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Wed Jun 13, 2012, 10:55 AM

Method to Track Firearm Use Is Stalled by Foes

Identifying the firearm used in a crime is one of the biggest challenges for criminal investigators. But what if a shell casing picked up at a murder scene could immediately be tracked to the gun that fired it?

A technique that uses laser technology and stamps a numeric code on shell casings can do just that. But the technology, called microstamping, has been swept up in the larger national debate over gun laws and Second Amendment rights, and efforts to require gun makers to use it have stalled across the nation.

“I think it is one of these things in law enforcement that would just take us from the Stone Age to the jet age in an instant,” said Commissioner Frederick Bealefeld III of the Baltimore Police Department. “I just can’t comprehend the opposition to it.”

But legislation proposed in several states to require manufacturers of semiautomatic weapons to use the technology has met with fierce opposition. Opponents, including the gun industry and the National Rifle Association, argue that microstamping is ineffective and its cost prohibitive. They say the proposed system would unfairly focus on legal gun owners when most crimes are committed with illegally obtained guns.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/us/code-on-shell-casings-sparks-a-gun-debate.html?_r=1&hp

103 replies, 9754 views

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Reply Method to Track Firearm Use Is Stalled by Foes (Original post)
SecularMotion Jun 2012 OP
ileus Jun 2012 #1
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #29
hack89 Jun 2012 #2
gejohnston Jun 2012 #3
krispos42 Jun 2012 #14
PavePusher Jun 2012 #57
krispos42 Jun 2012 #76
Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #4
ileus Jun 2012 #5
Ian David Jun 2012 #9
Remmah2 Jun 2012 #16
DonP Jun 2012 #17
NewMoonTherian Jun 2012 #101
rrneck Jun 2012 #6
SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #8
rrneck Jun 2012 #19
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #20
rrneck Jun 2012 #24
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #27
SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #7
Ian David Jun 2012 #13
virginia mountainman Jun 2012 #10
SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #11
Remmah2 Jun 2012 #15
NewMoonTherian Jun 2012 #102
krispos42 Jun 2012 #12
DonP Jun 2012 #21
G26 Jun 2012 #18
friendly_iconoclast Jun 2012 #22
OneTenthofOnePercent Jun 2012 #23
Callisto32 Jun 2012 #25
SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #26
DanTex Jun 2012 #28
SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #30
DanTex Jun 2012 #32
SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #33
DonP Jun 2012 #45
PavePusher Jun 2012 #60
DonP Jun 2012 #66
PavePusher Jun 2012 #80
DonP Jun 2012 #88
NewMoonTherian Jun 2012 #103
sarisataka Jun 2012 #31
SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #34
DanTex Jun 2012 #35
sarisataka Jun 2012 #37
DanTex Jun 2012 #40
sarisataka Jun 2012 #42
sarisataka Jun 2012 #72
SecularMotion Jun 2012 #36
SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #38
Hoyt Jun 2012 #46
Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2012 #56
DanTex Jun 2012 #39
krispos42 Jun 2012 #41
SecularMotion Jun 2012 #43
gejohnston Jun 2012 #50
Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #51
SecularMotion Jun 2012 #52
gejohnston Jun 2012 #53
SecularMotion Jun 2012 #54
Clames Jun 2012 #58
Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #61
krispos42 Jun 2012 #75
PavePusher Jun 2012 #59
Hoyt Jun 2012 #44
Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #47
Hoyt Jun 2012 #48
Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #49
Hoyt Jun 2012 #64
gejohnston Jun 2012 #65
Hoyt Jun 2012 #71
gejohnston Jun 2012 #73
Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #67
Hoyt Jun 2012 #69
Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #74
Hoyt Jun 2012 #77
Clames Jun 2012 #68
Hoyt Jun 2012 #70
Straw Man Jun 2012 #90
Hoyt Jun 2012 #91
Clames Jun 2012 #93
Hoyt Jun 2012 #94
friendly_iconoclast Jun 2012 #95
Clames Jun 2012 #96
Hoyt Jun 2012 #97
DonP Jun 2012 #98
Straw Man Jun 2012 #99
SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #62
Hoyt Jun 2012 #78
PavePusher Jun 2012 #81
Hoyt Jun 2012 #82
PavePusher Jun 2012 #84
Hoyt Jun 2012 #86
Straw Man Jun 2012 #100
Cherchez la Femme Jun 2012 #63
GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #55
petronius Jun 2012 #79
Straw Man Jun 2012 #83
Callisto32 Jun 2012 #87
GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #85
Tejas Jun 2012 #89
-..__... Jun 2012 #92

Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 10:59 AM

1. so would the laser be on the slide and write the information

as it cycled the round out of the chamber after firing?

