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Why is it so hard... (Original Post) discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 OP
because, as a woman, lots of decades on this planet seabeyond Apr 2012 #1
I can relate to both of you gejohnston Apr 2012 #3
I congratulate you. I, personally, have never needed a fire extinguisher. TheWraith Apr 2012 #5
a fire extinguisher is not a gun. just to put it simply seabeyond Apr 2012 #6
must be nice to have a husband who handles all that for you. Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #16
those are choices we make. as i said, i lived a lot of years by myself. seabeyond Apr 2012 #19
that is fine for you. you are a part of a WE but, to deny that YOU have no need for a gun Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #30
wow. lol. so, are you suggesting i insist my hubby get rid of guns or i walk? seabeyond Apr 2012 #33
I really don't give a shit what you and your husband do. Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #43
How dare you tell people how they can come in here. WingDinger Apr 2012 #53
Ya know, you might have had a perfectly valid point... eqfan592 Apr 2012 #102
please see my post #108 to seabeyond in this thread. Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #109
Whining? No, I am settling things like adults. The peer group, is just as important as JURY. WingDinger Apr 2012 #124
well, that is good to know that you think that way. seems a lot around here don't. Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #127
you really have no idea how snarky was your own thought process. I respect you being honest Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #18
omg.... because i have never felt the need for a gun, and expressed why others may feel as i, seabeyond Apr 2012 #20
I am just trying to get you to realize that part of your NOT needing a gun is the fact that Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #32
i do NOT want them. they have NEVER been used. i went over a decade living by myself without them seabeyond Apr 2012 #35
you don't want them and yet you have them in YOUR home. Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #39
Not snark, an analogy. PavePusher Apr 2012 #84
No snark there rl6214 Apr 2012 #86
This is where the conversation gets interesting. ManiacJoe Apr 2012 #10
we play the odds in ALL things. yes, the odds are so very low, that i will continue seabeyond Apr 2012 #14
I am sure you and your husband have reduced your odds for being violated in your home. Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #21
again... you are ignoring the decade and a half that i lived on my own. nt seabeyond Apr 2012 #28
when you were young, Yes, I got that and addressed it. Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #34
reno nevada and calif. IF i had chosen to live somewhere seabeyond Apr 2012 #40
yes, I know your mind set Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #42
that is bullshit. i walk tomorrow and i would not have a gun in my house. seabeyond Apr 2012 #44
yes. just forget it. You don't get it and you never will. Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #46
ok. i guess what you are saying is if a woman is married, she does not get to have an opinion seabeyond Apr 2012 #50
Actually, I am trying to articulate a philosophy that has been on my mind for a while now and, Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #108
gosh... and thank you so much tuesday seabeyond Apr 2012 #111
I see what you are saying but, Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #112
i kinda get what you are saying in this post and find it more interesting than the OP seabeyond Apr 2012 #114
I have been trying to make a cohesive statement and a cogent OP for the Feminist group Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #117
the thing I find perplexing gejohnston Apr 2012 #118
my mom grew up in the midwest. spent a lot of time hunting with an uncle seabeyond Apr 2012 #121
and btw.... the 18 yrs we have been married, he has never needed the gun, either. nt seabeyond Apr 2012 #29
BUT>>>he HAS ONE or maybe more. does he not? Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #36
I find that interesting Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #13
yes... here in texas seabeyond Apr 2012 #17
EXCELLENT POINT fightthegoodfightnow Apr 2012 #128
re: "he is responsible. it is his to do. i respect that." discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #55
I'm about as liberal as it gets... SteveABG Apr 2012 #2
The problem is not everyone can distinguish between movonne Apr 2012 #11
And those who feel they have a problem... discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #66
Well there is a good idea. Perhaps only people trained and certified should be permitted to Warren Stupidity Apr 2012 #91
And more broad-brush generalizations... eqfan592 Apr 2012 #100
google shall issue. Warren Stupidity Apr 2012 #104
shall issue gejohnston Apr 2012 #107
re: "Perhaps only people trained and certified should be permitted to carry... discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #132
Ideology. rrneck Apr 2012 #4
Still locked into that "emotional anti gun" meme. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #24
yes. the emotional thing on both sides disgusts me. Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #38
Socialism is an economic system rrneck Apr 2012 #45
"The bulk of consumer demand including politics is emotionally driven." discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #56
Did I say Socialism? Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #62
Didn't KGO have have gejohnston Apr 2012 #68
Socialism is a socialist ideology. rrneck Apr 2012 #73
Ah, back in one of your foul moods I see Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #103
Petty bullshit always puts me in a foul mood. rrneck Apr 2012 #105
You must only read your own posts Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #106
Why do you think rrneck Apr 2012 #110
Thanks for an excellent question and here is my simple answer. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #120
Nope. rrneck Apr 2012 #123
I don't know why you say "nope", as we agree on most of it. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #125
Disagree on a couple of things gejohnston Apr 2012 #126
I keep saying "nope" because we disagree. rrneck Apr 2012 #129
Not quite sure what you mean by "emotional embroidery" Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #130
The preference you show rrneck Apr 2012 #131
yes Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2012 #25
I agree with seabeyond, that many people can't fathom being in a situation where it's needed. gateley Apr 2012 #7
Pepper spray might work for you or someone like you ... spin Apr 2012 #22
That is a good option (and suggestion). Unfortunately, it's not good enough for most into guns. Hoyt Apr 2012 #27
Your brush is too broad. ManiacJoe Apr 2012 #48
Do you carry that instead of a gun? Any other gun guys wish to speak up? Hoyt Apr 2012 #52
Not instead of, but in addition to. ManiacJoe Apr 2012 #54
^^ Callisto32 Apr 2012 #95
I carry a kimber pepper blaster where my EDC isn't allowed. ileus Apr 2012 #60
I carry both ... spin Apr 2012 #49
Ditto n/t X_Digger Apr 2012 #57
Good post... rl6214 Apr 2012 #87
Really? Callisto32 Apr 2012 #94
That's very thoughtful of you, thanks! I like the idea of a strobe and alarm a LOT! gateley Apr 2012 #74
Absolutely! discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #77
People who practice "situational awareness" ... spin Apr 2012 #80
Yes -- I took a class when I was thinking about getting a gun after this incident, and gateley Apr 2012 #99
That sounds like a very upsetting experience. discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #58
I have no problem with people (responsible, non-Zimmerman people) carrying guns. I just gateley Apr 2012 #76
Bravo! discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #79
The very next day I called the police and asked "how do I get a gun, and where can I learn to use it gateley Apr 2012 #98
A bit of a straw man- digonswine Apr 2012 #8
Agreed discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #59
Defense in your own home Politicalboi Apr 2012 #9
I like the way you put it...I agree with everything you said... movonne Apr 2012 #12
Thanks Politicalboi Apr 2012 #15
+A bunch. Hoyt Apr 2012 #26
For some reason many people can't seem to believe that bad things happen in churches ... spin Apr 2012 #47
one point gejohnston Apr 2012 #51
Point taken discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #61
Let's put those restrictions on the LEO's first, eh? Callisto32 Apr 2012 #96
"Unless we have nukes or tanks in our yards, that reason is moot." eqfan592 Apr 2012 #101
Sure it's valid for SD in a small percentage of situations. But why arm millions of citizens on the Hoyt Apr 2012 #23
Yup Politicalboi Apr 2012 #37
re: "I think most who carry are just Zimmermans waiting for the "perfect storm."" discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #63
Most would have said same about Zimmerman before he murdered unarmed teenager. Hoyt Apr 2012 #67
"...you guys never consider..." discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #69
But, you admit all aren't. Again Zimmy seemed responsible too Hoyt Apr 2012 #70
I can only talk about the folks I know. discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #71
The key point is your friends may be the gods of carriers, but all are not. Hoyt Apr 2012 #72
re: "...your friends may be the gods of carriers, but all are not." discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #75
Zimmerman being a recent example. Lougher too. Hoyt Apr 2012 #78
I don't think Loughner... discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #81
He was legal until he started shooting people in the head. Hoyt Apr 2012 #82
He was permitted to legally make the purchase. discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #113
Loughner didn't have a concealed carry license rl6214 Apr 2012 #90
couldn't leave home without a machete or two strapped to your body? rl6214 Apr 2012 #89
All I want to know is... discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #115
Pretty broad brush again for your normal, baseless accusations. rl6214 Apr 2012 #88
Data show you are wrong. Callisto32 Apr 2012 #97
Great post. Looks like you're getting some sound replies. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #31
Thanks discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #64
because some believe they're only lethal weapons carried by hidden criminals. ileus Apr 2012 #41
It is truly sad that some feel that way. discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #65
I can think of a couple of reasons Kali Apr 2012 #83
re: "being taught to fear guns" discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #116
Because they have no concept of right and wrong and just want to coddle the criminal rl6214 Apr 2012 #85
Damn liberals. Bleeding hearts. Brie and Chardonnay Volvo drivers. Warren Stupidity Apr 2012 #92
I drink Merlot gejohnston Apr 2012 #119
Someone with good taste ;) n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2012 #122
Really? Or you left off the sarcasm tag? Logical Apr 2012 #93
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
1. because, as a woman, lots of decades on this planet
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 05:44 PM
Apr 2012

