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Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:50 AM

 

10 Tips for gun control advocates.

Last edited Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:52 PM - Edit history (2)

#1 The gun show loophole, as you wish to define it, does not exist. Every law that applies outside gun shows applies inside the doors. Federal Firearms Licensees (a.k.a., gun dealers or FFLs) at a gun show must fill out their ATF Form 4473s and do their FBI background (NICS) checks just as if they were at their shops (or their homes for that matter). Only private sales do not have these restriction at gun shows, they also do not have them outside of gun shows.

#2 Internet gun sales are subject to the same regulations and background checks as purchases from a gun shop. If you purchase a gun online, it has to be shipped to a Federal Firearms License (FFL) dealer, and you must pass the same legal checks to pick it up.

#3 You are constantly mis-defining the word Regulated as it appears in the 2A. As used by the writers of the 2nd it is defined : "properly functioning , orderly, and quite predictable, as in, to regulate a clock." It has nothing to do with control, it just meant that the people should train with their weapons. You're trying to apply the word "regulation" as we use it now to "regulate" as the writers used it then. Words change, or have multiple meanings. The word "regulate" wasn't used as you are defining it until 1828. See: Websters Dictionary 1806 & 1828, & Dictionary of Word Origins by John Ayto. Of course, I guess its possible that when your physician advises you to maintain a well regulated colon, he thinks you should give control of your body functions to the fed.

#4 Claiming that the SCOTUS has misinterpreted the 2A for 200 years is not likely to undo the precedent they have set. (and it just makes you look silly)

#5 Be careful how you go about trying to undo the 2A, the same tyrannical tactics would eventually be used on the rest of the Bill of Rights.

#6 Privately owned "Assault Rifles" are not assault rifles and are not full-auto, they are the exact same as the average hunting rifle and fire 1 round per 1 pull of the trigger. There are much more dangerous guns. Focusing on the ones that "look scary" demonstrates that you know nothing about firearms and causes the average gun owner to ignore you. (on a side-note, that "high capacity" mag may hold 100 rounds; but the shooter would have to pull the trigger 100 times, with no jams, and have 100% accuracy 100 times for that to matter)

#7 Neither the Constitution or the Bill of Rights ever granted citizens the right to own guns. It is NOT something granted to us by the government. It was a right that was presumed to exist. The BoR simply stated that the government could not infringe upon that independently existing right.

#8 The founders did not protect our right to keep and bear arms for the sake of hobbyists and hunters. Its primary function is as a check against the threat of tyranny. To which most gun control advocates will promptly call you a paranoid, red dawn, crazy. Though I see no threat of such a problem presently, to say that our government could never turn on its citizens points out that you are ignorant of human nature and world history. To the other half who will say "like you would have any chance against the U.S. military if the fed wanted to go dictator", well much the same was said about the Colonies chances against the British empire, and I don't know about you, but I will take a small chance of avoiding a police state over NO chance.

#9 There's a reason perfectly sane law abiding citizens enjoy going to the range. Guns are fun. No, seriously.

#10 The American public strongly support the 2nd Amendment. Even on DU support for gun rights is at 70%. To have any hope of accomplishing your goal of more regulation or gun bans you will have no choice but to convince the average gun owner to support it. Calling 2A advocates "gun nuts" "redneck" "baby killer" psychopath" etc is unlikely to aid you in this.