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Response to ileus (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 02:46 PM

29. The cheap guns...

...have a laser. The expensive high class guns for the 1%ers come with a Frenchman, canvas and some charcoals and pastels. I hear he's fast.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:18 AM

2. A simple file will defeat this. nt

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:53 AM

14. If anything, law enforcement should be the incubator of this technology.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #14)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 06:50 PM

57. Well, sure...

 

if they have nothing to be afraid of...

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #57)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 09:38 PM

76. Hell, since they have explicit government backing to carry guns and kill people with them...

...they should be FIRST and FOREMOST with this technology. Just like dashboard cams.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:24 AM

4. And who's going to make millions off it?

Microstamping is a waste of time and resources.

1-2. Oh derp I misunderstood the concept. This is just silly.

3. There's already a very simple way to obliterate the utility of shell casings as evidence -- use a revolver.

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Response to Glaug-Eldare (Reply #4)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:31 AM

5. probably some congressmans BIL has a business

with the patent on the technology...

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Response to Glaug-Eldare (Reply #4)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:45 AM

9. You can also put your gun inside a stocking when you fire it, to catch the casings. n/t

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Response to Ian David (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 12:11 PM

16. Pistol condom?

 

Last edited Wed Jun 13, 2012, 02:12 PM - Edit history (1)



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Response to Ian David (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 12:20 PM

17. Or use the "Revolver Loophole" - no casings at the crime site.

I'm sure they'll come up with something to make wheel guns ridiculously expensive that won't work either.

Then we'll all get more lectures, from people that are proud of their technical ignorance, about more "loopholes" that need to be closed.

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Response to DonP (Reply #17)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 05:21 PM

101. I just got this chilling feeling, like reading a newspaper from the future.

I can see the term "revolver loophole" being all over the media after this law passes. We as a nation are smart enough not to go down this road, right?

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:33 AM

6. The best case made ny OP's like this

is for the expansion of the SOP to include discussion of firearms for the purpose of education.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:44 AM

8. What???????

 

Know your facts first before you post something?

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Response to SGMRTDARMY (Reply #8)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 12:32 PM

19. Maybe we could balance it

with some sort of creative speculation clause so we could discuss the evil crime causing waves that guns transmit?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #19)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 12:56 PM

20. Maybe we could just...

...ban stupid posts and keep handy some bullshit repellant.

I like the idea of adding a clickbox like the recommend button that reads "dumb and not worth reading". When the "dumbs" pass 5 and equal or exceed 2 times the recs, the post gets auto-hidden.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #20)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 01:10 PM

24. That might

kill the group...

Shit, we need some entertain value. Kick me, beat me, slander my name, just don't bore me.



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Response to rrneck (Reply #24)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 02:09 PM

27. I think I remember...

the name of that school. Something Ridge...

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:40 AM

7. Not this shit again

 

the stamp starts to wear down with the first hammer strike. pretty soon, the stamp is unreadable.
And its very easy for criminals to file down the pin.

You really want to fuck with LE? Go to a shooting range and grab a bunch of spent casings, and spread them at a crime scene.
Do you see a problem with this?
Why do you post this debunked bullshit? Don't you do your homework first?

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Response to SGMRTDARMY (Reply #7)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:52 AM

13. There's at least one way spreading firing range shells around could backfire.

The wide variety of shells dropped leads law enforcement to the hypothesis that it is a random collection from a firing range.

Then suppose one person at the firing range is using a rare kind of ammunition, and you drop some of that person's shells around.

That leads back to particular firing range you collected the bullets from.

And then that leads to one more piece of evidence pointing to you, if it happens to be a range you've visited, or a gun club at which you are a member.

You'd have to convince a third-party to collect shells from a firing range that you have nothing to do with, and hope they don't blab.


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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:45 AM

10. ZOMIGOD!!!!!! Their is a LOOPHOLE in our carefully considered legislation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

we now must ban THIS...

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Response to virginia mountainman (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:48 AM

11. OMFG

 

That is just too funny.