living on my own for a lot of years and doing what i want out and about in a 24 hour town, i have never felt the need to have a gun for protection.

could the out of the blue situation happen, where i wished i had a gun? sure. it has never happened. kinda, or a little bit. lucky me.

that is why it is hard for a lot of people to fathom the need.

that being said.

my husband likes guns. he feels the need to have them for protection. he is responsible. it is his to do. i respect that.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
3. I can relate to both of you
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 05:53 PM
Apr 2012

I grew up with them, and I like them. Where I grew up, you were either in the wilderness or Mayberry, we didn't bother locking our doors at night.
Since I am either home (I live in a rural area) or at a college campus, I don't carry. If I see the need, (like get a job as an office manager for Planned Parenthood in Kansas or Florida for example) I probably would.

TheWraith

(24,331 posts)
5. I congratulate you. I, personally, have never needed a fire extinguisher.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 05:57 PM
Apr 2012

However, I still recognize that a fire extinguisher has valid uses. I just wish everyone could make that distinction.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
16. must be nice to have a husband who handles all that for you.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:41 PM
Apr 2012

live alone by yourself out in the woods, off the grid, provide you own food and protein and get back to me seabeyond. what about when you get old and frail?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
19. those are choices we make. as i said, i lived a lot of years by myself.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:44 PM
Apr 2012

i said in another post, i lived in reno for years. alone. worked until late. played thru out night.

IF i had to forage for my own food, then hell ya i would get a gun. i would run into the problem of killing the animal. i have broken more windows trying to kill flies.... i dont kill, well.

HEY..... tell me? why can i accept and respect others wanting guns. and the feel of responses, it is certainly not reciprocated?

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
30. that is fine for you. you are a part of a WE but, to deny that YOU have no need for a gun
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:52 PM
Apr 2012

when you, in fact, live in a home where there are guns is disingenuous at best.

and to put it on your husband for being responsible for YOUR defense is SO ... little girly and you don't even realize it. YOU, of all people, the great feminsit of DU coming in here and having the luxury of having a husband.

Why don't YOU step up and learn for yourself?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
33. wow. lol. so, are you suggesting i insist my hubby get rid of guns or i walk?
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:54 PM
Apr 2012

or are you insisting i be fearful?

or are you insisting that i think i need a gun when decades of ot needing a gun is my experience.

so little girl? lol

i am all for you having a gun. go for it. i dont care. you though, seem to not like the idea of people feeling they dont need them. why the disconnect?

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
43. I really don't give a shit what you and your husband do.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 07:04 PM
Apr 2012

IT is not my business but, don't come in here having the benefit of guns in the home and act all holier than thou. that shit won't cut it with me.

 

WingDinger

(3,690 posts)
53. How dare you tell people how they can come in here.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 08:51 PM
Apr 2012

Or dissallowing them to tell what you asked. That is the height of rude.

I suppose you are going to stand your ground now?

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
102. Ya know, you might have had a perfectly valid point...
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 12:13 PM
Apr 2012

...until your last line. It was pointless and counterproductive to the point you were trying to make.

Hope the cheep shot was worth destroying your own argument.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
109. please see my post #108 to seabeyond in this thread.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:25 PM
Apr 2012

as for your stand your ground comment...I could dish something back but I will refrain because you strike me as the type of poster that will Alert and then go over to H&M and whine about it. Pretty sick of this whole DU3 set-up.

Seems like it is counter productive. Maybe it is just me and I need a break from RKBA and possibly all of DU.

It is Spring and gorgeous outside and I have a life and a family and I need this shit like another hole in my head.

