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flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
Sat Dec 31, 2016, 04:08 PM Dec 2016

Report: 86 people carrying fake or toy guns killed by police in 2 years

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-86-carrying-fake-or-toy-guns-killed-by-police-in-2-years/

Efforts to mandate that the realistic appearance of some of the guns be altered have been stymied from gunmakers and gun rights groups such as the National Rifle Association, the paper reports.


I'm posting this here to ask a simple question of the experts.

Why is the NRA (and Gun Owners of America from another article) opposed to making TOY guns look like TOY guns?
68 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Report: 86 people carrying fake or toy guns killed by police in 2 years (Original Post) flamin lib Dec 2016 OP
You would have to ask the NRA sarisataka Dec 2016 #1
Are they opposed? ileus Dec 2016 #2
I have so many of the gungeoneers on ignore I have log out to see them. flamin lib Dec 2016 #3
That is a decent article. ManiacJoe Jan 2017 #17
What makes you think that someone, who can't accept a right... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2017 #18
Well, you know. One more hit with Ben's 2x4 might do the trick. ManiacJoe Jan 2017 #21
You are placing people on "Ignore" ... Straw Man Jan 2017 #24
Heh. Eleanors38 Jan 2017 #28
See post #20 discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2017 #30
Many gun people have you on "ignore". oneshooter Jan 2017 #43
Don't recall saying that, maybe I did but don't recall. flamin lib Jan 2017 #44
I have a different Question: Why is it OK to kill people with Toy Guns if we have RKBA? mackdaddy Dec 2016 #4
No, I'm asking the right question. Thanks for playing. flamin lib Dec 2016 #5
..... justhanginon Dec 2016 #6
Those folks need a toy NRA discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2016 #7
Because most of the replica firearms being discussed here aren't toys. benEzra Dec 2016 #8
At least 13 were replicas and 16 were airsoft. flamin lib Dec 2016 #9
The article *you* quoted says "air guns", not just toys. benEzra Dec 2016 #10
No, it is NOT the case. flamin lib Dec 2016 #11
Your own article puts BB and pellet weapons at the top of the list. benEzra Dec 2016 #12
I ask one more time flamin lib Dec 2016 #13
Pellet guns are not toys - they are real weapons hack89 Jan 2017 #23
He doesn't want to listen citood Jan 2017 #51
They don't. That's *ALREADY* the law, since 1988 (15 U.S. Code 5001). benEzra Jan 2017 #34
Soooooo flamin lib Jan 2017 #35
They are marketed and sold as theatrical props hack89 Jan 2017 #38
which begs the question gejohnston Jan 2017 #39
Those aren't toys. Your link has law-enforcement training replicas, and benEzra Jan 2017 #60
Tamir Rice. nt flamin lib Jan 2017 #61
Who was holding an Airsoft that someone else had painted to look real. benEzra Jan 2017 #62
John Crawford nt flamin lib Jan 2017 #63
Another fail- Crawford was handling a pellet/BB gun, which was an actual weapon- not a toy friendly_iconoclast Jan 2017 #64
Who was shot when a shopper who was either racist, delusional, or anti-gun trolled 911... benEzra Jan 2017 #66
Why haven't I heard from our resident NRA expert and supporter/promoter, Kang Colby. flamin lib Dec 2016 #14
The devil is in the details. Straw Man Jan 2017 #22
Because it's already federal law. Kang Colby Jan 2017 #26
Thanks for the reply and glad you had a wonderful weekend. flamin lib Jan 2017 #36
You make some fair points. Kang Colby Jan 2017 #37
So it's the victim's fault? These are all crimes worthy of capital punishment? flamin lib Jan 2017 #40
Sooo, the civilian weapons yagotme Jan 2017 #41
Lethality is more than ballistics. flamin lib Jan 2017 #42
My post was in reply to yours, yagotme Jan 2017 #45
Can you shoot that fast? flamin lib Jan 2017 #46
No, not quite, but if someone wanted to practice, yagotme Jan 2017 #47
One more time, flamin lib Jan 2017 #48
And you claim I throw insults? n/t oneshooter Jan 2017 #49
How many hours do I get, like in FL? yagotme Jan 2017 #50
It is idiocy to maintain a man with a revolver can wound or kill 100 people flamin lib Jan 2017 #52
Are you always this condescending yagotme Jan 2017 #53
This is the same "expert" who claimed the first production run of Mosin Nagant rifles... Marengo Jan 2017 #54
I know, have been watching his modus operandi yagotme Jan 2017 #55
Naa, I save condescension for the guy who flamin lib Jan 2017 #56
Oh my. yagotme Jan 2017 #57
"Silencers...really don't silence and only serve the purpose of making your gun longer" friendly_iconoclast Jan 2017 #65
So, why all the expense of putting something yagotme Jan 2017 #68
And yet every year, ten or fifteen times as many people are murdered with revolvers benEzra Jan 2017 #67
The best reason that I can think of is... ToolMaker Jan 2017 #15
I'll answer your question if you answer mine discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2017 #16
this reply is for discntnt_irny_srcsm because DU won't let me post replyies to flamin lib Jan 2017 #19
Cool & Happy New Year discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2017 #20
Beginning to sound like a very proper British comedy. Eleanors38 Jan 2017 #29
Apparently I was temporarily unigored via manual override... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2017 #58
Confusion to the enemy! Eleanors38 Jan 2017 #59
Only thing I come up with is it's a pushback SQUEE Jan 2017 #25
Well, reading both the CBS & the mammoth WaPo screed, little about the NRA.. Eleanors38 Jan 2017 #27
If I recall, in IL, yagotme Jan 2017 #31
That doesn't surprise me. I attempted a discussion with a gun prohibitionist Eleanors38 Jan 2017 #32
Bayonets, pikes, swords yagotme Jan 2017 #33

