HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Topics » Justice & Public Safety » Gun Control & RKBA (Group) » 11 Terrifying Reasons to ...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Sun Jan 1, 2012, 10:10 PM

11 Terrifying Reasons to Close the Gun Show Loophole

Last edited Sun Jan 1, 2012, 10:56 PM - Edit history (1)

The Brady Campaign sent me a fundraising letter with the title I posted above. Apparently it's an old letter because I found a post about it from 2008. http://beta.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=768717 I have never given to gun causes on any side of the issues, so I'm guessing they found me through the DNC.

Here is what it said:

1. Mac-10 $795
2. 10% of the guns used in crimes by juveniles and children were sold at gun shows and flea markets.
3. Handgun $595
4. Buy a gun...no questions asked. 63% of private sellers sold guns to purchasers who said they could not pass a background check
5. Handgun ammunition $12.95
6. "I would not have bought a gun for Eric and Dylan if I had had to give any personal information or submit to any kind o fcheck at all." Robyn Anderson, frond who bought guns at a local gun show for the Columbine shooters.
7. 25%-50% of the vendors at most gun shows are unlicensed dealers.
8. Semi-Auto and Auto Weapons Guides $7.95-$29.95
9. No background checks are required by unlicensed sellers.
10. AK-47 Replacement Parts $4.99-$49.99
11. Assaut weapons are back on the market - get one today at your local gun show.

I thought this letter was fairly weak. The gun prices in 1 and 3 seem expensive to me. 6 seems like an important point. 4 doesn't seem believable. What do you think about this letter? Is it factual?

54 replies, 6331 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 54 replies Author Time Post
Reply 11 Terrifying Reasons to Close the Gun Show Loophole (Original post)
Renew Deal Jan 2012 OP
DonP Jan 2012 #1
TheWraith Jan 2012 #10
rl6214 Jan 2012 #2
gejohnston Jan 2012 #3
Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #4
MichaelHarris Jan 2012 #5
gejohnston Jan 2012 #6
MichaelHarris Jan 2012 #8
gejohnston Jan 2012 #11
MichaelHarris Jan 2012 #14
hack89 Jan 2012 #16
pipoman Jan 2012 #19
Union Scribe Jan 2012 #32
DonP Jan 2012 #7
MichaelHarris Jan 2012 #9
gejohnston Jan 2012 #12
MichaelHarris Jan 2012 #13
hack89 Jan 2012 #17
Angus86 Jan 2012 #18
oneshooter Jan 2012 #20
MichaelHarris Jan 2012 #36
MichaelHarris Jan 2012 #37
oneshooter Jan 2012 #47
MichaelHarris Jan 2012 #34
Angus86 Jan 2012 #43
MichaelHarris Jan 2012 #35
PavePusher Jan 2012 #24
S_B_Jackson Jan 2012 #28
PavePusher Jan 2012 #30
MichaelHarris Jan 2012 #38
Marengo Jan 2012 #41
PavePusher Jan 2012 #51
thumpandclunk Jan 2012 #33
one-eyed fat man Jan 2012 #23
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #26
MichaelHarris Jan 2012 #39
Marengo Jan 2012 #40
Marengo Jan 2012 #42
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #44
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #21
Remmah2 Jan 2012 #49
PuffedMica Jan 2012 #15
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #22
Pacafishmate Jan 2012 #25
SteveW Jan 2012 #27
burf Jan 2012 #29
Union Scribe Jan 2012 #31
Remmah2 Jan 2012 #45
Renew Deal Jan 2012 #46
Remmah2 Jan 2012 #48
Remmah2 Jan 2012 #50
ileus Jan 2012 #52
Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #53
Euromutt Jan 2012 #54

Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Sun Jan 1, 2012, 10:34 PM

1. Brady - "Recycling lies for the ignorant since 1990"

That would make a nice bumper sticker.

But since they've laid off most of their PR group last year, they probably don't have any writers left on staff to update their copy.

The folks at the Joyce Foundation just aren't coming across like they used to I guess.

A few comments:

#1 IMHO piece of crap gun

#2 That 10% number seems really high based on what the FBI says.

#3 "Handgun $595", sounds like a lot for a used Charter Arms revolver and a good price for a Kimber 1911. What's the point?

