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Sat Sep 8, 2012, 06:23 AM

Guns don't belong on college campuses

On two occasions during my career as a college professor, I feared for my safety when students confronted me about their final grades.

Because of the gun violence on our campuses and in other public spaces today, I think more and more about those confrontations.

In the first instance in Chicago, a young male student said to me that I would not "get away" with the grade I had given him. Even though I was in my 20s, athletic and a former Marine, I never again relaxed on campus. The second confrontation occurred in Fort Lauderdale when a female student brought her father to my office to argue her case for a higher grade. The father became so angry and threatening that I telephoned security to escort him and his daughter from my office.

Over the years, several of my colleagues have told me about similar threats. Some took the threats seriously. Others saw them as being part of the job.

http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/guns-dont-belong-on-college-campuses/1250354

45 replies, 3842 views

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Arrow 45 replies Author Time Post
Reply Guns don't belong on college campuses (Original post)
SecularMotion Sep 2012 OP
holdencaufield Sep 2012 #1
ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #2
SecularMotion Sep 2012 #3
ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #10
SecularMotion Sep 2012 #11
rDigital Sep 2012 #4
pnwmom Sep 2012 #28
MercutioATC Sep 2012 #29
pnwmom Sep 2012 #33
gejohnston Sep 2012 #36
pnwmom Sep 2012 #37
gejohnston Sep 2012 #38
pnwmom Sep 2012 #39
gejohnston Sep 2012 #41
PavePusher Sep 2012 #44
MercutioATC Sep 2012 #42
aikoaiko Sep 2012 #5
alabama_for_obama Sep 2012 #23
hack89 Sep 2012 #32
pnwmom Sep 2012 #34
friendly_iconoclast Sep 2012 #45
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2012 #6
Atypical Liberal Sep 2012 #7
PavePusher Sep 2012 #8
rDigital Sep 2012 #9
PavePusher Sep 2012 #14
holdencaufield Sep 2012 #15
rDigital Sep 2012 #16
PavePusher Sep 2012 #18
Simo 1939_1940 Sep 2012 #21
rl6214 Sep 2012 #12
friendly_iconoclast Sep 2012 #13
Euromutt Sep 2012 #17
alabama_for_obama Sep 2012 #24
pnwmom Sep 2012 #40
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #19
Tuesday Afternoon Sep 2012 #20
alabama_for_obama Sep 2012 #25
PavePusher Sep 2012 #26
gejohnston Sep 2012 #27
Tuesday Afternoon Sep 2012 #43
Simo 1939_1940 Sep 2012 #22
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #30
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2012 #31
jeepnstein Sep 2012 #35

Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 06:32 AM

1. Making threat of violence ...

 

... is assault. Making a threat to use deadly force is aggravated assault -- a felony in Florida. Did the teacher ever file a criminal complaint against his alleged attackers? The story doesn't mention it.

Instead of persecuting innocent, law-abiding citizens, why not use existing law to prosecute law-breakers?



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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 10:23 AM

2. Yet another Google dump

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 10:32 AM

3. Thanks for the kick

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #3)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 04:52 PM

10. Just making them easy to find later and cite as examples

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #10)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 05:02 PM

11. Thanks again

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 11:19 AM

4. It's a good thing laws keep people from committing acts of violence. nt

 

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Response to rDigital (Reply #4)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 03:02 AM

28. I guess we shouldn't have ANY laws then, because they don't keep people

from doing bad things.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #28)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 03:31 AM

29. No, but we already have gun laws...more legislation won't accomplish anything.

 

You won't find many pro-RKBA people who don't agree that there should be appropriate gun legislation. This is not an all-or-nothing scenario, it's a matter of sensibility.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #29)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 12:49 PM

33. That doesn't mean our gun laws couldn't be improved.

They're much too lax in many places.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #33)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 01:53 PM

36. and too strict in others

Lax gun laws doesn't seem to be a problem in Vermont.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #36)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 03:02 PM

37. What do you consider too strict a gun law? Do you have examples in mind?n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #37)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 03:33 PM

38. specifically?