I guess we need to register files and microstamp them now.

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Response to virginia mountainman (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 12:07 PM

15. Did you get that from your humor file?

 

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 05:27 PM

102. The file humor file.

Uh oh. I just created file humor file humor, which will now require its own file.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:51 AM

12. Revolvers.

They don't leave shell casings at a scene, unless you need to reload.

But aside from that... it only tracks the gun to the registered owner of the gun. So not only do we have to register all guns (give the government a list of all of our firearms, continuously updated), the trail will go cold the instant the gun is lost or stolen because criminals don't register their guns.


Plus... microstamping wears away or can be removed with a file or sandpaper.

It's a no-go.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #12)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 01:05 PM

21. Revolvers - Hmmph! Just another "loophole" to skirt the intent of the law ...

... just like those California compliant AR rifles.

Obviously revolvers are just another gun lover trick to get around the law.

<sarcasm> off

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 12:21 PM

18. Fortunately, the US CDC reports that ...

homicides by firearm continue their downward trend (preliminary 2010 data here showing values for 2009 as well), so the justification for microstamping continues to dwindle.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 01:07 PM

22. The best response from the comments-I couldn't have said it any better:

...A gun is a collection of parts and parts wear out. It takes about five minutes to replace a worn or broken firing pin in most semi-automatics. Will there be a mandate to have replacement firing pins engraved with the same or another set of numbers? Who pays for and administers all the tracking databases including for spare parts? How accurate are the databases--like when the No Fly list show(s) a five-year old as a terrorist?

A stolen gun would not come back to the shooter, but would indicate the last owner who is now a suspect and must be cleared of suspicion. As the article points out, revolvers don't leave spent cartridges at the scene.

Finally, remember this is microstamping. The numbers are tiny. Five seconds with a file and magically the numbers are gone and the gun still works...

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 01:08 PM

23. Microstamping is ineffective - regardless of cost.

 

Requiring people to ahere to a set of laws that are ineffective in achieving desired goals is nothing more than a poor tradeoff. The people get zero benefits in exchange for less freedom. Fuck That.

Microstamping can be criminally defeated in about 5 minutes with a nail file, simply using a cheap revolver, or dropping a handfull of random range-brass at the crime scene.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 01:16 PM

25. Well...

You can't change stupid, unlike these ridiculous stamps.

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Response to Callisto32 (Reply #25)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 01:23 PM

26. In the infamous words of Ron White

 

you can't fix stupid.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 02:38 PM

28. LOL! Wow, looks like you managed to send the entire pro-gunner clan into convulsions!

God forbid the price of a gun goes up by $10 in order to make it easier for police officers to solve gun crimes!

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Response to DanTex (Reply #28)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 02:58 PM

30. What part of this doesn't work

 

do you not understand?
This can be defeated in so many different ways. Unless the cops get a shell casing from a gun that hasn't been fired very much, it would be useless.
Just another banners useless law that would do nothing to help solve crimes.

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Response to SGMRTDARMY (Reply #30)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:03 PM

32. Yes, I've heard the NRA talking points, but thanks for repeating them one more time! nt

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Response to DanTex (Reply #32)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:05 PM

33. NRA talking points?

 

Thanks for the VPC and Brady talking points.
See I can do it too.

So prove what I have said is wrong instead of trying to smear what I said.
I'll wait.

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Response to SGMRTDARMY (Reply #33)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:08 PM

45. Learn to laugh

All the gun control supporters have going for them is "online indignation".

They haven't had a legislative or judicial win in over a decade and their only contribution to supporting their "cause" in the real world is a series of rude, unsupported rants and whines. Hell, I asked weeks ago for a link to a single, serious Dem candidate actually running for a major office with stronger gun control as a major part of their platform. Still waiting.

None of the control supporters are actually doing anything out in the real world, like starting petitions, joining Brady or any other gun control organization. Hell, even if they wanted to, outside of this forum by Skinner, there isn't a single Gun Control website out there that allows any actual two sided discussion of the issues. No grass roots and no popular support either. Just a lot of poutrage combined with feeble attempts to to get posters here banned and the forum closed and "sanitized for their protection".

In the meantime the last state (mine) is looking at finally passing CCW, no state is even thinking about repealing it, in fact carry laws are getting more liberal in most states, and even after all the "Sturm und Drang" over the Fla SYG laws, they are actually doing nothing about it.