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Arrow 218 replies Author Time Post
Reply 10 Tips for gun control advocates. (Original post)
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 OP
Scuba Jul 2012 #1
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #2
Scuba Jul 2012 #8
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #9
gejohnston Jul 2012 #10
alabama_for_obama Jul 2012 #37
gejohnston Jul 2012 #53
Remmah2 Jul 2012 #111
gejohnston Jul 2012 #115
kenfrequed Jul 2012 #139
Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #173
gejohnston Aug 2012 #174
Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #175
ellisonz Aug 2012 #198
xxenderwigginxx Aug 2012 #200
Right Hand of Dog Aug 2012 #177
gejohnston Aug 2012 #178
xxenderwigginxx Aug 2012 #179
Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #180
gejohnston Aug 2012 #182
Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #183
gejohnston Aug 2012 #184
Starboard Tack Aug 2012 #185
gejohnston Aug 2012 #186
DainBramaged Aug 2012 #190
gejohnston Aug 2012 #191
gejohnston Jul 2012 #6
spin Jul 2012 #20
4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #47
TheCowsCameHome Jul 2012 #3
ProgressiveProfessor Jul 2012 #12
sarisataka Jul 2012 #45
rl6214 Jul 2012 #118
TheCowsCameHome Jul 2012 #157
OneTenthofOnePercent Jul 2012 #4
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #5
oneshooter Jul 2012 #160
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #162
SecularMotion Jul 2012 #7
rl6214 Jul 2012 #119
HALO141 Jul 2012 #129
Kaleva Jul 2012 #11
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #13
Kaleva Jul 2012 #16
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #21
rl6214 Jul 2012 #120
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #127
oneshooter Jul 2012 #161
rl6214 Jul 2012 #166
alabama_for_obama Jul 2012 #41
Mec9000 Jul 2012 #58
bongbong Jul 2012 #14
armueller2001 Jul 2012 #17
bongbong Jul 2012 #23
sarisataka Jul 2012 #46
spin Jul 2012 #19
bongbong Jul 2012 #22
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #24
bongbong Jul 2012 #26
ErikO Jul 2012 #35
bongbong Jul 2012 #69
rl6214 Jul 2012 #122
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #25
bongbong Jul 2012 #27
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #33
bongbong Jul 2012 #70
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #71
bongbong Jul 2012 #72
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #73
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #75
bongbong Jul 2012 #78
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #80
bongbong Jul 2012 #86
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #89
bongbong Jul 2012 #112
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #113
rl6214 Jul 2012 #123
bongbong Jul 2012 #145
ProgressiveProfessor Jul 2012 #163
cleanhippie Jul 2012 #125
bongbong Jul 2012 #143
cleanhippie Jul 2012 #155
spin Jul 2012 #106
bongbong Jul 2012 #108
spin Jul 2012 #135
aikoaiko Jul 2012 #43
bongbong Jul 2012 #67
cleanhippie Jul 2012 #124
bongbong Jul 2012 #144
cleanhippie Jul 2012 #156
Callisto32 Jul 2012 #15
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #18
Callisto32 Jul 2012 #130
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #131
auburngrad82 Jul 2012 #28
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #32
Marengo Aug 2012 #187
electedface Jul 2012 #29
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #34
Chuuku Davis Jul 2012 #38
alabama_for_obama Jul 2012 #42
PavePusher Jul 2012 #116
Chuuku Davis Jul 2012 #30
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #36
spin Jul 2012 #114
bupkus Jul 2012 #31
spin Jul 2012 #117
bupkus Jul 2012 #158
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #159
spin Jul 2012 #165
Hoyt Jul 2012 #39
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #40
Hoyt Jul 2012 #49
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #50
Hoyt Jul 2012 #51
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #55
Hoyt Jul 2012 #57
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #59
Hoyt Jul 2012 #61
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #62
Hoyt Jul 2012 #64
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #65
rl6214 Jul 2012 #126
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #63
Hoyt Jul 2012 #66
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #68
Hoyt Jul 2012 #74
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #77
bongbong Jul 2012 #81
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #83
bongbong Jul 2012 #85
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #87
bongbong Jul 2012 #93
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #95
gejohnston Jul 2012 #100
bongbong Jul 2012 #107
bongbong Jul 2012 #105
rl6214 Jul 2012 #128
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #90
bongbong Jul 2012 #91
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #94
bongbong Jul 2012 #99
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #101
bongbong Jul 2012 #103
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #104
kenfrequed Jul 2012 #168
bongbong Jul 2012 #76
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #79
bongbong Jul 2012 #84
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #88
bongbong Jul 2012 #110
Hoyt Jul 2012 #82
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #92
bongbong Jul 2012 #97
Reasonable_Argument Jul 2012 #98
bongbong Jul 2012 #102
sarisataka Jul 2012 #121
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #60
alabama_for_obama Jul 2012 #44
Hoyt Jul 2012 #48
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #52
Hoyt Jul 2012 #54
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #56
gejohnston Jul 2012 #96
JoeInNy Jul 2012 #109
RegieRocker Jul 2012 #136
jody Jul 2012 #132
RegieRocker Jul 2012 #137
jody Jul 2012 #140
RegieRocker Jul 2012 #147
Sancho Jul 2012 #133
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #134
RegieRocker Jul 2012 #138
jody Jul 2012 #142
RegieRocker Jul 2012 #146
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #148
RegieRocker Jul 2012 #150
Sancho Jul 2012 #154
Callisto32 Jul 2012 #164
kenfrequed Jul 2012 #141
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #149
kenfrequed Jul 2012 #167
TheKentuckian Aug 2012 #199
kenfrequed Aug 2012 #210
xxenderwigginxx Aug 2012 #212
kenfrequed Aug 2012 #218
villager Jul 2012 #151
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #152
villager Aug 2012 #170
friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #171
villager Aug 2012 #188
friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #194
villager Aug 2012 #195
gejohnston Aug 2012 #172
xxenderwigginxx Jul 2012 #153
friendly_iconoclast Jul 2012 #169
friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #176
Ya Basta Aug 2012 #181
DainBramaged Aug 2012 #189
gejohnston Aug 2012 #192
friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #193
xxenderwigginxx Aug 2012 #196
DainBramaged Aug 2012 #197
geckosfeet Aug 2012 #201
gejohnston Aug 2012 #203
xxenderwigginxx Aug 2012 #205
geckosfeet Aug 2012 #207
Walk away Aug 2012 #202
gejohnston Aug 2012 #204
Walk away Aug 2012 #208
gejohnston Aug 2012 #209
xxenderwigginxx Aug 2012 #211
xxenderwigginxx Aug 2012 #213
Walk away Aug 2012 #214
gejohnston Aug 2012 #217
Pholus Aug 2012 #206
xxenderwigginxx Aug 2012 #215
Pholus Aug 2012 #216