#4 See #10 below.

#5 $12.95 a box? I wish!

#6 She broke several laws and did prison time for it.

#7 Yes, when you include people like the jerky vendors the old couple selling sandwiches, the Philipino family that make belts and holsters at home and the guy who sells that stuff to fogproof your glasses as "unlicensed dealers" the way they do to make it sound scarier.

#8 "Guides" are books. Are they dangerous now too?

#9 Background checks are ONLY ALLOWED for licensed sellers. We call the other kind "private citizens".

#10 Don't know about AK parts, I'm an AR guy. But the idea of finding parts for perfectly legal guns at a gun show isn't all that weird.

#11 Yes, they are since 2004, and they are now the most popular selling rifles in America and crime with all rifles is still less than 3%. What's their point?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DonP (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 01:38 AM

10. Re: #2, the FBI says that the number of crime guns from shows is around 1%.

Not 10%.

As for the rest, I agree with DonP, it's nothing more or less than trying to terrify people who don't know anything on the subject, and create an aura of believing that it's some kind of giant scary free fire zone handing out guns to people coming to murder your children.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Sun Jan 1, 2012, 10:56 PM

2. Is it factual?

 

1. Mac-10 $795

What's the point?

2. 10% of the guns used in crimes by juveniles and children were sold at gun shows and flea markets.

Cite to proof

3. Handgun $595

Yeah, average handgun price regardless of where you buy it.

4. Buy a gun...no questions asked. 63% of private sellers sold guns to purchasers who said they could not pass a background check

Private sellers are not required to ask questions, 63% cite to proof

5. Handgun ammunition $12.95

What type? I can buy 9mm at Academy sports for cheaper than that. .40 cal is a little more expensive as is .45

6. "I would not have bought a gun for Eric and Dylan if I had had to give any personal information or submit to any kind o fcheck at all." Robyn Anderson, frond who bought guns at a local gun show for the Columbine shooters.

Private sellers are not required to ask for information, would have been the same if they had purchased out of the back of a car, in a bar, somebodies house...

7. 25%-50% of the vendors at most gun shows are unlicensed dealers.

"Dealers" are required to be licensed, private sellers are not, there is no such thing as an "unlicensed dealer"

8. Semi-Auto and Auto Weapons Guides $7.95-$29.95

Books? Big deal.

9. No background checks are required by unlicensed sellers.

See question 6

10. AK-47 Replacement Parts $4.99-$49.99

Big deal, you can get parts anywhere, they are not illegal to own or sell. If you are selling a lower reciever, that is the part that makes it a gun and all of the rules and regulations for buying and selling a gun apply.

11. Assaut weapons are back on the market - get one today at your local gun show.

"Assault weapons" is a term made up by the anti-gun zealots and can apply to any weapon, they can be bought at any gun shop and all of the rules and regulations for buying and selling apply.

I thought this letter was fairly week. The gun prices in 1 and 3 seem expensive to me. 6 seems like an important point. 4 doesn't seem believable. What do you think about this letter? Is it factual?

Is it factual? Some is, some isn't. The prices may be but the rest is just BS.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Sun Jan 1, 2012, 11:02 PM

3. let's see

Quite cheap for a real MAC-10, which is regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934, (registration, months long background check regardless where you buy it). The semi? Big clunky, inaccurate pistol that I have never actually seen at a range or anywhere else. I don't think they are still being made.

Not what the FBI says, either way that would still be violating federal and state laws (federal crime for a private person to sell a pistol to anyone under 18)

Depends on the gun.

Where on earth would they come up with this?

depends

Can't improve on the rest.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Sun Jan 1, 2012, 11:08 PM

4. what a load of crap! prepared to be terrified --

::BOO::






Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Sun Jan 1, 2012, 11:25 PM

5. It is very factual

you and almost everyone you know, regardless of sanity or criminal history can buy a gun at a gun show. No questions asked. I've seen everything you've mentioned sold at gun stores and worse. I urge anyone who doubts this to just attend a gun show. Go to any booth and ask to buy a gun, if they require a check move to the next booth. YOU WILL find a booth or or person WHO WILL sell you a gun without a check. It happens every single day all across America.

