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Thu Mar 8, 2012, 12:11 PM

 

12 states on the path to concealed carry with no permit.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-03-05/drivers-license-gun-permits/53391932/1?fb_ref=.T1iiFH_JoQE.like&fb_source=home_multiline


"Andrew Arulanandam, policy director for the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action, which supports these legislative efforts, argues that crime rates are low in four states — Alaska, Arizona, Vermont and Wyoming — that already allow residents to carry without a permit. "Our viewpoint is, a good person will always be a good person," he said. "They don't need a license to be a good person."

...

States that have been or are considering bills in current legislative sessions include Colorado, Iowa, Georgia, Kentucky, Maine, New Hampshire, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota and Virgina, according to the NRA.

South Dakota could be the fifth state to join the ranks of permit-less carry states. Lawmakers last week passed a measure allowing anyone 18 and older with a valid state driver's license to carry a concealed weapon, as long as they don't have a background that would otherwise prohibit them from getting a permit. The bill awaits action from Republican Gov. Dennis Daugaard."


I figured that as more and more states tracked concealed carry permit holders and noticed that the rate of revocation was near zero that they would figure out that there is not much point in tracking them. It's a big bureaucratic expense that achieves little.

If all of these states join the current five that don't require a permit for CCW, just about half the country will allow CCW without a permit.

38 replies, 4370 views

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Arrow 38 replies Author Time Post
Reply 12 states on the path to concealed carry with no permit. (Original post)
Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 OP
TheWraith Mar 2012 #1
snappyturtle Mar 2012 #2
Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #4
snappyturtle Mar 2012 #5
gejohnston Mar 2012 #8
snappyturtle Mar 2012 #9
GreenStormCloud Mar 2012 #20
Glassunion Mar 2012 #23
ileus Mar 2012 #25
Callisto32 Mar 2012 #26
Glassunion Mar 2012 #28
Simo 1939_1940 Mar 2012 #34
Glassunion Mar 2012 #37
Simo 1939_1940 Mar 2012 #38
rl6214 Mar 2012 #30
Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #10
snappyturtle Mar 2012 #11
Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #12
snappyturtle Mar 2012 #13
gejohnston Mar 2012 #14
Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #17
spin Mar 2012 #18
shadowrider Mar 2012 #24
PavePusher Mar 2012 #35
PavePusher Mar 2012 #16
bowens43 Mar 2012 #3
gejohnston Mar 2012 #7
safeinOhio Mar 2012 #6
ileus Mar 2012 #15
Clames Mar 2012 #19
GreenStormCloud Mar 2012 #21
gejohnston Mar 2012 #22
Callisto32 Mar 2012 #27
safeinOhio Mar 2012 #33
pipoman Mar 2012 #36
mvccd1000 Mar 2012 #29
Glassunion Mar 2012 #31
safeinOhio Mar 2012 #32

Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 12:14 PM

1. There's a big gap between a bill being considered, and having a real chance to pass. nt

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 12:14 PM

2. I don't get it. Seems like a very dangerous path is being set up with CCW. nt

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 12:24 PM

4. How so?

 

How so? CCW permit holders are many times less likely to be involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime, than anyone else you might encounter in public.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #4)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 01:21 PM

5. I'm responding to the part that states: NO permit. nt

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #5)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 02:01 PM

8. Vermont has had no problems since 1790

and Wyoming since 1995. Of course, these are rural states where gun ownership is common and you are either in the sticks or Mayberry.
In suburbs where people don't know how to load a revolver, you may have a point.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #8)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 02:12 PM

9. Trust me I am not anti-gun. There have been times I would have

liked to have had a small revolver tucked inside my purse! However with all the tension today, adding guns to the mix seems a bit dangerous. imho

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 05:50 PM

20. Never carry a gun in your purse.

Have it somewhere on your body or in a pocket.

If you need it you will likely need it very quickly and will not have time to dig around in the purse to find it.

A purse can be snatched from you.

There are specially made fanny packs that are also great for carrying a gun.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #20)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 06:59 PM

23. I disagree a little.

There is no digging in a purse if it has a pocket specifically designated for a firearm. Some Galco purses are designed with holsters in them to make the draw simple and keep the firearm positioned inside the purse. Also there are holsters specifically designed to be placed into a purse to hold the firearm in a specific position and orientation inside the purse.

Basic self defense teaches how to retain your purse. If you also train with your purse it should not be an issue.

You are correct however that if it is in a purse, you could end up separated from it.

My wife bought this for herself a few weeks ago. That is a Tritium sight. It's a pisser to shoot. She keeps it in a Galco pocket holster in her front pocket. Even with the little skinny jeans she wears, you cannot even make out the outline of it.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #23)

Fri Mar 9, 2012, 09:42 AM

25. what is that? 22 or 22 mag

Looks really well made....night sights....no defensive gun should be without them.

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Response to ileus (Reply #25)

Fri Mar 9, 2012, 10:01 AM

28. It's the North American Arms Pug

.22 mag. That magnum round punches as hard as a .380.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #28)

Sat Mar 10, 2012, 01:30 AM

34. How's the trigger pull? NT

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Response to Simo 1939_1940 (Reply #34)

Sat Mar 10, 2012, 10:40 PM

37. Light'ish

Single action only.