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
3. I have so many of the gungeoneers on ignore I have log out to see them.
Sat Dec 31, 2016, 04:45 PM
Dec 2016

This one's for Ileus, with a thank you for validating my decision for placing you on ignore.

Gun rights groups, including Gun Owners of America, based in Virginia, have lobbied against laws that seek to alter air guns to make them distinguishable from firearms.

Michael E. Hammond, a legal adviser to the pro gun group said the alterations never seem to be enough for those who dislike guns. "It all arises out of this general animus and media-fed fear of anything that has to do with guns," Hammond said.

The NRA declined to comment.

http://investigativereportingworkshop.org/investigations/toy-guns/story/real-looking-toys-lead-police-shootings/

All of the manufacturers of guns involved in look alike toys also refused to comment to the authors of the

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)
17. That is a decent article.
Sun Jan 1, 2017, 09:11 AM
Jan 2017

It does a pretty good job of answering your question.

As repeatedly pointed out below, most of what you are referring to as a "toy gun" is not actually a toy gun.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
18. What makes you think that someone, who can't accept a right...
Sun Jan 1, 2017, 11:27 AM
Jan 2017

...to the most efficient tool for self-defense, can differentiate between a toy and a gun?

Straw Man

(6,613 posts)
24. You are placing people on "Ignore" ...
Mon Jan 2, 2017, 03:25 AM
Jan 2017

... and then logging out to see their posts so that you can respond? Perhaps you should ponder the meaning of "ignore."

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
30. See post #20
Mon Jan 2, 2017, 04:46 PM
Jan 2017

BTW I use ignore also but I use the old fashioned one. I just don't read what I don't want to read.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
43. Many gun people have you on "ignore".
Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:04 PM
Jan 2017

I believe that you have stated several times that you would never post here again.

I believe you are a typical gun grabber. Not too good on your word.

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
44. Don't recall saying that, maybe I did but don't recall.
Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:34 PM
Jan 2017

I recall saying I wonder why I bother because so many 'typical gun humpers' suffer so badly from cranial rectal inversion.

Because you have nothing to add but insult you too are now on my ignore list.

mackdaddy

(1,520 posts)
4. I have a different Question: Why is it OK to kill people with Toy Guns if we have RKBA?
Sat Dec 31, 2016, 04:51 PM
Dec 2016

Many states such as Ohio even have "Open Carry" laws. At least two occurrences, the Man who had picked up a BB gun in the Dayton area Walmart, and the Boy in the park in Cleveland were killed by Police seconds after the Police came up behind them.

And how many people have been killed because the Police saw something in the citizens hand that turned out to be a cell phone or a wallet?

Maybe you are asking the wrong question?

(I would add that many of these now dead people may have had a slightly darker skin color.)