You have seen the "cite to proof" claim in your thread. Here's the deal on that. The members here who support the NRA actually support laws to keep you from finding that proof out. Under current laws the "proof" in not available. Think about it. Private sales are not tracked, just the way the members here and the NRA want it. We all know guns are bought and sold at gun shows and used in crimes by criminals, it's the easiest source. Ask those who ask you for "proof" if they are will to let every single gun sale be logged and tracked. You'll soon see why we can't have the truth.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 1, 2012, 11:46 PM

6. actually, no it is not

you and almost everyone you know, regardless of sanity or criminal history can buy a gun at a gun show. No questions asked. I've seen everything you've mentioned sold at gun stores and worse.

If you saw this in gun stores, did you call the ATF hotline? If not, why not?

Go to any booth and ask to buy a gun, if they require a check move to the next booth. YOU WILL find a booth or or person WHO WILL sell you a gun without a check. It happens every single day all across America

FFLs are required, non FFLs are not allowed even if they wanted to.

Private sales are not tracked, just the way the members here and the NRA want it. We all know guns are bought and sold at gun shows and used in crimes by criminals, it's the easiest source.

Don't blame us, blame the commerce clause, we are talking about intra-state private sales.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gejohnston (Reply #6)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 12:04 AM

8. Why are you being dishonest?

Didn't you see that we are talking about gun shows? Your words, "If you saw this in gun stores, did you call the ATF hotline? If not, why not?"

My words, "you and almost everyone you know, regardless of sanity or criminal history can buy a gun at a gun show. "

Why did you feel the need to completely change the discussion and location? No need to answer, we all know the truth you just wanted to hide it a little more.

Are you saying people who have booths MUST HAVE FFLs? I know for a fact that's not true. I've bought guns from booths at gun shows and had to show nothing! You know this is true, why lie about it? No need to answer, we all know the truth. Anyone can sell a gun without an FFL almost anywhere, you know that's true.

It's not the commerce clause gunius, it's the NRA blocking legislation to STOP GUN SALE LOOPHOLES. You also know that's true.

You didn't even start your response honestly when you tried to change the location to gun store, that was very telling. You couldn't even stay on topic for your first sentence. You had to basically lie.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 02:23 AM

11. in post five

you typed stores, I took it at face value. Either way, it is a federal crime to sell a gun to anyone you know is a prohibited person.

Most of the ones I have been to are FFLs. Either way, the problem is the commerce clause because you are talking about intra-state private sales. Some states mandate using FFL to broker, call your state leg now. How would you enforce it? Ban all private sales?
It is a private sale regardless of where it takes place. Either way, the Brady Bill makes private individuals using NICS illegal. NICS was the NRA's idea because the original background check in Brady Bill was struck down because it violated 10A because it was an unfunded mandate to local law enforcement by the feds.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gejohnston (Reply #11)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 08:02 AM

14. you really need to educate yourself

as to what can happen at gun shows. There are 50 states, each has it owns laws governing them. In most states anyone can rent a booth without an FFL and sell guns. It happens every day. No checks, no questions, just cash. Go try it. I have on many occasions. It's called a loophole.

Nice dodge btw, the OP was about gun shows, not gun stores. My post was about gun shows, not gun stores. I have a typo in my post but my first usage was gun show. Of course you knew that but well, ya know.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #14)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 09:23 AM

16. They can also sell on the internet, in newspaper classifieds, in the parking lot

gun shows are very infrequent. Where do you think people are conducting private sales of guns when there is no gun show?

It is a state issue - each state needs to decide how they want to regulate the practice. The problem is funding - there are better places to spend scarce dollars.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 10:07 AM

19. Who's being dishonest here?

Maybe the OP? (not the poster, the info in the Brady letter) You did say this, "I've seen everything you've mentioned sold at gun stores and worse.", you later claim is a typo, how is this poster to know if it is a typo or not? Blaming him, in fact calling him dishonest, for taking your post at face value? Do you think he should be able to read your mind?

And whats up with your refusal to acknowledge that the dishonest term "gun show loophole" is in fact the commerce clause restriction on federal government? No "loophole" at all? If you would like the commerce clause to be repealed just say so already.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 05:19 PM

32. You caused the confusion, then called a poster a liar

because of what was your own fault. I think an apology is in order.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 12:04 AM

7. "Every single day" - Really, where do you live?

