Wed Jun 27, 2012, 04:26 PM

DanTex (3,780 posts)

The Truth about Fast & Furious

Last edited Wed Jun 27, 2012, 04:28 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

A great article about F&F just came out in Fortune. Looks like almost everything the gun nuts have been claiming about F&F is a lie. It's curious that the same pro-gunners who want to wait for all the evidence is in to render judgement on Zimmerman have been so quick to crucify the ATF despite not knowing the whole story. As more information comes in, as sane people rather than just loony gun bloggers start to examine the issue, the focus is starting to change from the conspiracy theories to the real facts about gun trafficking and the NRA's extremist pro-gun agenda.

The reality is that thousands of lives, both Mexican and American, have been lost as a direct and predictable consequence of the NRA's continued successful opposition to even the mildest of common sense gun laws -- things like closing the gun show loophole, passing a law specifically against gun trafficking, adequately funding and staffing the ATF.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust.

...

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.

Indeed, a six-month Fortune investigation reveals that the public case alleging that Voth and his colleagues walked guns is replete with distortions, errors, partial truths, and even some outright lies. Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case. Several, including Voth, are speaking out for the first time.

How Fast and Furious reached the headlines is a strange and unsettling saga, one that reveals a lot about politics and media today. It's a story that starts with a grudge, specifically Dodson's anger at Voth. After the terrible murder of agent Terry, Dodson made complaints that were then amplified, first by right-wing bloggers, then by CBS. Rep. Issa and other politicians then seized those elements to score points against the Obama administration, which, for its part, has capitulated in an apparent effort to avoid a rhetorical battle over gun control in the run-up to the presidential election. (A Justice Department spokesperson denies this and asserts that the department is not drawing conclusions until the inspector general's report is submitted.)