Response to xxenderwigginxx (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:05 AM

1. Oh good, another 2A supporter telling us that we're idiots.

Oh, just to mention it, I'm a gun owner.

According to your definition of "regulated" we're failing. There's nothing neat and orderly about what's happening as a result of firearm proliferation in America.



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Response to Scuba (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:14 AM

2. According to the cdc

 

aprox 85 guns a day are fired resulting in a death. (That includes suicides, accidents, and murders) There are an estimated 230 million privately owned guns. So less than 0.5% are involved in a shooting death, and you think thats failing? I wish congress had such a high rate of "failure".

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:52 AM

8. You're bad at math too.

That's over 31,000 gun deaths annually. "Orderly"? I think not.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:00 AM

9. 80 million gun owners

 

230 million guns. 31,000 gun deaths. Approx 2-3 million gun deaths in the U.S. since the year 1900. Less than 1% of gun owners will be involved in a shooting (justified or criminal). I still like those odds.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:29 AM

10. once you remove the suicides

the number is closer to 11K.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:26 PM

37. and a good point to make about suicides...

is that they will find another, perhaps more gruesome way to die, such as jumping in front of a train, jumping off of bridges in front of small children, mixing cleaning chemicals into a toxic gas cloud, endangering others living in their apartment building...

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Response to alabama_for_obama (Reply #37)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:56 PM

53. based on Australian and Canadian experience

hanging. That is also the most common way in Europe.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #53)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:26 PM

111. I see alcohol and drug abuse as slow suicide.

 

I've seen a few people drink themselves to death and another OD while depressed. Not pretty.

Chemically pollute themselves until their bodies quit.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #111)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:37 PM

115. true

good point.

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Response to alabama_for_obama (Reply #37)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 05:51 PM

139. and...

How many of these 'toxic cloud' deaths actually occur in apartment buildings? Answer: Very, very, very few. Most that engage in this form of suicide just use their own cars and shoot for CO asphyxiation. Hardly the same as mixing chemicals of toxic clouds to threaten others. But I love reading absurd arguments following OP's calling on gun control advocates to stop using absurd arguments.

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:10 PM

173. Only "aprox 85 guns a day are fired resulting in a death"?

YES, THAT IS FAILING, or do you consider it statistically insignificant? Keep your guns at home or at the range please. Not on the streets.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #173)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 02:42 PM

174. you are talking to the wrong people

the ones firing the 85 a day (does that include suicides?) don't read DU. Come to think of it, I doubt they read American Rifleman either. High Times and Gang Management Quarterly on the other hand.......................................................

