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Tue Jun 19, 2012, 08:36 PM

###Official change-of-SoP of the Gun Control & RKBA Group###

Two recent threads posted in this Group discussed the desirability of expanding the Statement of Purpose of this Group.

The current SoP reads as follows:

Discuss gun control laws, the Second Amendment, the use of firearms for self-defense, and the use of firearms to commit crime and violence.




In this poll by aikoaiko support was strong for a change of the SoP, running at post time 71% for and 29% against, with one abstention. There was a reasonably vigorous discussion in the thread regarding the pros and cons of an SoP change, which I will briefly touch on.

The current SoP limits discussion to firearms and their effect on humans and human relations: crime; self-defense; and the laws, stories, and reports that relate to use of firearms, ammunition, and accessories in affecting crime and self-defense.

The proposed SoP would expand discussion of firearms, ammunition, and accessories beyond humans and human relations. This would include, but not be limited to, hunting, target shooting, action shooting, collecting, customization, and gunsmithing.

Currently, non-human-affected firearms topics are covered in the Outdoor Life Group.


I will give 4 options in this poll. The options are:

  1. Do not change the SoP.
    This is self-explanatory. You feel the current SoP is adequate.

  2. Change the SoP as described The SoP proposed here would change it to "Discuss all aspects of firearms use and ownership, including but not limited to gun control laws and policies, the Second Amendment, self-defense, crime and violence, safety and education, shooting sports, and collecting".

  3. Expand the SoP in a different way If you would like the SoP expanded but do not agree with the proposed language of Option #2, then this opens discussion for a different wording of the SoP with an eye towards expanding differently.

  4. Constrict the SoP If you feel the SoP is too broad and would like a more focused SoP for the Group, then this opens discussion for narrowing the discussion topics.


    The poll will be open for a week. If no single option gets 50% plus 1, then the top two options will get a runoff poll next week.





    32 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Time expired
    Do not change the SoP
    6 (19%)
    Change the SoP as described
    24 (75%)
    Expand the SoP in a different way
    1 (3%)
    Constrict the SoP
    1 (3%)
    Show usernames
    Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

80 replies, 9463 views

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Reply ###Official change-of-SoP of the Gun Control & RKBA Group### (Original post)
krispos42 Jun 2012 OP
OffWithTheirHeads Jun 2012 #1
petronius Jun 2012 #2
krispos42 Jun 2012 #3
ileus Jun 2012 #4
safeinOhio Jun 2012 #5
NewMoonTherian Jun 2012 #7
Kaleva Jun 2012 #8
safeinOhio Jun 2012 #9
Kaleva Jun 2012 #10
petronius Jun 2012 #22
krispos42 Jun 2012 #11
Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #6
Hoyt Jun 2012 #18
Meiko Jun 2012 #12
safeinOhio Jun 2012 #13
aikoaiko Jun 2012 #29
Kaleva Jun 2012 #14
bluerum Jun 2012 #15
gejohnston Jun 2012 #16
ileus Jun 2012 #17
Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2012 #21
OneTenthofOnePercent Jun 2012 #19
Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2012 #20
Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #23
rrneck Jun 2012 #24
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #31
Kaleva Jun 2012 #25
ellisonz Jun 2012 #26
Kaleva Jun 2012 #27
ellisonz Jun 2012 #28
OriginalGeek Jun 2012 #30
Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2012 #32
aikoaiko Jun 2012 #34
oneshooter Jun 2012 #36
ellisonz Jun 2012 #41
Kaleva Jun 2012 #42
ellisonz Jun 2012 #72
Kaleva Jun 2012 #73
aikoaiko Jun 2012 #45
rrneck Jun 2012 #33
krispos42 Jun 2012 #44
petronius Jun 2012 #53
krispos42 Jun 2012 #61
ellisonz Jun 2012 #54
krispos42 Jun 2012 #62
Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #35
gejohnston Jun 2012 #37
Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #39
Kaleva Jun 2012 #40
gejohnston Jun 2012 #38
krispos42 Jun 2012 #46
aikoaiko Jun 2012 #49
Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #58
gejohnston Jun 2012 #59
aikoaiko Jun 2012 #60
Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #63
aikoaiko Jun 2012 #64
Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #65
aikoaiko Jun 2012 #50
DanTex Jun 2012 #51
petronius Jun 2012 #52
SkatmanRoth Jun 2012 #43
aikoaiko Jun 2012 #47
SkatmanRoth Jun 2012 #66
aikoaiko Jun 2012 #68
SkatmanRoth Jun 2012 #69
Kaleva Jun 2012 #48
SkatmanRoth Jun 2012 #67
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2012 #55
Kaleva Jun 2012 #56
petronius Jun 2012 #57
aikoaiko Jun 2012 #70
ManiacJoe Jun 2012 #71
Kaleva Jun 2012 #74
Kaleva Jun 2012 #75
Common Sense Party Jun 2012 #76
petronius Jun 2012 #77
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #78
Kaleva Jun 2012 #79
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #80

Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 08:41 PM

1. Allow me to be the first.

I've never understood why you can't talk about guns in a group called guns.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 08:46 PM

2. One thought, though: if #2 and #3 together get more votes than #1 or #4, should

that trigger a runoff on expansion options?

Thanks for posting this!

On edit: Oops, never mind, I think your way works. I should have read more carefully...

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Response to petronius (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 08:49 PM

3. Hmmm.... good point.

Yeah, that would probably be a good idea. We'd have to discuss the changes in detail, though, so they can be condensed into a poll!

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 09:02 PM

4. Change is progressive.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 09:34 PM

5. If you wish to

include, but not be limited to, hunting, target shooting, action shooting, collecting, customization, and gunsmithing, then remove from latest threads. Just like most topics such as support groups, home and family, sports and entertainment, those not interested should not have scroll thru them. It would also attract hundreds, if not thousands of gun enthusiast that have no connection progressives and the whole site could become a how to and comment site for those people. If these changes are made, which is OK with me, remove from Latest Threads to save DU.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 09:56 PM

7. I agree. n/t

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 10:13 PM

8. I wouldn't have any issue with that.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 10:21 PM

9. I suggest a poll

in GD to remove RKBA, along with adding discussions about firearms not related to 2nd Amendment issues, out of Latest Threads. Putting the poll in GD would insure that all DUers get to decide what they have to read in Latest Treads.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #9)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 10:24 PM

10. You might need to contact skinner about that idea.

Without the okay from Admin, a poll in GD about that wouldn't mean much.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 06:02 PM

22. It looks like that functionality just became available

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10131560

We can now completely disappear groups from our DU experience, or just exclude them from Latest/Greatest. Seems like GC & RKBA is about to disappear from a lot of radar screens...

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 10:35 PM

11. That's something that the Admins can do. I cannot.

Although I think a bit of selective editing on the "Latest Threads" page would be nice. There are several topics that are generally banned in GD; it seems to me that the Admins could make those optional for display. Many people don't give a crap about conspiracy theories, guns, god, entertainment, sports, or whining about DU and would probably like the option to turn off some or all of those Groups from the Latest Page.



If we vote to change the SoP then it's something I can mention.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 09:45 PM

6. I enjoy general gun chat, but I'd rather have it somewhere else.

I agree with the wording of option 2, except for "shooting sports, and collecting." It'd be easy to create another group in the recreation or sports categories, and not wind up with the rest of us having to sit through unground crysanthemum emblems on a Type 99 rifle when we want to read about what's happening in the courts or legislatures.

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Response to Glaug-Eldare (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:36 PM

18. I agree wholeheartedly.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 10:39 PM

12. There are a few who are lobbying

 

in META to have the entire group removed. The Boss may decide that's the way he wants to go so this may all be for naught. I hope not, just sayin'

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Response to Meiko (Reply #12)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 10:48 PM

13. The best way to save this group

is to remove it from Latest Threads. It only serves to antagonize people on both sides. Bury it along side Coping with Divorce or Separation where those that are interested can find it. In the mean time it is tying up space for issues that Democrats and Progressives can work together on to move this country forward.

The arguments in RKBA have become endless and divisive.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 02:08 PM

29. This group needs no saving. Its doing fine.


The crowd that would like to see fewer guns or types of guns in the hands of law abiding folks needs saving.