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130 replies	Author	Time	Post
The Truth about Fast & Furious (Original post)	DanTex	Jun 2012	OP
rec	handmade34	Jun 2012	#1
So, suddenly Fortune magazine, Corporatist rag, is a reliable news source? Funny how that works.	DonP	Jun 2012	#2
LOL. The gunnies don't like it when actual reporters look into their conspiracy theories!	DanTex	Jun 2012	#4
No, but I expect you to keep quiet the next time somebody quotes the WSJ or Forbes	DonP	Jun 2012	#9
Keep that head buried in that sand!	DanTex	Jun 2012	#14
So being a Rhodes Scholar	Oneka	Jun 2012	#20
What a great pic. Gotta love her.	Starboard Tack	Jun 2012	#36
Actually, I don't gotta love anyone who inflicts serious damage	Simo 1939_1940	Jul 2012	#82
Argument from authority is now acceptable if you agree with the authority?	friendly_iconoclast	Jul 2012	#81
About that "Rhodes Scholar" bit...	friendly_iconoclast	Aug 2012	#84
Hmmm, a "Rhodes Scholar", eh?	PavePusher	Aug 2012	#127
I wonder if he has the same high opinion of all Rhodes Scholars?	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#128
Your understanding of journalism is on a par with your understanding of public safety.	Starboard Tack	Jun 2012	#35
Your understanding of public safety is on par with my cat's understanding of particle physics.	Clames	Jul 2012	#46
So you're saying that...	discntnt_irny_srcsm	Jun 2012	#5
The gun control freaks* would embrace FR if it claimed F&F was bogus.	Canopus	Jun 2012	#13
How about giving us a shout when FR says anything positive about Obama, ATF, SS, Medicaid, etc.	Hoyt	Jun 2012	#15
Classic ad hominem	HankyDub	Jun 2012	#25
Are we feeling...hungry again?	beevul	Jun 2012	#27
hiya!	HankyDub	Jun 2012	#30
Self-imposed intellectual circle-jerking.	Callisto32	Jun 2012	#32
Less anger	HankyDub	Jun 2012	#34
I'm glad you came back with more substance	gejohnston	Jun 2012	#38
call me whatever you like	HankyDub	Jun 2012	#39
I call no one daddy, including my father.	gejohnston	Jun 2012	#40
LOL. A "puff piece". A "couple of ATF agents".	DanTex	Jun 2012	#41
CBS did a better job.	gejohnston	Jun 2012	#42
Who is in denial?	Oneka	Jun 2012	#43
and a way for those responsible to pin it on	gejohnston	Jun 2012	#44
This message was self-deleted by its author	Tuesday Afternoon	Jun 2012	#45
It's not "conditional ethics." It's "When even the wingdings can't buy the rightwing bullshit, the	MADem	Jun 2012	#33
Next up: How the DOJ's war on medical marijuana	truedelphi	Jun 2012	#3
Who was it...	discntnt_irny_srcsm	Jun 2012	#6
Like we all didn't know F&F was the NRA's fault.	ileus	Jun 2012	#7
Gun culture and their allies -- such as NRA -- damn sure did.	Hoyt	Jun 2012	#16
Too long to read	Atypical Liberal	Jun 2012	#8
read it... your question is answered in the article.	SemperEadem	Jun 2012	#11
It's pretty obvious to most. And it's being handled perfectly -- Obama is throwing it in face of	Hoyt	Jun 2012	#17
I'm basking in the glow of transparency.	Atypical Liberal	Jun 2012	#23
I just read that article	SemperEadem	Jun 2012	#10
So...	Callisto32	Jun 2012	#12
To pro-gun/anti-Obama crowd, this has to be like george bush failing to find WMDs	Hoyt	Jun 2012	#18
What?	Remmah2	Jun 2012	#29
Don't have to mention it every time because I have you conditioned to think about the no-good NRA.	Hoyt	Jul 2012	#68
When you mentioned mushroom cloud I thought someone was smoking them.	Remmah2	Jul 2012	#71
No I was referring to george bush lies about Iraq and their "nuclear bombs."	Hoyt	Jul 2012	#73
Don't forget the biological and chemical WMD's	Remmah2	Jul 2012	#74
maybe a few an the fringe right	gejohnston	Jul 2012	#66
So which is it?	Oneka	Jun 2012	#19
Right Wing Holder is Part of the Effort to Take Down Obama!!1@!!!1	TPaine7	Jun 2012	#21
"minor issues with the Fortune story."	Oneka	Jun 2012	#26
The truth is out there.	Atypical Liberal	Jun 2012	#24
I would have only one question for Holder	gejohnston	Jun 2012	#22
The idiots in question	Oneka	Jul 2012	#67
Intentional or accidental the results were still the same.	Remmah2	Jun 2012	#28
From the article:	PavePusher	Jun 2012	#31
The OP seems to have found your questions inconvenient, as they have gone missing.	friendly_iconoclast	Jul 2012	#49
Yeah, typical. n/t	PavePusher	Jul 2012	#50
locking	jpak	Jun 2012	#37
Delusions of being a host...	Clames	Jul 2012	#47
And perhaps if his behavior didn't match	Simo 1939_1940	Jul 2012	#48
It's a fascinating lie to protect shady American gun sellers.	DirkGently	Jul 2012	#51
So who ordered this?	Oneka	Jul 2012	#52
Why do you insist on quoting the article out of context?	DanTex	Jul 2012	#53
pushing a conspiracy theory!	Oneka	Jul 2012	#54
Yes, the quote is from the Fortune article, but you took it out of context.	DanTex	Jul 2012	#55
"Out of context"	TPaine7	Jul 2012	#57
If you look up a few posts, you will see that Oneka highlighted this part of the passage in bold	DanTex	Jul 2012	#58
Oneka can correct me if I'm wrong,	TPaine7	Jul 2012	#60
Let's try this again: we don't know why Holder said that.	DanTex	Jul 2012	#63
I think, rationally speaking, we have a very good idea why Holder said what he said. IT WAS TRUE.	TPaine7	Jul 2012	#69