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #174)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:07 PM

175. I don't care what a mosquito reads if it carries death.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #175)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:24 PM

198. +1000

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #175)

Tue Aug 7, 2012, 10:04 PM

200. What?? Are you even reading before you respond?

 

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #173)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:27 PM

177. How many people die per day because of their cars?

 

I've never shot a single person and I carry. I do because there are people who break the laws on Murder and Assault all the time

And because chick's dig Glocks

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Response to Right Hand of Dog (Reply #177)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 09:20 PM

178. chicks dig Glocks

But women prefer gentlemen with Walthers.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #173)

Fri Aug 3, 2012, 02:59 PM

179. 85 vs 230,000,000

 

Last edited Wed Aug 8, 2012, 12:42 AM - Edit history (1)

Yes I consider it statistically insignificant

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Reply #179)

Sat Aug 4, 2012, 05:40 PM

180. You consider 85 gun killing incidents in America every day statistically insignificant.

That makes you part of the problem. I'm sure it's all part of the fun for you. Enjoy your stay.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #180)

Sat Aug 4, 2012, 06:05 PM

182. that is counting suicides

so without guns, that would be an extra 55 self hanging incidents per day.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #182)

Sat Aug 4, 2012, 06:40 PM

183. LOL

Why wouldn't they stab themselves to death? I'm not doing that silly dance again.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #183)

Sat Aug 4, 2012, 06:50 PM

184. If I were you, I wouldn't either

because I have the facts on my side, including history. See Australia and Canada.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #184)

Sat Aug 4, 2012, 07:33 PM

185. The only fact that really counts is success rate. Guns win hands down when available.

Comparing cultures is utterly pointless. I don't think suicide is a reason to restrict gun ownership, but to dismiss it as irrelevant to gun proliferation is disingenuous. It's just an unfortunate fact of life that gun suicides in the US have by far the highest success rate, regardless of all other factors. It ties in with the cultural obsession for instant gratification.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #185)

Sat Aug 4, 2012, 07:56 PM

186. we went through this before,

people who choose guns and ropes are serious
those who choose means where there is a chance they can be saved, not so much. Many countries have higher suicide rates than the US. Japan and South Korea are not known for instant gratification. Either way, it is a mental health issue, not a gun issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #173)

Sun Aug 5, 2012, 09:57 PM

190. If 85 cars a day crashed resulting in people dying, we'd do something about it

Oh wait, we made cars safer, driving TESTS AND LICENSES harder to get, and REGISTRATION and insurance mandatory.


Too bad those little nuggets don't apply to gun ownership.

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Response to DainBramaged (Reply #190)

Sun Aug 5, 2012, 10:40 PM

191. apples and oranges

we don't have that many gun accidents. We might have five deaths by accidents. Of those 85 a day, 59 are suicides and the rest are mostly gangs killing each other where there are LICENSES, REGISTRATION, BANS
so your point fails.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:25 AM

6. not idiots

just clueless.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:30 PM

20. How would you make gun ownership more "neat and orderly?" (n/t)

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Response to Scuba (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:44 PM

47. Ignorant

 

not idiots.

There's a difference.

Idiot by it's traditional definition cannot be fixed. Ignorance always can be.

And what would you call it when people continue to call every weapon used in a crime an automatic (false) assault rifle (false) and probably an AK-47 (false) and are completely unaware of why those statements are wrong? Or when they misrepresent gun facts saying SYG means you can kill anyone for any reason or the fully automatic weapons are readily available or that more guns leads to more gun crime?

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:16 AM

3. IBTL, but thanks for the tutorial.

You forgot #11 - No Flamebait.


Take your lectures elsewhere.

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Response to TheCowsCameHome (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:52 AM

12. This is posted in the RKBA forum, where such threads belong...should not be locked

It has a fair amount of good info in there to help the anti's avoid the side issues they regularly complain about being used in their threads.

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Response to TheCowsCameHome (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:41 PM

45. We have been asked to confine ourselves here

we offend our betters in other forums

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Response to TheCowsCameHome (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:26 PM

118. Every google dump of news articles containing shootings the anti-gun zealots post is flamebait

 

Especially the ones that are posted with no commentary. Every one of those should be locked.

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #118)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:47 PM

157. Yeah, right.

The pro's would never do that.

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:17 AM

4. #6 is factually incorrect.

 

Assault Rifles, Battle Rifles, and Sub-Machine Gun all have federal definitions and all of them are automatic firearms. You cannot have a semi-automatic Assault Rifle, period.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:21 AM

5. good point.