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Response to Meiko (Reply #12)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:04 PM

14. That's been going on since I've been a member of DU and perhaps even much longer.

It would please some here to no end if this group were to be shut down but given the fact that Gun Control & RBKA has been in existence for so long now, I doubt that's going to happen.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:19 PM

15. There are plenty of gun forums that cover many aspects of firearms.

What would make this one relevant to DU is promoting 2A in a manner consistent with Democratic ideals. Most gun forums are hostile to that. They typically discourage the open promotion of any political position but in fact often seem to be very teabaggish and RW in nature. There are a couple liberal gun forums out there but they are pretty lame compared to some of the larger gun forums.

Anyway, the sig, berreta and walther forums are examples of very deep knowledge and information around many of the aspects of firearms mentioned in the proposed SoP.

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Response to bluerum (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:31 PM

16. this one is fairly good.

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Response to bluerum (Reply #15)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 07:09 AM

17. I was expecting better from the sig forum.



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Response to bluerum (Reply #15)


Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 04:45 PM

19. I think the SOP should be changed & the RKBA forum should be treated like any other Rights forum...

 

That is, anyone who posts anti-rights sentiment ought to be kicked out on their keister. Go into ANY of the other rights forums and spout off some drivel about restricting those rights... see how long you last. The right to arms for the purpose of self defense is no different. The SOP here should be changed to disallow BIGOTED anti-rights posters. They can go form their own BIGOTED anti-rights group/forum somewhere else.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #19)


Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 06:35 PM

23. This is exactly what I hoped for all along.

 

I think it's silly to have one forum for talking about gun policy and another for talking about guns in general.

Let's talk about all aspects of guns.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 11:57 PM

24. Kick

Would it be a good idea to pin this?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #24)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 04:29 PM

31. Second that idea.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 12:14 PM

25. This looks like it could be a nail biter!

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 12:51 PM

26. Have you consulted the Admins about any of this?

Or is it full-speed ahead on turning this just into any other gun board. If this occurs I will propose a separate group for gun control supporters and request that the hyperlinks from the GD, V&M and Good Reads forums go to not this group but to the new group for gun control supporters.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 01:16 PM

27. The poll is to see if a majority of regulars support a change to the SOP

There isn't a "full speed ahead" on this as it's been discussed in considerable length not just here but in Meta too over the past few weeks.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #27)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 01:19 PM

28. This looks a heck of a lot like "full speed ahead"

To the point where many are now just likely to ignore the past norms of this website...

And so I'm just going to lay out what action gun control supporters (including myself) are likely to take in response to such a move.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #28)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 04:13 PM

30. Do whatcha gotta do bro.

What it looks a heckuvva lot like is irrelevant. The admins will ultimately decide and nobody here thinks differently - except maybe you.

Personally i have no problem with removing the group from the latest threads page and I certainly have no problem with you forming a gun-grabber group to play in. But I wouldn't try to stop you from talking about gun-grabbing here either.

I hope the change does go through though. I'd like to talk about guns in the guns group.

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Response to OriginalGeek (Reply #30)


Response to ellisonz (Reply #28)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 08:43 PM

34. What exactly bothers you so much about ...

...threads dedicated to discussing firearms themselves ?

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #34)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 08:48 PM

36. It's because he don't know anything about them.

Except"Guns is BAD!!"

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #34)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 01:58 AM

41. That's not what DU has ever been about in the past. n/t

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #41)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 02:45 AM

42. Many Democrats own guns.

President Obama:

"The Second Amendment in this country is part of our Constitution and the president of the United States is bound by our Constitution," he said. "So I believe in the Second Amendment. It does provide for Americans the right to bear arms for their protection, for their safety, for hunting, for a wide range of uses. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20038924-503544.html

In your opinion, it's fine if we talk about gun policy here but not to talk about guns themselves even though ownership of such is right guaranteed by the Constitution.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 25, 2012, 01:48 AM

72. There are thousands of sites where you obsess over guns.

Right now, this isn't one of them and if the non-answer answer above is any indication of where this conversation is going I feel safe saying I doubt it ever will be.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #72)

Mon Jun 25, 2012, 08:50 AM

73. This is Democratic Underground

Many Dems own guns.

