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Sat Apr 21, 2012, 04:00 PM

'Stand Your Ground' Laws Promote Vigilante Mentality

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-03-29/news/sns-201203291250usnewsusnwr201203280328debate.ground.gmar29_1_ground-law-gun-lobby-deadly-mistake

Florida's so-called stand your ground law was a deadly mistake and should be repealed. But that law is only one chapter of a larger, tragic story--the gun lobby pushing to realize its vision of an America where dangerous people like George Zimmerman walk among us, with a vigilante mentality, carrying the guns to make that mentality deadly.

In practice, "stand your ground" really means "shoot first and ask questions later." These laws, enacted in over 20 states, radically changed the centuries-old legal rule that the use of lethal force in self-defense should be a last resort, when there is no avenue of escape or avoidance for a person under attack. According to police and prosecutors, these laws have allowed countless dangerous individuals to literally "get away with murder" by claiming "self-defense" in situations where deadly force easily could have been avoided.

But while Florida's "shoot first" law may be the reason George Zimmerman is still free and uncharged with any crime, Trayvon Martin is dead because George Zimmerman had a gun. Whatever happened between them that night, if George Zimmerman did not have a gun with him, Trayvon Martin would be alive today.

And how did George Zimmerman come to be carrying a gun on that fateful night? It is because Florida's abysmal gun laws allowed him, despite his arrest record and history of violence, to carry a loaded, hidden gun in public. George Zimmerman embodies the National Rifle Association's vision for America--a dangerous, armed man, driven by a mentality of fear and looking for a chance to justify his decision to carry a gun by finding a reason to use it.

<more>

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38 replies, 3898 views

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Arrow 38 replies Author Time Post
Reply 'Stand Your Ground' Laws Promote Vigilante Mentality (Original post)
jpak Apr 2012 OP
AH1Apache Apr 2012 #1
shadowrider Apr 2012 #3
WingDinger Apr 2012 #13
shadowrider Apr 2012 #16
baldguy Apr 2012 #2
PavePusher Apr 2012 #6
baldguy Apr 2012 #22
shadowrider Apr 2012 #23
AH1Apache Apr 2012 #26
shadowrider Apr 2012 #29
baldguy Apr 2012 #33
gejohnston Apr 2012 #34
shadowrider Apr 2012 #38
oneshooter Apr 2012 #32
shadowrider Apr 2012 #4
rrneck Apr 2012 #5
spin Apr 2012 #7
jpak Apr 2012 #8
spin Apr 2012 #9
jpak Apr 2012 #10
spin Apr 2012 #11
WingDinger Apr 2012 #15
TPaine7 Apr 2012 #17
shadowrider Apr 2012 #18
spin Apr 2012 #19
Callisto32 Apr 2012 #25
WingDinger Apr 2012 #28
PavePusher Apr 2012 #36
gejohnston Apr 2012 #12
WingDinger Apr 2012 #14
spin Apr 2012 #20
WingDinger Apr 2012 #21
shadowrider Apr 2012 #24
Callisto32 Apr 2012 #27
spin Apr 2012 #30
ileus Apr 2012 #31
Cronkite Apr 2012 #35
shadowrider Apr 2012 #37

Response to jpak (Original post)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 04:05 PM

1. Oh I get it I get it

 

It's the jpak weekend dump.
This article is so full of shit, especially coming from an anti 2A news rag such as the chicago tribune.
Fail





yup

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Response to AH1Apache (Reply #1)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 04:12 PM

3. Yea, it's his news dump. He thinks he's doing something for the anti-gun movement.

Since when does an arrest record preclude someone from owning a firearm especially when there are no convictions and especially no FELONY convictions?

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #3)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 05:52 PM

13. So, anyone that sees this law as ill conceived, is part of the vast left wing conspiracy?

 

Doing something for the ANTI-GUN MOVEMENT!


Until the PRO-GUN MOVEMENT stops defending the indefensible, and sociopaths, they aint doin themselves any favors.

There are plenty of us that own guns, and think NRA types are batshit crazy. Dangerous, anti-american, inhumane, selfish as all hell.

