magnitude....

and the rest is mere un-numbered hyperbole....



...shall I call one for you?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

29. >> Let me be 100% clear. <<

How many people must die before you will surrender your guns?

The correct answer for a lawful and responsible firearm owner is exactly ONE, his/her own death.

[Callisto32]

30. One.

The one I shoot without legal justification, before being tried and duly convicted. But that person doesn't exist, so what exactly does this have to do with those of us who do not go around shooting people?

[krispos42]

37. So you admit you want to take away people's guns?

Not prevent future sales of new guns, not prevent future private sales, not prevent the inheritance of guns from the deceased to the survivors... you actually want to go to the homes of gun owners and remove some or all of the firearms they own?


Am I correct in this assessment of what your 2nd paragraph means?

[oneshooter]

48. Do you activly support the Brady Campaign or the VPC?

[Union Scribe]

50. wtf? "you are part of the problem of gun violence"

Asinine statements that border on accusations do not help your "cause."

[Eleanors38]

53. Respectfully, the question remains: Do you want to

Prohibit and confiscate firearms?

[bluerum]

3. FYI - I don't appreciate being called a lunatic. I don't think the other 7,999,999 cc'ers do either.

But I am sure most of them are a bit thicker skinned than I am.

[Savannahmann]

5. Well let me apologize now

I'd hate for you or one of your fellow CC'ers living in your delusional idea that this is the old west and you have to defend the homestead from bandits or indians or cattle rustlers to get it in their heads to gun me down for talking bad about them.

[holdencaufield]

13. Then stay away from my CATTLE!

[4th law of robotics]

33. Those cattle were on MY LAND!

I'll shoot you!

[holdencaufield]

41. OK, keep 'em

I don't even like goat's milk

[glacierbay]

14. That's funny

because cattle rustling still goes on in MO, what would you call defending against home invasions? I would call in defending the homestead, I would call thugs bandits.
Where do you come up with a CC permit holder gunning you down for talking bad about them? If it happens so much, then post a link to the stats.
Your screech is just another in a long line of anti gun screech's.

[Trunk Monkey]

32. Cattle rustling still happens in Colorado as well. NT

[Eleanors38]

39. In Florida, too. nt

[DonP]

15. Apology accepted - it's good to recognize your limitations

Now go and actually learn something about the issue you decided to go all crazy about (1 million to 2 million dead every year - huh?) and come back with a modicum of knowledge, so you can carry your end of an intelligent conversation.

That way you won't embarrass your angry self again.

[bluerum]

34. Not sure I want your apology. You just don't seem sincere.

[Eleanors38]

35. Noticed your avatar. What model is that "gun?" nt

[holdencaufield]

42. That is a PU38 explosive space modulator

A favourite with intergalactic thugs and authoritarian types across the known galaxy

[Eleanors38]

52. Ah, the wanton but passe license of super heroes.

[dumbledork]

44. There are plenty of bandits invading homes in case you haven't noticed.

If you want me to surrender my guns, I suggest you come to my door and make me.

[hrmjustin]

45. No one is going to take your guns my friend. Welcome to du.

[Eleanors38]

54. Well, please see if Savannahmann is down with that. Thanks

[dumbledork]

56. Thank you, and you are definitely right! No one is.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. Actually, I hadn't noticed.

But I do wonder if it gets a little lonely waiting inside your locked door waiting for your opportunity.

But +1 for the great screenname.

[dumbledork]

55. My sis lives in Tulsa where home invasions are almost epidemic.

You can watch at www.kotv.com if you doubt the seriousness of the problem. I do not lock my doors at all except the screen door when I'm gone, and I'm not hoping for an "opportunity" but I'm ready if it happens.

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. I DO doubt the seriousness of the problem.

Each decade crime drops a little more. We're increasingly arming ourselves for a less and less realistic threat.

Keeping the fear level high is great for business if you're in media, the arms business or the Republican party.