WOW! I've told you a billion times to avoid hyperbole!

Around here you might have a gun show every other month for 1 or 2 days on a wekend. They pretty much shut down in the Summer altogether.

Of course the Brady folks neglect to mention that private sellers are not allowed to have a booth in Illinois and other states, only FFLs can sell firearms. But that doesn't sound nearly as scary as including beef jerky sales booths as "unlicensed dealers" at a gun show does it?

Now why would the FBI lie about the sources of crime guns when they could just turn to you for the "facts"? The last time I looked at the FBI report on sources of crime guns, gun shows were near the bottom of the list for criminals. But what the fuck do those A-holes at the FBI know, right? They need to trust in Brady, using decade old information for their "facts".

But tell us again, where you have gun shows "Every Single Day"? Some of us may consider moving or going there for all our machine gun needs.

Let me guess, another poster who knows all about gun shows ... but never actually has been to any?

One last question, is it hard to walk around with your pants flaming and smoking like that? Does it chafe?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DonP (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 12:06 AM

9. not at all

check my history. I've bought guns in gun shows in at least 5 states. Last purchase was in Idaho at a gun show from a booth. No check, no questions, no ID. Seller had at least 40 guns for sale.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 02:26 AM

12. handguns?

unless you are an Idaho resident, you just admitted to committing a federal crime unless it was sent to you via FFL. ATF hotline?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gejohnston (Reply #12)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 07:57 AM

13. you should really

research before you post. Do you know Idaho law at all? It is legal for people to sell guns at gun shows without an FFL. They do not have to check anything. Give um money, they give you a gun. Look it up. Check before you make yourself look stupid. This is what I am against. I did it to prove to a friend that it happens and it is legal. He was like you, he thought it was illegal. I'm sure some of your fellow forums members will correct you.

If you're outraged, well you sound like you are because someone out of state bought a gun in Idaho without a check, then stop it. I promise you it's legal, do you want to stop it? My guess is you don't.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 09:36 AM

17. There are restrictions

1. They cannot sell to out of state buyers (such sales are controlled by Federal regulation)
2. They cannot sell to minors - state law
3. They cannot sell to known felons - state law


Additionally, anyone who makes a living selling guns has to have a FFL. The only legal private sales would be by a resident of Idaho to another resident of Idaho. Federal law forbids them from doing background checks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 10:03 AM

18. Actually.... you committed a federal crime

Legal face to face sales by private citizens are the norm in most states, however both buyer and seller MUST be residents of the same state for it to be legal. So, unless you were a resident of Idaho at the time, you violated federal law when you purchased that gun, and any other guns you may have purchased the same way.

Here's a run-down of what is legal/illegal by federal law in regards to private firearms sales:
1. You CANNOT conduct a private firearm sale with a resident of another state, period. It doesn't matter whether it's a handgun or rifle/shotgun, this is illegal, and a felony I believe.
2. You can purchase a long gun (rifle/shotgun) from a licensed FFL dealer in any state, as long as you follow the laws of both states when conducting the sale.
3. You CANNOT purchase a handgun without going through a licensed FFL in YOUR state of residence. If you want a handgun from out of state, you must have the gun shipped to an FFL in your state so that they can transfer it to you.

So, basically you've just admitted to willfully violating federal firearms law.

Congratulations.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angus86 (Reply #18)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 10:58 AM

20. So he is asking us to believe the word of an admitted felon? n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oneshooter (Reply #20)


Response to oneshooter (Reply #20)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 12:03 AM

37. so you agree!

felonies are being committed at gun shows!! Thank you so much for finally seeing the truth.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #37)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 11:14 AM

47. No. You commited a felony, no matter the whys and reasons.

Thus you are a federal felon. Knowing that, why haven't you turned yourself into the proper authorities?
Or do you believe that you are above the law?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angus86 (Reply #18)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 11:49 PM

34. are you now saying

that sellers are violating laws at gun shows? I thought that didn't happen.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #34)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 09:10 AM

43. Actually, YOU were the one committing a felony

Unless the seller had reason to believe that you were either 1. a prohibited person or 2. a resident of another state, then what he did was legal. Until there is a way for private individuals to access NICS, there would be no way for him to know for sure. I am a huge fan of allowing private individuals to access the NICS system, as long as it is voluntary and not mandatory (the commerce clause prevents the federal government from regulating intra-state private sales).