Even with the added exposure to the poll with the threads in Meta, the percentages for and against in expanding the SOP haven't changed much. Which leads me to believe that a clear majority of DUers are either in favor of the expanded SOP, or don't care one way or another and believe that the regulars of the Gun Control & RKBA ought to be able to decide how to run this group.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #41)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 09:47 AM

45. Ok

And I recognize that you are a stakeholder in the group.

In this new era of self determination of groups there is opportunity for change. If change happens I hope you give it a chance. Likewise I will live with no changes if that is the result.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 08:34 PM

33. Still tryin' t'be a playah...

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #26)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 09:31 AM

44. No.

I was approached with this idea, and members ran their own threads discussing the topic, which culminated in this thread.

Since this is a Group and not a Forum, the Group regulars have considerable input into what they want their group to be about and not be about. Some of this is stuff such as who is/are Host/Hosts, some is items such as how duplicates are treated, and some is the wording of the SoP and thus the mission of the Group.

Let me put it this way: I don't feel I have the authority to prevent either discussion of the topic, or of petitioning the Admins for a SoP change.

My opinion on the matter remains my opinion on the matter.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #44)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 12:20 PM

53. Welcome back! Hope your drive was safe and pleasant...

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Response to petronius (Reply #53)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 04:09 PM

61. Gas gauge got stuck

I thought I was getting suspiciously good gas mileage. AAA to the rescue!

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #44)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 01:12 PM

54. "or of petitioning the Admins for a SoP change."

So who will petition admins? Or is this whole little exercise just a circle jerk?

"My opinion on the matter remains my opinion on the matter."

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #54)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 04:11 PM

62. I'm planning on formally posting in meta...

And pm-ing the Admins with my opinion on the matter.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 08:47 PM

35. Why not start a new group for "Gun Enthusiast"?

If you change the SOP to include all things gun, this group will no longer attract any discussion of 2A or Gun Control. We already have so few members who don't like to breathe the air in here, let alone participate. Many of those members are gun owners and enthusiasts who would probably enjoy talking about guns.
We are already way over weighted by the pro-carry crowd. They dominate this group, as illustrated by the poll. They do not represent Dems, let alone Liberal Progressive Dems, yet they dominate this group. Now you suggest we turn the most lively group on DU into a circle jerk for gun lovers.
If that's what you want, go ahead. I'm sure I won't be missed.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #35)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 09:48 PM

37. or add some traffic to outdoor life or sports.

They do not represent Dems

I don't know about concealed carry specific, but Dems are more diverse than you give us credit for.
, let alone Liberal Progressive Dems

Liberal and progressive are two different concepts. One can be liberal without being progressive. That does not mean one embraces all of the things classical liberals think. Progressive means move forward or change. Not all progressive ideas are good ideas, or they may be good ideas but may have negative side effects. Most things go full circle and be progressive and reactionary at the same time. Liberalized CCW is "liberal" in the classical sense. It is also simultaneously progressive and reactionary at the same time. It is progressive if you look at only the last 100 years. Prior to that, it is kind of a mixed bag.
Can one be a progressive without being liberal? Historically this has happened. Creationist and socialist William Jennings Bryant comes to mind.

Now you suggest we turn the most lively group on DU into a circle jerk for gun lovers.

It could, although I think technical information is good thing to know if you are going propose good regulation. That said, I would hate to see the place become a circle jerk for either side. The fact that it is not a circle jerk is what adds to its liveliness. I learn from the other groups I read, but I rarely have much to say there. Somethings can overlap. Why is this different than other civil liberties and not part of Civil Liberties, I already know the answer.
hunting is outdoor life
target shooting is sports
reloading is ummm Frugal and Energy Efficient Living
or some of them could overlap to rural/farm life
engraving could be in Art and Humanities like Crafts and Artists.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #37)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 10:19 PM