Have a good day, WingDinger.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
127. well, that is good to know that you think that way. seems a lot around here don't.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 09:06 PM
Apr 2012

good to know you are here for exchange of ideas.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
18. you really have no idea how snarky was your own thought process. I respect you being honest
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:43 PM
Apr 2012

and trying to understand the concept but, honestly your post came off as very condescending to single women who have to provide for everything.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
20. omg.... because i have never felt the need for a gun, and expressed why others may feel as i,
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:45 PM
Apr 2012

addressing the OP, that is snarky?

i dont CARE if you own a gun.

why am i not allowed to NOT own a gun?

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
32. I am just trying to get you to realize that part of your NOT needing a gun is the fact that
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:53 PM
Apr 2012

you live in a home protected by a MAN with a gun. Can you not see the double standard in that?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
35. i do NOT want them. they have NEVER been used. i went over a decade living by myself without them
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:55 PM
Apr 2012

i grew up in a home without them.

no, i do not see the double standard.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
84. Not snark, an analogy.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:41 AM
Apr 2012

Both are protective devices to use in low-probability, high-threat incidents, that everyone hopes to never need to use. But if you have a fire, an axe is a poor substitute for a fire extinguisher... and if someone is presenting a deadly threat to you, a fire extinguisher is a poor substitute for a gun.

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)
10. This is where the conversation gets interesting.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:25 PM
Apr 2012

> could the out of the blue situation happen, where i wished i had a gun? sure.
> it has never happened. kinda, or a little bit. lucky me.

At this point SeaBeyond recognizes there is the need for protection when the low-odds event finally happens and she is no longer lucky. Does she continue to "play the odds" and hope for the best, or does she now make some preparations to be more ready for that unlikely event? (Note that preparations does not necessarily mean carrying a gun.)

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
14. we play the odds in ALL things. yes, the odds are so very low, that i will continue
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:38 PM
Apr 2012

"to play" them. as i do in all my decision making be it take a shower or drive a car. smoke cig (much higher odds) or eat a candy bar at night.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
21. I am sure you and your husband have reduced your odds for being violated in your home.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:45 PM
Apr 2012

alarm system?

gated community?

"good" neighborhood?

fences?

dog?

not everyone has the luxuries that your husband has provided for you and your family.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
34. when you were young, Yes, I got that and addressed it.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:55 PM
Apr 2012

Last edited Fri Apr 6, 2012, 09:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Where did you live? Was it in a "bad" part of town? Somehow, I doubt it but, mea culpa if I am wrong.

Also, you know that youth has that sense of invincibility.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
40. reno nevada and calif. IF i had chosen to live somewhere
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:59 PM
Apr 2012

that was less than safe, or scared me, or i felt threatened, THEN i would have considered buying a gun. i never did. the choices i made was living in a safer environment and thru my own choices let myself be as safe as possible.

tuesday. the poster asked why people cannot understand.

you seem to be having issue understanding why others may not understand. i explained the why.

put it out there

just threw it into the wind.

as maybe why others do not get people need a gun to protect themselves.

and if a person started an OP about why people thought they ought to have a gun, then i would put forth an argument why some feel the need to own a gun to protect themselves.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
42. yes, I know your mind set
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 07:03 PM
Apr 2012

I am trying to open your mind as to why your own thinking is part of the problem especially when it comes to women. You have luxuries enjoyed that you take for granted.

YOU don't own a gun is not true when you live in home where it is a WE and WE have guns in the home.

own it. seabeyond. own your part in it. claim it.

BE THE FEMINIST YOU CLAIM TO BE.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
44. that is bullshit. i walk tomorrow and i would not have a gun in my house.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 07:16 PM
Apr 2012

you OWN it. own that not ALL people feel the need to have a gun. geeez

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
46. yes. just forget it. You don't get it and you never will.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 07:53 PM
Apr 2012

you get to have it both ways. That is the married way. You are a theoretical feminist. go hide behind your husband. you cute little thing.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
50. ok. i guess what you are saying is if a woman is married, she does not get to have an opinion
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 08:13 PM
Apr 2012

whether the hubby has a gun or not, he would be there to go after any problems.

you know

the wife hiding behind.

so all womens opinion, that differs from yours is invalid, if she is married.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
108. Actually, I am trying to articulate a philosophy that has been on my mind for a while now and,
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:19 PM
Apr 2012

I am not doing a very good job of it.

I got hostile. That was wrong of me. You enjoy the protection of your husband with his guns in the home and you have no idea how they work and see no reason to learn. Just let Hubby handle it. All talk and No action. Words bother you. Nonaction or the lack of responsibility bother me more.
It is two-faced (to me) to enjoy the benefits of 2A and then come in here and act all like - I don't need a gun in the home when, in fact, the whole time There Is A Gun In The Home. That is a real WTF for me.

I want to apologize for letting my emotions get away with me.

I actually want to thank you. This discussion has helped me formulate a better understanding of my own philosophy.

Your opinion and emotions are valid for you. Your marriage is none of my business.

Your truth is different from mine. That is all.

I hope that you will accept my apology and that we can remain of friendly terms.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
111. gosh... and thank you so much tuesday
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:52 PM
Apr 2012

your post is unexpected and really appreciated.

" You enjoy the protection of your husband with his guns in the home and you have no idea how they work and see no reason to learn. Just let Hubby handle it. All talk and No action."

i think this is where we are messing up. for you, i am enjoying my hubbys protection without a responsibility in it. i get to feel secure, without having to own the having gun part.

i, on the other hand may be receiving this protection, but i dont feel it is needed. so whether he has guns or not for me is irrelevant. how do i enjoy the protection when i dont feel there is a need, want, desire for that (what i consider) supposed protection.

possibly, you see it as i dont have to fear, because ultimately the guns are there. but, i did not fear when the guns werent there.

it is not that i dont consider my safety. i do. in all things. and i warrant that as part of not having problems all the years, the odds, and the choices i make. like living somewhere that is relatively crime free. if situations were different, i dont see it as an issue to change my opinion or situation to fit my safety. or for others in that situation to do the same.

but.... ore than anything tuesday and what i was bothered with leaving this thread as it was is this

"that we can remain of friendly terms."

i appreciate, this.



Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
112. I see what you are saying but,
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 04:02 PM
Apr 2012

to me, there is more to it .... I wish I could articulate what it is from a philosophical angle.

You are not afraid and have made choices to minimize your chances of being endangered. I understand that.

Distribution of responsibilities between partners, I understand.

There is something more to this and I can not find the words.

Anyway, thanks for posting and giving me a chance to at least talk with someone about this ideology that is forming in my mind.