The entire strategy for more gun control seems to be; "Write more angry, rude online posts about it!"

So learn to laugh at them, it really seems to piss them off that no one takes them seriously. All while violent crime continues to drop.

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Response to DonP (Reply #45)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 06:55 PM

60. Dodge. Please address the subject at hand.

 

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #60)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 08:29 PM

66. Some excellent ... and very familiar characters there. ntxt

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Response to DonP (Reply #66)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 12:04 AM

80. I actually meant that for DanTex...

 

didn't mean to accuse you of anything. Please accept my apology.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #80)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 09:56 AM

88. No problem, I figured something like that. But thanks for bringing it to the forum. ntxt

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Response to DanTex (Reply #32)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 05:30 PM

103. Heard them, and ignored them.

Because I haven't seen you do anything to refute them. Does the fact that it's a talking point make it any less true, or any less devastating to the idiotic notion of microstamping?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #28)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:00 PM

31. All for laws that reduce or help solve crime

A 2008 National Academy of Sciences report said there was not yet conclusive evidence that the markings produced by a gun are identical over time and under different conditions.

two early studies finding that the full numeric code could be read only about half the time on shell casings. In addition, they say, criminals could file off the code or replace the firing pin. And the technology would not apply to revolvers, which do not discharge cartridge casings.


This ain't it.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #31)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:07 PM

34. Careful now

 

you will be accused of using NRA talking points to smear your post.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #31)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:10 PM

35. I think the NAS study was referring to regular ballistics, not microstamping.

Of course, it will not be perfect, but a stamp that shows up half the time is much better than no stamp, particularly if there are several casings at a crime scene, there's a good chance one of them will show up. And the technology will keep improving -- this is 2012, I'm pretty sure we can figure out how to stamp an identifier on a casing.

The NRA's talking points here remind me a lot of wall street banks arguing against financial regulations. They point to the fact that no regulation will be 100% effective, and there will always be ways to get around the laws and blah blah blah. This doesn't have to solve all crimes in order to be worthwhile.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #35)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:21 PM

37. The subject was microstamping

there is a whole other issue with case and bullet ballistic markings changing over time. Something CSI:Billings overlooks.

I agree with the point that it does not have to solve all crimes. The Brady talking point would likely be "If it only solves one crime..."

We have to look at the overall cost/benefit. The economics is variable between $200 and $12 per gun. That needs to be brought closer to what the actual cost would be. Will states have consistent requirements or can each set up its own version of microstamping. It will allow tracing to the original owner, what about reselling? Is this a back door to full registration? How will this affect guns already in circulation, will they have to be retrofit? How many crimes per year is it guestimated that it will help solve. Will it be more effective than the Canadian registry experience?

If the technology can be made reliable, at a reasonable cost and show how it will lead to solve crimes and not just hassle gun owners I would be very willing to consider it.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #37)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:40 PM

40. Some valid questions.

Since I think handguns should be registered anyway, the whole "backdoor to registration" argument doesn't matter to me. But even without registration, I think microstamping would be a good idea. As for the cost per gun, $200 is the estimate from the gun industry, so I give it as much weight as I give any industry that is trying to avoid regulations.

As for the "solving just one crime" argument, the value of a "statistical human life" is generally estimated at around $5M to $10M, for the sake of things like trying to figure out how much safety regulation is economically efficient. As an estimate, let's say it's costs $10 per gun, and 20 million guns are sold every year in the US. That means it would have to save between 20 and 40 lives per year nationwide in order to be worthwhile. I'm pretty sure that just having a national handgun registry, even without the microstamping, would save more lives per year than that.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #40)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:49 PM

42. I would support

registration if not for how it has been used historically.

The other side of the cost besides the cold calculations of the value of a life (not a slam, just the way things work) is the cost to those who will get caught up in the system through error, accident and identification.

I have to run but will expand on this later

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #42)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 09:24 PM

72. as i was saying

I believe the gun manufacturers $200 claim as much as I believe the $12 claim. There will be a cost of retooling and if each state can set separate standards, it could be prohibitively expensive. It makes me wounder if this is a new tactic by anti-gun municipalities since the plan to sue manufacturers didn't work out.

If the Canadian experience is an example, we would not see 20+ crimes a year solved.

