Just an offhand question...

[rrneck]

Would you burglarize a home, assault a stranger on the street, or rob a store if you thought you might get shot?

[peacebird]

1. I would not consider doing any of those Period.

Fear of getting shot is not the deterrent for me in this. Some things are just wrong.

[rrneck]

2. Well, yeah. Me neither.

But, that's not why I asked.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind

[Hoyt]

3. No. Would you shoot an unarmed teenager or homeless person rummaging through you carport?

But, if I were a wanton criminal and thought someone was armed or might be, I'd shoot them before they even knew what was going on. That's one of the things the gun proliferationists fail to recognize.

I know some of you gun cultists have posted about the uncanny ability -- sort of like Zimmerman -- to spot a "thug" at a distance.

[rrneck]

6. Um, no.

And where will you be when someone is getting shot before they know it?

[GreenStormCloud]

30. How do I know he is unarmed?

If someone is robbing my stuff I am allowed to assume that he is armed and act accordingly.

Criminals have learned that shooting first for a robbery is a real bad idea. There is a reason for that. Most criminals are very lousy shots and have to be at point-blank range before they shoot if they want to hit. If they draw their gun too early then they will tip off the intended victim who may draw and fire. So even if they want to murder first, rob later they still have to go through the whole stalking bit first, which can also tip the victim off.

Also, gunshots are noisy and attract a lot of attention. Robbers don't want everybody for a block around to know that something just went down.

Since you have posted that you are a former robber, one would expect you to know that kind of stuff.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=45338

[Hoyt]

33. I guess your "instructor" told you shoot first, even if obvious you have

situation under control. Too many folks like you to not change laws to keep callous gun owners out of public.

You guys need to talk to people who don't profit from your guns like these rigid, moronic "instructors" you guys worship like gurus. Note- not sure you are one of the lethal weapon "instructor" worshippers, so not necessarily commenting to you.

Except for your guns, I love you guys.

[S_B_Jackson]

40. Before I can answer, I need a little more information....

what time of day (or night) is it?
How many purpetrators?

[Hoyt]

42. Hey, you aren't going to have complete info in unlikely event you find yourself in a situation.

[S_B_Jackson]

47. If I found myself in a situation...

I'd damned sure know what those conditions are that I've asked you to supplement in YOUR hypothetical situation, and the answer to those questions would dictate some of my legal options.

[Hoyt]

50. So, if it is legal, you shoot?

[S_B_Jackson]

52. Well to answer,

in order to get to my carport, the teenager(s) or the homeless vagrant(s) have had to cross 25 yards across posted property to even get there....If at night, and I believe that they are attempting steal my vehicle or tools of my trade, I can legally presume the threat of imminent physical harm exists and can defend my property with up to lethal force.

the short answer is, I might if I perceived that they represented a threat of imminent harm to me or mine. If not, I warn them they're trespassing, advise them that the police have been contacted, and they need to leave my property post-haste.

[Hoyt]

53. I'm all for telling people to get off your property. I'm not for shooting them in back at 40 yards.

Yours sounds like a reasonable approach.

Don't always hear that from gun cultists. That's why I'm opposed to carrying in public -- too many trigger happy people.

[Trunk Monkey]

57. even if it's a 14 YO and his dog? NT

[Hoyt]

58. T Monkey, what you going to do, alert again if I mention that the 14 yo was son of randy weaver

and was guarding his dad to keep federal marshals from arresting him for being a racist and trafficking guns to fine law-abiding gun owners known as Ayran Nation?

If I were his father, the last thing I would do is indoctrinate my kid into the culture of the Ayran Nation or teach him to shoot at federal marshals with a valid warrant for my arrest.

But then, I'm not warped by guns like some here, including those who appear with new names but knowledgeable of very old posts they keep in their stalking file.

[gejohnston]

60. that is a crock of shit

and you know it.
Shooting someone in the back who is no threat to you is always wrong, no exceptions. It is one of those absolutes like death, taxes, and the speed of light. I don't give a fucking rats ass what you think about Randy Weaver, his kid, or anyone else. The only criminals there had badges.

[Hoyt]

61. First off, randy weaver's son was ARMED, a racist, and bent on shooting federal marshals to

keep his miserable soul out of jail.

Some gun cultists have said that they would shoot an UNARMED teenager for a lot less than that.

Fact is, when racist gun traffickers hide behind their family -- while knowing federal marshals are camped just outside their compound waiting as long as possible for a peaceful surrender by daddy weaver -- they have to accept the consequences. Also, let's not forget that the armed son, was with another racist who shot a federal marshal at the same time. There is much more to this story than the cultist admit.