YOU on the other hand willfully committed a felony because you bought a gun in a private sale outside your state of residence. Stop trying to blame those of us who obey the law when criminals like yourself are willing to break the law to obtain guns. You certainly don't seem too broken up about it, maybe you knew it was a crime all along?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angus86 (Reply #18)


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 12:27 PM

24. "you should really research before you post."

 

If you bought a handgun outside your state of residence, and did not go through at least two FFL's (one in the purchasing state, shipping directly to an FFL in your state of residence), you have commited a Federal Felony. Are you admitting to commiting a Federal Felony?

If it was a long-gun, directly from an FFL, perfectly legal and not at all criminal.

If you bought outside your state of residence from a private party, and did not go through an FFL, you are again a Federal Felon.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#gca-unlicensed-transfer

If you want to change that law, get busy writing and pushing your legislation proposals. Perhaps you can force the Brady's to stop resisting Citizen access to the NICS system....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PavePusher (Reply #24)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 03:12 PM

28. While i support the majority of your response,

you're incorrect about the number of FFLs that need be involved.

Assuming that MichaelHarris purchased a pistol from a private individual in a state in which he did not live, that private seller may legally ship (via a private carrier such as FedEx or UPS) to a FFL in the purchaser's home-state who would require MichaelHarris to complete the Form4473 and the necessary NICS background check before transferring the pistol to him.

Of course, many FFLs will not accept shipments from non-FFLs, but that is a their choice, not a legal requirement.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to S_B_Jackson (Reply #28)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 04:19 PM

30. Oops, yes, you are correct.

 

I forgot that scenario.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PavePusher (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 12:04 AM

38. finally you agree!

Felonies are being committed by sellers at gun shows. How hard was that? Now do you want to stop it?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 08:01 AM

41. Did YOU commit a felony as a BUYER Michael?

"Unknowingly" does not absolve you of any responsibility. If the transaction did occur as you describe, then the seller was indeed violating the law.

However...

So were you, and your crime is as serious as the sellers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 12:36 PM

51. Depends on if the buyers lied or not.

 

Not enough facts in evidence.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 07:44 PM

33. Actually, buying a long gun across state lines requires the purchase be made through an FFL.

And then you can only buy from a contiguous state which allows the practice. Otherwise, you buy the gun at the show, the federally licensed seller then ships it to another federally licensed seller who then, prior to handing over your firearm, has you fill out a 4473 and then you undergo a NICS check. If you just drove to another state and bought a gun FTF and went home with it, you have committed a felony-the very same kind of felony you seem so jazzed up to see prosecuted. Double standards seem to abound with the anti-gunners..

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 12:22 PM

23. Admitting to how many felonies?

"I've bought guns in gun shows in at least 5 states."

In which of those states were you a bona fide resident?

If you purchased a firearm in a state other than your own, without having that firearm transaction handled and a NICS check performed by an FFL in the state where you reside you have committed a felony.

If you bought a firearm from an individual in another state and failed to disclose to them you were not a resident, you committed a felony.

So which other felonies are you gleefully willing to commit as long as they are to YOUR advantage?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 01:22 PM

26. Were you a resident of those states when you bought guns in them?

If not, you've just admitted to committing at least one Federal felony, and possibly some state ones (depending on the state).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #26)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 12:12 AM

39. So no you say

felonies are happening at gun show. great!! That's what we have been saying all along. I have bought one, check the past forum post, in Idaho. The seller asked no questions, no ID, no nothing. I've since sold the gun. My point here is I was wrong but, in the bigger picture, I've now seen sellers breaking federal laws at gun shows. Sure I did it unknowingly but you and I both know private sales happen daily across state lines. Now that I've shown you it happens what do you want to do about it?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 07:46 AM

40. What about the other four out-of-state purchases you referenced?

Was an FFL transfer involved in any of those, or or did you make four additional "mistakes" as well?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 08:05 AM