 

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:00 PM

160. The M1Garand is a semi-auto Battle Rifle.

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #160)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:07 PM

162. True, but some context is warranted.

 

It began production in 1936 & is a WWII battle rifle. It fires .30-06 which is the most common round for deer hunting, and its max capacity is 8 and is semi-auto. Apart from having a bayonet attachment, it doesn't differ from any contemporary hunting rifle.

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:39 AM

7. yawn

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:27 PM

119. Bored by the facts are you?

 

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #119)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:45 PM

129. Facts often ARE boreing.

Especially when they negate one's hysterical flailing about before it even gets started.

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:47 AM

11. A question about a comment you made.

"(on a side-note, that "high capacity" mag may hold 100 rounds; but the shooter would have to pull the trigger 100 times, with no jams, and have 100% accuracy 100 times for that to matter) "

If you had to go into a gun fight armed with either the semi-auto M-1 Garand with its normal capacity 8 round en bloc clips or the semi-auto M-14 with its normal capacity 20 round detachable magazine, along with 80 rounds in spare mags or clips, which would you select and why?

Would you have a preference if you had to choose between a California legal AR-15 and a Michigan legal AR-15?

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #11)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:54 AM

13. I think I understand your point

 

and in a fire fight I would choose a higher capacity mag for the obvious reasons. (though in a gun vs gun comparison, some are better than others regardless of capacity) I am more hoping to dispel the myth that because a magazine holds 100 rounds then you can pull the trigger once and fire 100 bullets.

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Reply #13)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:13 PM

16. Okay. Thanks for the clarification!

I'd be thrilled if I ever was able to own an M-1 Garand but I'd consider myself pretty much screwed if I ended up facing off against a bad guy armed with an AR-15 with a couple of fully loaded 30 round magazines even if I had the equivalent number of rounds in en bloc clips for my M-1 as he had rounds for his AR-15.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #16)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:45 PM

21. The last one I saw for sale

 

was a refurb, and it was $1200. Don't think I'll be owning one any time soon. I believe in a static firing position the M-1 Garand does test as more accurate than the AR or the M14. Plus they last FOREVER, but they don't put many rounds down range, and are more difficult to maneuver

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Reply #21)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:29 PM

120. You should check out the CMP, Civilian Marksmanship program

 

I've picked up a few Garands for $300, they are running around $500-$600 now.

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #120)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:43 PM

127. Nice

 

just checked out the site, thanks for the info.

OHHH and this was on the ordering page: "The information you supply on your application will be submitted by the CMP to the FBI National Instant Criminal Check System (NICS) to verify you are not prohibited by Federal, State or Local law from acquiring or possessing a rifle. Your signature on the Purchaser Certification portion of the purchase application authorizes the CMP to initiate the NICS check and authorizes the FBI to inform CMP of the result."

Guess i wont be getting in on that hassle free ordering of guns on the internet.

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Reply #127)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:04 PM

161. No you won't. But they will ship it direct to your door!

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #161)

Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:12 AM

166. I have a C&R Lic so they did ship to my door.

 

But that means I had to jump thru the hoop s to get it, you know background checks, fingerprinting, submitting info to the ATF and Local law enforcement. The kind of stuff the anti-gun zealots want everyone to do every time a gun is purchased.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #16)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:32 PM

41. that would depend on how close you were to one another,

and who had the better optics and skills. I hope none of us ever are in a situation like that, regardless.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #16)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:15 PM

58. You would have on advantage

 

A Garand will turn there cover into concealment.

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:04 PM

14. 10 more

 

The odor of NRA Talking Points (AKA, Big Lies) is awful.

Smells exactly like bullshit.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:16 PM

17. Do you have any particular facts

you disagree with? Or are you just fulla shit?

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Response to armueller2001 (Reply #17)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:56 PM

23. PROVE IT!

 

I asked NRA acolytes to prove a bunch of stuff they made claims about over the last few days, and was mostly ignored.

Since that's what gun-relgionists like to do, I'll do the same to them.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #23)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:41 PM

46. The sky is blue n/t

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Response to bongbong (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:27 PM

19. Perhaps. If so please disprove these "Big Lies." (n/t)

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Response to spin (Reply #19)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:55 PM

22. PROVE IT!

 

I asked NRA acolytes to prove a bunch of stuff they made claims about over the last few days, and was mostly ignored.

Since that's what gun-relgionists like to do, I'll do the same to them.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #22)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:01 PM

24. Are you copying and pasting the same replies to every thread? nt

 

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Response to Reasonable_Argument (Reply #24)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:02 PM

26. No

 

No

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Response to bongbong (Reply #26)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:24 PM

35. Just most of them?

What if those are the same points are made by someone that is a member of a group such as the Liberal Gun Club?