DC and Chicago come to mind. Poorly constructed laws that serve no useful purpose for another. For example, California's "assault weapons" ban once included pistols like the Walther GSP as an "assault weapon." However:

The Walther GSP is a popular choice for the various 25 m pistol shooting events governed by the ISSF (some contested at the Olympic games). The .22 LR variant was used for the 25 m Pistol (formerly "Sport Pistol"), 25 m Standard Pistol while the .32 caliber variant was used in the 25 m Center-Fire Pistol event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_GSP

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #38)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 03:34 PM

39. Any law that is still in existence?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #39)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 03:45 PM

41. all still in existence

two went from complete bans to defacto bans, which should not be the case. In DC and Chicago, licensing/registration system should be streamlined and not be something out of a Kafka novel. Putting up needless bureaucratic roadblocks does not disarm the gangs, it only tells the residents "we care more about our own egos and writing checks to the gun lobby than dealing with real issues".
California's "AWB" is still absurd. The law was amended for the 2000 Olympics to exempt a few pistols by name. Even then, some in the California assembly took the view of "If you want to shoot in the Olympics that bad, move to Arizona." Hardly balancing civil liberties and public safety.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #39)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 05:47 PM

44. Ummm... WTF? n/t

 

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #33)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:52 PM

42. I don't see them as being too lax

 

Federally, I'd like to see some changes to loosen things up a bit, but I'm generally O.K. with existing laws. Some states, however, have gun laws much tighter than I believe reasonable.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 11:40 AM

5. There is nothing about a college classroom or faculty office that makes....


...an student more dangerous or likely to use their weapon illegally.




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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #5)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 11:34 PM

23. Actualy there is.

It's the imbalance of power between the professor and the student. If the student perceives in their young mind that the professor is being unjust, I can see situations in which they might be more likely to flip.

A lot of it has to do with their ability to self reflect and take responsibility for their actions, like not doing their homework or showing up for class. One must not forget that the students brains are literally not fully formed yet, and passing a class or not can in their eyes and to some extent in reality crush their future career aspirations.

I have had two students in my relatively short teaching career escalate discussion of their grades to the point where they were acting irrationally and on the verge of doing something stupid. Fortunately this was always over email, and never in person, but it can be a bit troubling nonetheless.

I'm glad that students aren't suppose to carry guns where I work, and on the whole I could be considered on the gun nut end of the spectrum here. I do think that employees/professors should be able to carry, especially if there were some kind of training/certification process. I look at it like first aide training, something people in positions of responsibility for others ought to be capable of doing. Protect students/coworkers from people who would cause harm until the professionals can get there.

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Response to alabama_for_obama (Reply #23)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 11:52 AM

32. Then we should see a trend towards assaults on professors by students regardless of weapon.

or are you really trying to say that they won't flip unless they have a gun?

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #5)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 12:51 PM

34. College students are at the peak age for developing schizophrenia

and other mental disorders.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #34)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 06:13 PM

45. So is everyone else around the age of 21.

Yet there doesn't seem to be any especial problem with 20-something CCW holders.

So what's your point?

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 11:59 AM

6. Facing facts...

...the situations described will not be solved with a sign.

Only a...



...with these...


...and a...


...will stop those folks.

Let's be real.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 12:24 PM

7. No gun law is going to stop this.

 

In the first instance in Chicago, a young male student said to me that I would not "get away" with the grade I had given him. Even though I was in my 20s, athletic and a former Marine, I never again relaxed on campus. The second confrontation occurred in Fort Lauderdale when a female student brought her father to my office to argue her case for a higher grade. The father became so angry and threatening that I telephoned security to escort him and his daughter from my office.

Over the years, several of my colleagues have told me about similar threats. Some took the threats seriously. Others saw them as being part of the job.


No gun law is going to stop this. Just like when Amy Bishop walked into my school building, against the rules, and shot 6 people, killing 3, nothing is going to stop a student who wants to shoot their professor from bringing a gun onto campus and shooting their professor.

You can pass all the laws and have all the rules about guns on campus you want. If someone wants to shoot their professor, they will.

This is a stupid reason for prohibiting concealed carry on campus.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 02:44 PM

8. Another "educator" who is more concerned by the lawful than by the criminal.

 

With that kind of mental process, thank the FSM that that ass-hat is no longer involved in education.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #8)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 03:09 PM

9. FSM = Flying Spaghetti Monster?

 

May his noodly appendage light the way for you.

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Response to rDigital (Reply #9)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 01:22 AM

14. May your life be flooded in the beneficence of his sauce, and his blessings of Parmesan...

 

snow down upon you.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #14)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 01:33 AM

15. If I prefer Pesto ...

 

... does that make me a heretic?

