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Fri Jun 29, 2012, 01:11 PM

Philadelphia officials should identify rogue gun sellers

A Kensington 18-year-old accidentally took his own life earlier this month, according to news reports, when he put a handgun that he did not know was loaded to his head and fired it on a dare during an online video chat. The media coverage of the shooting focused on the most unusual aspect of the story the online dare but the more important issue is how the gun got into the teenager's hand.

According to one report, the weapon was an illegal handgun obtained by the youth's 22-year-old brother, who was asleep in the same room when the shooting took place. (Police have not filed charges in the shooting.) If that's the case, it was likely purchased on the street through the city's extensive illicit firearms network, and the dead teen would be alive if not for an illegal gun. That's the real tragedy in this case, and it's a tragedy that is repeated endlessly in Philadelphia, where the availability of illegal guns and the carnage they reap are devastating families and neighborhoods.

Mayor Nutter has loudly and repeatedly expressed outrage at the daily death and destruction visited on the city by illegal guns, warning of the toll taken particularly on a generation of African American men. We at Heeding God's Call, a faith-based movement to prevent gun violence, share his sentiments. The highly efficient illegal gun trade which depends on gun retailers who sell to straw buyers and gun traffickers, who then resell them to people on the street who do not have to undergo background checks deserves our disgust, anger, and efforts to eliminate it.

To the mostly white gun dealers who sell to the people who resell guns on the street, this is all about sales and profits. But to the communities of color where these guns are used, it's about injury, death, and devastation.

http://articles.philly.com/2012-06-28/news/32458078_1_illegal-guns-gun-retailers-gun-violence

26 replies, 2195 views

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Arrow 26 replies Author Time Post
Reply Philadelphia officials should identify rogue gun sellers (Original post)
SecularMotion Jun 2012 OP
ileus Jun 2012 #1
Clames Jun 2012 #2
ManiacJoe Jun 2012 #4
hack89 Jun 2012 #3
Clames Jun 2012 #5
ManiacJoe Jun 2012 #6
Remmah2 Jun 2012 #8
Remmah2 Jun 2012 #7
Meiko Jun 2012 #9
Callisto32 Jun 2012 #17
DonP Jun 2012 #10
NewMoonTherian Jun 2012 #12
Callisto32 Jun 2012 #14
PavePusher Jun 2012 #23
Callisto32 Jun 2012 #11
DonP Jun 2012 #15
Callisto32 Jun 2012 #16
DonP Jun 2012 #19
NewMoonTherian Jun 2012 #13
Callisto32 Jun 2012 #18
DonP Jun 2012 #20
Callisto32 Jun 2012 #21
Meiko Jun 2012 #24
GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #25
slackmaster Jun 2012 #22
Trunk Monkey Jun 2012 #26

Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 01:15 PM

1. Why do guns keep making their owners misuse them?

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 02:03 PM

2. What about this gun is "illegal"?

 

The fact it existed is probably enough for the usual VPC/MAIG/Brady Campaign/LCAV parrots to call it illegal but according to the laws there a 22 yo is old enough to own a handgun. Another ignorant article written by somebody who doesn't stop for pesky facts...

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Response to Clames (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 02:16 PM

4. They waited until the end of the article to admit they do not know if the gun was illegal or not.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 02:11 PM

3. And the solution is .... ? nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 02:17 PM

5. Don't bother asking.

 

This OP isn't in the habit of responding or initiating discussion in the topic they post. Much like the other serial drive-by poster jpak, expect nothing more strenuous than a copy-paste-disappear exercise.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 02:17 PM

6. Did I miss the part of the article where they call for

the illegal, straw purchasers to be prosecuted?

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 02:19 PM

8. Only at the gun buy backs. nt

 

nt

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 02:18 PM

7. Immature people.

 

Immature people should not have access to guns, cars, elected positions, public computer access nor should they make babies.


"To the mostly white gun dealers"; a little journalistic racism?

