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Fri Apr 27, 2012, 09:59 AM

Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store

SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith's store.

Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith's employee Dorothy Espinoza says, "He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people."

Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. "There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms."

Then, before the suspect could find another victim - a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. "A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith's grabbed him."

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx

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Reply Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store (Original post)
Marengo Apr 2012 OP
bowens43 Apr 2012 #1
slackmaster Apr 2012 #2
saras Apr 2012 #5
Atypical Liberal Apr 2012 #6
Hoyt Apr 2012 #11
rl6214 Apr 2012 #13
shadowrider Apr 2012 #26
rl6214 Apr 2012 #72
shadowrider Apr 2012 #106
rl6214 Apr 2012 #120
TPaine7 Apr 2012 #16
beevul Apr 2012 #19
discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #20
Hoyt Apr 2012 #25
Clames Apr 2012 #31
Hoyt Apr 2012 #34
Clames Apr 2012 #38
Hoyt Apr 2012 #41
ManiacJoe Apr 2012 #44
TPaine7 Apr 2012 #32
Marengo Apr 2012 #37
Hoyt Apr 2012 #42
Marengo Apr 2012 #48
gejohnston Apr 2012 #51
Hoyt Apr 2012 #52
beevul Apr 2012 #112
rl6214 Apr 2012 #73
beevul Apr 2012 #109
shadowrider Apr 2012 #110
Hoyt Apr 2012 #113
shadowrider Apr 2012 #115
Hoyt Apr 2012 #117
Hoyt Apr 2012 #111
beevul Apr 2012 #114
Taitertots Apr 2012 #39
Hoyt Apr 2012 #43
Taitertots Apr 2012 #45
Hoyt Apr 2012 #46
Taitertots Apr 2012 #53
Hoyt Apr 2012 #55
Taitertots Apr 2012 #63
rl6214 Apr 2012 #74
Hoyt Apr 2012 #79
rl6214 Apr 2012 #119
Hoyt Apr 2012 #121
gejohnston Apr 2012 #122
Hoyt Apr 2012 #127
TPaine7 Apr 2012 #132
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #129
Hoyt Apr 2012 #130
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #147
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #153
Marengo Apr 2012 #49
spin Apr 2012 #94
oneshooter Apr 2012 #157
HALO141 May 2012 #158
Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #84
gejohnston Apr 2012 #89
Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #92
gejohnston Apr 2012 #95
Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #100
rl6214 Apr 2012 #133
Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #140
Meiko Apr 2012 #139
Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #141
gejohnston Apr 2012 #142
Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #145
HALO141 May 2012 #159
Starboard Tack May 2012 #160
HALO141 May 2012 #161
Starboard Tack May 2012 #162
gejohnston May 2012 #164
discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #9
Atypical Liberal Apr 2012 #7
ileus Apr 2012 #3
TPaine7 Apr 2012 #4
sylvi Apr 2012 #15
TPaine7 Apr 2012 #17
Alphados Apr 2012 #90
Hoyt Apr 2012 #93
Hoyt Apr 2012 #8
discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #10
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #28
TPaine7 Apr 2012 #30
discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #36
Hoyt Apr 2012 #50
TPaine7 Apr 2012 #108
discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #35
spin Apr 2012 #14
Meiko Apr 2012 #22
shadowrider Apr 2012 #27
Hoyt Apr 2012 #29
Clames Apr 2012 #33
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #58
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #57
Hoyt Apr 2012 #60
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #124
rl6214 Apr 2012 #76
Hoyt Apr 2012 #77
rl6214 Apr 2012 #118
Taitertots Apr 2012 #40
Hoyt Apr 2012 #61
Taitertots Apr 2012 #64
Hoyt Apr 2012 #65
Taitertots Apr 2012 #66
Hoyt Apr 2012 #67
Taitertots Apr 2012 #68
Hoyt Apr 2012 #70
Taitertots Apr 2012 #75
Hoyt Apr 2012 #78
Taitertots Apr 2012 #80
Hoyt Apr 2012 #81
Taitertots Apr 2012 #82
Hoyt Apr 2012 #83
gejohnston Apr 2012 #86
Taitertots Apr 2012 #87
Hoyt Apr 2012 #96
Taitertots Apr 2012 #99
Hoyt Apr 2012 #102
Taitertots Apr 2012 #103
Hoyt Apr 2012 #104
Taitertots Apr 2012 #105
rl6214 Apr 2012 #134
shadowrider Apr 2012 #107
gejohnston Apr 2012 #69
Hoyt Apr 2012 #71
gejohnston Apr 2012 #85
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #125
Hoyt Apr 2012 #126
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #128
Hoyt Apr 2012 #131
rl6214 Apr 2012 #136
Hoyt Apr 2012 #138
rl6214 Apr 2012 #156
shadowrider May 2012 #163
rl6214 May 2012 #165
gejohnston Apr 2012 #137
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #148
Hoyt Apr 2012 #149
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #152
rl6214 Apr 2012 #135
DonP Apr 2012 #144
Hoyt Apr 2012 #150
gejohnston Apr 2012 #151
Hoyt Apr 2012 #154
Union Scribe Apr 2012 #155
rl6214 Apr 2012 #12
TPaine7 Apr 2012 #18
cleanhippie Apr 2012 #21
TPaine7 Apr 2012 #24
Meiko Apr 2012 #23
sarisataka Apr 2012 #47
Hoyt Apr 2012 #54
sarisataka Apr 2012 #56
Hoyt Apr 2012 #59
Callisto32 Apr 2012 #62
spin Apr 2012 #91
Alphados Apr 2012 #88
DanTex Apr 2012 #97
Marengo Apr 2012 #98
ManiacJoe Apr 2012 #101
friendly_iconoclast Apr 2012 #143
Simo 1939_1940 Apr 2012 #116
Straw Man Apr 2012 #123
Clames Apr 2012 #146