[gejohnston]

62. that is not the facts of the case

he was armed
there is no evidence he was a racist, and that doesn't matter. Murder is always wrong. The cop committed murder.
he was not bent on shooting a federal marshal, he returned fire at someone in the forest.
Sammy was not going to jail

these "gun cultist" you claim made no such statement.
There is no evidence that Harris is a racist. He shot the marshal in self defense. Open fire with an automatic weapon without identified yourself and hiding in the forest, bad things can happen to you. It was ruled justifiable homicide in a federal court under federal self defense laws at the time. That is why Harris walked out the court room a free man and a million dollars richer. The cop's poor decision making got him killed. His supervisor's criminal actions and illegal orders also got agent killed and himself in prison.

Based on your rants on other justifiable shootings and this shooting, you really come off as a racist in my opinion.

[Hoyt]

63. You actually believe randy weaver -- Ayran Nation lover -- would accept a liberal in his compound?

Shot marshal in "self defense." That, GE, is why I laugh my rear off every time some gun cultist says he carries for "self defense."

[gejohnston]

64. how about a non racist conservative? Moderate?

that is what a federal court ruled. Mr. Harris is a million richer. The dead cop's boss pled guilty to felonies and went to prison. Like it or not, that is the official record and facts of the case.
There was a case in Quebec where the cops showed up at the wrong house with a no knock warrant. Homeowner walked because the word "POLICE" was only on the back of the vest and not the front. Homeowner had no way of knowing they were cops until the cop fell dead, allowing him to read "POLICE" All he knew, someone was breaking in downstairs, by the time he got a .357 out of the safe, there were armed ninja looking people kicking in his bedroom door without visible identification.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Parasiris

[S_B_Jackson]

70. I'm all for telling unwelcome visitors to get off your property too.

But don't think for a moment that while I was in the process of determining whether your hypothetical teen(s)/vagrant(s) represented a threat that I wouldn't be armed or that if I decided to speak with them about their illegal trespass that I wouldnt' still be armed - either with a pistol or a shotgun or both.

Of course your hypothetical situation isn't "in public", it's on private property.......so your non-sequitur about carrying in public is a bit nonsensical.

As for whether or not you're for shooting them in the back at 40 yards doesn't change the fact that under some circumstances, doing so is perfectly legal. Stealing a man's (or woman's) vehicle or tools of their trade at night? The owner would be on very firm ground in doing so. In fact, the owner could do so even if a police officer was 10 feet away...and said office could not and would not be able to place the owner/shooter under arrest.

Most gun rights advocates that I know make themselves very aware of the laws which govern the legal use of their firearms.....a shame most gun control mavens are so absolutely clueless.

[Jenoch]

41. Just how would

I know the person is either an unarmed teenager or a homeless person? Do you believe all unarmed teenagers and homeless people to be harmless? If so, why do you believe that?

[Hoyt]

43. If I had a gun, they would be harmless enough not to shoot them in cold blood.

[Jenoch]

56. Huh?

What if they had a gun? Would that still be in cold blood? What if they had an assault weapon? Is it ok to shoot them then?

[Hoyt]

59. Except they didn't, Jenoch. Do you walk down the street with your gun and see someone like

Trayvon Martin and say, what if he has a gun? I think many here do just that.

[Jenoch]

66. You posed a question

about an unarmed teenager or a homeless person ransacking someone's home. Just how in the homeowner to know if the perps are unarmed or not? I do not walk down the street armed at any time. The reason I asked the question is that you seem to believe that anyone up to no good is unarmed. How the hell can someone getting mugged and assaulted know if the perp is armed or not DURING the assault?

[Hoyt]

67. So, your solution is to assume they are and shoot them dead center?

[Jenoch]

68. I would not

shoot the people ransacking my carport. If I was being assaulted by three (or more) people and I was armed I sure as hell would pull the gun and depending on the circumstances I might fire. It would depend on the specifics of the situation. See, unlike you, I would not rule out shooting someone to protect my life. I do believe my life is more important than some hoodlums assaulting and robbing me.

[Hoyt]

69. I wouldn't rule it out, but it's so unlikely.

[Jenoch]

71. What's unlikely got to do with it?

There was a story about a senior citizen defending himself with a gun against 3 thugs that were in the process of beating him, possibly taking his life, and you said something to the effect of the 65 year old should have been able to take on 3 teens without a gun. WTF?