Empowerment of women and 2A .... feminism and sexism and how words like calling guns phallic symbols....

swirling around in my head.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
114. i kinda get what you are saying in this post and find it more interesting than the OP
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 04:26 PM
Apr 2012

"Empowerment of women and 2A .... feminism and sexism and how words like calling guns phallic symbols.... "

if you can articulate, i think this would be interesting in the feminist room. because though i dont use guns, or am comfortable with them, i think this would be very interesting and just more understanding which is always good for me. it is a part of the whole i have never considered. so not a subject i have explored. but, having browsed some of my husbands gun magazines, i can get how this would be a part of what you are suggesting. thank you for this.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
117. I have been trying to make a cohesive statement and a cogent OP for the Feminist group
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 04:46 PM
Apr 2012

about this issue but, as you can see I have not been able to articulate it...

there is something to it, I agree.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
118. the thing I find perplexing
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 05:17 PM
Apr 2012

I never understood the gender stereotype thing. Where I grew up, girls and women go hunting, shoot guns, did ranch work, etc. Men also cook. Those of us who grew up in single parent families were taught gun stuff by our mothers. Allen West would never get elected there. Maybe it is just an intermountain west thing.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
121. my mom grew up in the midwest. spent a lot of time hunting with an uncle
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 05:38 PM
Apr 2012

didnt have terrific parents so this time with uncle was so very important and valuable to her. she always was comfortable with guns. i can remember very young, my mom teaching us and i had no interest or desire. she didnt push it.

but like i told tuesday.... guns vs gender has not been under my radar at all, so there has not been any exploration.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
13. I find that interesting
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:37 PM
Apr 2012

Very few females find guns interesting or necessary, yet the guys who like to carry them often cite the vulnerability of females as one of their main justifications. I think testosterone and primal residue has a lot to do with it. I respect their love for guns too. I don't understand it, but I do respect it.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
17. yes... here in texas
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:41 PM
Apr 2012

i was sittin in a car wash and a man, older than i, proceeded to lecture me on my need of a gun, and obama gonna take all guns ect....

i lived in reno nevada for a lot of years and worked until late, and played after that, until the wee hours of the morn.

no, i dont need a gun.

but the man insisted i HAD to protect myself.

i will say though, my hubby has never felt the need to lecture me that i MUST have a gun to protect myself like i have others do, any more than i would tell him he does NOT need a gun.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
55. re: "he is responsible. it is his to do. i respect that."
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 09:30 PM
Apr 2012

So it doesn't seem that it's difficult for you to accept, just not a choice that you would make for yourself.

Thanks

SteveABG

(134 posts)
2. I'm about as liberal as it gets...
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 05:46 PM
Apr 2012

And I fully accept that the use of a firearm is valid for self-defense, when your life is threatened.

Not whenever you get into a "scuffle."

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
66. And those who feel they have a problem...
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:10 PM
Apr 2012

...distinguishing those circumstances should either train until they are confident in their own judgement or not carry.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
91. Well there is a good idea. Perhaps only people trained and certified should be permitted to
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:34 AM
Apr 2012

carry a gun out in public.

Oh wait....

Instead you all advocate for everyone to be allowed to carry everywhere. And the consequences of that are entirely predictable. Nobody thinks "they" have a problem. I can assure you that Zimmerman, for example, didn't and doesn't think he has a problem. It is those "other" people who shouldn't be armed to the gills in some insane Hollywood Cowboy Culture fantasy being acted out in the real world.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
100. And more broad-brush generalizations...
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 12:05 PM
Apr 2012

...and just general BS. Yes, we "all" advocate something, right? Care to provide evidence? What's that? You can't? Just like you can't provide anything other than anecdotal evidence for the rest of the post? Gotcha.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
104. google shall issue.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 12:42 PM
Apr 2012

get back to me if you cannot find broad support here in this forum for essentially unregulated concealed carry.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
107. shall issue
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:16 PM
Apr 2012

means that the police must have a legitimate reason (outlined in the statute) reason to deny a permit. That is not unregulated.

May issue means the police can be arbitrary. In NYC, very few 99 percenters (like diamond couriers) but any 1 percenter for any reason regardless of need. NYC had a scandal about Aerosmith band members having theirs fast tracked without the usual hoops.

California is also "may issue" In Orange County and LA County, permits are only given to rich people who contribute to the Sheriff's campaign. That was another scandal that made the news. Some counties are functionally shall issue.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
132. re: "Perhaps only people trained and certified should be permitted to carry...
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 10:35 PM
Apr 2012

...a gun out in public."

I would suggest that anyone who plans on having a firearm of any type spend time training.
I would suggest that anyone who plans on self-defense as a use for a firearm train regularly.
I would further suggest that anyone who plans on carrying in public train not only in safety and marksmanship but also in specialized tactics for urban and close quarters combat.

But certified by who? Do you mean make it a law that someone has to pass some kind of test before they be allowed to exercise a right? That's not kosher.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
4. Ideology.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 05:57 PM
Apr 2012

Liberal ideology focuses on nurturing rather than punishment. Punishment is equated with violence. Guns are the most ready symbol for violence. Democrats aren't supposed to like guns. People that buy into the ideology do so for emotional reasons. Many who are the most emotionally attached to the ideology push it to the fartherest extreme of it's operational envelope. Since ideologies have become little more than consumer products, "some's good more's better" creates an increasingly polarized partisan population.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
24. Still locked into that "emotional anti gun" meme.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:48 PM
Apr 2012

I discuss this issue with lots of people. Haven't detected many emotions involved, except for the "Over my dead body" types. The emotional content is pretty much a wash between the extremes. You are correct that liberal ideology tends more towards a nurturing society, especially when combined with socialist ideology, which puts public safety above personal predilection.
Ideologies becoming consumer products, not so sure about that. My cynicism hasn't reached that level yet. I don't equate ideologies with sound bites.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
45. Socialism is an economic system
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 07:28 PM
Apr 2012

not a security apparatus. Nice try at spin though.

Ideology is as much a product in our capitalist society an any other. All you have to do is turn on a television or a radio or any other sort of mass media and you will see it. Unless you don't want to because you're too emotionally invested in the ones you've bought.

What do you think keeps the NRA and the VPC in business?

There are two components to the human condition, reason and emotion. The bulk of consumer demand including politics is emotionally driven. Politicians are hiring scientists in the neurosciences to learn how to more effectively push our emotional buttons. That push for efficient ideology distribution is where the sound bites come from.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
62. Did I say Socialism?
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:01 PM
Apr 2012

Thought I said "liberal ideology tends more towards a nurturing society, especially when combined with socialist ideology".
Maybe you missed the first part, like you missed "social" out of your definition of Socialism. How convenient. Nice spin though.