Response to Marengo (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 10:11 AM

1. Child brings loaded gun to Daisy Bates Elementary


LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) - Authorities in Little Rock say a second-grader at Daisy Bates Elementary School is recommended for expulsion after bringing a cocked and loaded pistol to school to show a friend.

The Pulaski County Sheriff's Department said Thursday that the 8-year-old boy had the gun in his backpack and showed it to a friend, who alerted a teacher.

The boy, who is not being named because of his age, told a sheriff's deputy he had hoped to play cowboys and Indians with the .22-caliber revolver.

http://www.todaysthv.com/news/article/209087/2/Child-brings-loaded-gun-to-school

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Response to bowens43 (Reply #1)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 10:16 AM

2. Bowens43, your reply appears to be extemporaneous

 

Please explain how you believe it to be relevant to the original post.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 11:14 AM

5. The relevance is obvious to most of us. Anecdotes selected for emotional impact don't MEAN anything

 

...let alone PROVE anything. They're "just so stories".

Well, the second would only qualify if the student had actually shot someone.

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Response to saras (Reply #5)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 11:32 AM

6. Actually, that is not true. All it takes is one fact to disprove a theory.

 

The original article shows the fatal flaw in the anti-gun mentality.

If people don't have guns to defend themselves with, stories like this would never happen.

Instead, ever victim of violent crimes like this one would be at the mercy of their attacker, just as these victims were, unless you happen to find someone capable of physically overpowering the attacker.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 03:52 PM

11. Thankfully the crazy wasn't carrying one of the guns the gun culture loves.


There would be a lot of dead bodies lying around.

I don't think people were at the mercy of this guy. A couple of cans of beans to head would have stopped him. If you want to have an even better chance, ram a staff into his face and see how quickly he drops his knife.

But, I'm sure your answer is more guns, more people toting, more Zimmermans to protect us . . . . . . . .

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #11)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 04:16 PM

13. Of course you would have disarmed him with some pork and beans then

 

field stripped the knife and thrown it into the bushes, right?

What a joke, you can now add beans, an imaginary staff and of course zimmerman to the hoyt shtick

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 06:09 PM

26. Never, ever, bring a knife to a gunfight.

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #26)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:20 AM

72. Or a staff or can of pork and beans

 

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #72)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 04:37 PM

106. Vienna sausages would be better. Smaller can, more reload.

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #106)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:32 PM

120. good thing I wasn't drinking anything when I clicked on your post

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #11)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 04:56 PM

16. How many people carry staffs?

 

And how many do you think there were at this scene? I would guess none.

But since you don't want "more Zimmermans protecting us" you would have preferred to die if the attacker caught you without your trusty can of beans, right?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #11)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 05:04 PM

19. "Ram a staff into his face"...LOL

Yes, they have these over in the "magic items" aisle, which is just two aisles over from the canned beans...



Or did you mean these...just two aisles farther in the "martial arts and housewares" aisle?




"But, I'm sure your answer is more guns, more people toting, more Zimmermans to protect us . . . "

Uh huh. And your answer is "I'm alreight jack, i'm standing in the canned bean aisle".

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Response to beevul (Reply #19)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 05:15 PM

20. point!

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Response to beevul (Reply #19)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 05:59 PM

25. Better than carrying a silly gun.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #25)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 06:37 PM

31. You must really believe...

 

...you are some sort of ninja with how you carry on....

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Response to Clames (Reply #31)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 06:45 PM

34. And you must believe you are powerless, and threats to you are more

than a very remote possibility.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #34)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 07:57 PM

38. Powerless?

 

That term applies to those like you who don't believe in armed self defense. But I am very mindful of threats as they exist in the real world and not in the one conjured in your mind.