What further questions do you want answered?

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Response to ErikO (Reply #35)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:31 PM

69. Teh Bells Tolls

 

> a group such as the Liberal Gun Club?

Interesting choice of words. Have you been tombstoned yet?

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Response to bongbong (Reply #69)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:32 PM

122. Do you dispute the fact that there is a group of liberal gun owners who have formed a club?

 

Does that offend you so much?

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Response to bongbong (Reply #22)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:02 PM

25. Which points are you referring to as "Big Lies"?

 

I will happily give you more information and sources.

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Reply #25)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:06 PM

27. HILARIOUS!

 

More than half of the NRA Talking Points you parroted are mere opinions. So now you're going to give me "more information and sources" - to do what? Are you going to "prove" some opinions?

GREAT STUFF! Boffo in fact!

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Response to bongbong (Reply #27)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:20 PM

33. Which parts are opinion?

 

The fact you don't agree doesn't automatically make the opposing view an "opinion".

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Response to Reasonable_Argument (Reply #33)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:33 PM

70. Sense & Dense

 

You're kidding, right? You can't tell opinions from facts?

NO one can be that dense.

Well, maybe if their brains are clouded by their gun-relgion...

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Response to bongbong (Reply #70)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:37 PM

71. You haven't yet contributed anything to

 

lend credence to your own position.

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Reply #71)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:40 PM

72. The NRA Talking Point Express

 

> You haven't yet contributed anything to

Funny, that reminds me of gun-relgionists whose posts on DU consist entirely of debunked NRA Talking Points.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #72)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:43 PM

73. Well

 

Considering you're so well versed on the subject, you should probably help out Hoyt in our discussion below. I look forward to hearing your insightful rebuttal.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #72)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:44 PM

75. It should be noted

 

that with the 2nd Amendment having such strong support among the population, pushing gun control to the front of a progressive agenda is a fail for us. The number of people in 1 year effected by not having health insurance is 16 times larger than the number of gun deaths in the past 200 years.

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Reply #75)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:49 PM

78. PROVE IT!

 

> hat with the 2nd Amendment having such strong support among the population

Prove it.

Are you talking about the poll by repig Luntz that found most Americans wanted more gun control? The one where lots more than 50% of gun owners wanted more gun control laws? The one the NRA wouldn't comment on?

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Response to bongbong (Reply #78)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:53 PM

80. I already posted a link to the poll nt

 

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Response to Reasonable_Argument (Reply #80)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:57 PM

86. Where

 

Where is the poll?

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Response to Reasonable_Argument (Reply #89)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:28 PM

112. Polls

 

That poll talks about handguns, not the 2nd Amendment. I was expecting a poll on the 2nd Amendment from the way you stated your claim.

But I can dismiss that as just quibbling, since I have the Luntz repig-run poll showing more Americans & gun-owners want more gun control. So I guess that means gun-owners are more rational about gun control than the avg American.



ON EDIT: I see there is link to a poll that specifically asked about the 2nd Amendment. That can be interpreted as a poll on how well Americans can understand the Constitution, which, after the evisceration of the fourth, doesn't seem very good.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #112)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:29 PM

113. Read the entire site, not just the first graph nt

 

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Response to bongbong (Reply #112)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:35 PM

123. As usual every one of your posts is just

 

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #123)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 06:02 PM

145. Crzay

 

I bet you gun-relgionists hate that poll of gun owners done by the repig Luntz that said a majority were in favor of more gun control.

That's an "Inconvenient Fact".

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Response to bongbong (Reply #72)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:15 PM

163. I wonder how it would be taken if every anti gun post was answered with

with Brady Bunch substituted for NRA. It would be at least as rational as what you are posting.

Your definition of debunked must be interesting...since you never say how and by who.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #70)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:39 PM

125. Apparently one CAN be that dense.

Judging from your posts n this thread, you are the one having the difficulty.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #125)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 05:59 PM

143. LOL

 

So you can't tell the difference between opinions and facts either?

Now I see where the gun-relgionist mentality comes from.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #143)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:15 PM

155. LOL

Are you laughing at yourself?

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Response to bongbong (Reply #22)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:15 PM

106. It is your job to disprove those claims.

Ten of which were made in the OP. To me those ten points were basically accurate and factual but I might be wrong. Convince me that you are right by using facts and statistics.