39. Lots of good points, as usual

I agree about the liberal and progressive labels. Then we have that other dreaded label "socialist" label, which I definitely have some affinity towards in certain areas, like public health and safety. That's where it gets a little tricky, especially when one identifies, as I do, as a liberal-progressive-socialist with some conservative tendencies mixed in with a dash of libertarianism.
I loathe any kinds of government restrictions on individual liberty except when demonstrated to be to the general good of the public, and then only when the greater good far outweighs individual rights.
Regarding the "Gungeon", though, I think it should remain focused on policy and public safety and how they relate to rights, be they individual, collective, constitutional or basic human rights. It's a SOP that fits in a politically oriented message board. There are many sites where gun enthusiasts can talk technically, or they can go to "Outdoor Life" or "EBay, Collectore, Flea Markets and Antiques". Gun safety is already discussed here and that is fine. The odd picture is fine, but we both know that opening it up to the usual "gun porn" found on the wingnut sites will just turn the place into a spamfest of gun nuttery and NRA propaganda.
I think we have made progress in recent months and the atmosphere is far more cordial than it was on DU2. We actually manage to have some constructive conversations between reasonable people. I don't mind being yelled at occasionally, or yelling at others from time to time, but I've never felt unwelcome here.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #39)

Fri Jun 22, 2012, 10:33 PM

40. I wouldn't have an issue with prohibiting the posting of pictures of guns

As long as one could post a link to a site where the pic may be such as photobucket.

Frankly, I don't think there's going to be much of a change here if the expanded SOP is adopted. If there was a huge interest in "gun porn" and discussions about individual guns, the Outdoor Life group would already be flooded with such threads.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #35)


Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 09:53 AM

46. See reply #44.

I'm not suggesting anything, by the way.

Although since the political winds change more frequently than gun technology (ooo, look, ANOTHER new 1911...) the Group would probably still be dominated by politics than technical issues.



The Admins will look at this thread, as well as the others linked in the OP, and make a determination. Your suggestion is certainly viable.

I believe the difficulty is that guns are a tool, a specific kind of tool, and are used in many situations that are broader in context than the kind of tool being used. For example, with hunting, you can do it with a gun, or with archery. Yet the core of hunting is the same regardless of the tool used.

Deer stands, clothing, calls, bait, areas to hunt, tips and tricks and techniques, camping gear, game regulations, latest equipment, and such are generally independent of whether you're hunting with the latest uber-magnum from Expensive Firearms, Inc., or a kitchen knife duct-taped to a broomstick. And the basic gear you carry hunting also works well for fishing, hiking, and camping.

Similarly, self-defense has many fundamentals that are independent of the weapon carried: situational awareness, exercise and training, clothing, tactics and strategy of the violent criminal, force-training, and the survivor mindset are all independent of whether you carry a pistol, a knife, or a roll of quarters.



The Admins may well decide to leave things as they stand in light of these questions. Or maybe they'll make a new Topic called "Guns" and put in a Group for "Gun Control & RKBA" and a Group for "Recreational Firearms". Maybe a "Firearm Collector's" Group, too.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 10:59 AM

49. Your desperation is showing Starboard Tack.


The pro-RKBA pro-carry crowd does represent Democrats much more than you care to admit.

Technical discussions inform policy discussions.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #49)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 02:36 PM

58. Pro-RKBA is not pro-carry. Nice try.

Most Dems support RKBA, but are not pro-carry. Most of us do not interpret 2A as a license to carry a loaded handgun everywhere. I support 2A, as it was written and intended, not how a RW SCOTUS interprets it. That's one of the basic differences between being a progressive liberal and a right-wing libertarian. One puts society and the greater good first and the second puts the individual first, regardless of any societal damage. The first is progressive and the second is regressive and reactionary.
I understand the struggle of Dems who have bought into this belief that we are somehow better off with an armed populace. It can't be easy. I know lots of Dems who own guns, love to hunt, keep one handy for home defense. I don't know one who would carry a gun to church or the mall.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #58)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 02:57 PM

59. Umm no,

That's one of the basic differences between being a progressive liberal and a right-wing libertarian. One puts society and the greater good first and the second puts the individual first, regardless of any societal damage.
RW libertarians basically want to go back to feudal Europe, or the East India Company. Classical liberalism, which is what the enlightenment and the country was founded on, puts the individual above the Crown and Corporation.
The problem with your definition of "greater good" anything can be justified as "greater good". RW libertarians think what they are doing is for the "greater good". Or at least, so they claim. Europe and Australia and Canada certainly did not do it for a "saner safer society", it was to protect the monarchs and oligarchs from the Red menace.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #58)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 03:48 PM

60. More desperation: license to carry a loaded handun EVERYWHERE!!!111!!


This is why your side is losing so badly these days. Few people buy into your hyperbolic distortions anymore.