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Response to Clames (Reply #38)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 08:15 PM

41. Bull, probably could have yelled "stop I have a gun" and stopped the whole thing.

But instead the gun culture believes they need to go out and buy more and more guns and carry them more and more places to be safe.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #41)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 08:46 PM

44. Sometimes bluffing works, sometimes it does not.

The "does not work" times tend to suck for those poor souls stupid enough to try it.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #25)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 06:38 PM

32. Agreed. All CCW guns should be serious. n/t

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #25)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 07:48 PM

37. A "silly gun" stopped this attacker, not a staff or a can of beans

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Response to Marengo (Reply #37)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 08:16 PM

42. A pretty girl probably would have stopped him too. Live in fear if you like.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #42)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:21 AM

48. You are suggesting a "pretty girl" would have been as effective as the firearm...

in subduing this attacker? Please do explain how.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #42)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:34 AM

51. and if the robber was gay

or asexual?

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #51)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:36 AM

52. Well, you'd have to improvise.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #42)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 05:23 PM

112. "A pretty girl probably would have stopped him too." How disgusting of you.

Oh yeah, i'm sure allowing this little scene to play out, would have been a positive thing for the uh "pretty girl" in question:

Man uses concealed weapon to stop stabbing spree, police say he likely saved lives

Police say Ly, who is 33-years-old, bought the knife at the store then stabbed two men in the parking lot and tried to stab others. Police say Ly did not know his victims.

ABC 4 wants to know who he is so we went looking for answers and what we uncovered was a lengthy criminal record spanning 12 years.

His crimes began simple, but slowly escalated to dangerous levels.

His crimes include:
Theft, January 2012
Sexual Battery and Lewdness, October 2011
Attempted Assault against Police Officer, September 2011
Attempted Aggravated Assault, March 2011
Poss of Drug Paraphernalia & Attempted Poss or use of controlled substance, April 2009
False info to Police Officer, Drive on Suspended License, July 2004
Criminal Trespass, August 2000.

http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/Man-uses-concealed-weapon-to-stop-stabbing-spree/zdZzsT6hNk2Q9tJtkKq3VA.cspx


If the concealed permit holder were a racist zimmerman wannabe like you try to pain them all, he'd have just shot the knife wielding monority would he not?

That he didn't...has got to be a hard lump for you to swalllow.


On, and as to your moronic "pretty girl" comment...Did you notice the "sexual battery and lewdness" in october of 2011?

At long as he doesn't "use a silly gun".

Well, hey, just sacrifice her - your hypothetical pretty girl - on the altar of anti-gun/gun hateing ideology.



Sometimes , hoyt, the things you spew are just too filthy for words to describe, even if you don't know it when you spew them.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #25)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:24 AM

73. Back in the day if there was a dual

 

You would step off your 25 paces and then throw you staff of beans at your opponenet, right?

Silly gun?


Silly wabbit

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #25)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 04:55 PM

109. Why don't you trudge on over to the grocery store in question...

Why don't you trudge on over to the grocery store in question, and ask people there - You know, the ones that were present during the stabbings, rather than the ones playing momday morning tough guy on the internet - if they wish that the person who put an end to the stabbings hadn't had a gun.


Oh, thats right, what THEY think doesnt matter...only what YOU think matters...







On edit:



"officers had high praise for the gun carrying man, who ended the hysteria. (unnamed officer in the video) "This was a really volatile situation that could have gotten even worse, I mean, we can only assume that judging from what we saw it could have gotten alot worse so He (the good samaritan) was definitely in the right place at the right time."

"Dozens of other shoppers, who too could have become victims, are also thankful for the gun carrying man. And many, like Danylle Julian, are still in shock from the experience. "Scary actually. Really scary. Five minutes before I walk out to my car. It could have been me."


Guess you needn't ask them now, eh?

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Response to beevul (Reply #109)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 05:16 PM

110. Then they interviewed someone named Hoyt who said

"I wasn't worried. I had cans of beans in my hands and a staff by my side".

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #110)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 05:24 PM

113. You too, ask victims if they are glad perp didn't have guns like you.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #113)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 06:03 PM

115. To whom are you referring as the perp? The guy with the knife or the guy with the gun?

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #115)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:05 PM

117. The guy with a knife- who luckily didn't have a gun or victims would be dead (maybe the hero too).

Those who carry guns, should be able to identify perpetrators.

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Response to beevul (Reply #109)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 05:23 PM

111. Why don't you ask them if they are glad the perp didn't have guns like those you covet?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #111)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 05:27 PM

114. What guns do I covet, hoyt?

If you got something to say, spit the mealies of of your mouth and say it.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #11)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 08:03 PM

39. Your post wins Mall Ninja response of the year

Maniac with a knife, just throw some beans at him.

May you continue to be lucky enough to never have to actually deal with a knife wielding maniac trying to kill you.

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #39)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 08:22 PM

43. Actually I worked in a store once where a woman -- who slipped out of a psych unit pulled a butcher

Last edited Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:18 AM - Edit history (1)

knife from under her robe. We didn't shoot her. We simply moved back a bit and forced her out the door. The police found her urinating in the middle of a major highway. I quipped to some shoppers that I had my pea shooter -- from the 6 year old's toy rack -- if she didn't leave.