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
7. Those folks need a toy NRA
Sat Dec 31, 2016, 06:22 PM
Dec 2016

Seriously though the article doesn't say why.
Perhaps you could research that issue and get back to us. You seem more in touch with the NRA than I am.

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
8. Because most of the replica firearms being discussed here aren't toys.
Sat Dec 31, 2016, 07:04 PM
Dec 2016

Actual *toys* do generally look very un-firearmlike, unless you pair them with a $1.99 can of black spray paint, as anyone who intends to carry one to use in a crime already does. And it's hard to make a rational case that armed robbers should be discouraged from using painted toys, as opposed to actual weapons.

Airsoft replicas, as opposed to toys, are intended to replicate the weight/feel/function of an actual firearm for safe indoor training in lieu of actual guns.

BB guns and pellet rifles are actual *weapons*, just not firearms, and are generally treated like weapons, even though the media often conflates them with toys. They are not.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/340195/benjamin-armada-magpul-edition-pcp-air-rifle-22-caliber-pellet-black-synthetic-stock-matte-barrel-with-4-16x-56mm-scope-matte-and-bipod

That's a .22 with a muzzle velocity of 1000 ft/sec, comparable to a short-case rimfire firearm.

This one is a .50, suitable for hunting hogs and coyotes:

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Dragon_Claw_Dual_Tank_Air_Rifle/2500

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
9. At least 13 were replicas and 16 were airsoft.
Sat Dec 31, 2016, 07:52 PM
Dec 2016

Airsoft is intended to be non-lethal. At 400fps and firing a 6mm plastic ball I doubt that it can be made to be lethal. It is designed to be used in games shooting at other gamesters. It is a fucking toy. And I didn't see a single .50 cal or 9mm or any kind of break barrel in the mix.

Deflect much?



I asked a serious question of people who claim to be experts why pro gun organizations would oppose making non-lethal toys look like non-lethal toys instead of near exact copies of real firearms. Care to weigh in on that or ya' just gonna follow the gunner dogma of deflect, deny, attack and second amendment?

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
10. The article *you* quoted says "air guns", not just toys.
Sat Dec 31, 2016, 08:47 PM
Dec 2016
Gun rights groups, including Gun Owners of America, based in Virginia, have lobbied against laws that seek to alter air guns to make them distinguishable from firearms.


Making toys intended for children to look like toys intended for children is pretty much already the case.

But requiring "air guns" to look like toys would encompass not just toys intended for children, but also Airsoft replicas intended for adults (including serious Airsoft training tools), and metal-projectile air weapons like BB guns, pellet guns, and PCA's. And from the gun control lobby's standpoint, that is a feature, not a bug, since airguns are a gateway to ownership and use of real guns.

I am looking into getting an Airsoft version of my competition rifle, for training purposes. If it doesn't handle like the real thing, it is useless for that purpose, and I'd certainly oppose any law requiring adult Airsoft guns to look juvenile. Particularly since any such law would be moot unless accompanied by strict spray-paint-can control.

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
11. No, it is NOT the case.
Sat Dec 31, 2016, 09:12 PM
Dec 2016

I ask yet again, for what reason would gun advocacy groups oppose making non lethal toys not look like non lethal toys.

Answer the damn question.

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
12. Your own article puts BB and pellet weapons at the top of the list.
Sat Dec 31, 2016, 09:21 PM
Dec 2016
Your own article puts BB and pellet weapons at the top of the list, accounting for 53 of the deaths you cite. Airsoft replicas and nonfunctional replicas accounted for 16 and 13, respectively. "Toys" would be a small subset of the latter two. And all but 4 of the deaths were *adults*.

Show me the draft legislation that exempts airguns and adult Airsoft replicas as "not toys", then? Because everything I've seen would mandate special coloration/design for all Airsoft (whether child's toy or not) and often BB and pellet guns as well.

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
13. I ask one more time
Sat Dec 31, 2016, 10:27 PM
Dec 2016

why do gun advocacy groups oppose making toy guns distinguishable from real guns.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
23. Pellet guns are not toys - they are real weapons
Sun Jan 1, 2017, 09:57 PM
Jan 2017

Why don't you actually listen for the first time instead of repeatedly asking the same inane question again. Not all airguns are children's toys.

citood

(550 posts)
51. He doesn't want to listen
Thu Jan 5, 2017, 09:44 PM
Jan 2017

This is a masturbatory exercise for him...ie he enjoys being obtuse.