I'm a right of center Democrat who has a license to carry a firearm and sometimes I do.

You are wrong about what a progressive liberal is. They do not place society over the individual, they balance the interests of society as a whole with the interests of individuals. At the root of any liberal position is individual liberty.

Those who place society over the individual are something else.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #60)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 05:44 PM

63. "I'm a right of center Democrat" says it all. It's a big tent. We need you.

I don't have a side, BTW. I don't support any legislation I've seen so far. I am not a banner. I think people should be responsible for their actions. I consider carry a concealed firearm to be extremely foolish, extremely dangerous and I encourage those who do it, to rethink. Guns have no place on the streets of our cities.
I am a left of center Democrat, who places public safety in front of personal preferences any day. I prefer that people see the common sense of not being armed in public, rather than passing draconian laws that fuck things up for everyone. Those who carry on a routine basis are the ones who will ultimately be responsible for those laws being passed.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #63)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 05:58 PM

64. That's funny because I meant to write left of center.


But I'll let it stand.

If you're not a banner then are you for lifting all the current bans?

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #64)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 06:50 PM

65. Sure, the bans on ownership are pointless anyway. Pure tokenism.

You can't partially ban something. That creates division and discontent. Like medical marijuana, it allows only sick people to circumvent the ban.
Now, when it comes to use in public, then local laws should apply. Same as smoking, drinking. I'm all for gun free zones, where NO guns are allowed, including cops with guns.
But if something is available to one person, it should be available to all.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 11:08 AM

50. "Gun Enthusiasm" is discussion of RKBA and Gun Control.


I don't want you to go away, but pouting and storming off is your option if a change in SOP occurs.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 11:09 AM

51. I agree. Also, I stole your idea in a new OP. Sorry!

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 12:10 PM

52. My opinion is that a single, inclusive Group to talk about all aspects of

firearms in law and society makes the most sense. It's a small topic in the grand scheme of DU, and various DUers have a range of partly-overlapping interests on the subject. Keeping everything together at the most natural point of intersection (i.e., firearms), will give the best chance that threads will be seen by those who want to see them. And it will still be a slow-moving Groups, so we'll all be able to filter out (Trash) the threads that don't interest us.

I doubt expanding the SoP as described really would change the flavor of the Group much, if at all. I certainly don't see much chance of a porn-fueled circle jerk (or whatever other carefully prejudicial language you want to use)...

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 06:57 AM

43. Allowing technical topics will dilute the forum from the discussion of legal rights


    This forum should be dedicated to the legal and constitutional aspects of the right to keep and bear arms. Inclusion of content about the physics, cost, performance, and history of specific arms and accessories will detract from the core purpose of the forum. Information threads about guns and debates about hardware efficiencies will give the appearance the forum favors gun enthusiasts by the shear volume of posts about weaponry and gadgets.

    I am not interested in filtering through threads about holsters and ballistics to get to the ones about the philosophical and constitutional aspects of citizenís rights.

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Response to SkatmanRoth (Reply #43)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 09:59 AM

47. Quite the opposite- many laws are based on technical aspects of guns

We all remember how Rep McCarthy humiliated herself by not knowing what a barrel shroud was when she wanted to ban them on some firearms.

Both sides on this issue benefit from understanding the objects we discuss.

And I remind you this is a group and not a forum.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #47)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 08:50 PM

66. The example of Rep McCarthy is about laws concerning guns

If the law is about some technical aspect of guns, then its merits, or lack there of, need to be discussed to clarify the law.