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 03:01 PM

9. I held an

 

FFL for years, I have sold and transferred many weapons of all types. I have been investigated from time to time when a gun I sold showed up at a crime scene. As long as my required paperwork was correct I had nothing to worry about. When a customer wanted to buy a handgun and did not have a CCW. He filled out a 4473, I did a NICS background check and if the check came back OK he was cleared to purchase the weapon, no waiting period. I would check his ID (usually a drivers license)against the 4473 if the address did not match the sale would be denied. If the address on your drivers license is incorrect(very common problem) I would not sell the gun to the individual, it used to make people as mad as hell but I had no choice. The penalties for selling a weapon on bad ID are really stiff.

If the person had a CCW it was easy. Fill out the 4473, check all ID's, no NICS check. Pay and you are out the door.

The point being that the retailer has no idea if the gun Joe Smoe just bought is for somebody else, we as FFL's are not required to ask. It's like the ID, what if the drivers license is fake? how am I going to know I am not a forensics examiner. Unless the fake ID was really bad it might be used over and over again before it's discovered. If someone wants to purchase numerous handguns it would be easy for them to travel around a large metropolitan area visiting gun stores and buying guns. I don't know how many guns could be bought and resold before the ATF caught wind of what was going on, but I imagine quite a few.

In the past there was a movement to get newspapers not to advertise private firearms sales. The campaign had limited success however and mostly it was the larger papers that enacted the ban. If you take a look at a sampling of papers from across the country you will notice that the buying and selling of private firearms is alive and well,,,,Anyone up for a road trip.

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Response to Meiko (Reply #9)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 03:54 PM

17. I once tried to sell a .22 revolver via classified add.

Nie wieder....

Lot of folks that sounded like they were more interested in trying to figure out where there was a house with guns, than actually interested in purchasing. One guy actually said "well, sounds a little beat up compared to what I'm looking for (I had just described it as right about 95% finish and a broken micrometer on the windage adjustment on the sight, which still adjusted and stayed put, but did not click), hey, where are you located."

ETA: Of course, I was planning on doing the transfer through an FFL for legal/safety/CYA purposes.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 03:14 PM

10. "To the mostly white gun dealers who sell to the people who resell guns on the street..."

So are all the Federally licensed and controlled FFLs supposed to refuse to sell guns to African American customers now, based on Nutters concerns? Or just the White FFLs?

Or are they supposed to make them sign their 4473 in blood and take an oath that they won't resell the gun to any African Americans?

It's very confusing in Philadelphia.

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Response to DonP (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 03:22 PM

12. That's what I can't wrap my head around.

Assuming the gun dealers have any evidence that their guns are being resold by traffickers, how can they act on those suspicions without exposing themselves to discrimination lawsuits?

If I were a gun dealer, I wouldn't want to open up shop anywhere near a large city. But that's the real goal here; to make it so uncomfortable for legitimate gun dealers to operate in the city, they'll all leave.

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 03:35 PM

14. I am an attorney in PA.

To those that know me, I am known as a "gun guy." One of the more common questions I get asked by people with such knowledge is "I have a PA LTCF (what we call a CC permit), but somebody said that it's invalid in Philadelphia County. Can I carry my gun in Philly?"

YES.

LTCFs are valid in the entire Commonwealth (and all the states with which PA has a reciprocity agreement, but you are bound by their state law on when/where/how it may be carried), including Philly, no matter how much Nutter and his cohort of "stop and friskers" would love for the misinformation otherwise to be true.

ETA: I know this is a little off topic, but figured it was as good a place as any to drop this info for our PA residents. Also, I initially thought of it tying in with the whole "make it uncomfortable, and they will stop without us actually banning it" tactic.

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Response to Callisto32 (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 07:45 PM

23. I think much of the confusion lies in the fact that while the rest of PA...

 

does not reqire the LTCF for open carry, Philly does require it for open carry ("city of the first class", and they are the only one in the state ).

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 03:16 PM

11. Never point a firearm at something you are not willing to destroy...

These actions were utterly reckless, showing depraved indifference to the value of his own life. Had the decedent done this with the firearm pointed at another and I were the prosecutor, I would be seriously considering murder charges.