I don't watch tv. I read the crime stats from the bureau of justice statistics.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012/june/crimes_061112/crimes_061112

[dumbledork]

58. Fine. You do what you think is appropriate to insure your own personal security and I will do mine.

I have no problem with DOJ statistics
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/tables/ovrelracetab.cfm

[CokeMachine]

49. I saw all of those movies

Unlike you, I can tell the difference between Hollywod and real life.

[Union Scribe]

51. Holy run on sentence, Batman. nt

[4th law of robotics]

6. Good satire.

You almost had be going. But it was a little bit too hysterical.

[friendly_iconoclast]

8. I give it 8/10, and I agree they need to work on the tone.

Needs a more straight-faced approach, like our zombie poster that thinks guns can be entirely eliminated. However, I did like the bit
where after repeatedly calling CCW holders delusional they express worries about being shot for expressing their opinion.

Could be another Amy Sedaris or Stephen Colbert if they work on it a little...

[Savannahmann]

17. Satire?

Just under a month ago I watched a friend bury his eight year old son. His son was playing in the front yard when two rival drug dealers started shooting at each other. The boy was killed in the crossfire while playing IN HIS FRONT YARD. That was my friends only child. A family destroyed, literally destroyed. And you accuse me of satire? You wonder why I am passionate about this issue of private ownership of guns?

FYI, I was asked to be on a jury a moment ago, and I saw it was one of your posts. I knew I was angry at you for your asinine assumption. I declined to participate, because I could not be fair. Even now, I wonder if I should have voted to block the post, but no, I did the right thing in declining to continue.

How many are dying? In my friends case, one hundred percent of his children. In far too many families, one hundred percent of their children.

On occasion, guns are used to prevent a crime. A very rare occasion. A vast majority of the time they are used to slaughter innocents. Or they are used to commit rape or robbery. You claim I am hysterical? No, far from hysterical, I am passionate because I've seen the damage done by your second amendment rights. I don't think of this as an abstract issue, where some faceless statistic is penciled in. I think of friends, and the losses they endure everyday. Your right to keep guns for some delusion of the wild west should not trump the right of an eight year old boy to play in his front yard.

[holdencaufield]

19. "...when two rival drug dealers started shooting at each other"

Tell me, were either of these rival drug dealers concealed carry permit holders using legally procured weapons?

I'm sorry for your friend's tragedy, but what does that have to do with the RKBA?

If your friend's son was killed by a driver would you be looking to ban people from driving?

[4th law of robotics]

20. On the chance you're being sincere

why do you blame guns rather than prohibition for that death?



Guns didn't magically become more deadly in the twenties, then gradually became harmless until the war on drugs started up.

What is really responsible for that death?

FYI, I was asked to be on a jury a moment ago, and I saw it was one of your posts. I knew I was angry at you for your asinine assumption. I declined to participate, because I could not be fair. Even now, I wonder if I should have voted to block the post, but no, I did the right thing in declining to continue.

Thanks? Which post?

[friendly_iconoclast]

21. So you want to strip non-criminals of their rights because of the actions of criminals? No thanks.

Do you think the sort of scumbags that are willing to engage in a firefight on a residential street will somehow not be able to get guns if you make legal ownership difficult or impossible?

The same people who sell substances that have been strictly illegal for decades?

I'm sorry about your friends' kid, but that's no reason for 'restricting the sober to fight drunk driving'.

[gejohnston]

22. even the most conservative estimates

place the number of people defending themselves as higher than the number of murders. BTW, what do two gangsters have to do with some target shooter or hunter in Montana? Even if we had UK style laws, the gangs would still be shooting each other because they would still have guns. Look at this basic fact
while Canada as a whole has a lower murder rate, Manitoba and Minnesota is about the same. Thunder Bay, Ontario, is Canada's murder capitol. Its murder rate is about five times El Paso's. From 1934-1968 Canada's and US's gun laws were basiclly equally lax. They were stricter on pistols but laxer on machine guns (license and registration for handguns since 1934 but started registering machine guns in 1952) From 1968-1977, our federal laws were stricter in many ways than theirs. Yet, they still had lower murder rates.