What I want to avoid is purely technical discussions like the pros / cons of aluminum case CCI Blazers versus brass case Remington ammunition, for example.

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Response to SkatmanRoth (Reply #66)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 09:18 PM

68. True, but understanding firearms better in the first place may lead to fewer silly laws...


...or people supporting silly laws if people on both sides have an accurate base knowledge.

Its true that aluminum versus brass cases may not be relevant to law, but not so long ago Rachel Maddow was talking about the Glock threat of all plastic guns out of pure ignorance.

Good information informs both sides of the gun control and RKBA debate.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #68)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 09:42 PM

69. I cringe at the thought of 'Lounge' like activities when I want to know about ownership rights

It does not take much imagination to foresee "Post your derringer pics" thread where there is a flood of people showing off their favorite snake guns.

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Response to SkatmanRoth (Reply #43)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 10:02 AM

48. One could argue that the AWB was a disaster because of the lack of knowledge about guns

There were many stories about police not being sure if a gun was legal or not when the AWB was in effect.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #48)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 08:59 PM

67. Yes, the AWB was a law that confused cosmetic features with functionality

Discussion about the way the law was worded with respect to actual features and operation of guns was, and still is, needed because the law directly affects gun ownership.

I do not want to see this group degrade to discussions about the way after market cleaning products remove copper from a barrel.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 01:39 PM

55. The proposed extension has nothing to do with "Justice & Public Safety"

which is the topic this group is listed under. I think this shows that the expansion is really taking in a completely separate topic - that is, gun-related hobbies, rather than public policy.

The suggestion for a new 'Gun Enthusiasts' group sounds much more logical to me. It would go under 'Recreation'. This is like the separation of, for instance, the groups under 'Media' and 'Entertainment'.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #55)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 01:53 PM

56. I don't think you could put discusions about guns for self defense under "Recreation"

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #55)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 01:55 PM

57. On the other hand, an inclusive group in J & PS reiterates that the main focus

of the group will remain policy, which is appropriate for a political discussion board. (I actually don't think the change will have much effect - look at the small number of relevant threads in Outdoor Life or that have been hidden here - but I support the idea of a more open group to allow the possibility of more diverse conversations.)

My take on it is that there are a lot of different firearms-related topics that individual DUers are interested in, and we all have partly-overlapping interests among these topics. Keeping all the topics that intersect at 'firearms' together in one group makes it most likely that threads will be seen and conversations will occur. Given the ways we can all tailor our individual DU experiences (ignore, trash thread, trash group, just don't read), I think an inclusive group is more logical than compartmentalizing. We all do that sort of filtering anyway, I imagine, in every group/forum we browse...

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sun Jun 24, 2012, 11:26 AM

70. kick

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Sun Jun 24, 2012, 08:45 PM

71. The two-group option seems to be the better option.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #71)

Mon Jun 25, 2012, 08:53 AM

74. I find the two group option interesting

I'm in favor of one group with an expanded SOP but failing that, would certainly then support the two group option.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Tue Jun 26, 2012, 08:22 AM

75. kick-about 12 hours to go.

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Tue Jun 26, 2012, 06:01 PM

76. I might have been willing to support the two-group option, if only its supporters hadn't stooped to

using terms like "circle jerk of gun nuttery" and "gun porn."

Read up on your Dale Carnegie, fellas.

The SOP will change as proposed.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #76)

Tue Jun 26, 2012, 06:06 PM

77. I would suggest though, that those with 'Two-groups' as their first choice should

vote (or switch to) Option #3, or Pass, to give a more representative result...

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Response to krispos42 (Original post)

Tue Jun 26, 2012, 06:38 PM

78. Expand the SoP in a different way

I'd like to see a top level topic added named "Firearms" and two groups within that topic named "Firearms Policy" and "Firearms Enthusiasts".

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #78)

Tue Jun 26, 2012, 07:17 PM

79. You were about the only one supporting such an idea during the 1st poll

Had you gotten more support and commentary then from those who oppose expanding the current SOP, it might have gotten some legs.

Edit: Others, such as DanTex did voice support for it but that didn't happen until this, the official poll, already had begun.

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