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Response to Callisto32 (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 03:35 PM

15. Thanks heavens they didn't teach them any gun safety in school.

Imagine how much worse it could have been. At least that seems to be the common response from people that support gun control when anyone even suggests making gun safety an integral part of K-12 education.

Sad, pointless and a totally avoidable tragedy with even the most basic safety education.

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Response to DonP (Reply #15)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 03:48 PM

16. I don't mean to be callous...

but this is totally reckless, Darwin-Award-level stuff. A human being with any instinct for self-preservation should be experienced enough by the age of 18 to know you don't point a mass driver of ANY kind at the central nervous system of yourself or another, unless it is another and that other is attempting to cause you or a third party grievous bodily injury or death. I really, truly wonder how someone can live so long without figuring that much out on his own.

Trying to hang it on the person who sold the mass driver (I'm looking at you, Nutter) is flat out dishonest.

Attempting to use this to "prove" something relating in any way to firearms policy....oy vey.

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Response to Callisto32 (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 04:07 PM

19. Probably small "i" ignorance at work

Didn't realize that even with the mag out one might still be in the chamber and with a DAO design it's like Russian Roulette with all 6 in the cylinder.

At least with a 1911 you might have to cycle the slide and hopefully eject the round when you did.

Apparently it's easier for people like Nutter and Rahm to blame the "mostly white FFLs" than address the core problem of teenagers in gangs.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 03:30 PM

13. If there are gun dealers who are complicit in illegal trafficking...

I'm 100% behind shutting them down and locking them up. But how do we know dealers are willingly participating in this activity? If an honest gun dealer suspects that a straw purchase is taking place, what should he do? What is he required to do? What constitutes reasonable suspicion? If he refuses sale, is he going to be accused of discrimination? This is a nightmare for gun dealers who are trying to run a legitimate business without hurting anyone.

How can we shut down illegal gun trafficking without unduly burdening legitimate gun dealers?

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 04:07 PM

18. I believe that an FFL who suspects a straw purchase is required to report that to BATFE-I-E-I-O.

That is after denying the sale, but making sure you get copies of all alleged forms of ID presented.

BUT, there appears to be a former FFL in the thread, so...Meiko, take it away....

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Response to Callisto32 (Reply #18)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 04:20 PM

20. Unless of course the BATFE tells you to sell it to them anyway. N/T

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Response to DonP (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 04:45 PM

21. Of course, you should always do what your betters in government tell you to do...

ESPECIALLY if it is against your better judgment.

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 09:02 PM

24. Your best practice

 

is to gain all the information you can. Make copies of all the paperwork and notify your local ATF that you had what you believe was an attempted straw purchase. They will then interview you and take any paperwork or copies you might have. The ATF will take the 4473 used so make sure you make a copy for your records.What I was told by my ATF inspector was that I could refuse a sale for any reason. I did not need probable cause or anything else.

If the customer was nervous and I thought something was afoot I could refuse the transaction. If his ID looked wrong for any reason or he had alcohol on his breath. If there were two people that seemed to be involved in the purchase of the gun I could refuse.. I refused a sale one Saturday afternoon because the guy was being a pain in the ass, aggressive and abusive. He reported me to the ATF. The ATF agent called me and asked what happened so I told him, he said no problem. He told the customer to go back to me and apologize and behave himself or he was going to have a hard time getting his gun. The ATF backs the FFL on this point. After all these are guns we are talking about. I was not about to transfer a gun to an angry half drunk person with a serious attitude problem. If I give him the gun and he goes next door to the subway and kills the teller because the kid lipped off to him the cops and possibly the ATF will want to talk to me, I don't want that hanging over my head. During the time I held my FFL I refused several sales and had several background check denials, you get used to it. Some FFL's are not as careful they are only interested in the money end of it.

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Response to Meiko (Reply #24)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 09:33 PM

25. Interesting post. Good information. N/T

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 05:38 PM

22. Basic gun safety should be taught in public schools

 

There is more than one way that the young man's death could have been prevented.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sat Jun 30, 2012, 12:09 AM

26. I don't see it that way

 

and the dead teen would be alive if not for an illegal gun.


I'd say it's more a case of the dead teen would be alive if not for his own unbelievable stupidity

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