42. Unknowingly? In post 13 you said "I did it to prove to a friend that it happens and it is legal"

So, which is it? A mistake, or intentional to prove a point?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 10:28 AM

44. Open up the NICS to private sellers, with a "safe harbor" provision for those sellers who use it.

Of course, that would undermine the case for banning private sales. I suppose that's why none of the various gun control orgs supported
the President's proposals. Nor did Sara Brady, Paul Helmke, Dianne Feinstein, Michael Bloomberg, or Josh Sugarmann. From March:

http://azstarnet.com/article_011e7118-8951-5206-a878-39bfbc9dc89d.html#ixzz1hwyfqhO7

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=5378

President Obama: We must seek agreement on gun reforms

President Barack Obama Special To The Arizona Daily Star | Posted: Sunday, March 13, 2011 12:00 am

***snip***

•First, we should begin by enforcing laws that are already on the books. The National Instant Criminal Background Check System is the filter that's supposed to stop the wrong people from getting their hands on a gun. Bipartisan legislation four years ago was supposed to strengthen this system, but it hasn't been properly implemented. It relies on data supplied by states - but that data is often incomplete and inadequate. We must do better.

• Second, we should in fact reward the states that provide the best data - and therefore do the most to protect our citizens.

• Third, we should make the system faster and nimbler. We should provide an instant, accurate, comprehensive and consistent system for background checks to sellers who want to do the right thing, and make sure that criminals can't escape it....


Do you support our President's proposals as given, or do you want to ban private sales altogether?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #5)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 11:10 AM

21. More nonsense from the Brady Bunch and you

Its crap and you should know better by now to support such lies

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MichaelHarris (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 11:25 AM

49. I was at the Erie, PA gun show Saturday.

 

It ain't so Joe.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 08:06 AM

15. 25%-50% of the vendors at most gun shows are unlicensed dealers

50% seems a little low.

The last gun show I went to over half the tables were people selling knives, patches, camo clothing, and survival food.

There was even one vendor selling 'non hybrid’ vegetable seeds. Not a gun in sight on his table.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 11:34 AM

22. Based on your claim...

...that you received this letter and the type of campaign the Brady Bunch has engaged in, it seems quite factual that it is from them. As for the details of those 11 points they are a mix of truth and lies, most of which are irrelevant.

Regarding #6:

Several months before the Columbine massacre, the killers obtained firearms from two suppliers. The first was a 22-year-old Columbine graduate named Mark Manes (ironically, the son of a longtime Handgun Control, Inc., activist). Manes bought a pistol at a gun show and gave it to the two killers (who were under 18 at the time). Colorado law prohibits giving handguns to juveniles, with certain exceptions, and Manes is currently serving time (now released) for this offense in a Colorado prison. The second supplier was an 18-year-old fellow student at Columbine, Robyn Anderson, who bought three long guns for the killers at a Denver-area gun show in December 1998.
< http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Mags/WhatIfWeHadTakenColumbineSeriously.htm >

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 12:35 PM

25. I cheer the death of the gun control lobby.

 

These fools are becoming more irrelevant with each passing day.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 01:57 PM

27. Just some points to augment other posts...

1. A full-auto MAC 10 (lousy as they are) would sell for several/many thousands of dollars; the price cited is probably for a semi-auto look alike -- and too much for what you get.

2. It is telling that "gun shows" have joined "flea markets" as bad guys. This should be a clue: ANYBODY can sell a firearm to another individual without going through NICS b.g. tests; the tests are for Federal Firearms Licensees ONLY, just as the law prescribes, and individuals cannot access the NICS system, even if they wanted to. Making the NICS requirement universal has been a topic treated seriously by 2A-defenders in this forum/group for years. Note also that the Brady Center signed off on the original NICS legislation. Why are they complaining now?

6. Assuming the accuracy of the statement, this is a "straw purchase," and the "friend" could be subject to arrest.

7. I don't know what constitutes "unlicensed dealers." If you sell a shotgun to a friend, would you consider yourself a dealer?

11. "Assault weapons,"* a term of art infrequently used by armorers, gun writers, etc., never LEFT the market, and you can get a reasonable facsimile at Academy Sports and Outdoors and other licensed gun-dealers, all quite legally and with a NICS test.
_____________

*"Assault weapons—just like armor-piercing bullets, machine guns, and plastic firearms—are a new topic. The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun—can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons. In addition, few people can envision a practical use for these weapons."