The skill you need to work on is tolerance of uncertainty.	DanTex	Jul 2012	#70
Translation:	Oneka	Jul 2012	#72
Do I smell a whiff of irony there?	Euromutt	Jul 2012	#79
No correction neccassarry	Oneka	Jul 2012	#65
Here are some questions:	gejohnston	Jul 2012	#61
so this Fortune article is accusing a whisleblowing agent of	gejohnston	Jul 2012	#75
I find it interesting that CBS news has also done a series of reports on Fast and Furious ...	spin	Jul 2012	#56
What I find interesting is that the very mention of guns "causing deaths"...	DanTex	Jul 2012	#59
Guns don't kill people; guns don't cause deaths.	TPaine7	Jul 2012	#62
I don't feel that many gun owners would say that allowing firearms to end up in the hands ...	spin	Jul 2012	#64
Amy Goodman became loony gun blogger?	gejohnston	Jul 2012	#76
That will be ignored, as it doesn't fit the meme being pushed in the OP.	friendly_iconoclast	Jul 2012	#77
But... but... but... Rhodes Scholar... climate change denial... gun bloggers... right wing	TPaine7	Jul 2012	#78
LOOK ME IN THE EYE..	Oneka	Jul 2012	#80
An opposing view from someone in the House oversight comittee ,long read, but informative.	Oneka	Aug 2012	#83
LOL. "someone in the House oversight committee" = Darrell Issa	DanTex	Aug 2012	#85
one has supporting evidence, the other only claims it.	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#86
No evidence it came from Issa? Are you joking?	DanTex	Aug 2012	#87
you are ignoring facts, backed up by evidence presented	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#88
Your interlocutor relies on the argument from authority, and its flipside the genetic fallacy.	friendly_iconoclast	Aug 2012	#89
The irony...	DanTex	Aug 2012	#91
All the better reason for you to detail the factual errors in the linked *.pdf	friendly_iconoclast	Aug 2012	#92
Wow, you are even more clueless than I thought!	DanTex	Aug 2012	#90
Project much?	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#93
This message was self-deleted by its author	friendly_iconoclast	Aug 2012	#94
Well, then- get busy fisking the document linked in post #83. Point out the errors.	friendly_iconoclast	Aug 2012	#95
Sorry, I'm not going through 300 pages of right-wing propaganda...	DanTex	Aug 2012	#96
you don't know the difference between a magazine article and a report?	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#97
Ooh! Terminology!	DanTex	Aug 2012	#98
In other words, substance and logic are not your strong suit	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#99
LOL. You are slowly going off the deep end on this one.	DanTex	Aug 2012	#100
what conspiracy theory?	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#103
Your "points" are completely divorced from reality.	DanTex	Aug 2012	#105
you have no idea how the system works	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#108
This is hilarious, coming from the guy who didn't think that Darrell Issa authored of the...	DanTex	Aug 2012	#111
I was seeing if you could back something you said up	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#113
Well, at the very least I know that the Issa-Grassley report...	DanTex	Aug 2012	#114
Where is Cumming's document saying it is full of shit?	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#116
What are you talking about?	DanTex	Aug 2012	#119
Where is Cumming's document contradicting Issa's?	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#120
You should ask Cummings that question. And ask the US attorneys about the documents and the trials.	DanTex	Aug 2012	#123
I can reason under uncertainty quite well	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#124
Really? You read the whole thing? Well, I have a question.	DanTex	Aug 2012	#125
because I figured you didn't read it	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#126
You don't address the substance of what's said, but complain about the source? Genetic fallacy...	friendly_iconoclast	Aug 2012	#101
LOL. You sure know your logic buzzwords!	DanTex	Aug 2012	#102
where is yours?	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#104
Theme and variation on "Eban good, Issa bad, those that question it are fools. Take my word on it".	friendly_iconoclast	Aug 2012	#106
LOL. You're failing! You won't make the 8th grade team if you can't do better than that!	DanTex	Aug 2012	#107
where is yours?	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#109
Not my job. You claim "Issa's" work is bogus, so demonstrate the bogosity.	friendly_iconoclast	Aug 2012	#110
Actually, you are the one claiming Eban's work is bogus.	DanTex	Aug 2012	#112
Not so; I said the defense of her work by citations of her credentials is...	friendly_iconoclast	Aug 2012	#115
Of course!	DanTex	Aug 2012	#117
don't most investigative reporters	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#118
Investigative reporters speak truth.	DanTex	Aug 2012	#121
I haven't seen any one claiming any such thing	gejohnston	Aug 2012	#122
Without a dump of those "2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents", Eban is cherry-picking.	friendly_iconoclast	Aug 2012	#129
what a crock of shit. UnRec.	Tuesday Afternoon	Aug 2012	#130