I've also had guns pulled on me. But, even that hasn't swayed me to become a wuss with a gun in my pocket like Zimmerman. There are very few situations where a gun is going to do you guys any good, except that it gives you the courage to walk out the door.

I'm going out tonight in the big city, to some funky places -- I'll wave when I return safely.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #43)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 08:47 PM

45. Exactly, you have NEVER faced off with someone trying to kill you

I hope you continue to be as lucky as you have been. Do you have any stories where someone actually tried to kill or stab you? So far your big claim to fame is doing nothing about someone who did nothing to you.

Also, I don't carry a gun.

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #45)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 11:49 PM

46. And what situation have you faced where a gun would have made a difference.

I'm not talking about a Zimmerman type situation that was his fault - if he did not have a gun the worthless POS would never have stepped foot out of his car.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #46)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:36 AM

53. I've never faced off with a knife wielding maniac. If I did, a gun would make a difference

In what situation would a staff and beans be preferable to a gun when facing a murderous maniac?

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #53)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:44 AM

55. That "murderous maniac" crud is your problem.

Do you actually grab a gun or two before venturing out because you fear a "murderous maniac? "

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #55)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:26 AM

63. I don't carry, but I'm not going to pretend they are not effective self-defense weapons

They are certainly effective against knife wielding maniacs.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #43)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:27 AM

74. Uh, sure you have...

 

You've got a "actually I did" story for every senario out there.

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #74)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:46 AM

79. Well, I've been through a lot -- yet I still can go outside without a gun or imagining all kinds of

threats.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #79)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:31 PM

119. Nah, you just pack your can of pork and beans and your walking stick

 

just like David Carradine in Kung Fu

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #119)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 11:33 PM

121. Not a walking stick, a staff. Big difference.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #121)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 11:37 PM

122. maybe you can get a US chapter going

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #122)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 12:34 AM

127. That is playing - I'm not talking sparring.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #127)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:39 AM

132. You need a special vehicle just to transport that to the mall.

 

It not very practical as a self-defense weapon.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #79)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:06 AM

129. Reading your posts, we've all been through a lot. nt

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #129)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:31 AM

130. Pledge to leave your guns at home, and l'm gone.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #130)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 06:42 PM

147. I don't own a gun and I pledge not to carry any

Goodbye.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #147)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 11:49 PM

153. Ahem!

Are you not a man of your word, Hoyt?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #11)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:27 AM

49. As a gun DID stop this attack, it seems "toting" was certainly the answer in this situation.

But, please do continue to amuse us with your remarkable imagination.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #11)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 01:20 PM

94. I've only seen actors in movies carrying staffs in public ...



They are sold on Amazon.com.

Do you carry one? Perhaps you always carry a couple of cans of beans in your pockets?

Those who were unfortunate enough to end up in the hospital from this man's attack would probably take issue with your statement, "I don't think people were at the mercy of this guy."

The fact remains that hitting the guy in the head with cans of beans or ramming a staff into his face would have been more violent than pointing a firearms at him was.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #11)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 08:47 PM

157. And you go to the store with a staff? Do you open carry, or conceal it?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #11)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:39 PM

158. OK, Gandalf.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #6)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:08 PM

84. A taser would have worked just as well in this case.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #84)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:42 PM

89. don't you need a CCW for a Taser?

I don't know Utah law. Florida only requires one for a pistol. I do know Wyoming (did) require a CCW for slingshots, knives and sword canes. Remember, it was written in the 1880s.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #89)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 01:07 PM

92. No idea, but they are perfect for such situations.

Sword canes are good too.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #92)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 01:20 PM

95. they were under the same strict

"may issue" for some occupations and no issue to most Wyomingites as pistols from 1887-1995. Wyoming became shall issue in 1995. California CCWs are not valid in Wyoming, so don't take your sword cane there.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #95)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 03:22 PM

100. LOL. Doubt if I'll be taking any weapons anywhere.

Any weapons I'm ever likely to use against a person can be found in a dictionary.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #92)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:41 AM

133. Sword canes are concealed weapons in many juristitions and require a CCL

 

if they are allowed at all.

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #133)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 12:20 PM

140. I know. Isn't it amazing?

Pepper spray too in many places. Gotta keep things as lethal as possible.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #84)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 05:37 AM

139. If he had one

 

but it seems a gun was the tool at hand.

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Response to Meiko (Reply #139)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 12:21 PM

141. Yeah, I know. Makes one wonder doesn't it?

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #141)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:00 PM

142. according to some of the older

anti gun propaganda, the bad guy will just be more violent and take the gun away from you (seriously) why wouldn't the same be true of sword canes?

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #142)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 04:07 PM

145. Sorry. I wasn't being serious about sword canes.

I'm not really big on weapons in the real world, though I often enjoy reading about them. As a kid, I always thought sword canes were cool. Same with derringers. Loved all that sleight of hand stuff.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #84)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:42 PM

159. Tasers are good tools

and they have their place in the force continuum but they don't always work and I would feel less than comfortable about that being my only defensive tool.