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #15)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 01:43 AM

16. : ) I'm a lasagna man. nt

 

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #15)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 04:46 PM

18. Hmmm... heretic, no. But certainly a most misguided schism.

 

But we must all be tolerant of our confused brethren until they see the light and return to the glory of the Great Strainer.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 11:26 PM

21. My my.......suddenly I feel the urge for a late night spaghetti dinner! :-) NT

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 05:30 PM

12. And none of them had anything to do with guns

 

Next google dump story...

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #12)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 05:38 PM

13. Note also that the one shooting mentioned in the story didn't happen on campus...

More faith promoting rumor from the hoplophobic.

You can't trust these people any farther than you can throw them.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 05:39 AM

17. Violence doesn't belong on college campuses, but it's still present

At least at the college I went to, it was not merely a violation of the law but also of the student code of conduct to threaten a staff or faculty member or a fellow student with violence. If a student makes a threat of violence and is serious enough to intend to follow through on it, then exactly what is going to stop that student from bringing a weapon onto campus even in violation of the regulations? Hell, in for a penny, in for a pound.

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Response to Euromutt (Reply #17)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 11:39 PM

24. These codes of conduct

They make it easier to kick out or otherwise discupline unruly students without worrying about a lawsuit, etc. They have their place, and at the very least set the tone for what is expected behavior on campus. They also raise awareness, which can sometimes help stop problems before they start.

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Response to Euromutt (Reply #17)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 03:37 PM

40. But you have to have the regulation or the law

in order to impose a penalty for a violation.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 07:24 PM

19. "Because of the gun violence on our campuses" those would be officially designated

 

gun-free campuses would they not professor?

How can there be gun-violence when guns are banned? Using them for violent purposes would be like illegal and stuff.


In the first instance in Chicago, a young male student said to me that I would not "get away" with the grade I had given him. Even though I was in my 20s, athletic and a former Marine, I never again relaxed on campus. The second confrontation occurred in Fort Lauderdale when a female student brought her father to my office to argue her case for a higher grade. The father became so angry and threatening that I telephoned security to escort him and his daughter from my office.


Chilling stuff. Stephen King better watch out.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 08:52 PM

20. not for nothing but, we put guns in 18y/o hands and send them off to war

Last edited Sun Sep 9, 2012, 09:30 PM - Edit history (1)

every day.

Kind of two faced to ask them to serve their country but, not think them responsible enough to ccw on campus.

something is wrong with this picture.

doncha think . . .

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #20)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 11:45 PM

25. Poor analogy

When they are in the military, they are (ostensibly) under strict authoritarian style supervision, with a myriad of rules that must be obeyed to the letter or risk serious punishments. Totally different situation from a college campus, where 18 year olds are learning (hopefully) to think critically and navigate through complicated intellectual subjects with relative independence. The guns they have in the military are strictly regulated, as is access to ammo. The 18 year olds in the military are not expected to think for themselves when it comes to the weapons they are issued and specifically trained to use. They are expected to follow orders without question.

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Response to alabama_for_obama (Reply #25)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 12:25 AM

26. You don't really seem to understand the modern military. n/t

 

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Response to alabama_for_obama (Reply #25)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 12:30 AM

27. beyond over simplification

that is true in basic training. To some degree, that is also true in officer candidate school as well. Who do you think does all of the technical work for the military?

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Response to alabama_for_obama (Reply #25)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 05:21 PM

43. I disgaree. Either raise the age to send them off to war

and then you can legitimately argue to keep guns off campus -- otherwise NO DICE.

I am NOT buying what you are trying to sell.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 11:33 PM

22. Can you provide evidence that permit holders have posed a problem on campuses?


Of course you can't. Because none exists.

Just more of the usual moral whip and emotion-based "logic" we're used to getting from you.

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Response to Simo 1939_1940 (Reply #22)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 09:50 AM

30. All the problems cited will be illegal gun owners

 

carrying and using their guns on designated gun-free campuses.

All the instances cited in the article by this prof did not involve guns.

Clearly we must go after . . . legal gun owners and further restrict guns in places where they are already entirely banned.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 10:58 AM

31. There's nothing to worry about.

In the first instance in Chicago, a young male student said to me that I would not "get away" with the grade I had given him.


You can't carry a gun in Chicago so he's as safe as can be.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 12:55 PM

35. Isn't he special?

I've been threatened on almost every job I've ever held. The worst was when I was a clerk in a convenience store. Deal with people and you'll eventually find a crazy or two.

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