If your argument is solid you should have little problem. If it is weak I would suggest that you reconsider your viewpoint.

You made the charge:


The odor of NRA Talking Points (AKA, Big Lies) is awful.

Smells exactly like bullshit.


I will agree that much of the propaganda the NRA pushes is propaganda especially when they attempt to portray Obama as being a gun grabber. Overall he has been in favor of gun rights which is why he recieved an "F" rating from the Brady Campaign to


Gun control group gives Obama an ‘F’

By Michael O’Brien - 01/19/10 07:00 AM ET

President Barack Obama on Monday received a failing grade from the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence for running away from gun control.

The group, which endorsed Obama in 2008, gave him an “F” on every issue it scored, including background checks, gun trafficking, guns in public, the federal assault weapons ban, standing up to the gun lobby and leadership.

“It’s been a very disappointing year for us, especially considering what he campaigned on,” the group’s president, Paul Helmke, said during an appearance on MSNBC.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/76717-gun-control-group-gives-obama-an-f








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Response to spin (Reply #106)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:21 PM

108. Oh, OK

 

> It is your job to disprove those claims.

I'll start with #9:

"#9 There's a reason perfectly sane law abiding citizens enjoy going to the range. Guns are fun. No, seriously. "

or maybe #4:

"#4 Claiming that the SCOTUS has misinterpreted the 2A for 200 years is not likely to undo the precedent they have set. (and it just makes you look silly) "

Just how should I disprove claims like those?



Did I ever tell you how much gun-relgionists make me laugh?

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Response to bongbong (Reply #108)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 05:35 PM

135. You would definitely have a hard time proving #9 to me ...



"#9 There's a reason perfectly sane law abiding citizens enjoy going to the range. Guns are fun. No, seriously. "


I enjoyed target shooting handguns for 30 years before I got my concealed weapons permit. It's an enjoyable hobby that is far more challenging then most people understand.

For a while I tried fishing as a hobby and my ex-wife made a comment. She said, "You enjoy shooting far more than you do fishing."

I thought about it and replied, "That's true. When I am fishing I simply sit and wait for a fish to bite. When I go shooting there's far more action."

I could point out that she also enjoyed shooting handguns as did our daughter. We used to journey to a pistol range once a week. I started reloading our own ammunition and tailoring the rounds to our individual handguns to produce the most accurate results. It's a difficult and challenging sport but fairly inexpensive once but you own the firearms and if you reload your ammo, it's far less expensive than golfing or buying a boat and motor to go fishing.

If you have never tried shooting I suggest you find an experienced shooting to introduce you to the sport. You might be very surprised just how much fun it really is.

I've taken a number of people to the range to try shooting and they all enjoyed the experience. Most took their targets home to impress their friends. Some became regular shooters.

As far as number 4 you would have to do some research on the founding fathers and their mindset.


"#4 Claiming that the SCOTUS has misinterpreted the 2A for 200 years is not likely to undo the precedent they have set. (and it just makes you look silly) "


It would require that you take in account that our nation had used firearms to overthrow what they considered (rightly or wrongly) a tyrannical dictatorship run by what they viewed as a foreign monarch and dictator. The American revolution overcame the strongest military in the world at that time and that could largely be attributed to civilian firearm ownership.

But the fact remains that the highest court in the land has ruled in favor of the right for civilians to own firearms. Therefore your opinion is largely irrelevant.

I could also point out that while the current Supreme Court has been basically conservative and has been for years, Roe V Wade hasn't been overturned. A future far more liberal court is not likely to rule that civilians should have no right to own any firearm beyond black powder muskets and single shot rifles as were common in those days.







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Response to bongbong (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:36 PM

43. And yet you are completely ineffective at promoting more gun restrictions.

If its all bullshit, what does that make your position since it ignored by most Democratic and Republican lawmakers -- even by President Obama.

You're person nongrata at the policy table.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #43)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 02:28 PM

67. LOL

 

> You're person nongrata at the policy table.

Oh, shit, and I was waiting for my invite!

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Response to bongbong (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:37 PM

124. If one smells bullshit everywhere they turn...

then the most likely cause is due to one's cranium being stuck in one's rectum.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #124)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 06:00 PM

144. Not everywhere

 

Only on posts from gun-religonists regurgitating NRA Talking Points or Talking Point variants.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #144)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 07:16 PM

156. We both know it applies to you.




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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:09 PM

15. The enemy gate...

is DOWN.