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Response to WingDinger (Reply #13)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 06:01 PM

16. Strawman. I never said that. You implied and said I said it.

I don't disagree on the NRA, but the point is, so many just explode against guns, yet do NOTHING to further the cause. All they do is sit online and make post after post after post after post and do nothing else.

THAT is the point.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 04:05 PM

2. "...a dangerous, armed man, driven by a mentality of fear..."

Describes just about every gun owner.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 04:42 PM

6. At least your bigotry is "open carry". n/t

 

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #6)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 07:22 PM

22. It's the acknowlegdement of reality.

There's no reason at all for a private citizen to carry a gun. If anything, these past few week have proven it. Those who claim to be the most liberal gun owners in America - the gun-nuts on DU - have gone all-out to defend the murderers of Trayvon Martin and Summer Moody. For no apparent reason other than those murderers were carrying guns.

Your true colors are shinning through...

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Response to baldguy (Reply #22)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 07:26 PM

23. No one here is defending anyone.

All anyone has ever said is "Wait for the facts". Nothing more, nothing less.

Unless you have specific posts to cite. I'd love to see them.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #22)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 07:34 PM

26. Who here is defending Zimmerman?

 

And as far as Summer Moody, she was with the 3 teen boys that were committing felonies and they were doing so with a rifle, that makes her an accompice whether you want to admit it or not.

I have said this time and time again, if she had been where she told her parents she was going to be, none of this would have happened.

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Response to AH1Apache (Reply #26)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 07:39 PM

29. Amazing, idin't it?

Girl shot in Alabama: Had she stayed where she was supposed to be, this wouldn't have happened = Innocent

Zimmerman: Had he stayed where he was supposed to, this wouldn't have happened = Guilty

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #29)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 09:40 PM

33. You do understand that Summer Moody's attackers were felons, don't you?

And Zimmerman had several run-ins with police, too? In any state with rational gun restrictions none of them would have been allowed to own a gun at all, much less carry one around.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002590425
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014102710

Trying to defend atrocities does not help your argument.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #33)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 09:51 PM

34. If the shooters in Alabama were felons

then they should be on their way to federal prison, unless the DA forgets to tell the feds as part of some bullshit plea deal. That tends to happen even in the places with "sane" gun laws.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #33)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:15 AM

38. Zimmerman had several run-ins with the police

Cool. Where are the convictions?

I could be arrested 50 times. Without a FELONY conviction, I can carry.

If the shooter in Alabama was a felon, he should be in jail now on firearms related charges.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #22)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 09:13 PM

32. Your true colors are also "shinning" through

You have found them all guilty, with out a trial. And for no apparent reason other than a firearm was used.

Do they get an appeal? Obviously not, since there was no trial. So straight to the gallows with them!

Now that you have found them guilty, do you want to pull the handle too?

It is my sincerest hope that you never find yourself in their shoes. To be crucified and found guilty only on the hearsay evidence found on the internet is an abomination of justice. And I for one find it truly sickening and lacking in "progressive"values, of any values.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 04:14 PM

4. What else do you do to support anti-gun measures besides post on a website?

Donate?
Call?
Propose legislation?

or do you follow and accost legal CCW holders, dismantle their gun and throw the parts in the bushes?

Maybe that's why you have no time to actually do anything.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 04:38 PM

5. Can't anyone write their own opinions any more? nt

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 04:54 PM

7. If 'Stand Your Ground' laws actually do promote a vigilante mentality then why ...

are incidents like the Trayvon Martin shooting rare in Florida. Over 800,000 residents of the state have concealed weapons permits. If only 1% of those individuals felt they were vigilantes, we would have 8000 Zimmermans walking our streets.

The "Stand Your Ground" defense has only been used 130 times in Florida since 2005. It would seem that if the Chicago Tribune was right, we would have far more incidents.

Number of "stand your ground" cases rises as legislators rethink law
Posted on Thursday, 03.22.12

The controversial law which police have cited in their decision not to charge the man who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin has been invoked at least 130 times statewide since 2005.emphasis addedemphasis added

***snip***

In 50 of the cases, the person who used force was never charged with a crime. Another nine defendants were granted immunity by a judge and nine cases were dismissed.