One benefit I do see is it would be a good incentive to report a stolen gun, just so if it shows up at a crime scene the prior owner is not the subject of a witch hunt.
Unfortunately, many gun owners are less than model citizens. Not saying that they break any laws but they can often match the stereotype RW beer guzzling good ol' boy. They could be subject to the easy witch hunt and that would be as unfair as frisking every long-haired teen skateboarder for marijuana.

Rather than throwing up half measures that make pro-controllers look like gun-grabbing zealots, (ala AWB) I would rather wait until we can find a policy, backed with a technology that can serve the purpose for reducing crime and convicting criminals while following the most open interpretation of the 2A

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Response to DanTex (Reply #28)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:13 PM

36. Any proposal that requires gun registration sends them into a tizzy.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #36)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:22 PM

38. Your damn right it does

 

The govt. has no fucking right to know what I own. All registration does is give the govt a list of gun owners which can possibly be used for confiscation in the future. And don't tell me it hasn't happened, it happened in CA. with so called assault weapons.

You may trust the govt., I have a healthy mistrust of govt. when it comes to firearms.

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Response to SGMRTDARMY (Reply #38)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:09 PM

46. Or a list that helps them solve a crime or track down back alley gun deals.


I'll trust the government and the judicial system before I'd trust someone who sticks a gun in their pants to walk down a city street.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #46)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 06:26 PM

56. So how are you on surveillance drones over US cities?

Still trust the government more?

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #36)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:26 PM

39. Gun registration? Why do you HATE FREEDOM!

Everyone knows gun registration is the first step towards FEMA death camps!!!

(yes, here in the gungeon it's necessary...)

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #36)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:45 PM

41. So, when can we expect you to register your computer? Without complaint? n/t

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #41)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:56 PM

43. Your computer is already "registered" by your IP address.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #43)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:37 PM

50. you have that confused with MAC address.

If you change ISPs, have a dynamic addressing (most people do), or move down the street, the IP address changes. Of course, if you get a new ether card, modem etc. your MAC address changes.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #50)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 05:04 PM

51. But I use a PC

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #50)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 05:20 PM

52. Thanks, I know the difference between an IP address and a MAC address.

They can both be used to identify your computer on a network.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #52)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 05:33 PM

53. but it is not registration,

in the same sense guns are registered. It more like a street address. It is a poor analogy.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #53)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 05:47 PM

54. And that's why I used quotes for "registered"

Here's an idea. Why don't we place chips in firearms with MAC addresses that will connect to an IP address when the weapon is discharged and leave a record of use? Would that be an acceptable method of "registration"?

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #54)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 06:53 PM

58. No.

 

Let's see you engineer the power supply, chipset, and radio antenna in a package that could easily and cheaply (very cheaply) integrate with all current personal firearms. Now who is going to pay for the management of a database tracking 300,000,000+ firearms?


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Response to Clames (Reply #58)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 07:01 PM

61. Not to mention that it needs reception

and must be tamper-resistant! I'm loath to mention it, but it would also be nice if you found a way to make the tracking of individual firearms discharges consistent with the desperate scenario of resistance against the government?

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #43)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 09:37 PM

75. So the federal government can just type in your name...

...say, Mike Smith, and come up with a list of all the computers you own?

Even ones you have but are not turned on, or not connected to the internet?

And of course you've filled out the required paperwork and paid a registration fee, right?



Does the local or state government get to make the privilege of computer ownership "may issue", or "shall issue"?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #28)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 06:54 PM

59. When are you going to actually rebut the critiques of the plan?

 

Half-past-never, is my guess.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:07 PM

44. I think opposition by gun owners is their fear they might pull a Zimmerman and want to run away.


You'll hear it doesn't work with revolvers, folks can file off the stamping mechanism, it might increase the cost of a gun a few dollars, a criminal will grab a handful at the range and frame some "law-abiding gun owner, and similar BS.

Fact is, if it helps solve a few crimes, it is worth it. Might even keep a few cowboys from shooting when it's not necessary.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #44)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:09 PM

47. I'm terrified that I'll get caught on one of my weekend shooting sprees

The purpose of microstamping legislation is to create mandatory profit for microstamp tech manufacturers, and drive up the price of firearms by perhaps hundreds of dollars in order to impede the exercise of a civil right.

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Response to Glaug-Eldare (Reply #47)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:21 PM

48. Got a citation from someone not affiliated with right wing gun organizations about the cost.

It would cost nowhere near that.