What do I think keeps the NRA and VPC in business? Emotionalism. Hopefully, neither of us are buying from either. But to be fair to each, there are different emotions in play. The NRA sells fear and anger, the VPC sells fear and compassion.

Your last paragraph leaves me wondering what kind of late night radio you listen to. Reminds me of long nights driving through the heartland and listening to Coast to Coast on the AM band.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
73. Socialism is a socialist ideology.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:40 PM
Apr 2012

Thank you for adding nothing to the conversation.

Next time try to reach beyond a distinction without a difference. If you stop shopping for ideology and try to develop your own you have a chance of producing an original idea.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
105. Petty bullshit always puts me in a foul mood.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:20 PM
Apr 2012

Scoring cheap semantic points is a waste of time. I didn't post the above so you could restate it and then spin it for you own emotional pleasure. If the idea was wrong, tell me what is wrong about it. If it's right, expand on it and teach us all something.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to tell the difference between a discussion and group therapy around here.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
106. You must only read your own posts
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:05 PM
Apr 2012

It'll make you go blind, eventually, you know. Happy Easter and feel better.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
110. Why do you think
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:38 PM
Apr 2012

the NRA has been so much more successful than the VPC? I mean, they both exist pretty much at the either end of the political spectrum so the level of partisanship is about the same. Election results seem to indicate a more or less even split between Dems and Repubs, the 2000 election being the most salient example. So why does the NRA have such a large and loyal following, including among some Democrats, and organizations like the VPC are little more than word factories?

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
120. Thanks for an excellent question and here is my simple answer.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 05:35 PM
Apr 2012
Why has the NRA has been so much more successful than the VPC?

The NRA represents a highly invested group of gun owners and gun manufacturers (ie. an entire industry). Mucho dinero on the table, heavy duty propaganda which appeals to Conservative Republicans and R/W Libertarians. They fly the flags, quote the Constitution, spend inordinate amounts of money on getting CC and SYG laws passed.
Most gun owners I know buy the bullshit propaganda. I have family members who think Obama is coming for his hunting rifle. The NRA is insidious.

Meanwhile, those who support VPC, have no vested interest, beyond believing that things have gotten out of hand. A bunch of well meaning people, who politely listen and applaud survivors and surviving family members of gun violence. VPC supporters tend to be cloistered in safe neighborhoods, but like to do "the right thing". Their level of outrage does not yet match the level of zealotry shown by the NRA and it's members.

On the level of consumerism, there is no contest. NRA members buy billions of dollars worth of guns and gun paraphernalia annually. VPC members buy bumper stickers and warm and fuzzy feelings about themselves.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
123. Nope.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:53 PM
Apr 2012

The NRA has a better business model. When it comes to politics, they're both full of shit. But the NRA has a physical symbol around which to wrap their ideological product. For years all the NRA did was hunter and gun safety. They discovered, in no small part because Democratic identity politics, that firearms policy was a cash cow.

Members of the NRA have a physical object (firearms) upon which to focus their attention regardless of why they buy them. The NRA protects their right to own those objects. Any organization that defends an American's right to own property will make money. And if that property could potentially be used to save one's life, the ownership of that property becomes a life or death matter. Just try to talk people out of that on a good day, much less after we've run the economy of the entire planet off the rails and sucked over half of the available oil reserves out of the ground. Haven't you noticed the popularity of apocalyptic content in popular media? Do you think that's an accident? People are nervous for a whole range of reasons from a Democratic president to peak oil to climate change to economic collapse. They are concerned for their safety and when all else fails, human beings will seek to defend themselves and those closest to them. The best tool to use for that purpose is a gun.

And what does the VPC have to offer the ideological consumer? As Hamlet said, "Words, words, words." They have an anti symbol. They are telling Americans they can't have something, which is like telling a spoiled child he can't have a cookie. In a way you are right, the VPC and those who consume that ideology "have no vested interest", which is interpreted by Americans as "I care more about my ideology than about your life". It is an ideology that goes over fine for anyone who has never had to worry about their personal safety or chooses to ignore it, but in the real world it makes the VPC and anyone who parrots them sound like an arrogant, intellectualized, elitist asshole. Which is to say, makes Democrats sound just like the Republican caricature of Democrats. And what's worse, the VPC offers nothing real in return for the embrace of their ideology. Human beings project meaning onto objects in the real world. If there is no focus for projection, the ideology simply has no power. And that's why the NRA will win every time.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
125. I don't know why you say "nope", as we agree on most of it.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:17 PM
Apr 2012

In fact, I agree with all you said, except for the last sentence. The game is in it's early stages. The people will eventually triumph, though probably not in our lifetime. The VPC is weak and pretty useless. The NRA is ruthless and evil, preying on fear and ignorance.
I have more faith in my fellow humans. They are often late to the game, but eventually they get it.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
126. Disagree on a couple of things
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 09:05 PM
Apr 2012
The people will eventually triumph, though probably not in our lifetime. The VPC is weak and pretty useless.

The people are triumphing because the VPC is weak and useless.
The NRA is ruthless and evil, preying on fear and ignorance.

bullshit. The VPC is dishonest, preying on fear ignorance. If they had the truth on their side, they would not have to depend on lies and newspeak. The parallels between VPC and the 19th century temperance movement as unsettling to say the least.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
129. I keep saying "nope" because we disagree.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 09:28 PM
Apr 2012

The two organizations are exactly the same when it comes to social responsibility and integrity, which is to say they both have none.

You characterize the VPC as representing a group of lovely human beings, "believing that things have gotten out of hand. A bunch of well meaning people, who politely listen and applaud survivors and surviving family members of gun violence" while you characterize the NRA as an "insidious" organization that produces "bullshit propaganda". That kind of emotional embroidery is exactly what we pay both organizations to produce.

Check out this picture:



What do you see here? Some sort of political rally? That's not what the NRA and the VPC see. They see a gigantic pool of emotional energy just waiting to be tapped. They don't care about right or wrong, life or death. The only thing they care about is the production of a message they can sell to all those people. We've always been at war with East Asia. The great ideological battles of our time are just struggles for corporate market share.