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Response to HALO141 (Reply #159)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:51 PM

160. Is there some reason you feel so vulnerable?

I cannot imagine choosing to live in an environment where either a gun or a taser would enhance my feeling of safety.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #160)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:17 PM

161. Personal experience.

No matter where you live there are predators and dangerous circumstances can develop. The difference in relative safety from one place to another is one of probability. Your perception of danger or safety is your own and I have no interest in debating the validity of that perception. Neither are the limits of your imagine my concern.

I am responsible for my own safety that that of my loved ones. I will take whatever action I believe reasonable to manage the risks in my environment, wherever that happens to be.

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Response to HALO141 (Reply #161)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:00 PM

162. Wow!

No matter where you live there are predators and dangerous circumstances can develop.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #162)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:15 PM

164. why?

They are there and circumstances can and do develop. He did not say they happen often or are everywhere, just acknowledging that they exist. Acknowledging that possible danger exists is not the same as being afraid or paranoid. There might be a few places in the world where they don't.
I wonder what Palau's immigration laws are like?

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Response to saras (Reply #5)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 03:24 PM

9. They do mean...

...more than an individual's biased "Feelings".

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 11:35 AM

7. It ignores the point and tries to negate it by showing bad people do bad things with guns

 

The OP shows what the consequences are for unarmed victims of violent crime, and how firearms can help.

All Bowes43's post does is show that bad people do bad things with guns, in an attempt to deflect attention away from the good things that they do.

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Response to Marengo (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 10:24 AM

3. nothing like a game of knife, paper, pistol.

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Response to Marengo (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 11:05 AM

4. Why didn't the knife wielder take the gun

 

and use it on the citizen?

And why doesn't the story tell us about the bystanders, especially the children, who were shot by this untrained, non-police or security citizen?

And no one knows what would have happened if the gun wielder hadn't shown up. The gentleman with the knife was probably just stopping or planning to stop when this vigilante showed up to ruin things.



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Response to TPaine7 (Reply #4)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 04:48 PM

15. And all the other Rude Toters

 

And why doesn't the story tell us about the bystanders, especially the children, who were shot by this untrained, non-police or security citizen?

And all the other Rude Toters, who naturally hauled out their own Glocks/AK-47s and started blasting away at the first guy, or each other, thinking they were the perps.



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Response to sylvi (Reply #15)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 04:58 PM

17. Exactly. I forgot about the circular firing squads that happen every time there is a public DGU.

 

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Response to TPaine7 (Reply #4)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:47 PM

90. Nice to see not all of us democrats are anti-gun nutjobs.

 

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Response to Alphados (Reply #90)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 01:18 PM

93. Welcome to DU I saw on another thread where you think Freepers have above average IQs.

You wouldn't know it by the high numbers that carry guns and are bigots.

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Response to Marengo (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 03:03 PM

8. Glad it ended with not too many hurt. Glad the crazy guy didn't have some of the guns popular here.

Of course, someone with a knife can be stopped without a gun.

I wonder how many here would have shot him?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 03:25 PM

10. "Of course, someone with a knife can be stopped without a gun."



You first.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #10)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 06:27 PM

28. I would chip in for the PPV of that. nt

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #28)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 06:33 PM

30. I started to say that I would pay to see Hoyt back up those words, but

 

changed my mind. I don't want to see Hoyt killed.

(I don't mean to imply that you do.)

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Response to TPaine7 (Reply #30)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 06:54 PM

36. I don't think...

...anyone wants to see anyone get killed.

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Response to TPaine7 (Reply #30)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:34 AM

50. I would not be killed. I might have to run away, and try something else.

But, I feel confident enough to not have to grab a gun along with my wallet when heading out.

Besides, guns are not the answer for society, and we all need to make some sacrifices. You just haven't recognized that yet.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #50)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 04:50 PM

108. Are you Usain Bolt? If so, I will concede that running away would certainly work.

 

(Unless your attacker was a distance runner determined to get you, of course.)

Enjoy your confidence and lack of need for a gun, Hoyt. Unfortunately, in this case you would probably have confidently used your can of beans, then confidently run away leaving the other innocent people to fend for themselves.

Some people carry a gun so that in the extreme, rare cases like these they don't have to choose between the lives of innocent victims and their own safety. (Or resort to canned beans, wizard's staffs, or sex appeal.)

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #28)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 06:52 PM

35. Not that...

...I haven't seen effective use of karate, krav maga, Rukopashnii Boi... but the effectiveness of many of these disciplines can be compromised by illness and disability more so than would be the use of a hand gun.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 04:43 PM

14. You say, "someone with a knife can be stopped without a gun" ...

Do you have experience at disarming an individual with a knife.

I know some techniques on how to disarm a person with a knife, but my instructor always pointed out that even if you are successful you will probably get cut and perhaps seriously cut. He always recommended that you didn't try to disarm a person with a knife unless there is no other choice.