It might adversely impact the price of newer guns in back alley deals.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #48)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:37 PM

49. Would you count the NSSF?

http://www.nssf.org/factsheets/microstamping.cfm

The cost per gun depends on what the legislator's brother-in-law, erm, the copyright holder for microstamping technology, wants to charge for it. Unless you intend to place a price cap in the law (which I can safely assume you don't) then there's no telling what the end cost to the consumer will be.

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Response to Glaug-Eldare (Reply #49)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 07:59 PM

64. I'm surprised you'd even ask question -- might as well quote NRA, Free Republic, Soldier of Fortune,

Stormfront, Minutemen, TBaggers or hundreds of local right wing gun groups. Just more obfuscation from gun industry and it's right wing supporters.

Sources I have seen say cost would be less than $12 per gun. Triple it, I don't care -- it's still a proposal worthwhile, unless you want to consider registration.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #64)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 08:01 PM

65. what sources are those? NT.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #65)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 09:22 PM

71. This is as objective as some site frequented by right wingers and/or those who profit from guns.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #71)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 09:26 PM

73. I agree, it is about as objective as GOA

since one company seems to have the monopoly on the technology, I'm guessing there is a chance that this is an astroturf group set up by the company?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #64)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 08:30 PM

67. NSSF is pretty tame, really.

Sad truth is, the numbers are going to depend entirely on the point of view of the source. You will never trust a pro-gun source, I will never trust an anti-gun source, and I don't see any neutral sources or, frankly, the possibility of neutrality. There's only one company (a Hitachi brand, I believe) which has the ability to set the price. Might as well require that all cars be equipped with some particular gadget from Motorola, and only from Motorola.

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Response to Glaug-Eldare (Reply #67)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 09:16 PM

69. If a site that promotes more gun is tame, what do you normally read?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #69)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 09:28 PM

74. Different mindset, different standard.

But either way, NSSF is for sportsmen. It's about the use of firearms for hunting and target shooting, not for defense. They tend to be more placid about the whole gun rights issue.

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Response to Glaug-Eldare (Reply #74)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 10:48 PM

77. It's a "trade association for the firearms industry." It's not for sportsmen -- excepting selling

crud to them.

BTW -- that's how NSSF describes themselves.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #64)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 08:36 PM

68. Sources you've seen...

 

...don't have any facts to back up that $12/per gun claim. What you in fact read was a failed piece of legislation that mandated it would not cost more that $12/gun. Nice bit of misrepresentation you tried there Hoyt. Fortunately most here are educated enough to see through such claims...



U.C. Davis did a study (yeah, let's see you claim RW support there ) on the feasibility of microstamping and came to the conclusion that while it sounds good on paper, it is far from as foolproof as those like you would claim it is.

http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=8643

Corrections.

http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=8163

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Response to Clames (Reply #68)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 09:18 PM

70. Nobody says it's fool proof -- if it works in 5% of cases, it's good. Nothing is foolproof.

Last edited Fri Jun 15, 2012, 02:50 PM - Edit history (1)

That's a favorite tactic of those who promote more guns and oppose every proposal that might keep a gun toter from getting away with murder -- if it's not 100%, it's no good.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #70)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 02:27 PM

90. Try 0% -- those were the results for COBIS in New York.

Microstamping is just a refinement of COBIS. It's a forensic shortcut (akin to having people's names and Social Security numbers engraved into their fingerprints), but it's the same investigative process: recovering brass from a crime scene to match it to a registered semi-automatic handgun. In New York State's experience, in ten years COBIS did not solve one single crime. Not one. Zero percent. Capisci?

Ballistic fingerprinting is useful as corroborating evidence when a weapon has already been recovered. As far as identifying a shooter from brass left at the scene? Not so much, apparently.

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #90)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 02:58 PM

91. Let's see, we find "brass" at the scene. It has a microstamp. We look on database for the


microstamp. Ah, there it is. Gun is registered to Randy Weaver. OK, let's go talk to Mr. Weaver and find out whether he still has the gun. If not, who did he sell it to? If he says it was stolen, we ask when and where? In any event, we know something about that gun, who owned it at one time, where it switched hands, when, etc.

I think that is invaluable information for a crime investigation.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #91)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 03:34 PM

93. Look who still isn't paying attention...

 

Do you even grasp what microstamping is? Do you not understand that all firearms technically already microstamp a unique pattern onto the cases and bullets they fire due to microscopic details left by the machines that made them? COBIS failed with microstamping....period.

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Response to Clames (Reply #93)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 03:43 PM

94. Do you not understand that if all guns manufactured in the future had microStamping,


at some point in the future it would be very useful. "COBIS" failed -- if you want to call it that -- because it is a long-term solution that works best when ALL guns are subjected to it.

To do that, we have to get the gun obstructionists out of the way, but they just keep whining and whining while more and more guns pollute society. The gun obstructionists will beach and moan for another decade, and we will have another 100 million guns to deal with when our leaders finally come to their senses and get the guts to deal with the whining gun culture.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #94)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 01:22 AM

95. "...more and more guns pollute society" Gee, where have we seen this sort of language before?

Oh, yeah:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_of_the_Innocent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

Moral panic

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A moral panic is the intensity of feeling expressed in a population about an issue that appears to threaten the social order. According to Stanley Cohen, author of Folk Devils and Moral Panics (1972) and credited as creator of the term, a moral panic occurs when " condition, episode, person or group of persons emerges to become defined as a threat to societal values and interests." Those who start the panic when they fear a threat to prevailing social or cultural values are known by researchers as "moral entrepreneurs," while people who supposedly threaten the social order have been described as "folk devils."


Protip: Don't give up your day job, Hoyt...


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Response to Hoyt (Reply #94)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:28 AM

96. You don't understand that what you are asking for is nothing but a pipedream...

 

...suitable for anti-gun religionists. Even if every gun made starting today had microstamping there are still 300,000,000+ million guns that don't. Complete idiocy to think that microstamping it's some sort of magic cure. I'm not surprised at those that champion it here do though.

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Response to Clames (Reply #96)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:33 AM

97. It will be of value with the next 100 million guns manufactured to feed the gun culture.


I think that is significant.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #97)

Sat Jun 16, 2012, 11:42 AM

98. Ah, more Reagan style "Trickle Down Gun Control"

Treat all guns and gun owners as if they are, or shortly will be, criminals and eventually you might catch a real crook. Hasn't worked anywhere that's tried it and millions of $ have been wasted, but you guys will try anything to finally win one.

That'll work about as well as Trickle Down Economics did.

But considering the gun control crowd and the supporters of it on this board, won't even get off the couch to write a letter to the editor, start a petition or do anything besides whine online and write more angry/rude/ignorant posts, I'm not going to worry too much about this latest hair brained scheme actually coming to pass.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #94)

Mon Jun 18, 2012, 02:50 AM

99. Do you not understand that if I had a flying unicorn ...

... I wouldn't need a car?

"COBIS" failed -- if you want to call it that -- because it is a long-term solution that works best when ALL guns are subjected to it.

Yes. I want to call it that. Any crime-prevention program that doesn't get single conviction in 10 years is a failure. F-A-I-L-U-R-E.

So let's say your pipe-dream comes true and every single state in the ever-loving Union mandates microstamping. The occasional crime of passion by a licensed owner might be solved. The majority of violent felonies will continue to be accomplished with illegally obtained and/or defaced weapons that will remain untraceable. And then there are the revolvers. Oh yeah, those pesky revolvers. They don't leave brass behind. Drat! Foiled again.

Microstamping is a joke. Criminals laugh at it.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #44)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 07:12 PM

62. It won't work

 

As soon as you fire the first round, the stamp starts to wear down. It won't work, a nail file or regular file can take care of the stamp. It won't work, shell casings can be planted at a crime scene to throw off an investigation. It won't work because all someone has to do is police their shell casings. It won't work with revolvers.

Continue to stick your head in the sand, but it won't work.
I see your back to your usual name calling again, didn't take long did it?

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Response to SGMRTDARMY (Reply #62)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 10:49 PM

78. Fine, it will work until it wears off -- you'll still be able to identify something that will help

narrow down gun used in some murders. Doesn't have to work all, or even most, of the time to be worthwhile.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #78)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 12:15 AM

81. Well, yes, actually... it does.

 

You knowledge of mechanics and physics seems... faulty... at best... for someone who can field-strip a 1911 underwater.

P.S. Have you ever heard of items called "emery board" or "emery cloth"?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #81)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 12:23 AM

82. It will help catch the Zimmermans who run. Guess you are against that.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #82)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 01:51 AM

84. No it won't, if it only works, at best, at a 5% rate.

 

But yeah, I am against stupid things that won't work... and stupid people who won't think.

At least I don't accuse DUers of wanting to murder people.

Take your crap elsewhere.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #84)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 09:08 AM

86. Then support some reasonable restrictions on guns -- never accused a DUer of wanting to

murder people.

I have accused much of the gun culture here of being so selfish -- and so caught up in their guns -- that we have to put up with laws backed by lobbying organizations for right wingers who are prepared to shoot someone first chance they get.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #86)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:02 PM

100. Your denials are unconvincing.

... never accused a DUer of wanting to

murder people.

You come very close to it all the time. Your weasel-wording doesn't hide the intention of your insinuations.

Again, sounds to me that some of you are concerned that you might not use a gun as legally as you profess.

--http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=45061

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #44)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 07:21 PM

63. Hate the gungeon, but gotta say

If fingerprint ID is legal, I have no idea why this would be in any way controversial.

LEAVE GUN OWNERS ALLLLOONE. I MEAN IT1!!111!

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 05:57 PM

55. Another useless law.

Criminals are not legally required to register their guns as it would violate their 5A rights.

In any case, you would need to outlaw brass catchers too.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:54 PM

79. Proponents of the program could mandate that the excess cost be a refundable

sales tax deduction - that would take away one of the opponents' arguments at least...

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 12:54 AM

83. The usual suspects ...

... love this one. But then, they've never met a piece of gun control legislation they didn't like.

Matching brass left at a crime scene to the gun that fired it is not a new concept. New York had the COBIS (Combined Ballistic Information System) until very recently. That was a physical archive of fired shell casings that could be matched to casings from the same gun by using microscopes to match breech impressions. Instead of reading a neat little number, examiners would have to do something more akin to a fingerprint match. However, it's the same essential theory: pick up brass at the crime scene and match it to the gun that fired it. New semi-autos had to be fired once to provide the casing for the COBIS archive. If the manufacturer chose not to do this, it had to be done by the seller at the State Police range.

So how well did it work? Not very.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/cuomo_whacks_pataki_gun_law_IdjMJUXtMATKjhzqCOJLAK

We could talk why it doesn't work, but the pro-gun-rights crowd already knows and the anti-gun-rights crowd will just go on blathering about "NRA talking points" with their fingers firmly implanted in their ears. The short version is that very few criminals in New York use guns that are legally registered to them -- despite the fact that New York law requires registration of all handguns. Got that? We have registration, and ballistic fingerprinting still doesn't work.

Keep in mind that microstamping is just an extension of ballistic fingerprinting, as if we had our names and social security numbers engraved on our fingertips instead of all those wacky loops and whorls. It wasn't the technology that failed in COBIS; it was the basic premise. Can you match a shell to the gun that fired it? Technogically, yes. Realistically, only if a complex set of behavioral variables are in alignment. The problem is that they rarely are -- almost never, in fact.

Yeah, that Andrew Cuomo. What an NRA stooge -- nothing more than a pro-gun hand-puppet, really.

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #83)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 09:32 AM

87. Every handgun I have ever purchased comes with 2 cases in a little envelope.

I always laugh and shake my head, then keep them in the box the firearm came in, just so it can amuse me every time I see it.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 07:52 AM

85. Thank you for the compliment.

Your realize some of the political power that gunowners have. We have been able to block this sillly feel-good law that would accomplish nothing at great cost.

Such a law could make it easier to frame someone. Get one of their expened casings, do the crime, pick up the real brass (Or better, use a revolver.) and drop the fake brass, just make sure the calibers match.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 10:41 AM

89. I will register 1 gun for every

 

for every hardrive accessible by you that you allow .GOV unfettered 24/7 access to. You have nothing to hide, and it IS for the common good eh komrade?

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 03:22 PM

92. Headline should read "State of CA... Owned by Gun Nuts".

 




In California, legislation signed by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger in 2007 has been held up while the attorney general’s office makes sure the technology is unencumbered by patents, as the microstamping law requires. A gun rights group, the Calguns Foundation, went so far as to pay a $555 fee to extend a lapsing patent held by the developer to further delay the law from taking effect.


Awesome... I love it... pure and simple genius.


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