Guns don't matter. Sexual orientation doesn't matter. Gender doesn't matter. Race doesn't matter. Religion doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the one thing the 1% has been stealing from us for three generations: money. That's how they win. They can work both sides of the ideological street by selling our beliefs to us no matter what we believe. It costs just as much to walk down one sidewalk as the other, and all the money goes into the same pocket. Don't believe me? Check it out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianna_Huffington
Arianna Huffington (formerly Stassinopoulos; born Greek: ???ά??? ?????????ύ???, July 15, 1950) is a Greek-American author and syndicated columnist. She is best known as co-founder of the news website The Huffington Post. A popular conservative commentator in the mid-1990s, she adopted liberal political beliefs in the late 1990s.[1] She is the ex-wife of former Republican congressman Michael Huffington.

In 2003, she ran as an independent candidate for Governor in the California recall election.[2]

In 2009, Huffington was named as number 12 in Forbes' first-ever list of the Most Influential Women In Media.[3] She has also moved up to number 42 in The Guardian's Top 100 in Media List.[4]

In 2011, AOL acquired The Huffington Post for US$315 million and made Huffington president and editor in chief of The Huffington Post Media Group, which included The Huffington Post and then-existing AOL properties such as Engadget, AOL Music, Patch Media, and StyleList.[5]


As robber baron Jay Gould once said, "I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half."

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
130. Not quite sure what you mean by "emotional embroidery"
Sat Apr 7, 2012, 02:14 AM
Apr 2012
That kind of emotional embroidery is exactly what we pay both organizations to produce.

There is zero emotional component on my part, merely an observation. Both organizations operate on the basis of emotional manipulation. One motivated by profit and a wingnut political agenda and the other motivated by doing what they see is the right thing for a more peaceful society.
Regarding Arianna, I thought I was a cynic, but you take it to another level. I can understand that, but I don't enjoy that much pain. I still have hope for the human condition. Have a great weekend. BTW, my wife likes you. She thinks you're very smart. I'm not so sure.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
131. The preference you show
Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:40 AM
Apr 2012

for one organization over the other is the emotional component. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but I think it's wise to be aware of it since there are multi billion dollar industries designed to manipulate and profit from our emotions.

Your wife's very kind. Tell her I said hi.

I will admit to some expertise in the matter, having spent the last three or four decades in the study of what motivates people. I was once a Hannibal Lecter quality salesman until I discovered what an insufferable horse's ass I was. So I went to art school and now I'm a horse's ass in search of the truth.

There's nothing worse than a reformed whore.

Have a good weekend.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
25. yes
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:48 PM
Apr 2012

and the patronizing attitude that goes along with it...especially with all the talk of feminism on this board and to see guns equated as phallic symbols and DUers just don't get how sexist is that.

very frustrating.

gateley

(62,683 posts)
7. I agree with seabeyond, that many people can't fathom being in a situation where it's needed.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:16 PM
Apr 2012

Many years ago I was walking home from work -- bright, sunny day, lots of people still coming and going, and a guy started walking with me and talking. He was making me nervous but since he was asking legit questions about rentals in that area, I conversed with him. Had a funny feeling and when I got to the entrance to my apartment building I stopped and looked up and down the street, and like a nightmare there wasn't a soul in sight. So I turned and ran down the steps through this kind of tunnel to get to the door and I turned around and he was coming after me -- charging down the stairs. At just that moment someone walked out of the apartment building and the guy bolted. But the next day I called the police and asked what I needed to do to get a gun. I was scared to death and I had no doubt if I'd had one, I would have shot him (much to my surprise).

Turns out I never got a gun and it's probably a good thing I didn't have one then, but I'll never forget the feeling of fear, cornered, with a predator coming at me full speed.

spin

(17,493 posts)
22. Pepper spray might work for you or someone like you ...
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:48 PM
Apr 2012

if you ever find yourself in such a situation again.

I just ordered this one as it not only sprays but has a bright strobe light and a piercing alarm.


Tornado Defense System w/ Clip


Product Features

Faces in the right direction in less than a second
High pitched alarm
Blinds attackers and illuminates area with bright strobe
Insta-Freeze pepper spray stops multiple attackers
Insta-Finger lock keeps it in your hand and in the right direction
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00407I0TW/ref=oh_o01_s00_i00_details


You can watch a video of this device if you visit: http://www.gettornado.com/videos.html?vidID=001010 (click on the link for the Tornado 5-in-1.)

I should note that some states have restrictions on carrying pepper spray. It would be wise to check with your local authorities before you buy pepper spray for self defense.
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
27. That is a good option (and suggestion). Unfortunately, it's not good enough for most into guns.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:50 PM
Apr 2012

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)
48. Your brush is too broad.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 08:09 PM
Apr 2012

"not good enough for SOME into guns", sure.
"not good enough for MOST into guns", too broad of a generalization without documentation.

The smart folks carry pepper spray and a gun. Neither is a substitute for the other. The odds of needing pepper spray are noticeably higher than the odds of needing a gun.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
52. Do you carry that instead of a gun? Any other gun guys wish to speak up?
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 08:18 PM
Apr 2012

When you understand the reasons most people carry guns, you'll realize few if any will rely on pepper-spray including the guy who recommended it.

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)
54. Not instead of, but in addition to.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 08:56 PM
Apr 2012

The two are not substitutes for each other. They are used for two very different purposes.

spin

(17,493 posts)
49. I carry both ...
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 08:12 PM
Apr 2012

The use of lethal force should be limited to those situations where no other alternative exists.

 

rl6214

(8,142 posts)
87. Good post...
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:12 AM
Apr 2012

Until you had to add your snark...

"Unfortunately, it's not good enough for most into guns."

gateley

(62,683 posts)
74. That's very thoughtful of you, thanks! I like the idea of a strobe and alarm a LOT!
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:41 PM
Apr 2012

Thankfully, since then I haven't been in a similar situation -- and this was YEARS ago. From it, I learned my lesson that if my gut is telling me something is wrong, don't ignore it.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
77. Absolutely!
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:48 PM
Apr 2012
I learned my lesson that if my gut is telling me something is wrong, don't ignore it.


Excellent advice!

Also from the (unofficial) USMC rules for gunfighting:
#26- Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Have a great night.

spin

(17,493 posts)
80. People who practice "situational awareness" ...
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 11:04 PM
Apr 2012

have been taught to never ignore their gut feelings.

I agree that a strobe and the the loud alarm might deter an aggressive individual and pepper spray might not be necesary.

gateley

(62,683 posts)
99. Yes -- I took a class when I was thinking about getting a gun after this incident, and
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:52 AM
Apr 2012

that's one of the things the instructor stressed -- always be aware of your surroundings and trust anything that doesn't "feel" right.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
58. That sounds like a very upsetting experience.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 09:47 PM
Apr 2012

A few of the posters in this thread hit upon another topic relating to pepper spray type devices.