[Hoyt]

72. Yea, he was about to become a vegetable like Zimmerman, but was able to draw his gun and hit targets

Quit acting like poor feeble people should just get a gun and shoot unarmed people.

While it may have been proper here, it sounds to me that the old guy could have stopped this without shooting people -- a thought that seems foreign to those who buy a bunch of guns, strap them to their body to go out, train to shoot people, live in constant concern for their lives, promote more guns on web sites, support NRA, and worse.

If you are that worried, carry a defibrillator -- far more likely to need it and does some good for society.

[Jenoch]

77. "It seems" to you?

What information do you have that others do not? You keep saying 'unarmed teenagers' like a victim of an attack by teenagers would know if they were armed or not. Hell, the victim would not even know the number of assailants as there likely could be several more hoodlums standing by watching the beating just waiting for their turn. If an old man is getting the shit kicked out of him in a mugging by a group of teens he has a duty to his family to defend himself. If that results in the death of one of his attackers, so be it, they chose to put themselves at risk. That's the law.

[rl6214]

46. What is a "gun cultist"? Couldn't find any definition anywhere on the internet

Just another lame attempt at name calling on your part.

[ManiacJoe]

4. The smart criminals would do a risk assessment on each potential victim.

However, lots of criminals do not fall into the "smart" category.

[rrneck]

14. It doesn't take a lot of smarts to not want to get shot. nt

[ManiacJoe]

18. "hoping against" and "working to prevent" are two different things.

No one "wants" to get shot.

[rrneck]

20. Those are part of a risk assesment.

The best way to tag a bad guy so he can be identified later is to shoot a hole in him. The doc has to report a GSW to the police. So even if it's some kid who thinks he'll live forever, he still won't want to get busted.

But indeed, some aren't even that smart.

[Hoyt]

45. Unfortunately, I think that is more characteristic of gun culture.

[Reasonable_Argument]

65. Risk assessment?

Absolutely, but criminals tend to go for softer targets as well. How often to do hear about police evidence lockers being robbed?

[ileus]

5. Yes..because I'd take the gun away and shoot it's owner.

No wait...I'd bring a bigger gun and shoot first.

No.....I'd intimidate the inexperienced operator with my superior robber skilzs.

No hold on....I deserve what he/she has, why hurt me for property? Innocent criminal...love me.

Armed civilians are nothing but Rambo / cowboy/ loungzimmcho wannabes.






Guns and ammo in the hands of citizens is a bad thing.

Besides most gun owners commit suicide or harm a family member first, so I'd just walk in after the owner was dead or incarnated. Free stuff....

[rrneck]

7. Yeah but

I got a can of beans and I can open it under water while riding a bicycle.

[TPaine7]

10. Classic!!!

Can I modify that slightly as my sig line?:

Be warned: I have a can of beans and I can open it under water while riding a bicycle
—paraphrase of rrneck

[rrneck]

12. Be my guest,

I'll be honored to see it there.

[Teamster Jeff]

8. A dog is as good as a gun for the home

Barking will stop the burglar from even trying. They will move on to an "easier" target.

[rrneck]

11. Unless your landlord says, "no pets".

And a gun is a lot cheaper than a dog.

[Kaleva]

16. I don't know about that.

I posted in another thread about gun costs. My dog was a rescue animal from the local animal shelter and I paid $50.00 (which was for vet fees) for him. A 20 lb. bag of Purina Dog Chow costs me a little over $12.00 when it's on sale (and that's when I buy it) and that will last about a month. Another member had posted that his range fees alone are about $40.00 a month.

[rrneck]

17. One vet bill can be the price of a new gun.

There's a range near me that has a $5 "honor box".

[Teamster Jeff]

19. Don't forget to add in the Soldier of Fortune subscription

I'll keep my dogs

[rrneck]

21. Why would I subscribe to SoF?

Oh, I get it. You made a funny. Yes, you're very clever.

So what should people do who can't have a ravenous loose cannon uncontrollable macho man status symbol attack dog?

Civil goes both ways.

[Common Sense Party]

74. My gun doesn't shit in the yard.

And it never bothers the neighbors by baking all night.

[rrneck]

75. That's enough for me right there.

I get pretty tired of pat, petty little bourgeoisie solutions to life and death problems. People trot out bullshit like, "get a dog" or "just move" like that were an option for millions of people.

Sensitive my ass.

[ileus]

24. SOF is 1980's there are plenty of great publications now.

Only problem is most are in the 10 buck range.