Watch this video on a fairly small knife:

&feature=relmfu

But just for kicks and grins lets compare the damage from a .357 magnum with the damage that can be caused by a larger knife:



To answer your question, "I wonder how many here would have shot him?", I would guess that most of the pro gun people who have carry permits and post here would have given the individual with the knife a chance to surrender and also most people who don't post here but carry would have also offered him that opportunity. Since handguns are nowhere as lethal as most people imagine, that might have been a mistake as the person with the knife might have attacked the indivual with a gun and even after having been shot multiple times would have been able to inflict serious injury or death. Even though I realize that unlike in the movies a person doesn't always die immediately or stop his attack when shot, I would have given him a chance to surrender. Those who carry rarely wish to kill another person.

From reading your posts, I get the feeling that you believe that everyone who is licensed to carry is a person with a desire to be a hero or vigilante. If that was actually true, the statistics would show far more incidents involving shootings by those with licenses and at least one Zimmerman would make the headlines every week.

At least you did say that you were glad that the situation ended without any more people being injured.



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Response to Hoyt (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 05:29 PM

22. Of course they can

 

please feel free to do so anytime the opportunity presents itself.

Of course, someone with a knife can be stopped without a gun.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 06:14 PM

27. I bet you've never seen a pissed off Filipina with a butterfly knife

They can cut you open, cut out your heart and show it to you before you fall.

A knife in a trained hand is DEADLY.

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #27)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 06:31 PM

29. I've seen a few craziest with a knife in an ER and I've seen Zimmermans.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #29)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 06:39 PM

33. TV and movies don't count.

 

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Response to Clames (Reply #33)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 01:14 AM

58. Yeah, for real.

Walter Mitty's got nothing on him.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #29)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 01:11 AM

57. Nah.

You tell BS on the Internet.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #57)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 01:22 AM

60. I'm looking straight at your eyes when I say that. You just can't

imagine life without guns close by.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #60)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 12:20 AM

124. If you're looking in my eyes, get out of my yard.

And I apparently can imagine life without guns close by, since I don't currently own one. Which would mean you own more than I. Which would make you the gun nut in this exchange.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #29)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:31 AM

76. With quite an active imagination

 

You sound just the 17yo kid that is trying to get in with the cool crowd and makes up stories to impress the cool kids.

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #76)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:42 AM

77. Coming from someone who imagines all kinds of threats, boogiemen, etc. -- requiring a gun.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #77)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:29 PM

118. How can you say that? I have NEVER posted anything like that soooo

 

you are just making that up. You on the other hand post your fantasies on this website for EVERYONE to see, and comment on

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 08:07 PM

40. Famous last words

For your own sake, I hope you are not foolish enough to try to disarm a knife wielding maniac.

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #40)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 01:23 AM

61. I'm still here and don't have to dress around a gun.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #61)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:30 AM

64. When was the last time you disarmed a determined attacker w/ a knife?

Oh yeah we already discussed this. You have NEVER done it. May you continue to be lucky enough that you never face a determined attacker.

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #64)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:47 AM

65. When have you faced one? Never.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #65)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:50 AM

66. I'm also not the one claiming I could do it with a can of beans

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #66)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 09:01 AM

67. Since you supposedly don't carry, what are you going to do if you run into a "maniac?"

Here's a story of a woman who used a can of baked beans to defend herself -- if she can, why not the gun culture crowd? (About half way down. Don't know anything about Web site, otherwise.)

http://www.vincelewis.net/womensdefense.html

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #67)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 09:10 AM

68. "The best form of self defense is to point a gun at a potential attacker,"

Directly from YOUR source.

And the Beans story makes NO mention of a weapon.

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #68)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:16 AM

70. I saw that, and if one is a selfish right winger, it is probably true. I tend to take a broader

view of what is good for society and our country -- now and in the more distant future.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #70)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:29 AM

75. Lol, squirm all you want, guns are effective self-defense weapons

Why are you running from what we are discussing? I want you to explain why you think beans and a bow staff is superior to a gun for self-defense.

Oh yeah, I take the view that allowing innocent people to defend themselves with firearms is what is good for society. Why do you think dead innocent people is good for society?

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #75)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:44 AM

78. I did not say "superior" -- but clearly other options are better for society as a whole.

If Zimmerman were gunless, the worthless soul would have stayed in his car.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #78)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:51 AM

80. The "other options" are non-sense that only Mall ninjas buy into

The "other option" is being dead. I think innocent people having the most effective tools for self-defense is better for society.

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #80)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 11:17 AM

81. Sure, more Zimmermans and Loughners running around are exactly what we need.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #81)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 11:29 AM

82. I'm not naive enough to think that taking a gun out of a maniacs hands means they are not dangerous

Loughner without a gun is more likely to be the next McViegh, than the next MLK. Taking guns doesn't make it harder to kill people, it just makes it harder to defend yourself against the future Loughners.

