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Sun Apr 22, 2012, 04:51 PM

If the state is unable to prove their case against Zimmerman, and he's found Not Guilty

What will your reaction be?

Keep in mind, in court they'll be dealing in facts, not media reports.

My reaction if he's found Not Guilty? The state over-reacted to public opinion and over-reached on the charges.

Your turn.

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Reply If the state is unable to prove their case against Zimmerman, and he's found Not Guilty (Original post)
shadowrider Apr 2012 OP
DanTex Apr 2012 #1
shadowrider Apr 2012 #2
valerief Apr 2012 #3
DragonBorn Apr 2012 #41
Clames Apr 2012 #4
Webster Green Apr 2012 #5
elleng Apr 2012 #7
Bjorn Against Apr 2012 #9
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #15
elleng Apr 2012 #6
Live and Learn Apr 2012 #8
gejohnston Apr 2012 #13
izquierdista Apr 2012 #10
gejohnston Apr 2012 #14
ileus Apr 2012 #11
tularetom Apr 2012 #12
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #16
pipoman Apr 2012 #30
AH1Apache Apr 2012 #31
tularetom Apr 2012 #35
pipoman Apr 2012 #38
tularetom Apr 2012 #39
gejohnston Apr 2012 #40
upaloopa Apr 2012 #17
razorman Apr 2012 #18
OmahaBlueDog Apr 2012 #19
gejohnston Apr 2012 #20
OmahaBlueDog Apr 2012 #21
gejohnston Apr 2012 #22
OmahaBlueDog Apr 2012 #24
gejohnston Apr 2012 #25
OmahaBlueDog Apr 2012 #26
hack89 Apr 2012 #23
OmahaBlueDog Apr 2012 #27
discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #28
krispos42 Apr 2012 #29
jeepnstein Apr 2012 #32
gejohnston Apr 2012 #33
Glaug-Eldare Apr 2012 #34
OneTenthofOnePercent Apr 2012 #36
slackmaster Apr 2012 #37

Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 04:52 PM

1. My reaction would depend on the evidence that comes out during the trial.

What would your reaction be if he's found guilty?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 04:54 PM

2. As I've said countless times

If he's found guilty, he needs to pay, period.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 04:55 PM

3. I'll be so mad I'll never visit this DINO forum again. nt

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Response to valerief (Reply #3)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:27 PM

41. Umm. . .

because it would be our fault . . . ?

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 04:55 PM

4. My reaction...

 






...then I go about the rest of my day. This reaction applies to either verdict.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 04:56 PM

5. The police "investigation" was flawed.

Lack of evidence gathering by the cops.

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Response to Webster Green (Reply #5)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 05:00 PM

7. Yup.

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Response to Webster Green (Reply #5)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 05:06 PM

9. Absolutely, but I will go a step further...

It was not just flawed, it was ran by people who wanted to protect the murderer and are therefore themselves accesories to murder.

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Response to Webster Green (Reply #5)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 05:37 PM

15. It was just flawed but purposefully screwed to protect the spawn of former magistrate

who doubtlessly has contacts and made the right phone calls. That's what it will be about, Webster Green.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 04:59 PM

6. If he's found not guilty, imo,

it will be due to shoddy/negligent initial police work, and I'll be pissed.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 05:05 PM

8. Mine would be that the law is flawed

Last edited Sun Apr 22, 2012, 09:12 PM - Edit history (1)

and needs to be fixed. And the lawmakers should rectify their guilt in this murder with an apology and financial compensation to Trayvon's relatives.

Actually, it doesn't matter what the outcome of the trial is. The law is flawed and needs to be changed. There is no way anyone should be able to stalk you and/or pull a gun on you for walking down a street he/she doesn't think you belong on. This is no different than gang mentality.

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Response to Live and Learn (Reply #8)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 05:28 PM

13. the law does not allow that

and the State will have to prove that Zimmerman pulled the gun on him for walking down the street.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 05:08 PM

10. Well then there is round #2

 

Which is the federal case for depriving Treyvon of his civil rights.

And then there is round #3, which is the civil case by the Martin family.

After round #3, there will be little left of Zimmerman, only what can be swept into the gutter.

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Response to izquierdista (Reply #10)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 05:30 PM

14. If he wins on the self defense,

there is no round three on the state level. Depending how reality is different from conventional wisdom, round two could be a nonevent as well.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 05:11 PM

11. get up go to work come home play with the kids.

Oh and continue to carry my PSD daily.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 05:22 PM

12. Nah, that ain't the question

A better question is, if you were on the jury and all you knew was what you know now, would you vote to convict Zimmerman?

Personally, knowing what I know now, I could not do so. I suspect he is guilty as charged, but I haven't heard the case presented by the prosecutor, so I could not say that he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The burden of proof is on the state, as it is in any criminal case.