About a 4lb trigger.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 11, 2012, 03:14 AM

38. Cool little revolver!! NT

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #20)

Fri Mar 9, 2012, 12:33 PM

30. I carry my CCW in a fanny pack mae just for concealed carry.

 

It is made so you can quickly rip it open to easily remove your gun. Never had to do it yet and really hope I never have to

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #5)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 02:17 PM

10. But that's the thing - the permit is a waste of time for these people.

 

That's the thing: CCW permit holders are so infrequently involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime, that it's a waste of time to issue permits to them.

That's why these states are ditching the requirement. It's a waste of resources to track people who statistically are hardly ever involved in crime.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 02:19 PM

11. What about the ones who now will tote a gun and didn't in the past

because of the permit requirement? Are you saying these folks will be as reliable as the past permit holders?

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #11)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 02:47 PM

12. People who couldn't get a permit won't be affected one way or the other.

 

What about the ones who now will tote a gun and didn't in the past because of the permit requirement? Are you saying these folks will be as reliable as the past permit holders?

Bear in mind, you can only carry a firearm legally without a permit if you are legally not prohibited from owning a firearm to begin with.

The permit requirement did not stop bad people from carrying guns. It just pointed out who the hyper-law-abiding people were who were willing to go to the trouble and expense of obtaining a permit.

Dropping the permit requirement won't change the number of bad people who carry concealed firearms. They were carrying all along anyway and it's just as illegal now as it was before.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #12)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 03:15 PM

13. Thank you for taking the time to clarify this more for me.

I think I will assume that anyone I meet could be armed and hopefully I don't do anything that is met with a gun as the answer!

I guess what's bothering me is of a little deeper concern and that's why do people feel the need to be armed in the first place? I would guess, fear.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #13)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 03:30 PM

14. what do you fear?

I am guessing you don't live in Vermont. If you do, you don't know Vermont's gun laws. Even there I doubt more than four or five percent actually do.
People "feel the need" or prefer not to for many number of reasons, since I don't know their situations I have no business to judge one way or anther. Some really do have a legitimate threat. I only know that my decision works for me at the moment.
How are they a threat to you? A firearm does not control the possessor's mind.
Simply because someone has a gun does not make them a threat. Simply because someone does not have a gun does not make them safe. In all US violent crimes, only about 20 percent or less of the bad guys have a gun.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #13)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 04:23 PM

17. My pleasure.

 

I think I will assume that anyone I meet could be armed and hopefully I don't do anything that is met with a gun as the answer!

You are right that anyone you meet could be armed. But as for CCW permit holders (or people who would have gotten one when they were required), you have little to fear. Not all states provide the statistics, but for the ones that do, the picture is quite clear: CCW permit holders are hyper-law-abiding people. They are less likely to be involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime, than anyone else you might encounter in public. They also are less likely to cause collateral damage in a shootout than even the police.

So in reality, you would be safer surrounded by only concealed carry permit holders rather than a random selection of the public at large.

I guess what's bothering me is of a little deeper concern and that's why do people feel the need to be armed in the first place? I would guess, fear.

I don't carry a concealed weapon. It's simply too much of a hassle and I don't feel that I will need one. But if I were a pizza delivery driver, or a psychiatrist, or a manager who closed up shop, or a taxi driver, or a paramedic, or other dangerous occupation, I absolutely would carry one.

People carry firearms for a variety of reasons, but the common motivating factor is to be prepared in case of emergency. In this regard, carrying a firearm is no different than carrying a spare tire in your vehicle, or wearing a seat belt. Sure, "fear" drives us to do these things, but it's not a pathological fear. It's simply a prudent recognition of the fact that it costs little to be prepared and it costs much to be unprepared.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #13)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 05:24 PM

18. Fear is not always the driver for those who chose to carry concealed ...

Some people just like being prepared.

While I have never been in a serious accident in 50 years, I still wear a seat belt. All the accidents that I have had when I was driving involved people running into the rear end of my vehicle at fairly low speed. Even when not driving, I have never been in an accident where someone went to a hospital. That in no way means that one will not happen tomorrow, but I don't live in fear that it will.

No home that I was living in ever had a fire, but I have a fire extinguisher ten feet from where I am sitting. My house has numerous fire alarms.

I have been shooting handguns for at least 40 years. I have a license to carry one concealed but I do not expect to ever have to use it for legitimate self defense and I pray that I never will. The revolver I carry is an extremely light .38 caliber and I simply grab it and its holster and slide both into my pants pocket when I leave the house.

I use commonsense and practice something called "situational awareness" when out and about. I learned how to do this many years ago in martial arts training. Therefore, I do not walk down dark streets with a cell phone glued to my ear. I do not visit outdoor ATMs at 2 am. If I pull into a parking lot and see a bunch of suspicious people hanging around, I go to another store. I make eye contact with people on the street. I look alert.