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #82)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 11:39 AM

83. A little old lady took Loughner out. I'm heading out to practice throwing cans of beans.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #83)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:37 PM

86. she took him out after

his gun jammed. Not the same thing.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #83)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:40 PM

87. Right after she watched helplessly as he shot 19 people n/t

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #87)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 01:36 PM

96. Like you would have pulled out a gun and squeezed off a shot to take Loughner down

in a few split seconds. Heck, Gifford supposedly carries and a gun didn't do her a bit of good. You guys crack me up with your macho imaginations of saving the world with your guns. Fact is, old women took him down.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #96)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 03:10 PM

99. The fact is she was helpless while he shot 19 people, totally helpless

It is hilarious that you are about to talk about imagination. Your whole position is centered around your ability to defeated armed attackers with a can of beans. Talk about living in a macho fantasy world.

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #99)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 04:15 PM

102. Like I said, you would not have gotten a shot off -- but dream on. Who knows, someday you might be

a hero like police wannabe Zimmerman.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #102)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 04:19 PM

103. Someone with a gun has a chance, someone with beans watches as 19 innocent people get shot

Who knows someday you might get shot in the face while holding a can of beans. Or maybe you will just get lucky and watch helplessly as 6 people are murdered and 13 are injured.

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #103)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 04:24 PM

104. Well, there were packers around that day and the only one that got a shot off was Loughner.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #104)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 04:35 PM

105. "Around", but not in any way close enough to do anything about it

All the people close enough to do anything about it were unarmed. All the people who were shot were unarmed.

Yeah they were "around", i.e. in a different place completely from where the attack took place. But feel free to drag out disingenuous and intellectually dishonest arguments. The police were "around" too, just far enough away that they were unable to do anything to help.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #104)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:45 AM

134. Packers around where? Oh yeah, he was in the store well away from what was happening

 

and by the time he got outside, it was already over, just like when the police got there, it was already over.

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #75)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 04:43 PM

107. You won't get Hoyt to answer any question. I once asked him what color the sky is

just to see if he'd answer, yes or no was fine.

No answer.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #67)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 09:10 AM

69. interesting

whatever works. I'm guessing Vince isn't a member of Brady.
The best form of self defence is to point a gun at a potential attacker, but what if you are not armed or you visit or live in a country where guns and the carrying of knives for defensive measures are banned as in the UK and most of Europe.

I doubt a member of the NRA, unless NRA-UK.

Vinces Worthwhile Website
Register 1340
PO Box 15113
Birmingham B2 2NJ
United Kingdom

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #69)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 10:17 AM

71. If a can of beans works for a woman, it ought to work for you.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #71)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:33 PM

85. or just pop open a container of

Limburger cheese and pitch it at him.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #71)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 12:23 AM

125. Nice sexism, there.

Gee, if a mere woman can do it...

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #125)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 12:30 AM

126. She displayed more guts than most who carry like Zimmerman.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #126)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:05 AM

128. There are no Zimmermans here so you can cut it out

and stop your utterly classless attempt to turn a young man's death into your personal cudgel to wield against people on a fucking internet discussion board. The way you've cheapened Martin's killing into a watered down broadbrush insult to use against DUers is fucking appalling.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #128)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:35 AM

131. You would have said Zimmerman was a law-abiding toter, until he shot unarmed teen

There are still some who believe he is worthy of an NRA board appointment.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #131)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:50 AM

136. Who?

 

"There are still some who believe he is worthy of an NRA board appointment."

Who said that, you keep saying it so there must be something you can link it to orrrr

are you full of shit in this one also?

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #136)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 02:05 AM

138. Bull -- surely you've seen some posts here where right wingers said such things.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #138)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 07:20 PM

156. Point one out to me,,just one

 

You can't do it.

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #156)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:08 PM

163. He won't answer a yes or no question on what color the sky is

Don't expect one now.

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #163)

Tue May 1, 2012, 11:02 PM

165. Never do from that one, just smart alecky nonsense

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #131)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:54 AM

137. I have yet to see anyone thinking he is worthy of an NRA board appointment but

I do think he deserves a fair trial, void of media generated bullshit. Come to think of it, I think you would make a good replacement for Ted Nugent.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #131)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 06:43 PM

148. Until he shot an unarmed teen I didn't know him

so how the fuck would any of us have judged him one way or another? And given his history now that we do know him, why do you think I would have called him law-abiding.

Quit fucking making things up, Hoyt. You've lied at least three times about what I am or do or think in this thread alone.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #148)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 07:38 PM

149. Well, I guess you know the rest of the 14 Million or so toters who the gun culture claims are fine

citizens. Fact is, Zimmie was doing all the things you guys claim those with permits do -- he was a model citizen and all that BS.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #149)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 11:48 PM

152. You're pretty desperately grasping at straws now

"Zimmie was doing all the things you guys claim those with permits do"

WTF are you even talking about? I just got done telling you that with what is known about your guy there, that no he wasn't law-abiding. The fact that you are SO desperately trying to equate him with millions of people who are not and will never be murderers continues to be a low point in your already subterranean history at DU.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #128)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 01:49 AM

135. Every post from here on is going to have zimmerman in it

 

Hoyt has a limited space to be able to keep such thoughts and he will keep using it until another shtick pushes it from his concsiousness. Kinda like a dog with a bone, they will chew on it until they get absolutely everything out of it they can.