[Atypical Liberal]

24. That is a very tragic anecdote. But it is still an anecdote.

How many are dying? In my friends case, one hundred percent of his children. In far too many families, one hundred percent of their children.

Surely you must realize what a meaningless statement this is in terms of policy decision, right?

Just because one of your friends lost all of his children, is this a reason for policy changes that affect millions of people?

How many people lose 100% of their children by drowning in toilets, buckets, bathtubs, or swimming pools?

Should we get rid of these things because some people lose their children to them? Of course not. Countless more people benefit from and enjoy such things than are harmed by them.

On occasion, guns are used to prevent a crime. A very rare occasion. A vast majority of the time they are used to slaughter innocents.

There are 40-80 million firearm owners in this country, and about 1,300,000 violent crimes each year. This means that 96.75% - 98.38% of firearm owners aren't involved. They can't be - there just aren't enough violent crimes to go around. Whether these people use their firearms to prevent a crime or as paperweights, it doesn't matter. The vast, overwhelming majority of firearm owners aren't involved in violent crimes.

On top of this, violent crime continues to decline, as it has for decades now.

I don't understand why you want to hold so many people responsible for the actions of so few.

[AtheistCrusader]

31. Actually, the Justice Department pins the lawful defensive use of firearms at 100k per year.

So, are the homicides with firearms super-duper rare, by your estimate?

[Eleanors38]

36. Most homicides are committed by repeat felons. IIRC, most victims are as well.

That does not excuse these crimes, but it does clear up a misconception you have.

Many times, the notion of the "wild west delusion" has been shown to emanate from television/cinematic-informed gun-controllers, not the historical record.

The said death of a child points to a wider problem of a violent culture in some areas, probably centered on the "prohibited" drug trade, that is beyond the efforts of LEOs as currently constituted.

[GreenStormCloud]

40. You are conflating honest people with criminals.

Drug dealers don't care about drug laws, about murder laws, and don't care about gun laws. You can completely ban guns and drug dealers will still have them.

That child was not shot by honest gun owners, so why are you blaming us? Your passion has blinded you to reason.

[ileus]

43. Mine are used to protect my family.

As I always say safety first.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

47. How about some verified numbers to back up your assertions

Your undocumented emotion laden screed does not seem credible to many here.

The individual cases are heartbreaking, but taken as a whole society is better off when its members can effectively defend themselves.

If you truly want firearms gone, remove the need for them. Address the issues that lead to crimes of violence against minorities, elderly, women, and GLBTs. Until then do not ask the weak to give up their most effective defense against society's predators.

[glacierbay]

10. What insanity?

Show us the stats that say CC permit holders are insane. I've dealt with hundreds of CC permit holders and they are far from insane, they are even tempered, law abiding, thoughtful citizens who have taken the time, spent the money to get their CC permit.
Kinda sounds like you're projecting.

[Atypical Liberal]

23. "Eight million lunatics"?

Eight million lunatics out there living in a fantasy that this is the old west and they are defending the homestead or whatever. When will we wake up and do whatever it takes to end this insanity?

I think you need to do a little research on CCW permit holders.

Not all states publish the data, but for those that do, the data is very clear. States like Texas routinely publish conviction data for CCW permit holders, from everything from Public Lewdness to Homicide.

And what the data shows is that CCW permit holders are less likely to be involved in any kind of crime - let alone firearm-related crime, than a random sampling from the general population.

These eight million people are not lunatics, either literally or figuratively. They are hyper-law abiding people, people willing to go to the trouble and expense for the ability to carry a concealed weapons.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

26. Don't forget...

...to add most of the populations of four states. Those populations total 8,291,615.

[Eleanors38]

38. This figure would indicate that up to 10% of legal firearms owners are CCW...

That is a much larger percentage than just a few years ago, I believe. I did not study all of the data, but is there a year-to-year comparison in that regard?