I don't recommend that everyone run out and get a gun. Firearms can be lethal and owning one can lead to a tragedy. My main concern with not requiring a license to carry a firearm is that people with little or no experience with handguns and firearm safety may decide to "pack heat" and may injure themselves or others accidentally. Most states require an individual to attend a firearm training course in order to get a carry permit. To me that is a good idea. Even so, the decision to own or carry a firearm can still lead to a tragedy. All too often even a person with good training who is abusing alcohol can have a tragic accident. Once again, firearms are not for everybody and you have to realize that you may well regret your decision to own one.

Simply practicing situational awareness is probably all a person has to do to be reasonably safe. It may also be a good idea to carry a good pepper spray just in case.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #13)

Fri Mar 9, 2012, 06:34 AM

24. Legal gun owners are extremely polite and go far out of their way to avoid conflict

You see, they understand what a grave responsibility it is to own and carry. It's used only as a last resort against those who represent a direct and imminent threat to their safety.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #13)

Sat Mar 10, 2012, 07:45 AM

35. IIRC, there are some 1 million violent crimes per year.

 

It makes sense to have some preparation for such an occurance. What those preparations are varies by individual and circumstances, but I have no moral standing to limit someone else if I'm not going to be there to help them in an emergency.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #5)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 04:18 PM

16. May I see your First, Fourth, Thirteenth and Twenty-Fourth Amendment Permits?

 

Please?

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 12:17 PM

3. the gun fanatics and the religious fanatics are teaming up

to turn the US into Afghanistan.....

welcome to the third world

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Response to bowens43 (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 01:40 PM

7. look up the definiton of 3rd world

Reaganomics has been doing that for a long time.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 01:35 PM

6. Alaska and Arizona?

"Andrew Arulanandam, policy director for the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action, which supports these legislative efforts, argues that crime rates are low in four states — Alaska, Arizona, Vermont and Wyoming — that already allow residents to carry without a permit. "Our viewpoint is, a good person will always be a good person," he said. "They don't need a license to be a good person."


http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/04/05/most-dangerous-states-crime-rankings-for-2010/

Most dangerous states, by crime, to live in..... crimes/100,000
No. 9: ARIZONA
Assault: 21
Burglary: 15
Murder: 13
Motor Vehicle Theft: 2
Rape: 39
Robbery: 15


No. 14: ALASKA
Assault: 3
Burglary: 39
Murder: 28
Motor Vehicle Theft: 29
Rape: 1

One is in the top 10% and the other is in the top 20%.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #6)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 04:07 PM

15. Looks like those two states are giving citizens better tools to deal with crime.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #6)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 05:31 PM

19. Is that your math?

 

One is in the top 10% and the other is in the top 20%.



You might want to blow the dust off your calculator....

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #6)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 05:55 PM

21. Now take a look at DC and Puerto Rico. Also at El Paso, TX.

DC & PR have super strict gun laws and the highest crime rates in the nation.

El Paso, TX has more guns than people and had only three (3) murders in all of 2010.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #21)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 06:56 PM

22. while you are at it

El Paso's murder rate was 0.8/100K making it the safest in the US
on the other hand,
Ciudad Juárez 229
to explode a few heads
Thunder Bay, Ontario 4.2
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan 3.7
Regina, Manatoba 3.7
Vancouver, BC 1.5

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #6)

Fri Mar 9, 2012, 10:00 AM

27. HINT:

10% of 50 is....5.

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Response to Callisto32 (Reply #27)

Fri Mar 9, 2012, 07:16 PM

33. Yes I screwed that up. But the idea stays the same

out of 50 states Alaska, which the NRA spokesperson claims is a safe place has 36 states that are safer. Arizona, which the NRA also claims is safe has 41 states out of 50 that are safer.
I'm more than happy to have my mistakes pointed out and I gladly take credit for my mistakes. On the other hand, it'd be nice for those that point out and question my words to also be as diligent with the NRA statement in the original post so as not to be viewed as a hypocrite.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #33)

Sat Mar 10, 2012, 07:59 AM

36. I would be interested how those numbers changed

if at all with the enactment of unpermitted concealed carry..

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #6)

Fri Mar 9, 2012, 11:17 AM

29. I'm curious about those rankings

When I followed the link in your linked article to the source for the "CQ Press Rankings," it came up as page not found.

I remember making a comment not long ago (maybe on DU2?) pointing out that Arizona and Illinois sat right next to each other on the FBI violent crime rankings.

Interesting, given that Illinois is the only state in the union to prohibit concealed carry, while Arizona doesn't even recognize it as a legal distinction any more. Apparently the legality of carrying a firearm is not a huge predictor of where your state will sit in the violent crime rankings.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #6)

Fri Mar 9, 2012, 06:31 PM

31. Where did you get the part where it says:

"crimes/100,000"

It mentions no such thing in the article. In fact if what you stated were factual, the list should be ordered in the opposite direction.

I'd like to know where your "information" came from.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #31)

Fri Mar 9, 2012, 07:08 PM

32. Try this one for 2000

the one i gave was for 2010. not much change.

interesting. Most dangerous is New Mexico?

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