--Josh Sugarmann of the Violence Policy Center, and a Federal Firearms Licensee.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 03:16 PM

29. Isn't it the anti gunners who are always

touting the pro gunners as "fear mongerers"? But I guess "Terrifying" is alright because the Brady Bunch uses it.

Sheeesh!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Mon Jan 2, 2012, 05:17 PM

31. They padded that list, mighty puffy.

I'm not overly horrified that ammunition, manuals and spare parts are sold at gun shows. Their only real point is number 9, which is why I support opening NICS to private sellers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 10:33 AM

45. Seems like the Brady Campaign objects to the first amendment as well.

 

No surprise there.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Remmah2 (Reply #45)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 10:56 AM

46. Are you talking about the "Weapons Guides?"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Reply #46)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 11:22 AM

48. Yep

 

Some may not like it, but it is what it is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 11:42 AM

50. 2. 10% of the guns used in crimes by juveniles and children were sold at gun shows and flea markets.

 

How come they don't call it the flea market loop hole then?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 02:35 PM

52. what hairshirt come up with this goofyassed list...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Tue Jan 3, 2012, 02:40 PM

53. Fact checking

 

1. Mac-10 $795

Here is a link to an actual Class III, fully-automatic, MAC-10. It's "buy now" price is $4000.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=267014839

Searching the above site for completed auctions for semi-automatic versions of this pistol show prices that range from $600-$1000.

Assessment: Accurate for semi-automatic variants of the MAC-10 pistol

2. 10% of the guns used in crimes by juveniles and children were sold at gun shows and flea markets.

Since juveniles and children cannot buy firearms from any source, I find this unlikely. It's possible that the guns they used were bought by adults at gun shows or flea markets, and that the juveniles and children then got their hands on them, but this has nothing to do with where they were purchased.

3. Handgun $595

This sounds like a reasonable average handgun price for a quality, new firearm.

4. Buy a gun...no questions asked. 63% of private sellers sold guns to purchasers who said they could not pass a background check

Probably true. The federal government cannot regulate private property sales between individuals, as this is a state issue. Some states regulate private firearm sales, most do not. So any criminal who wants to buy a firearm need only open his local Penny Saver and make arrangements to meet the buyer at the local Walmart parking lot with cash in hand. Private sellers cannot perform NICS background checks even if they wanted to as the system is not open to the public. Sellers could force buyers to go to the local gun store and do an FFL transfer (with background check), but the dealer would charge a fee for this, probably $25-$100, depending on the gun store. Most people don't bother with the paperwork and expense.

5. Handgun ammunition $12.95

Depends on the amount and type of ammunition. You used to be able to buy a box of 50 .45 APC for $12.95, but not so much anymore. Today on MidwayUSA, a 50-round box of standard .45 ACP ball ammo is $28.

However, I reload my own .45ACP for about $2 per 50.

6. "I would not have bought a gun for Eric and Dylan if I had had to give any personal information or submit to any kind o fcheck at all." Robyn Anderson, frond who bought guns at a local gun show for the Columbine shooters.

Many people refuse to submit personal information in order to buy firearms, which is why they buy through private individuals rather than through dealers.

7. 25%-50% of the vendors at most gun shows are unlicensed dealers.

Private individuals can rent tables at gun shows and sell firearms in many states without being a licensed dealer. However, if you regularly engage in the business of selling firearms without a license, you risk the wrath of the BATFE, with possible fines and prison sentences. Exactly how many firearms you can sell from your private collection before you are considered being "in the business" is up for debate.

8. Semi-Auto and Auto Weapons Guides $7.95-$29.95

Or free on the internet. Here are instructions on how to build a Sten sub-machine gun with scrap metal and very low-tech tools like a drill press and some files:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scribd.com%2Fdoc%2F2624298%2Fsten-mk2-complete-machine-instructions&ei=wVgDT-3gDMK2twfekKTQBg&usg=AFQjCNG2M29CgRes3ajzhtf9qa9tOJMQWA

9. No background checks are required by unlicensed sellers.

Not only are they not required, the cannot be required by the federal government. The federal government has no power to regulate internal state trade, including the private sale of property between individuals.