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Response to Callisto32 (Reply #15)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:18 PM

18. HaHa

 

My favorite book. You know theyre making a movie? Hope it doesnt suck.

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Reply #18)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:50 PM

130. The book makes me cry becuase it is so good.

I hope the movie doesn't make me cry because it is so bad.

The best parts of that book occur inside Ender, I fear this won't translate to film so well; so I hope for, but don't expect, much.

It's a book that really speaks to me, I was a gentle young boy with a genius IQ, living with someone that everybody involved now recognizes is probably a sociopath.

Card either lived it, knew someone who lived it, or did a hell of a job with research...

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Response to Callisto32 (Reply #130)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:58 PM

131. I have the same concerns for the movie

 

not sure how his inner dialogue, his confliction about his task, or his relationships with Peter & Valentine will translate to film. You are 100% correct "The best parts of that book occur inside Ender"

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:13 PM

28. Interesting username

Ender Wiggin. One of Orson Scott Card's more famous characters. While some of Card's books are not bad, his politics doesn't exactly jibe with DU. Didn't Card say he was supporting Gingrich earlier this year? And in 2008 didn't he support McCain over Obama?

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Response to auburngrad82 (Reply #28)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:18 PM

32. Its a sci-fi fiction.

 

I also liked L Ron Hubbard's Battlefield Earth, but I am not a follower of Scientology. Does reading an authors works of fiction really equate to agreeing with their personal views?

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Response to auburngrad82 (Reply #28)

Sun Aug 5, 2012, 01:03 PM

187. Aha, I see a Commissar of Political Purity has arrived...

For the sake of our souls and credibility on DU (one in the same, correct?), please help us make the right choices comrade commissar!

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:13 PM

29. Online Gun Sales

While I believe it is our given right to own a firearm, I don't think our founding fathers necessarily intended on us having semi-automatic rifles when they wrote the Declaration. I do think that stricter regulations are necessary, mainly in the online gun sale department.

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Response to electedface (Reply #29)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:22 PM

34. Then

 

Given the intent of the 2nd amendment, should we start reissuing muskets to the military?

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Response to electedface (Reply #29)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:26 PM

38. That video is so much bullshit it makes me cramp

You can NOT just order a gun off the internet. The video is lying.
It has to be sent to your local FFL where you have to fill out a form 4473 and undergo a background check.

I dislike seeing ignorant shit posted.

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Response to Chuuku Davis (Reply #38)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:35 PM

42. this person has posted this same nonsense at least 3 times today.

it's amazing that people will believe whatever is on the internet with no verification of whether it is true or not.

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Response to electedface (Reply #29)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:55 PM

116. Why do you feel it is appropriate to promote lies, distortions and untruths on D.U.?

 

Are you confused, ignorant or pushing an agenda?

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Original post)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:16 PM

30. Why do gun threads keep coming up

I enjoy shooting and own weapons which would scare most here to tears.
I like my MGs and SMGs.
But I don't think any post here will ever change anyone's mind.

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Response to Chuuku Davis (Reply #30)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:24 PM

36. It's better to light a candle than curse the darkness. nt

 

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Response to Chuuku Davis (Reply #30)

Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:37 PM

114. Because it is an entertaining debate ...

and many people love to argue on this forum over a large number of issues.

I used to post on more conservative boards in support of gun rights. Everybody agreed with me. It was not challenging. Unfortunately such forums usually contain comments that I find offensive as I am a Democrat and they are largely Republican.

One day I discovered DU and the Gungeon. I knew that posting on a very liberal and progressive forum in support of gun rights would be very challenging. I encountered a lot of very intelligent posters who had good arguments to support their views. I carefully considered their viewpoint and I had to do a lot of research to support my position. There are good points to be made on both sides of this issue. In my opinion the factual side of the debate is won by the side that supports the Second Amendment. The strongest arguments for the strong gun control side are largely emotional. There is absolutely no doubt that allowing citizens to own firearms can lead to tragedies. It is also true that civilian firearm ownership can save lives.

It's been fun and I have learned a lot. Another plus is that I can post on other forums and groups in DU and I don't feel like I need to take a shower afterward as I did when I read the posts on the more conservative forums.

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Response to xxenderwigginxx (Original post)