I very much understand those who chose to avoid firearms. It is a serious responsibility and is not to be taken lightly. I feel that men tend to have more killer instinct than women, in general.

gateley

(62,683 posts)
76. I have no problem with people (responsible, non-Zimmerman people) carrying guns. I just
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:46 PM
Apr 2012

didn't trust myself to have one -- too into drugs and drinking at the time, and too hot a temper!

I've seen some good info and links about pepper spray (don't you just love DU?) but don't even feel compelled to get some of that these days. But, if the Republicans take over, then I would seriously looking into owning a firearm.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
79. Bravo!
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:57 PM
Apr 2012
I just didn't trust myself to have one -- too into drugs and drinking at the time, and too hot a temper!


You are a walking, talking example of responsibility.

IMHO, if you decide to buy a firearm for self defense you should be prepared to spend at least a few hundred on a reputable training and safety course, closer to $1K if you plan to carry. Just my opinion. It's a big responsibility.

gateley

(62,683 posts)
98. The very next day I called the police and asked "how do I get a gun, and where can I learn to use it
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:45 AM
Apr 2012

They recommended some place and I went to a class (for lack of a better word) and the instructor was awesome! I learned a lot from him and it's stuff I still remember to this day. I think he impressed the real responsibility of carrying a gun on me, which no doubt contributed to my decision to just pass at that time. It wasn't that he was trying to discourage anyone, just that we understood the reality of gun ownership -- and usage!

The thing I keep thinking about during this Zimmerman thing is that he told us you can't be cute and try to stop someone by taking out a knee or something, and if you kill someone you will most likely have to appear before a jury of your peers to convince them it WAS self defense. Not to mention that you will have to live with yourself knowing you took someone's, regardless of how justified. So you want to be sure shooting the person is the only way to save your own life. I think if he really felt threatened and he had no gun, he could have fought Trayvon and probably won (not that I believe he really felt his life was threatened). And where's the fucking jury?

It's people like him that give gun owners a bad name!

Thanks for your advice -- If I ever do decide to carry, I will take the responsibility very seriously.



digonswine

(1,485 posts)
8. A bit of a straw man-
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:20 PM
Apr 2012

any "normal" person sees the potential need for a firearm as self-defense. It is the way in which we decide the rules about firearms where many sensible folks disagree.

 

Politicalboi

(15,189 posts)
9. Defense in your own home
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:23 PM
Apr 2012

Is best. But now we ALL have to worry about the next Dirty Harry while driving or even going to (Dog forbid) church. Carrying guns EVERYWHERE is crazy. Conceal and carry should REQUIRE an experts shooting skills, gun safety, and gun security. How can anyone be sure they will not kill innocent people while firing their gun? WE have the right to walk the streets without fearing some asshole with a gun is going to shoot the wrong people just because it's "his" right to carry. I wouldn't care if they banned ALL guns. The idea was created to help people defend themselves from their government. Unless we have nukes or tanks in our yards, that reason is moot.

 

Politicalboi

(15,189 posts)
15. Thanks
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:40 PM
Apr 2012

I wish we could go back in time and take all the guns away. Learn to fight with your hands, or better yet get along with everybody. But that's not reality. I just think it's getting out of hand. Especially now that they are allowing guns at Florida at the GOP Hoopla. That is a disaster just waiting to happen in this environment. I personally believe people who feel the need to carry a gun all the time are either paranoid, or cowards.

On Edit: I do realize that not everybody who carries a gun is a coward. Some people live in a bad neighborhood, and feel secure with it. I cannot speak about that, because even though I myself have lived in bad neighborhoods, I have never been attacked. So I cannot put myself in their place. I'm just talking about the ones who just feel the world is out to get them, and they find their courage as long as they are carrying their gun.

spin

(17,493 posts)
47. For some reason many people can't seem to believe that bad things happen in churches ...
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 08:03 PM
Apr 2012

Perhaps they believe God protects churches. However...

Church Security Industry Springs Up Amid Attacks
By William Wan
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 30, 2009


In one hand, he held a Bible. In the other, tucked inside his coat pocket, he gripped a .38 caliber revolver.

He had come to People's Community Baptist Church in Silver Spring looking for his estranged wife. And once she arrived and began arguing with him outside, the Bible would be forgotten. The gun would be raised. And in a matter of seconds, the congregation's sense of sanctuary would be shattered.

What happened that Sunday morning at People's Church was just one in a string of fatal shootings at houses of worship across the country. The most high-profile incidents -- a Kansas abortion doctor gunned down in May, an Illinois pastor shot mid-sermon in March, a Tennessee church attacked during a children's play in 2008 -- have begun to alter the way many churches operate.

Sanctuaries that once left their doors open all day now employ armed guards, off-duty police officers, surveillance cameras and even undercover plainclothes guards who mingle with the congregation.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/29/AR2009092903766.html


While I agree that a person who carries a concealed firearm should have firearms safety training and education in the laws of his state that apply to concealed carry and the use of lethal force, I don't believe that carrying a firearm should require an individual to be an expert shooter. Most encounters which involve legitimate self defense will occur at extremely close range.

Self-Defense Accuracy
1/25/2011

***snip***

In most self-defense situations, an attacker is anywhere from point-blank range out to about 30 feet away. If attacked in your home, you’ll never shoot at a longer distance than the length of your largest room.

In that type of situation, you will not have time to line up your sights, take a deep breath, let half of it out and squeeze the trigger. In many ways, self-defense shooting is similar to shotgunning in that it is “flash shooting.” You lock your eyes on the target as you line up the gun and pull the trigger until you stop the attack.

This type of shooting does not lend itself to pretty groups on paper, but that’s not the point. The point of self-defense shooting is protecting life and limb. All you have to be able to do is consistently hit a 1-foot square representing center-of-mass on a target at a variety of ranges out to about 30 feet. That is self-defense accuracy.
http://www.americanrifleman.org/blogs/self-defense-accuracy/


Expert pistol shooters can shoot small groups at ranges of 25 yards to 50 yards and sometimes well beyond. It would be hard to explain why you had a good reason to fear for your life from an attacker who was 30 feet from you in an urban area.

I do believe that if you carry a concealed firearm it is an excellent idea to practice your shooting skills on a regular basis. While I enjoy target shooting with handguns, I always end my practice with some self defense shooting at close range. Much of such practice involves shooting without using the sights on the firearm which some call "point shooting". I also practice shooting while only holding the weapon with a strong hand and my offhand.

I don't believe that the Second Amendment was designed only to "help people defend themselves from their government."