[ileus]

22. I was told 2500-3500 for surgery on one of my dogs.

Just a few months ago. Instead of surgery we dug up some steroids and caged the critter for several weeks. Not a complete recovery but probably 95% and it saved us a ton.


Our local public range has the same "honor box" it's on National Forest land. I always end up spending 30 minutes of so cleaning up other peoples mess every time I go.

[Kaleva]

23. I'm old school when it comes to pets.

As the eldest kid growing up on a farm, it was sometimes my task to put down an animal. No trip to the vet for them.

[ileus]

25. Growing up in the 70's and 80's on a farm things were different.

Dad called a vet only if a cow or a horse was having trouble.


Dogs and Cats come and went....being non essential. I don't even recall 1000 hunting dogs going to the vet.

[rrneck]

27. That might be fine for you but

a lot of people get pretty attached to their pets. While s dog might be an adaquate solution for some, people who get sentimental about their pets, keep an irregular schedule, have irregular or limited income, or no pets housing will probably prefer a gun.

[trouble.smith]

76. ...........

you should try Eukaneuba. I switched from Purina and I saw a dramatic increase in my dog's health and vitality practically overnight. I have three dogs now actually and a dozen or so firearms. Somebody recently tried to pull my GF out of her car one morning a few months back as she was setting off to work at 5:30 am. She and I both have CCWs now and we bought a Doberman Pinscher. A few weeks ago, the day we got the dobe actually, a felon fleeing the police jumped her uncle's fence and tried to run through his house. He had a couple of smaller mongrels that were able to deter this individual but only because he didn't see how small they were. A few years ago though, while on vacation out in the desert, a gang of thugs attempted to rob us at a secluded gas station. The dogs weren't with us but my .357 magnum was. That situation ended with nobody being robbed. I spend way more on my dogs than on my guns incidentally. i have thousands of dollars in them at this point. I have a grand in the doberman already and he's only 14 weeks old.

[Skittles]

32. a gun in a an apartment

NOT A GOOD IDEA

[rrneck]

35. Neither are home invaders.

[Equate]

37. Then don't have one in the apartment

your choice, my choice, as many as I want, my choice.

[Missycim]

55. Care to explain that?

nt

[ileus]

15. I have two that are caged in the great room at night.

There's little argument that dogs are a great home defense component. (Mine are mini-wieners)

If they bark, something is going on. They'll go days before you hear them bark, when they do bark it's almost always someone new at the neighbors, walking down the road or a strange dog. Best animals I've ever had.

I let them out all day long and cage them inside at night.

[petronius]

9. I wouldn't do any of those things at all, but if in some hypothetical Mirror World I

was the kind of person who would, I would certainly choose the target that posed the least threat (and greatest reward) to me: small/frail, inattentive, unarmed-seeming folks with fat wallets would be on my radar. And I would naturally avoid Hoyt's house - I hear that his can-of-beans defense is wicked effective...

[Kaleva]

13. I wouldn't do such a thing even if I was positive I wouldn't be caught so the question is moot.

Most predators in the wild will not take undue risks unless they are desperate. An exception is the honey badger. The honey badger don't care. The honey badger don't give a shit.

[Skittles]

26. because with all the guns around, all that crime has stopped

[rrneck]

28. You missed something...

YOU FORGOT TO YELL!

Think you can rationally discuss the OP, or do you prefer your standard tantrum?

[Skittles]

31. YOU MISSED MY POINT

[rrneck]

34. You didn't have one.

Till now.

[Skittles]

36. done with you

you're fucking pathetic

[rrneck]

38. At least I don't

have to yell to keep from having an intelligent discussion.

[Equate]

39. You sure like to drop a lot of F bombs, don't you?

I guess that's what you do when bested.
Oh well, have a good night.

[rrneck]

44. She's striking a blow for... something. nt

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

29. No

Absolutely not. I'm neither violent nor stupid and I'd have to be both to try any of that.

[slackmaster]

48. I wouldn't do any of those things even if I was certain I would not get shot

Because they are wrong.

[rrneck]

49. I could have phrased the question better. nt

[indie9197]

51. A better question would be...

Would you be more likely to do all those things if you knew you WOULD NOT be shot?

[spin]

73. Good point. (n/t)

[Missycim]

54. I wouldn't rob in the first place

But there are some here that have said they robbed in the past you should ask them

[rDigital]

78. My own moral compass would preclude me from engaging in such nefarious activities.

However, I can see that as a deterrent to those who would rob, steal & kill with impunity otherwise.