Response to DanTex (Original post)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 04:28 PM

handmade34 (9,494 posts)

1. rec

must read

The Truth about Fast & Furious

1. rec

2. So, suddenly Fortune magazine, Corporatist rag, is a reliable news source? Funny how that works.

4. LOL. The gunnies don't like it when actual reporters look into their conspiracy theories!

9. No, but I expect you to keep quiet the next time somebody quotes the WSJ or Forbes

14. Keep that head buried in that sand!

20. So being a Rhodes Scholar

36. What a great pic. Gotta love her.

82. Actually, I **don't** gotta love anyone who inflicts serious damage

81. Argument from authority is now acceptable if you agree with the authority?

84. About that "Rhodes Scholar" bit...

127. Hmmm, a "Rhodes Scholar", eh?

128. I wonder if he has the same high opinion of all Rhodes Scholars?

35. Your understanding of journalism is on a par with your understanding of public safety.

46. Your understanding of public safety is on par with my cat's understanding of particle physics.

5. So you're saying that...

13. The gun control freaks* would embrace FR if it claimed F&F was bogus.

15. How about giving us a shout when FR says anything positive about Obama, ATF, SS, Medicaid, etc.

25. Classic ad hominem

27. Are we feeling...hungry again?

30. hiya!

32. Self-imposed intellectual circle-jerking.

34. Less anger

38. I'm glad you came back with more substance

39. call me whatever you like

40. I call no one daddy, including my father.

41. LOL. A "puff piece". A "couple of ATF agents".

42. CBS did a better job.

43. Who is in denial?

44. and a way for those responsible to pin it on

33. It's not "conditional ethics." It's "When even the wingdings can't buy the rightwing bullshit, the

3. Next up: How the DOJ's war on medical marijuana

6. Who was it...

7. Like we all didn't know F&F was the NRA's fault.

16. Gun culture and their allies -- such as NRA -- damn sure did.

8. Too long to read

11. read it... your question is answered in the article.

17. It's pretty obvious to most. And it's being handled perfectly -- Obama is throwing it in face of

23. I'm basking in the glow of transparency.

10. I just read that article

12. So...

18. To pro-gun/anti-Obama crowd, this has to be like george bush failing to find WMDs

29. What?

68. Don't have to mention it every time because I have you conditioned to think about the no-good NRA.

71. When you mentioned mushroom cloud I thought someone was smoking them.

73. No I was referring to george bush lies about Iraq and their "nuclear bombs."

74. Don't forget the biological and chemical WMD's

66. maybe a few an the fringe right

19. So which is it?

21. Right Wing Holder is Part of the Effort to Take Down Obama!!1@!!!1

26. "minor issues with the Fortune story."

24. The truth is out there.

22. I would have only one question for Holder

67. The idiots in question

28. Intentional or accidental the results were still the same.

31. From the article:

49. The OP seems to have found your questions inconvenient, as they have gone missing.

50. Yeah, typical. n/t

37. locking

47. Delusions of being a host...

48. And perhaps if his behavior didn't match

82. Actually, I don't gotta love anyone who inflicts serious damage