But I will say this. Regardless of the verdict in this case, Zimmerman's life is effectively over as of now. He seems a bit paranoid anyway, and he won't be able to go anywhere in public without believing someone is after him with intent to harm him, or worse. He will be suspicious of every black person he sees, and if his right to carry a firearm is restored, odds are he will be involved in another incident that will end badly for someone.

Sucks to be him. But he's the one who wanted to be a tough guy. He'll just have to man up and live with it I guess.

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Response to tularetom (Reply #12)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 05:41 PM

16. Amen, Tularetom!

No matter what happens, he'll never be able to live a normal life because of the decision HE MADE to shoot and boy in the chest...FOR NOTHING!

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Response to tularetom (Reply #12)

Mon Apr 23, 2012, 02:05 PM

30. So you think he is paranoid in light of the

"alive or dead" bounty put on him publicly by the Black Panthers? Would he really be wrong to be a bit "suspicious of every black person he sees"?

Do you think there should be a criminal charge resulting from the public threat (perhaps even incitement) on his life? What about if he is killed by someone motivated by the offer of a bounty?

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Response to pipoman (Reply #30)

Mon Apr 23, 2012, 02:10 PM

31. That can't be right

 

Hoyt says that's just "crud" put out by Rush Limbaugh.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #30)

Mon Apr 23, 2012, 06:49 PM

35. I wouldn't vote to convict him but that doesn't mean I feel sorry for him

The black panthers that put the "bounty" on him are a bunch of brain dead idiots who couldn't even come up with the money if somebody was stupid enough to take them up on their silly ass bounty. It ain't my problem if he's suspicious of every black person he sees, he's a tough guy, I'm sure he can handle it.

Life's a bitch. It wasn't fair to Martin and it isn't gonna be fair to Zimmerman either. It's time for him to be a man and deal with the consequences of what he did.

As far as criminal charges for the public threat on his life, sure, charge those assholes, knock yourself out. It won't change anything. If he is killed by someone motivated by the offer of a bounty, they can always claim they stood their ground and beat the rap.

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Response to tularetom (Reply #35)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 07:07 AM

38. I don't know if I feel sorry for him or not

we'll see when the case is made public. I was responding to your characterization of him being inexplicably "paranoid" and "suspicious". I believe these would be quite rational responses for someone in his position given the climate...in fact I think it would be irrational if he wasn't a bit fearful. It is interesting to see the level of fervor in these discussions against Zim yet very few admonitions of the threats on his life...almost a level of approval for vigilante (used correctly in this context) threats.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #38)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 07:32 AM

39. He made his bed

Of course he's paranoid. You or I would be too, in his position.

It's entirely possible that he may escape any legal sanctions for his action. That doesn't mean he will ever be free from all consequences, fair or not. He did what he did and maybe he should have thought about what he was doing before he did it.

Whatever happens to him can be traced back to the actions he took that night. If he really was in mortal danger, that's terribly unfair. If he really truly believed he was in mortal danger, it becomes a bit more murky but still perhaps unfair. If he was just trying to be a big man, then who gives a shit what happens to him.

But again, life's a bitch. It was for Martin and it is for Zimmerman. It is for all of us

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Response to pipoman (Reply #38)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 08:11 AM

40. that is because they

have been taught to parrot the talking point about "self defense laws encourage vigilantism" but not what the word means. They also know that if they take a stand against vigilantism on principle, they would be accused of, then think of themselves, as Zimmerman apologists.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 06:03 PM

17. The South has a history of not convicting White men who murder Black men.

I feel the stand your ground law, however unintentional, has legalized this unjust historical act.

I will never be sure if justice was served if Zimmerman is found not guilty.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 06:45 PM

18. The world would feel my wrath. As soon as 'Dancing With The Stars' is over.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 06:48 PM

19. Well, it depends....

If he walks clean, my reaction will be about the same as the Casey Anthony or OJ Simpson verdicts -- government continues to hire prosecutors who can't find their butts with both hands.

OTOH

If Zimmerman is found Not Guilty of 2nd degree murder, but found Guilty of a lesser included charge, such as Voluntary Manslaughter or Involuntary Manslaughter, I'll be satisfied that the jury considered the evidence, decided it wasn't Murder, but came to the conclusion that if what Zimmerman did was not Murder, then it was Manslaughter.

My question to the OP or anyone familiar with Florida law: what impact, if any, does Florida's 5/10/20 law for gun use in a crime have in this case?

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Response to OmahaBlueDog (Reply #19)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 06:55 PM

20. 30 years for manslaugher

life for murder 2, not 25-life.
Casey Anthony was a total train wreck. The DA could not even show a cause of death. Even if she were convicted, she would have walked (mistrial) because the DA withheld exculpatory evidence. In Florida, that is a BFD.
It is also one of the reasons why I am skeptical of any trial by media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Caylee_Anthony

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #20)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:07 PM

21. Thanks. I have a follow up question.

You may not know the answer.