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #135)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 02:09 PM

144. I think he's obssessed with Zimmerman now

For some odd reason he's totally fixated on Zimmerman, mentioning him in almost every post. Doing his own DIY psychoanalysis of Zimmerman. Fantasizing about what Zimmerman might do in a grocery store. Seeing Zimmerman in other DU members on the board and in the street.

In a normal situation I'd say he might have the idea stuck in his head that somehow mentioning Zimmerman a lot is supposed to make gun owners feel too guilty to respond to the content of his posts, such as they are. But that's a far too complex concept to execute effectively.

Kind of spooky.

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Response to DonP (Reply #144)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 07:40 PM

150. Zimmerman is the poster boy for a law-abiding, good guy gun toter -- Gone bad.

Truthfully, he should never been allowed to own a gun.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #150)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 07:56 PM

151. what if a jury says you and convetional wisdom are wrong?

Zimmerman is the poster boy for a law-abiding, good guy gun toter -- Gone bad.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #151)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 11:59 PM

154. It's very possible a few bigoted gun lovers end up in jury pool.

Could be a lot of bigoted, gun lovers in jury pool.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #154)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:46 AM

155. Are you going to leave or not? I've taken your pledge.

Now you uphold your end and be "gone" from this forum.

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Response to Marengo (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 04:12 PM

12. But people NEVER use knives in mass assaults

 

and gun owners can NEVER get their firearm out in time to stop any attack and if they do it will just be taken away and used on them.

Sarcasm thingy just in case it's needed.

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Response to Marengo (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 05:03 PM

18. This is why we need not only gun control, but knife, fist and feet control as well.

 

Eventually we'll get to thought control.

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Response to TPaine7 (Reply #18)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 05:24 PM

21. Wait, you want to take away my "natural fighting ability" too!!! WTF?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #21)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 05:51 PM

24. Yes. I want to take away your independence of thought, too. Bad thoughts are the root of

 

the violence problem.

Thought control is the only way to rainbows and unicorns.

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Response to Marengo (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 05:33 PM

23. Why

 

if all gun owners are bloodthirsty nuts with no feelings or common sense did he just not shoot the perp. He would have been well within the law if he had chosen to do so.

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Response to Marengo (Original post)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:14 AM

47. Has anyone seen this covered

Outside of SLC news or pushed around the net on boards?

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #47)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:39 AM

54. I'm sure it's all the rage on Free Republic and Storm Front, along with Zimmerman.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #54)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 01:04 AM

56. I thought the NRA

Would have the clout to get it at least on Fox"fair and balanced coverage "

If someone walked out of a gun store and shot two random people do you think it would escape notice by the big networks?

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #56)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 01:19 AM

59. If that happened, even that pos Hannity would say, "dang this gun crap has gone too far. "

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #47)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 05:30 AM

62. no

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Response to Callisto32 (Reply #62)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 01:06 PM

91. Of course not. The media defends the First Amendment ...

and hates the Second.

Everyone knows that the pen is more powerful than the sword. Unfortunately many in the media often use their pen in an irresponsible manner. I suspect that true honesty in reporting is a subject often ignored in journalism classes.

Since it is hard to put a negative anti gun spin on a story like "Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store", the national media simply ignores it. It's hard to portray the man with the firearm as a blood thirsty vigilante that will help the media's agenda which states allowing honest citizens to carry firearms is a foolish idea.

Even the local media failed to mention if the shooter had a concealed carry permit. He is simply described as, "a citizen with a gun."





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Response to Marengo (Original post)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:41 PM

88. Proof that not all of us democrats are anti-gun nutjobs.

 

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Response to Marengo (Original post)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 02:21 PM

97. Nothing excites the pro-gunners like a good DGU story!

It's like watching gambling addicts hear about a guy who won the lottery...

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Response to DanTex (Reply #97)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 02:48 PM

98. And nothing seems to generate more absurdity from the anti CCW crew

Beans, staffs, and sword canes...you must be proud.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #98)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 03:38 PM

101. But those posts are entertaining from a Hollywood script point of view.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #97)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 06:16 PM

116. Nothing excites the pro-restrictionist like the rare GZ/TM story that


they can spin and exploit for all it's worth.

It's like watching..........well - never mind. Too sickening to recount.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #97)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 11:45 PM

123. Dan says, "When you can't be substantive, be insulting."

What would Hemenway say to the stabbing victims about the social cost/benefit ratio?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #97)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 04:48 PM

146. Yeah...nothing like a good DGU story...

 

...to completely crap on anti-gunner arguments and fears....

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