As an aside, if somebody put a fucking pellet gun to my head, I wouldn't think it was a toy.

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
34. They don't. That's *ALREADY* the law, since 1988 (15 U.S. Code 5001).
Mon Jan 2, 2017, 10:17 PM
Jan 2017
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/5001

15 U.S. Code § 5001 - Penalties for entering into commerce of imitation firearms

Current through Pub. L. 114-38. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)

(a) Acts prohibited

It shall be unlawful for any person to manufacture, enter into commerce, ship, transport, or receive any toy, look-alike, or imitation firearm unless such firearm contains, or has affixed to it, a marking approved by the Secretary of Commerce, as provided in subsection (b).

(b) Distinctive marking or device; exception; waiver; adjustments and changes

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2) or (3), each toy, look-alike, or imitation firearm shall have as an integral part, permanently affixed, a blaze orange plug inserted in the barrel of such toy, look-alike, or imitation firearm. Such plug shall be recessed no more than 6 millimeters from the muzzle end of the barrel of such firearm.

(2) The Secretary of Commerce may provide for an alternate marking or device for any toy, look-alike, or imitation firearm not capable of being marked as provided in paragraph (1) and may waive the requirement of any such marking or device for any toy, look-alike, or imitation firearm that will only be used in the theatrical, movie or television industry.

(3) The Secretary is authorized to make adjustments and changes in the marking system provided for by this section, after consulting with interested persons.

(c) “Look-alike firearm” defined

For purposes of this section, the term “look-alike firearm” means any imitation of any original firearm which was manufactured, designed, and produced since 1898, including and limited to toy guns, water guns, replica nonguns, and air-soft guns firing nonmetallic projectiles. Such term does not include any look-alike, nonfiring, collector replica of an antique firearm developed prior to 1898, or traditional B–B, paint-ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of air pressure.

(d) Study and report

The Director of the Bureau of Justice Statistics is authorized and directed to conduct a study of the criminal misuse of toy, look-alike and imitation firearms, including studying police reports of such incidences and shall report on such incidences relative to marked and unmarked firearms.
(c) [1] Technical evaluation of marking systems

The Director of [2] National Institute of Justice is authorized and directed to conduct a technical evaluation of the marking systems provided for in subsection (b) to determine their effectiveness in police combat situations. The Director shall begin the study within 3 months after November 5, 1988, and such study shall be completed within 9 months after November 5, 1988.

(f) Effective date

This section shall become effective on the date 6 months after November 5, 1988, and shall apply to toy, look-alike, and imitation firearms manufactured or entered into commerce after November 5, 1988.

(g) Preemption of State or local laws or ordinances; exceptionsThe provisions of this section shall supersede any provision of State or local laws or ordinances which provide for markings or identification inconsistent with provisions of this section provided that no State shall—

(i) prohibit the sale or manufacture of any look-alike, nonfiring, collector replica of an antique firearm developed prior to 1898, or

(ii) prohibit the sale (other than prohibiting the sale to minors) of traditional B–B, paint ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of air pressure.

(Pub. L. 100–615, § 4, Nov. 5, 1988, 102 Stat. 3190.)


What you're advocating is to take the rules for toys and apply them to *non* toys, e.g. BB guns, collector's replicas, and Airsoft replicas, by repealing the exemption for non-toys in 15 U.S. Code § 5001(c). Talking about "toy guns" when talking about expanding the toy rules to non-toys is a bad-faith bait and switch.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
38. They are marketed and sold as theatrical props
Wed Jan 4, 2017, 10:49 AM
Jan 2017

in accordance with the law. Looks like an area of the law that could be tightened.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
39. which begs the question
Wed Jan 4, 2017, 11:07 AM
Jan 2017

two theatre houses in DC have FFLs to receive props. If they are going through the hassle.......
I see getting a replica of a classic rifle for the study to hang in the study or den (not of a fan of the term "man cave&quot or over the fireplace, but a fake Glock 19? No.

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
60. Those aren't toys. Your link has law-enforcement training replicas, and
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 02:30 PM
Jan 2017

replicas made for collectors (popular in Japan and a handful of other nations where collecting actual firearms is hard), and inexpensive movie props (much cheaper than blank-firing guns, and you can dub in muzzle flashes in post-processing).