For the "life" and "30 year" sentences: are those "minimum/mandatory", or would Zimmerman be entitled to gain time, reduction due to overcrowding, good behavior, etc?

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Response to OmahaBlueDog (Reply #21)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:14 PM

22. have to ask a lawyer that one

but, Starke is no country club.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-20-Life

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #22)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:30 PM

24. Neither are Raiford, Martin, or DeSoto Annex

To me, the key sentence in that Wiki is this:
Under Florida law, the prosecutor in a case is the only person eligible to waive any mandatory minimum.


IMO, there will be a plea deal. It doesn't matter much what prison to which Zimmerman is sent; if he's placed in the general population at a maximum security prison, he's most likely a dead man. My guess it that his attorneys will have him plead to either Vol. or Invol. Manslaughter. The conditions will be a sentence in the 10-15 year range, with no minimum/mandatorys, and they'll ask that he be sent to a prison like Avon Park (near his home, and with fairly minimal security). In a case such as this, my recollection is that he'd be out in 4-6 years with good behavior, and assuming he works while he's in prison (gain time).

Note to all: I'm not saying I think this is what should happen. I'm saying I predict this is what will happen.

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Response to OmahaBlueDog (Reply #24)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:38 PM

25. correct me if I am in error,

but I get the distinct feeling we both hope you are wrong.
Not familiar with those places. I have driven by Starke a couple of times, close enough for me.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #25)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:57 PM

26. I've never been to any of these fine establishments as a resident.

Many years ago, I had occasion to visit someone inside Martin (near the north side of Lake Okeechobee).

I was an alternate on a jury that sent a man to prison for life for 1st degree murder. He's in DeSoto Annex.

Once upon a time, Raiford had the reputation for being the toughest, meanest prison in Florida.

Starke, as you are doubtless aware, is where prisoners are executed.

As for what should happen to Zimmerman: I think first and foremost, the prosecutor would have been better off taking all the evidence to the Grand Jury and letting them decide whether to proceed with charges. Truthfully, I think the guy overreacted in thinking he was in far more danger than he actually was, and made a horrible mistake. What that means legally, I have no idea.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:19 PM

23. I think the DA is desperately trying to get a plea bargain to a lower charge. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #23)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:58 PM

27. Agreed

He wants a lesser charge, and the State wants this to go away.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 08:01 PM

28. It depends on the facts.

No other way to say it.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Mon Apr 23, 2012, 01:00 PM

29. The police fuckup on the night of the shooting...

...prevented proper evidence collection and witness testimony.


Sue the SPD

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Mon Apr 23, 2012, 02:40 PM

32. He'll probably be acquitted.

The State isn't going to be able to prove it's case so they'll just make an appeal to emotion with the jury. "Ladies and Gentlemen, we can't prove anything, but you just have to trust us on this one and say he's guilty." That's what everyone calling for Zimmerman's head is doing. They're making emotional pleas without looking at what little evidence has been shared with the public. The prosecution will have to thoroughly demonize him and hope the jury forgets to look at the facts.

It won't have any effect on me if and when he's acquitted. Maybe I'll get called out for a mutual aid to a jurisdiction with protests going on but that's pretty unlikely.

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Response to jeepnstein (Reply #32)

Mon Apr 23, 2012, 03:11 PM

33. shades of

"Ladies and Gentlemen, we can't prove anything, but you just have to trust us on this one and say he's guilty."

Casey Anthony. Trial by media at its finest.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Mon Apr 23, 2012, 05:33 PM

34. Not being privy to the arguments and evidence,

it's my firm policy to accept acquittals at face value. As far as I'm concerned, O.J. Simpson, Robert Blake, and Casey Anthony are innocent. It's not my right as a stranger to the case to hand down an official verdict, so I don't bother. The TV will tell me the evidence (real or fabricated) they think will excite me, not the evidence that paints an entire picture.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Mon Apr 23, 2012, 07:29 PM

36. It'll be a case of poor crime scene investigation and prosocution over-reach...

 

It won't bother me at all... but I hope the DA learns a lesson from the event.

I'll be surprised if he's convicted of current charges.
I'll be less surprised if he's completely aquitted.
I'm expecting to see a plea deal for manslaughter in a safer minimum security prison.

I won't be surprised at all when an aquittal causes mass rioting and many more rioters get injured/killed because they decide the trial by media was enough justice for them.

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Response to shadowrider (Original post)

Mon Apr 23, 2012, 08:42 PM

37. That would depend partly on WHY he was acquitted

 

If it was for lack of sufficient evidence to prove murder beyond a reasonable doubt, I'd probably blame the police for doing a shitty job of investigating the scene and maintain that what Zimmerman did was morally wrong.

If it was because the evidence showed that Zimmerman was actually legally justified in shooting Trayvon Martin, I'd still say that what Zimmerman did was morally wrong, and blame the media and the public outrage industry for creating a circus-like atmosphere.

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