10. AK-47 Replacement Parts $4.99-$49.99

I'm not sure what kind of parts were are talking about, but yes, you can buy any parts for an AK-47.

Note, however, that if you are found to be in possession of fully-automatic parts and a receiver (firearm) capable of using them, even if they are not assembled together you are considered in possession of a machine gun. Done illegally, this can get you years in federal prison.

11. Assaut weapons are back on the market - get one today at your local gun show.

"Assault weapons", that is, civilian, semi-automatic variants of military weapons, never went off the market, even during the assault weapon "ban". All the ban did was force manufacturers and importers and sellers of assault weapons to make small cosmetic changes to the weapons, or change the number of US-made parts in order to comply with the law.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Renew Deal (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2012, 04:24 PM

54. Some of this ground has already been covered, but I'll try salting the furrows

1. Mac-10 $795

If we're talking a sub-machine gun, bullshit. If we're talking some semi-auto-only derivative, they're asking at least $300 too much.
2. 10% of the guns used in crimes by juveniles and children were sold at gun shows and flea markets.

Sold to whom? To some straw purchaser acting for a trafficker who diverted the guns into the black market?
3. Handgun $595

Depending on the gun, that's either a ripoff or a really good deal. Glocks cost less new.
4. Buy a gun...no questions asked. 63% of private sellers sold guns to purchasers who said they could not pass a background check

For starters, not being able to pass a background check does not necessarily mean one is a prohibited person. I'd also like to see some evidence for that 63% claim.
5. Handgun ammunition $12.95

How many rounds? What caliber? New, remanufactured (i.e. reloaded by an established ammunition manufacturer), or hand-loaded by some guy in his toolshed?
6. "I would not have bought a gun for Eric and Dylan if I had had to give any personal information or submit to any kind of check at all." Robyn Anderson, frond who bought guns at a local gun show for the Columbine shooters.

Well, yeah, because by buying the guns for Harris and Klebold (with their money), she was committing a criminal offense. I cannot comprehend why she was never prosecuted for that, incidentally.
7. 25%-50% of the vendors at most gun shows are unlicensed dealers.

No, they're not, because there's no such thing as a legal "unlicensed dealer." Either you're "in the business of trading in firearms," which requires an FFL (without which you'd be committing a federal felony), or you're not in which case you're an "unlicensed seller." The Brady letter uses the latter term twice (in items #4 and #9), so they're evidently familiar with it.
8. Semi-Auto and Auto Weapons Guides $7.95-$29.95

We're talking about books; books with instructions on how to disassemble, clean, reassemble, and operate the weapon, particularly for older and military surplus weapons that didn't come with a manual.
9. No background checks are required by unlicensed sellers.

Unlicensed sellers are unable to conduct background checks because only FFLs have access to NICS.
10. AK-47 Replacement Parts $4.99-$49.99

So? How much should a set of rivets or springs cost (even an admittedly very specialized set)? Besides, federal law precludes a Theseus' Paradox situation (aka Washington's/Lincoln's/grandfather's axe, Jeannot's knife, or Trigger's broom; i.e. if every component part of an item is replaced, is it still the same item?) by stating that one part of a firearm (on handguns usually the frame and on long guns usually the receiver) is legally "the firearm" and is regulated and controlled as if it were a complete firearm. Thus, to transfer a stripped lower receiver for, say, an AR or AK variant, in interstate commerce, you have to ship it to or from a Federal Firearm Licensee, even though it's a piece of metal with no moving parts. Thus, you cannot build a complete rifle out of replacement parts.
11. Assault weapons are back on the market - get one today at your local gun show.

So-called "assault weapons" were never off the market. It was illegal to manufacture or import them for ten years, but the existing ones could be transferred. In the interim, weapons that were mechanically identical to those classed as "assault weapons" but lacked certain mostly cosmetic features were still manufactured. Moreover, "assault weapon" is the "partial birth abortion" of the gun control debate: a term with no established meaning that's used to scare the undecided.

That's the purpose of this entire letter, incidentally. Every statement is, at best, partially true but worded in a way to make it sound scarier than it is if you don't understand the context.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread