Gun-toting Michiganders promote 'constitutional carry' at rally

[Meiko]

More and more people are rallying for their rights, it's a good thing.

Published: Saturday, May 19, 2012, 3:13 PM Updated: Saturday, May 19, 2012, 7:06 PM
By Melissa Anders | [email protected]

LANSING, MI — Gun rights activists from throughout Michigan gathered at the Capitol on Saturday to promote easing restrictions on carrying firearms.
The group wants Michigan to become a “constitutional carry” state, where concealed weapon licenses are not required and there generally aren’t restrictions on how or where guns are carried. Vermont, Alaska, Arizona and Wyoming have similar laws.
“What we are trying to accomplish by this rally and future and ongoing efforts, is having our Second Amendment rights restored back to their original intent as laid out in our Constitution by our Founding Fathers,” said John Roshek, president of the Citizens League for Self Defense.
“I don’t know about you, but personally I find it a little absurd that I can walk down the street, I can lawfully open carry, but if I want to put my coat on because it's cold or If I want to get in my car, I have to get a permission slip from the state and I have to pay a fee on top of that,” he said to a crowd of about 100 people as the rally kicked off Saturday afternoon.
Michigan allows residents to openly carry legally owned firearms without a license except for in certain pistol-free areas. There also are restrictions on transporting guns without a license. Concealed pistol license holders may carry guns hidden from view in certain areas.
Lawmakers are considering a major overhaul of the concealed handgun law that would streamline licensing and allow permit holders with extra training to carry hidden handguns in “gun-free” zones like schools, college classrooms, and other places they are now banned.
Related: Sweeping changes proposed for Michigan concealed handgun law
Grand Rapids resident Tim Beahan, 54, supports the legislation.
“Right now we have a patchwork of agencies that are taking care of the concealed pistol licenses and unfortunately there’s no consistency,” he said, adding that some jurisdictions take much longer to administer licenses than others.
But given the choice, he’d prefer Michigan remove restrictions and become the fifth “constitutional carry” state. Beahan and his wife, Sandra, said they open carry to protect themselves from people who may view them as an easy target.
Those in favor of gun control say stricter regulations save lives and help keep guns away from dangerous people. Constitutional carry supporters say just the opposite.
“It will not increase crime, and very likely, in places like Detroit where they’ve had great restrictions and in other anti-Second Amendment jurisdictions, you’re going to see crime go down, because the crooks are going to know, ‘Uh oh, he might be carrying, she might be carrying,’” said Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, a national lobby group based in Springfield, Va.
For 14-year-old Bretta Overly of Lansing and her friend, Alexis Farmer, 13, of Grand Ledge, both said they feel safer knowing their fathers have guns.
They also plan to carry firearms when they’re old enough. Michigan residents must be 18 to openly carry and 21 to apply for a concealed pistol license.
Jeremiah Chesney, 22, of Jackson, said he carries his shotgun down the street to desensitize the public.
“There are some people who react very strongly and negatively, but I think the more that people see firearms carried peacefully, the less they’ll expect sort of action-movie things to happen,” he said. “I think there are a lot of people whose only exposure to firearms is through violence in films. I don’t think that’s constructive.”
Email Melissa Anders at [email protected]. Follow her on Twitter: @MelissaDAnders.

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/05/gun-toting_michiganders_promot.html

[jdlaughead]

1. Red Ink Republicans

Wanting to shed more Red Blood, The color of the GOP!

[elleng]

2. Right.

'Original intent' was as a MILITIA, in spite of what supremes said.
Soldier-up, folks.

[TPaine7]

5. Sigh. If only the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment had understood the Constitution!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=300206&mesg_id=300331

[elleng]

6. 'A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state

the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.'

[PavePusher]

10. "...the right of the people..."

is the operative phrase.

I see no "right of the militia". Perhaps you can cite to binding court decisions/precendent?

[elleng]

13. This is where I disagree with you and the Supremes;

the paragraph leads with the premise that, as a well regulated militia is necessary 'to the security of a free state,' 'the people,' not each person, has a right to 'bear arms,' in furtherance of that purpose.

[TPaine7]

14. The "in furtherance of that purpose" clause isn't in my copy of the Constitution.

Do "'the people,' not each person" have the right "to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects"?

Why were the people who wrote the 14th Amendment so confused that they explicitly applied the Second Amendment to individuals and explicitly called it a "personal right" to be enforced against the states? Why did they do this even though states clearly had the power to regulate their own militias and regulation is so clearly mentioned in the Second Amendment? Could it be that the need for a corporate militia justified the enforcement of a personal, individual right of the people--a personal right like the "right of the people to be secure..."?

How would you correct the authors of the Constitution--the guys who wrote the 14th Amendment--if you could go back in time?

[RLEmerysgt]

30. Didnt do well in English composition or history we see...

The second amendment as RATIFIED by the state’s.

“A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

Maybe you can explain how for the entire history of English language, that the independent clause, a complete sentence capable of conveying a clear meaning, and must first exist for a dependent clause to have meaning, has always set the meaning of the complex sentence. (“the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”)

Yet some now infer the dependent clause, an incomplete sentence, incapable of conveying a clear meaning (A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State) is now the determinator of the complex sentence meaning and history and English scholars have all been wrong throughout the history of written English. Have at it, but warn us when Hades will be freezing over for you actually having data to support your claim.

Lets see, have you removed the 30 plus references from the congressional writings 1774-1789 & the federalist papers showing well regulated as to meaning well trained in the arts of war? Much less all those dictionaries that say the same thing? No, you haven’t. Reference Karpeles Museum, CA.

http://www.rain.org/%7Ekarpeles/

Maybe you removed that original draft of what became the second amendment. You know, the one that was clearly written as a collective right, but then was changed to what exists today. Why did our founding fathers change the amendment draft if it was what they wanted? Oh that’s right, actions do speak louder than words. Ref Karpeles Museum, CA again.

original proposed draft 
of 
the right to keep and bear arms 
of the 
BILL of RIGHTS 
 17 TH of 20 amendments)
on display at the Karpeles Manuscript Library 
Santa Ana, California

"That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated Militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free State. That standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power."

http://www.wemett.net/2nd_amendment_(original_draft).html

Then of course, here is the logic failure the anti’s always have. They always fail to prove, that the miltia existed before the armed individual. See that is the only logical way a legal arguement can be made that being armed is due only to the pre-existance of the militia, but then hades has frozen over eh?

Funny how all that was before the 2008 rulings eh?

Funny how in the 2008 Heller ruling all 9 justices agreed that bearing arms was an individual right. That 5-4 vote was on the constitutionality of the Washington D.C. gun ban, read it, you will see!

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf

Being that all these facts destroy any lame claim of a collective right, when all rights are individual rights affirmed by the BOR, and multiple supreme court rulings that "the people does indeed refer to "individuals", we really dont care what you believe, you cant disprove these facts.

[PavePusher]

33. I'll ask again: please cite to evidence supporting your claim. N/T

[TPaine7]

11. Perfectly correct.

And if you bothered to read my historical citations, the Supreme Court correctly applied that long before Scalia's parents were conceived when it said that the right to keep and bear arms along with other rights were "rights of person" and when it said that citizens had the right to travel freely in every state and to carry arms wherever they went. Of course "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" means an individual right, just like "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures" means an individual right.

The Framers of the Fourteenth Amendment publicly, explicitly and intentionally set out to defend the "personal" right against states violations. To snatch the Amendment from its historical context and press a strained meaning on the words is not legitimate.

So the original Second Amendment, the Supreme Court on its first mention, the Framers of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Heller Court and I all agree that the right belongs to the people--that is to individuals. Won't you join us?

[petronius]

9. The original intent was to make possible the formation of militias if/when needed,

an armed populace being a necessary precondition for that formation. There's no reasonable way to interpret it as saying that only militias have the RKBA, or that a member of the people must be actively and currently enrolled in a militia to have that right...

[Glaug-Eldare]

12. What is the militia?

I'm willing to bet $10 you're a bonafide member of at least one gov't-regulated militia, and probably two.

[geckosfeet]

3. I do not see anything in the article expressing a desire to shed blood.

In fact the claim is just the opposite. Allowing people to arm themselves results in a decrease in violent crime.

[Hoyt]

4. Not true, more guns do not decrease crime. Other factors at work.

But NRA and other right wing gunsters - including bigoted "militias" - like to spread such bull.

[TPaine7]

8. It may be just an inconvenient coincidence that as guns and gun carry has gone up, crime has moved

in the opposite direction.

The truly inconvenient fact is that in Texas in 2009, there was a single murder and no manslaughter committed by 402,914 concealed carry permit holders. That definitely goes against "reality."

We know that allowing people who aren't special--billionaires, movie stars, politicians, mob bosses, etc.--to carry guns in public causes more crime. How the statistics were bent so that they don't match the reality is a troubling puzzle, wouldn't you agree?

I suspect the "NRA and other right wing gunsters" are involved somehow.

[bongbong]

15. More fantasies from the gun religionists

No connection can be made between lower crime rates & more guns. NONE.

The gun religionists need to create fantasies to defend their poor widdle guns.

[GreenStormCloud]

17. The stats are against you.

You can post all the that you want to, it doesn't change the stats. I have poven in another thread that legal carry saves many innocent lives and takes very few innocent lives.

[bongbong]

26. proof

> I have poven in another thread that legal carry saves many innocent lives and takes very few innocent lives.

You might have "poven" it, but you haven't proven anything. Your lack of knowledge of statistics & logic is the only thing you've proven.

[PavePusher]

34. We eagarly await your evidence.

Any day now, I'm sure....

[safeinOhio]

19. Breaking news

Deaths from car accidents have also been lower over the same period. Also the price of gas has gone up.

[gejohnston]

21. people are driving less

and fewer Sunday drives in the country, because of the price in gas.

[safeinOhio]

23. Perhaps that is the correlation

of less crime, less driving.

[gejohnston]

24. correlation has nothing to do with causation

it could be climate change.

[safeinOhio]

25. Good catch, as that

is my point. Many here point to more guns and less crime.

[gejohnston]

27. they are not claiming causation

they are simply pointing out that more guns does not mean more murder.

[Hoyt]

37. They may not "claiming causation," but they still try to use twisted stats to rationalize strapping

on guns before walking into a public park, restaurant, movie, church, etc.

Hell, the only way most know about "causation" is from reading right wing gun culture BS and Free Republic. A favorite tactic of right wing gun promoters is saying stuff like "there are more people carrying now and less crime" and then claiming they never said "causation" if questioned on it.

[gejohnston]

38. a statement of fact is

a statement of fact

[InanimateObject]

45. A favorite tactic of the anti gun extremists..

... is to fear monger and infer the law abiding gun owners are responsible for all that violence, when as noted government recognizes over 92% of deaths are career criminals and suiciders.

Then not to mention the absolute failure of the anti gun extremists to prove more guns in law abiding gun owners hands equals more violence, a consistent failure on their part.

Funny thing about causation as also previously noted in another blog, if a bad guy gets shot and killed, are they able to commit another crime, no they are not! Where there is smoke, there is combustion and where there is combustion there is fire!

You were challenged by another poster to make a comparison list, scared to do so? No, we know you are unable to, so sad!

[TPaine7]

28. You are so confused.

My first sentence...

It may be just an inconvenient coincidence that as guns and gun carry has gone up, crime has moved in the opposite direction.

... is an acknowledgement that there may be no connection between lower crime rates and more guns.

You're mocking me for admitting that you may be right.

Your real problem, if you read what I said, is the extremely low murder and manslaughter rate among licensees.

Reality does not support the gun control idea that ordinary people can't be trusted with the ability to legally carry concealed guns.

[bongbong]

42. rhetoric

> You're mocking me for admitting that you may be right.

Not mocking you personally, just the people who buy into the NRA lies, and worship guns.

> Reality does not support the gun control idea that ordinary people can't be trusted with the ability to legally carry concealed guns.

Your rhetoric proves no such thing. Cases like Zimmerman prove exactly the opposite. Yes, you are confused.

[InanimateObject]

47. Since the Zimmerman case has not been tried...

...yet, nothing has been proven there!

[bongbong]

48. Nothing

I could've sworn a guy got killed by a wannabe vigilante! Maybe I read the newspaper upside down or something.

[oneshooter]

51. So without a trial, you have found Zimmerman guilty.

Are you willing to pull the lever on him?

[bongbong]

53. Still LOL

So Zimmerman, who said he shot Trayvon, isn't guilty of murder????

Wow, I see now how gun-religion denies rational thought just like regular religion.

[oneshooter]

58. Are you willing to pull the lever on him?

Since you are convinced he is guilty, without a trial of his peers. Are you willing?

Oneshooter

[gejohnston]

60. look up the definition of murder

all murders are homicides, but not all homicides are murders

[GreenStormCloud]

64. It in increasing looking like self-defense.

Self-defense isn't murder. He can't be judged guilty without a trial. You seem to be willing to do without due process.

[InanimateObject]

55. Funny, you have proven self defense and justifiable homicide...

... equals vigilnatism, oh shucky darn, you have not proven anything yet again!

So lets see the court cases ruling that only the police can use lethal force to defend themselves or the public.

Lets see you post the court cases and the law from the beginning of our country and show how self defense and justifiable homicide were illegal then!

Warn us when you have that data so we can dress warm for hades freezing over, LOL!

Vigilante
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with vigilant.
For other uses, see Vigilante (disambiguation).

A vigilante is a private individual (or (pl.) group of individuals) who presumes to carry out extralegal punishment in defiance of existing law.

(Since self defense and justifiable homicide is not in violation of existing law, you lose)

Please respond with the emotional blather we have come to expect!

[Glaug-Eldare]

63. It's true, though

"Yes, I shot him"

is not a confession of murder. There is such a thing as justifiable homicide, and that's what the criminal case is about. Nobody is disputing that Trayvon Martin was shot by George Zimmerman, but it IS being disputed whether it was an offensive or defensive shooting. Any argument which begins from the statement "he's a murderer, all gun owners are like him, I bet he's an NRA life member and this and that" is just utter horseshit. I prefer jury trials over convictions based on cable news marquees.

[Union Scribe]

29. Oh, geez. Still using that?

I guess you couldn't come up with anything better eh?

[RLEmerysgt]

31. Funny how all the governments data...

... proves more firearms in law abiding citizens hands does not equal more violence.

We see from US Census, and an average of NSSF & PEW surveys, that in 2009 40% of households have a firearm. That is an increase since 1997 of 9 million households to 80 million law abiding gun owners as recognized by the BATF.

We see that since 1997 per FBI UCR, that violent crime has gone from 611 VCR (Violent Crime Reported) per 100k people to 429 VCR per 100k people in 2009.

That is a 30% reduction in violent crime. Did we forget to mention that the same data shows a 20% reduction in murders?

All while at the same time we see 13-16 more states reinstated concealed carry to 49 states total, and 35 states reinstated concealed carry in eateries that serve alcohol. 4 states and 72 universities reinstated concealed carry.

All without the predicted and much cried about blood baths predicted by such pundits suggests for oh what, something like the millionth time, yep. Those anti gun soothsayers really suck at predicting violence and mayhem from the law-abiding citizen, every single time. Hope they aren’t trying to make a living as a soothsayer they are starving if they do.

So much for more guns equals in law abiding citizens hands equals more crimes BS anti gun extremists like to have you believe.

Of course there are other countries that have recently tried gun bans, what effect did that have on their violence?

1997 Australia, Canada, England

Australia 1997 629 VCR per 100k 2007 1,024 VCR per 100k, a 32 person reduction in murders by firearms, exactly replaced by murders with knives. Funny how that trend was mirrored in England (ref http://www.aic.gov.au/en/publications/current%20series/facts.aspx)

Canada 1997 980 VCR per 100k people 2009 1,324 VCR per 100k people, murder rose from 560 to 610 (Ref Statcan) http://www5.statcan.gc.ca/subject-sujet/subtheme-soustheme.action;jsessionid=8D2AA1C6360138D81357F63393EC6C97?pid=2693&id=2102&lang=eng&more=0

Canada $2 billion dollar plus registry, that hasn’t solved one crime, such a common trend.

England 1997 820 VCR per 100k people 2009 1,667 VCR per 100k people, murders have reduced to 1997 levels after a 25% increase. (ref Home Office UK) http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/

So much for less firearms in law abiding citizens hands equals less violence, a trend found in every single gun ban country, prove otherwise. Oh, use government data to try if you want, the above references ARE their government databases.

[Hoyt]

40. Funny how you guys never consider crime rate might be significantly lower without all the guns.

Zimmerman certainly wouldn't have killed T Martin had he not been packing. In fact, Zimmie would not have gotten out of his car except for his "pocket protector."

[gejohnston]

41. because evidence does not suggest crime rates ever drop

they have not dropped anyplace.
Zimmerman still would have gotten out of the car. Zimmerman would not have killed Martin, but Martin could have killed Zimmerman or put him in the hospital, if that account is true.

[InanimateObject]

46. Where is your fact backed up by more...

... than your opinion?

You a world famous fortune teller?

If so, can you tell me the winning numbers for tomorrows Powerball lottery?

You were there?

Do tell as this silly debate started by the media encouragement of mob mentality vigilantism to subvert the existing LEGAL LAW SYSTEM due process based on their half truths and outright lies on the months old Martin-Zimmerman incident is sickening.

Hey, here are some Zimmerman facts.

Zimmerman grew up in a mixed-race household

He was an altar boy at his Caltholic church from age 7-17

He is bilingual

After he finished high school, he studied for and got an insurance license

In 2004, Zimmerman and a BLACK friend opened an Allstate insurance office (which soon failed)
Zimmerman’s 2005 arrest for “resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer” occurred after he shoved an under-cover alcohol control agent at a bar when the agent was trying to arrest an underage friend of his

Zimmerman married his wife, Shellie, in 2007. They rented a house in Twin Lakes. Twin Lakes is about 50% white, 20% Hispanic, and 20% black.

In 2009, Zimmerman enrolled in Seminole State College

In the fall of 2009, a pit bull broke free twice and once cornered Shellie in the Zimmermans’ yard. George Zimmerman asked a police officer whether he should buy pepper spray. The cop told him pepper spray wasn’t fast enough and recommended that he get a gun.

By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes “was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins.” In several of the cases, witnesses said the robbers were young black men

In July 2011, a black teenager stole a bicycle off the Zimmermans’ porch

In August of 2011, a neighbor of the Zimmermans, Olivia Bertalan, was home during the day when two young black men entered her house. She hid in a room upstairs and called the police. When the police arrived, the two men, who had been trying to take a TV, fled. One of them ran through the Zimmermans’ yard.

After the break-in, George Zimmerman stopped by the Bertalans and gave Olivia a card with his name and number on it. He told her to visit his wife Shellie if she felt unsafe.

The police recommended that Bertalan get a dog. She moved away instead. Zimmerman got a second dog–a Rottweiler.

In September, several concerned residents of the neighborhood, including Zimmerman, asked the neighborhood association to create a neighborhood watch. Zimmerman was asked to run it.

In the next month, two more houses in the neighborhood were robbed.

A community newsletter reminded residents to report any crimes to the police and then call “George Zimmerman, our captain.”
On February 2, 2012, Zimmerman spotted a young black man looking into the windows of a neighbor’s empty house. He called the police and said “I don‘t know what he’s doing. I don’t want to approach him, personally.” The police sent a car, but by the time they arrived, the man was gone.

On February 6th, another house was burglarized. Witnesses said two of the robbers were black teenagers. One, who had prior burglary convictions, was soon caught with a laptop stolen from the house.

Two weeks later, Zimmerman spotted Travyon Martin and called the police. The last time he had done this, the suspect got away. This time, he disregarded police DISPATCHER instructions and followed. A few minutes later, Martin was dead.

Is it possible that Zimmerman is an angry racist? It is. But as Business Insider wonders, “doesn’t it make you feel a bit differently about Zimmerman?”

Wow, he is human and not some demon as portrayed by certain individuals and certain portions of the leftist media.

Have at it, but just like all those police incidents, these facts arent manufactured by the NRA, LOL!

[GreenStormCloud]

16. I have already proven that legal toters save more innocent lives...

...than innocents are killed by legal toters. Legal carry is a net plus for our society.

[bongbong]

49. Proven?

The only thing you've proven is that you know nothing about logic or statistics.

[GreenStormCloud]

65. I will repost it here. It is very straightforward.

All statistics are compiled by the Texas Department of Public Safety.

In Texas, as the end of 2009 there were 402,914 people with Concealed Handgun Licenses. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1172&pid=39789

In 2009 there was exactly one (1) person who held a CHL whom was convicted of any form of murder and none convicted on any form of manslaughter. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2009.pdf

From the 2009 TXDPS crime report:http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/crimereports/09/citCh3.pdf page 3

Justifiable Homicide
Statistics on murder circumstances, victims, and
victim/offender relationships on the next page
include justifiable homicides. Justifiable homicide
is the killing of a felon by a peace officer in the
line of duty or the killing (during the commission
of a felony) of a felon by a private citizen. In
2009, there were 106 justifiable homicides, of
which, 52 were felons killed by private citizens,
and 54 were felons killed by police.

Fifty-two people defended their lives by using guns and killed a felon. Certainly there were many more who used a gun to defend themselves but didn't have to shoot the felon. The number of those is not known, but out of 400K people who were armed that had to have been many.

The many innocent lives saved are certainly more than the one innocent life lost. Therefore CHLs save more lives than are lost.

[elleng]

7. Doubt it.

[RLEmerysgt]

32. Lets do a comparison, here are four websites..

..that self defense incidents are collated. Since these are police and media posted incidents, any claim of bias is insane.

Funny how review of these actual incidents avg. 80 per month.

http://kc3.com/self_defense/Self_Defense.htm
http://thearmedcitizen.com/wp/category/armed
http://gunowners.org/self-defense-corner.htm
http://keepandbeararms.com/

Now consider that the US Government recognizes that 70% of violent crimes committed each year are not reported.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv08.pdf

Now if one actually reviews more government data and police firearm discharge reports, one see's that on average, only 15% of the time that a firearm is used in any situation illegally or in self defense, only 15% of the time are shots fired. Funny how police firearm discharge reports only show an average of 15% of the shots actually hit their target (you can prove criminals ar ebetter shots than police, lol, uh yeah right) and you can prove all shots kill or are reported eh, geez, good luck with those facts you cant refute.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=940.

www.popcenter.org/problems/drive_by_shooting/PDFs/Block_and_Block_1993.pdf, www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/public_information/2007_firearms_discharge_report.pdf, www.nyclu.org/files/nypd_firearms_report_102207.pdf

So you have better government studies, data, and other hard facts to prove that bad things by cpl licensee's occur more frequently than good things?

Cato Policy Analysis No. 284 (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1143&full=1) by Jeff Snyder states the 800k cops are 11 times more likely to shoot the wrong person than a "civilian.&quot civilian = 80 mil law abiding gun owners and over 8 mil cpl licensee's)*

"In fact, gun owners mistakenly kill about 30 innocent persons a year, one-eleventh of the number killed by police."

If public safety and eliminating these deaths are your main goal, then you should disarm the cops and arm the population!

Here are some more non NRA generated data comparing someone the public generally considers safe, say a doctorversus cpl licensee's.

BATF Max 8 million CPL's US, approximately 186 million age 21 or older or 4.3% of the people licensed for CPL.

Possible deaths from CPL holders in 3 year time span from Violence Policy Center report last year, 137 or 45 per year equals .00000562 per concealed license holder. You can also review Florida's data on CCW at http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html it says the same thing.

JAMA http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/286/4/415 700,000 doctors in US kill 44,000 to 98,000 by medical malpractice every year or .065 to.14 per physician.

Physician is .065 or .14 /.00000562 = 12,000 to 25,000 times more likely to harm you than a CPL holder.

So where is the risk from concealed carry holders and why aren't you antis crying to ban doctors?

[bongbong]

50. LOL!

> Since these are police and media posted incidents, any claim of bias is insane.

OK, since this is a false statement, the rest of your NRA-recycled cut-n-paste is garbage.

Another gun-religionist shot down!

[InanimateObject]

52. So you can prove NOT ONE SINGLE ONE OF THOSE..

... incidents did not occur, LOL, keep drinking the koolaide my friend, keep drinking that koolaide, LOL!

Oh wait, whats this..

• Homeowner Shoots Intruder in the Chest (WV)

http://www.wvnstv.com/story/18377439/homeowner-shoots-intruder-in-the-chest

Posted: May 14, 2012 2:04 PM CDT
Updated: May 21, 2012 2:04 PM CDT
By Lauren Weppler, Anchor - email

A Raleigh County shooting is under investigation after a homeowner allegedly takes the law into their own hands.

At 6 a.m. Monday morning Raleigh County Sheriff's Captain Mitch Barley said a male in his early 20's attempted to break into a home on Haley Hill Drive in Fairdale.

Captain Barley said when the homeowner opened the door the intruder attempted to hit the person with a club and then the homeowner shot the intruder in the chest.

The alleged intruder is currently receiving treatment at Raleigh General Hospital.

Barley said he believes he will recover.

No names have been released at this time.

The case is currently under investigation and no charges have been filed.

Hey heres another randomly chosen from that list.

• Tobacco Shop Owner Fights Off 3 Men Who Assaulted Him With A Knife (PA)

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/bethlehem/index.ssf/2012/05/cigars_international_manager_h.html

Hey here is another randomly chosen from that list.

• Man in His 70's Shoots 1 of 2 Early Morning Home Invaders (CA)

http://www.modbee.com/2012/05/01/2181468/modesto-homeowner-shoots-intruder.html

Yeah, still looking to see where the NRA is in charge of any of those media outlets, much less the police departments these crimes were reported to, LOL, LOL, the antis are gonna make me pee my pants laughing so hard every single time an anti gun extremist claim bias for collating or posting inconvenient facts. Which anti's scream then at the top of their lungs "the sky is falling, the sky is falling, yet even in reality just like in the fairy tale, no one believed chicken little.

So endeth this part of the lesson, unless you want ALL of these incidents posted and then your claim is completely denounced, will the anti's promise never to tell such a fib again?

[bongbong]

54. Propaganda

N$A cut-n-paste lies & propaganda is always hilarious. But what is sad is how deluded gun-religionists take it seriously.

[Glaug-Eldare]

57. Really?

This is...sort of a socialist-themed website, isn't it? I thought that was more or less in the Terms of Service.

[bongbong]

59. exposed

> an do as per the socialist activist Saul Alinskies directives is to deny, deny, deny,

Don't you belong over at www.repigs_are_scum_who_hate_America_and_Democracy.com?

[RLEmerysgt]

36. Here is a list, oldest dated around 3/15/12...

... just from one of those websites, Keep & Bear Arms.

Your turn, lets see your list!

Dont forget to acknowledge all those non reported incidents where nothing was reported/ no shots fired as unfortuneately for you, they do occur!


• Fayetteville homeowner shoots suspected burglar (NC)
• St. George man arrested on marijuana charge after shooting intruder with AK-47 rifle (UT)
• Man fires on suspected burglars in Warner Robins (GA)
• Homeowner Shoots Intruder in the Chest (WV)
• No charges for St. Louis man who shot, killed intruder (MO)
• Homeowner Shoots 1 of 3 Daytime Home Invaders (TX)
• Homeowner Shoots Late Night Car Burglar (SC)
• Homeowner shoots intruder: "It came down to either me or him" (WA)
• Cops: Husband who kicked in house door shot by wife's boyfriend (IL)
• 2 men killed in Yuma, Ariz., shooting; police say shooter acted in self defense (AZ)
• Oakland robbery suspect, victim exchange gunshots on Forbes Avenue (PA)
• Defensive Gun Use of the Day: Man of the Cloth Edition (TX)
• Man, 84, shoots home invasion suspect with Korean War gun (PA)
• Tobacco Shop Owner Fights Off 3 Men Who Assaulted Him With A Knife (PA)
• Woman Shoots Estranged Boyfriend Who Broke Into Her Home (NM)
• Police: Detroit homeowner shoots and kills intruder, accidentally shoots wife (MI)
• Woman beaten with handgun, uses box cutter in self-defense (TN)
• Store Clerk Shoots Armed Robber (MD)
• Walla Walla, WA Store Owner Shoots, Kills Late Night Intruder (WA)
• 3 Suspects arrested in Nuuanu Shooting (HI)
• Portage police: Woman with gun held man who broke into her apartment (IN)
• Homeowner Shot Armed Burglar In The Middle Of The Night (MO)
• Woman Shoots Abusive Estranged Husband Who Assaulted Their Daughter (NC)
• 14 Year Old Trap Shooter Scares Off Two Armed Home Invaders With Shotgun (AR)
• 62 Year Old FL Man Opens Fire With .22 Rifle On Two Shed Thieves (FL)
• Cops: Robber shot after grabbing necklace of shop owner's granddaughter, 4 (IL)
• 13-year-old suspect killed during robbery (AL)
• Police investigate home invasion, burglary in Lemay area (MO)
• Man in His 70's Shoots 1 of 2 Early Morning Home Invaders (CA)
• Two men injured after altercation including a gun and a knife (TX)
• Another Ohio homeowner exercises self-defense right by shooting would-be robber during home invasion (OH)
• Store Clerk Shoots at 3 Would Be Robbers (PA)
• Man buys knife, stabs 2 at Salt Lake City store (video available) (UT)
• Police: Homeowner shoots intruder (KY)
• Homeowner Shoots Prowler With WWII Rifle
• Defensive Gun Use of the Day: Always Packin’ Edition (GA)
• Off-duty sheriff's officer scares off, shoots at burglar (IL)
• Resident Shoots and Kills Armed Home Invader (TN)
• Victim of attempted robbery shoots, kills suspect in Detroit, police say (MI)
• Resident Shoots and Kills 2 Home Invaders (NC)
• No charges filed in Ringgold shooting (AL)
• Homeowner Shoots Machete Wielding Home Invader (TN)
• Bakersfield police: Robber shot, killed in self-defense (CA)
• Store Clerk Shoots Knife Wielding Robber (NC)
• Police: Santa Barbara homeowner shoots intruder, suspect in custody (CA)
• Renton homeowner fires shots at burglar, suspect at large (WA)
• Chief Monroe: home-invasion shooting “clearly a case of self-defense” (NC)
• Homeowner Shoots Suspected Burglar as His Family Sleeps Nearby (OH)
• Dallas, TX Homeowner Shoots 1 of 3 Teens Kicking In His Door In Broad Daylight (TX)
• Detroit, MI Woman Shoots and Kills Armed Teenage Home Invader (MI)
• Vidor shooting possible self-defense (TX)
• Two Intruders Break In, Woman Finds Gun, Kills One (MO)
• Redford woman claims self-defense in shooting (MI)
• Sheriff: Leesburg man may have killed guest in self-defense (FL)
• Officials: Shooter may have acted in self defense (MS)
• NY Convenience Store Owner Chases Off Armed Robber With Pistol (NY)
• Two Separate Instances Of Homeowners Using Guns For Self Defense in Pierce County, WA Last Night (WA)
• Retired Police Officer in WA Shoots and Kills 1 of Multiple Daytime Burglars (WA)
• Female Store Clerk in FL With Carry Permit Shoots and Kills Armed Robber (FL)
• Homeowner Shoots Late Night Home Intruder In The Hip (IN)
• Couple Shoot and Kill Crazed Man Who Confronted Them in Their Bedroom (WA)
• Elderly MO Couple Shoot, Kill Home Invader Who Violently Attacked Them (MO)
• Slaying may have been self defense: 'This was over a girl' (IL)
• Detroit senior kills break-in suspect: 'As long as I can fight back, I will' (MI)
• Michigan Homeowner Fires Shotgun at Would be Thief (MI)
• Neighbors: Drop charges against man, 80, in shooting of burglar (IL)
• BSO: Man shot dead in Pompano Beach appears to be case of self-defense (FL)
• Conceal Carry Permit Holder Stops Shooter at Church (SC)
• Shooting of spouse deemed self-defense (MA)
• Store owner shoots teen in self-defense, killing him (FL)
• Retired cop turned security guard shoots and kills armed robber (MI)
• Pawn Shop Customer With License to Carry Chases Off Would Be Robber (TX)
• Elderly NE Homeowner Fires a Warning Shot at Home Invader Who Is Then Captured By Police (NE)
• Homeowner Shoots At, Scares Off 3 Burglars (MI)
• Las Vegas, NV Homeowner Shoots and Kills Burglary Suspect (NV)

[Hoyt]

43. Thanks for the list -- does that come from NRA, Free Republic, Storm Front, TBaggers or some other

friggin right wing gun site frequented by the likes of Zimmerman.

[InanimateObject]

44. Yeah, funny how all of those incidents are..

...from media and police incident reports, not created by any NRA or right wing fantasy you have.

Then again you have proof the NRA is in charge of the BATF, and all police and media sources eh, LOL!

Keep drinking the koolaide my friend!

[Hoyt]

66. Gone already. I doubt you compiled list, hence right wingers suspected.

[Starboard Tack]

67. "Allowing people to arm themselves results in a decrease in violent crime."

No proof either way on that one. Violent crime has decreased pretty much across the board in recent years, but there is no clear correlation with relaxed carry laws. Even if there were a correlation, it would beg the question "Is that how we, as a society, want to solve the problem of violent crime?" Not very progressive IMO. Rather short sighted solution, using the principle tools of violence to reduce violence.

[ileus]

18. Wishing our Michigan friends best of luck...true progressives

working to expand the rights and safety of individuals and society.

[safeinOhio]

20. True progressives, if

you think taking away the right to elect city governments is right up there too.

[gejohnston]

22. different groups of people

Do you see the Kochs and other corporatists and their "gentleman's gentlemen" holding their guns for them?

[RLEmerysgt]

35. That should say....

... reinstatement of rights, because 99% of all those laws and crap restricting the 2A right were created in the last 5 decades, almost 8 decades if you include the 1934 Gun Control Act.