15 USC 5001 covers all toys, but exempts both non-toys (like training replicas and collectibles) and actual weapons (e.g. airguns).

And yes, a Daisy Red Ryder is not a toy; it is a .177 caliber air rifle firing a projectile capable of causing serious injury if misused. They are trainers for real guns, and should be treated the respect afforded real guns, even if the consequences of an accident are sublethal. My son had one when he was younger, and I kept it in the safe and ensured he followed the Four Rules as if it were a .22.

As to *criminals* painting toys to look real or buying realistic looking replicas in order to carry out crimes, we could bring our murder rate down if we convinced more criminals to use nonfiring replicas, no? Yes, it presents an occupational hazard that the criminal using one for robberies might get himself shot in the belief that it was real, but if a career criminal is going to commit armed robbery then I'd much rather they do it with a fake gun than with a knife or an actual firearm. Not many innocent people a year are murdered with nonfiring replicas or Airsofts, and even the suicides-by-cop via replicas are a tiny fraction of suicides by firearms, falls, hanging, or blades, no?

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
62. Who was holding an Airsoft that someone else had painted to look real.
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 02:38 PM
Jan 2017

The people who called 911 told dispatch it was likely fake, but that info wasn't passed to the responding officers. The officer who shot the child had previously been "deemed an emotionally unstable recruit and unfit for duty", says Wikipedia, and fired two seconds after arriving on-scene.

So, no, that case doesn't demonstrate that Red Ryders and other .177 air weapons, adult training replicas, and movie props need to be made to look like toys.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
64. Another fail- Crawford was handling a pellet/BB gun, which was an actual weapon- not a toy
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 07:33 PM
Jan 2017

Some fuckwit Mall-Wart employee left them out in public reach

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
66. Who was shot when a shopper who was either racist, delusional, or anti-gun trolled 911...
Sun Jan 8, 2017, 01:34 PM
Jan 2017

and said that Crawford was loading a rifle with ammunition, was pointing a gun at children, and was about to commit a robbery or mass shooting. Even though from the 911 transcript synced with the store surveillance video, it is clear the caller knew or should have known that this wasn't true.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/30/opinion/williams-crawford-walmart-killing/index.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/25/mass-shooting-hysteria-and-the-death-of-john-crawford/?utm_term=.f14e4882ce3a

Going on the false information provided to them, the police shot him as soon as they rounded a distant corner.

If you look at that surveillance video, the air rifle (not a toy, an actual Crossman MK-177 pellet rifle, .177 caliber) was on the opposite side of Crawford from the officer(s) who shot him (he was holding it by his right side, and they shot him from his left side), so they weren't going off what they saw in any case; they were going off what the 911 caller falsely told them. So even if you passed a law requiring actual pellet rifles to have orange tips as if they were toys, it wouldn't have affected this tragedy, either.

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
14. Why haven't I heard from our resident NRA expert and supporter/promoter, Kang Colby.
Sat Dec 31, 2016, 10:46 PM
Dec 2016

I figure if anyone can explain why the NRA (and other groups) oppose making toy guns (and to be painfully over exacting, other non lethal gun like devices) easily distinguishable from real guns.

Straw Man

(6,613 posts)
22. The devil is in the details.
Sun Jan 1, 2017, 08:52 PM
Jan 2017
I figure if anyone can explain why the NRA (and other groups) oppose making toy guns (and to be painfully over exacting, other non lethal gun like devices) easily distinguishable from real guns.

There is a big difference between "toy guns" and "other non lethal gun like devices." Lumping them together is erroneous and dangerous. Air guns can maim and in some cases even kill. They are dangerous. Why should they be marked to indicate that they're not?
 

Kang Colby

(1,941 posts)
26. Because it's already federal law.
Mon Jan 2, 2017, 01:06 PM
Jan 2017

Last edited Mon Jan 2, 2017, 11:31 PM - Edit history (1)

I have to apologize for the delayed response. I was quite fortunate to spend the last few days ringing in the New Year with friends and family out of state. It was a good time. I look forward to a happy and successful 2017, and wish the same to you..flamin'. While I disagree with the content of almost every post you make, I do enjoy reading your thoughtful input.