Second Amendment to the United States Constitution

***snip***

Experience in America prior to the U.S. Constitution

In no particular order, early American settlers viewed the right to arms and/or the right to bear arms and/or state militias as important for one or more of these purposes:[25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32]

deterring tyrannical government;
repelling invasion;
suppressing insurrection;
facilitating a natural right of self-defense;
participating in law enforcement;
enabling the people to organize a militia system.

Which of these considerations they thought were most important, which of these considerations they were most alarmed about, and the extent to which each of these considerations ultimately found expression in the Second Amendment is disputed. Some of these purposes were explicitly mentioned in early state constitutions; for example, the Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776 asserted that, "the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state".[33]

***snip***

Although there is little doubt that the writers of the Second Amendment were heavily influenced by the English Bill of Rights, it is a matter of interpretation as to whether they were intent on preserving the power to regulate arms to the states over the federal government (as the English Parliament had reserved for itself against the monarch) or whether it was intent on creating a new right akin to the right of others written into the Constitution (as the Supreme Court recently decided). Some in the U.S. have preferred the "rights" argument arguing that the English Bill of Rights had granted a right. The need to have arms for self-defence was not really in question. Peoples all around the world since time immemorial had armed themselves for the protection of themselves and others, and as organized nations began to appear these arrangements had been extended to the protection of the state.[23] Without a regular army and police force (which in England was not established until 1829), it had been the duty of certain men to keep watch and ward at night and to confront and capture suspicious persons. Every subject had an obligation to protect the king's peace and assist in the suppression of riots.[24]emphasis added
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution


You have every right to support banning all firearms. Unfortunately unless a wizard appears who has invented a magic spell that will make all firearms disappear, your hope of achieving that goal in our nation at this time or in the year future are extremely slim.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
51. one point
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 08:15 PM
Apr 2012

some states ban firearms in houses of worship. I see it as a church/state issue. The law should not make a difference between a church and a store. Bars are a different issue because the compelling interest argument is more legitimate.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
61. Point taken
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 09:59 PM
Apr 2012

However, the nuke/tank argument is moot. Nukes and tanks are employed to annihilate rather than dominate. Firearms provide a means to restrain a government bent on domination. Nothing can really restrain a government sufficiently determined annihilated some of its citizens except the conscience of those charged with the act.

Callisto32

(2,997 posts)
96. Let's put those restrictions on the LEO's first, eh?
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:58 AM
Apr 2012

Since the numbers show they are more dangerous (and often far poorer shots) than "civilian" CCW holders.

Edit: I guess I'm a "far poorer speller." XD

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
101. "Unless we have nukes or tanks in our yards, that reason is moot."
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 12:10 PM
Apr 2012

I believe there are several countries today that would completely disagree with your assessment here.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
23. Sure it's valid for SD in a small percentage of situations. But why arm millions of citizens on the
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:48 PM
Apr 2012

streets for those few situations that might arise -- especially when they are so easy to avoid?

Truthfully, I don't think most people carry a gun in public primarily for self-defense. I think most who carry are just Zimmermans waiting for the "perfect storm."

 

Politicalboi

(15,189 posts)
37. Yup
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:57 PM
Apr 2012

That is what I feel too. Maybe even Hero. People who have experienced being attacked, I don't blame them. But they should make them take gun classes to be sure they aren't just shooting random, or lose their gun to someone else. If we are going to have to live with these crazy laws, they must have better registration, and yearly class requirements. We have it for cars, it's time to do the guns the same way. License with picture, tests, and skills, yearly registration fees. That would bring in a lot of revenue too.

And with these new laws of conceal carry, they also REQUIRE you carry insurance on your weapon. So if you shoot innocent people you better be able to afford their medical or death bills, and family compensation.

I think I'm on to something here. How does one begin to become a lobbyist? A gun insurance lobbyist. I think it would be a good law. So it would cost you to take your gun on the streets like you pay auto insurance. It would have to be a big policy if you take into a big city. Those who live in small towns, policy would be less like auto insurance. It's only fair for those who do not agree with any asshole can carry a gun law anywhere they want. Those taxes would help the community, and help those who have been affected. Cars kill and maim too, so that is why this should be handled the same way.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
63. re: "I think most who carry are just Zimmermans waiting for the "perfect storm.""
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:02 PM
Apr 2012

I disagree. Most folks I know that carry are very responsible. Most are also cops or ex-military.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
67. Most would have said same about Zimmerman before he murdered unarmed teenager.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:12 PM
Apr 2012

And you guys never consider the indirect effects of toting in public and indiscriminate gun accumulation.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
69. "...you guys never consider..."
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:18 PM
Apr 2012

I believe that is essential untrue. Most people I know that carry are very responsible.

Maybe you've had some bad experiences.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
72. The key point is your friends may be the gods of carriers, but all are not.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:38 PM
Apr 2012

When I used to carry a machete, I was responsible too. But I recognized people in Chuck E Cheeze never felt comfortable around me with my machete, even though strapped to my back. So I quit.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
75. re: "...your friends may be the gods of carriers, but all are not."
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:45 PM
Apr 2012

I never said "all" are responsible. My experience is that MOST are responsible. I don't, personally, know an irresponsible CC permittee but I accept that they are out there.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
113. He was permitted to legally make the purchase.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 04:26 PM
Apr 2012

I didn't claim otherwise. I said that an accurate characterization of him would be "nuts" not irresponsible.

 

rl6214

(8,142 posts)
88. Pretty broad brush again for your normal, baseless accusations.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:17 AM
Apr 2012

"Truthfully, I don't think most people carry a gun in public primarily for self-defense. I think most who carry are just Zimmermans waiting for the "perfect storm."

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
31. Great post. Looks like you're getting some sound replies.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:53 PM
Apr 2012

Most people see the validity, but not the need to carry in the streets.

Kali

(54,990 posts)
83. I can think of a couple of reasons
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 11:49 PM
Apr 2012
-never having been in a situation needing strong force to get out of

-being taught to fear guns (probably the biggest reason)

-related to being actively taught to fear them is the more passive plain old lack of experience with them.


Obviously many people manage to live their lives with out them. On the other hand plenty of people own, feel safer, possibly even enjoy (imagine!) shooting sports and never actually have need to use one for protection.

I suspect the over all use in situations of self defense is both rare (compared to the number of hostile encounters with other human beings) and extremely effective. As it should be.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
116. re: "being taught to fear guns"
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 04:43 PM
Apr 2012

Of everything I've read, that one worries me most.

Fear is a basic and powerful emotion. I suspect this often goes back to childhood.

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