In 10 cases, the defendant pleaded guilty to lesser crimes.

Of the 28 cases that made it to trial, 19 people were found guilty of a crime.

Twenty-two cases are still pending. (The outcomes of two could not be learned by press time.)

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/22/2708767/number-of-stand-your-ground-cases.html#storylink=cpy


And I could point out that Chicago with all its reasonable gun laws is hardly a nonviolent paradise.

Chicago Murder Rate Up 60 Percent In 3 Months
JASON KEYSER 04/12/12 02:50 PM ET AP

CHICAGO Homicides in Chicago spiked by 60 percent during the first three months of the year despite an increase in police resources in some of the city's most dangerous neighborhoods, according to new police crime statistics.

The Chicago Police Department data showed that nonfatal shootings also rose sharply in the first quarter compared with the same three months in 2011.

***snip***

The police statistics show 120 homicides from Jan. 1 through April 1, compared with 75 over the same period in 2011.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/12/chicago-murder-rate-up_n_1420382.html

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Response to spin (Reply #7)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 05:01 PM

8. They are not rare - and increased by 25% after JEB signed SYG in FL

Last edited Sat Apr 21, 2012, 11:53 PM - Edit history (1)

Rise in justifiable homicides linked to weak gun control laws

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/05/stand-your-ground-gun-control-data?newsfeed=true

Rising numbers of civilian justifiable homicides across the US are closely linked to states with both weak gun controls and stand-your-ground laws, according to a Guardian analysis of FBI and other data, which show a 25% increase in such killings since the controversial self-defence laws started being introduced around 2005.

Stand-your-ground (SYG) measures, which have attracted increasing scrutiny since the fatal shooting of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin by a neighbourhood watch volunteer in Florida, allow citizens to use deadly force when they believe their life is in danger, without requiring them to retreat or try to escape the threat first.

Florida was the first state to introduce an SYG law in 2005 and similar measures have now been adopted in some form by more than 20 states. Many were passed in 2006.

The Trayvon Martin case has led to calls for the SYG laws to be reviewed or repealed.

<more>

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Response to jpak (Reply #8)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 05:07 PM

9. An increase of 25% makes a far better headline than a total 0f 130 cases in 7 years ...

The majority of these cases were also considered to have involved the appropriate use of force to stop an attack.

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Response to spin (Reply #9)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 05:10 PM

10. Yeah - just 130 dead folks - who cares

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #10)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 05:20 PM

11. Is the fact irrelevant that in most of these cases an innocent person ...

was able to stop an attack from an individual who wished to put them in the hospital or six feet under?

Will you admit that there are times when the use of force for self defense is justified, or do you hold the view that a person has no right to defend himself when attacked?

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Response to spin (Reply #11)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 06:00 PM

15. I have been in hundreds of fights in my life, and not once was I hospitalized. And yes

 

I once had my head pounded on the sidewalk. I back concealed carry, with much education. But to add stand your ground, to concealed carry, is beyond stupid.

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Response to WingDinger (Reply #15)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 06:16 PM

17. Maybe some of us want to live in a society where innocent people don't have to match strength,

 

speed, and fighting skills with attackers hundreds of times at the risk of life and limb.

Perhaps you're unusually skilled or lucky. Perhaps you like fighting. Perhaps you're a badass. But why should smaller, weaker, older, or more mild-mannered people be compelled to use hand to hand combat against attackers?

If I physically assail people because I like fighting, forcing innocent folks to defend themselves or get hurt or killed, maybe my death wouldn't be a huge loss to society. Perhaps it would serve the laudible purpose of detering other bullying thugs.

It's something to think about.

And those who enjoy fighting can still engage. They can have clubs, gyms, associations, championships, etc. But if they pick on non-combatants they can expect the possibility of death. It doesn't sound so terrible to me, at least if the thugs in question are credible threats to seriously injure or kill the non-combatants.

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Response to TPaine7 (Reply #17)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 06:20 PM

18. See, we do agree.. :)

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Response to WingDinger (Reply #15)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 06:32 PM

19. A question ...

Why does a police officer have no duty to retreat before he uses deadly force?

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Response to WingDinger (Reply #15)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 07:32 PM

25. Meh, much ado about nothing.

"beyond stupid" are big words, do you have any proof?

Also, hundreds? Unless you have a profession that requires life and death fights (soldier, police officer on the meanest damn streets in the world) you need to change your habits, and not doing so is "beyond stupid". I've been in 1 life-death struggle, and I'll avoid any further like the plague, thanks.

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Response to Callisto32 (Reply #25)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 07:39 PM

28. My habits were, I was skinny, with a large vocabulary.

 

I only started one fight in my life, and that was goading from friends to fight the same bully, after I WON the fight with a bully three years older and a lot bigger. That was the fight that I got my head pounded into the sidewalk. I have not started a fight since.

But I certainly dont pack heat to remove the threat of ever getting in a fight.

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Response to WingDinger (Reply #15)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 02:41 AM

36. "I have been in hundreds of fights in my life..."

 



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Response to jpak (Reply #10)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 05:49 PM

12. So before that time

how many innocent people went to prison under Duty to Retreat? That is the part they leave out.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #12)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 05:57 PM

14. Isnt it really more, minimum force necessary than duty to retreat?

 

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Response to WingDinger (Reply #14)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 06:39 PM

20. The force used in self defense should be appropriate to the attack...

Use of Deadly Force for Lawful Self-Defense

***snip***

Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.

Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1172&pid=33496

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Response to spin (Reply #20)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 06:49 PM

21. Sounds like many gun nuts have stand your ground misconstrued with

 

misinformation. The thing I am worried about is, for instance, if a burglar is no longer a threat, as you have them under your gun, can you empty on them anyway? They were committing a felony. What if they have hands up? Begging like Trayvon not to kill him?

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Response to WingDinger (Reply #21)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 07:31 PM

24. No

1) They are under your gun and no longer a threat.
2) So what if they were committing a felony. You caught them, have them under your gun and now you call 911.
3) Hands up indicates surrender, UNLESS they then charge or approach you in a threatening manner.
4) There is no proof Trayvon begged anyone not to kill him, not on tape, nowhere. That's made up stuff.

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Response to WingDinger (Reply #21)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 07:53 PM

30. If I confront a burglar in my home ...

I have the right to assume that he intends to harm me or my family. If all he wanted to do was to steal my stuff, he could wait until the home was unoccupied.

However, I realize that inexperienced criminals sometimes do stupid things. Therefore I would not shoot an individual just because he was stealing my TV. I might draw down and him and if he obeyed my instructions all would end well. If he turned and ran out a door, I would not shoot him or follow him.

My having a duty to retreat in such a situation might enable the intruder to go up the steps to the second story of my house where other family members sleep.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 09:00 PM

31. loaded hidden gun.....fear the brown man.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Sat Apr 21, 2012, 11:23 PM

35. I believe if you are being attacked you have the right to defend yourself with deadly force.

 

You never know at what point your attacker will stop. Yes, people have been beaten to death.

I DO consider the "stand your ground laws" a bit of a problem. I can understand not wanting to be beaten to death however when "stand your ground" is interpreted to mean you can pursue a "suspect" it is a whole different issue.

I think the laws need some more refinement. One big improvement would be you should not be able to place yourself in contact with a "suspicious person" unless that person is on your property. (Deeded property- NOT you neighborhood)

As Zimmerman is about to find out it is almost ALWAYS better to "call it in" to the police than to intervene. Even if he is found innocent his legal fees and notoriety will be extremely costly for him.

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Response to Cronkite (Reply #35)

Sun Apr 22, 2012, 06:59 AM

37. Zimmerman is indigent. His attorney is doing this "Pro Bono"

Notoriety? This guy won't be able to go to the store to buy a pair of socks for YEARS. Even if found not guilty. Some nut out there will try and collect the $10k dead or alive money that's been put up.

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