I'll caveat this with I don't/can't speak for the NRA or any other group. I speak for Kang Colby and that's it. My opinions are my own and aren't necessarily shared by anyone else.

You know, I often post about how bleak things were for us pro-rights guys and gals for decades, stretching back to the late 1960s and peaking in the early 2000s when our ship finally started to turn. I'm not going to rehash all of that today. But the "toy gun" debate is surely an oldie but goodie. When discussions of toy gun legislation started to make headlines, many of us pro-rights folks were dealing with GCA '68 pre-FOPA, talks of AWBs, the impending Brady Act which was first proposed in 1987 before passing in the 90s, machine gun bans, discussion of national handgun bans, George H.W. Bush's import ban on a multitude of semi-automatic rifles. Needless to say, there wasn't much time in the day to fret about 6mm orange tips on toy guns, including airsoft.

Going back to this country's founding, toy guns were almost always intended to look like real firearms. Cast iron, wood, springs, and advertising in comic books and on the radio lauding the toy guns for looking "just like a real gun". Toy guns were intended to look real. Some of the best examples come from the 1960s, but I like the 1920s-late 50s era toy guns, specifically cap guns.

While gun controllers have been fiddling with toy gun restrictions dating back over sixty years, the major piece of federal legislation came in 1988 and was signed by Ronald Reagan, and sponsored by (at the time) NRA ally, Bob Dole. Bob originally proposed the idea as part of the Undetectable Firearms Act but it was later added to the Federal Energy Management Act of 1988 as an amendment requiring orange tips. To my knowledge, no major firearm lobbying organization opposed the amendment.

The law applies to: "look-alike firearms" meaning any imitation of any original firearm which was manufactured, designed, and produced since 1898, including and limited to toy guns, water guns, replica nonguns, and air-soft guns firing nonmetallic projectiles. Such term does not include any look-alike, nonfiring, collector replica of an antique firearm developed prior to 1898, or traditional B-B, paint-ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of air pressure.

So, you are probably wondering where does that leave air guns that expel metallic objects and paint balls. Those aren't toys. BB/pellet guns can cause serious injury or death if misused. NSSF and NRA offered input and opposition on state level legislation mandating color schemes for BB/pellet guns due to potential public safety issues. The concern being that coloring BB guns like toys may inadvertently signify a lack of harm associated with misuse. In any event, Bob Dole's amendment required a study be conducted on the efficacy of orange tips which found that law enforcement failed to recognize the blaze orange identifiers 96% of the time. In other words, this is just a feel good idea with little public safety merit.

Per NSSF, coloring requirements on BB/pellet guns may do more harm than good:


If it is required by statute to color them like toys,
as proposed in SB 798, a dangerous risk of injury will
be created because users could view them as toys and
treat them accordingly. In fact, SB 798 could
unintentionally promote the use of BB devices as if
they are toys.


http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/bill/sen/sb_0751-0800/sb_798_cfa_20110427_154959_sen_comm.html

NRA's statement on the matter:
Senate Bill 798, air gun, airsoft and BB gun sales ban legislation, also introduced by Senator De León, would treat air guns and BB guns the same as a toy gun by requiring the entire exterior surface of the device to be white, bright red, bright orange, bright yellow, bright green, bright blue, bright pink, or bright purple as the predominate color. Air gun and BB guns are not toys and should not be treated as or manufactured like a toy. SB 798 would include the complete exterior of an airsoft gun also be colored. Airsoft guns are already classified as toys/imitation firearms and are regulated under federal law to have an orange tip. SB 798 does not stop there, it would also place a civil fine on the sale, manufacture, transportation, receipt, or distribution of imitation firearms for commercial purposes. Ultimately, SB 798 will ban the sale of all air guns, BB guns and airsoft guns unless the manufacturer is willing to take on the extra expense of complying with California’s (the only state) new law, if enacted into law. SB 798 passed in the Senate by 21 to 16 vote.


https://www.nraila.org/articles/20110617/gun-related-bills-to-be-heard-on-june-2-1

NSSF via partnership with the National Crime Prevention Council's "McGruff the Crime Dog", states, "even toy guns must be handled with care:never aim a toy gun at someone because that person might think it’s a real gun." Via the same McGruff program, NSSF reminds educators that BB guns are NOT toys. https://www.nssf.org/PDF/McGruff_TGD.pdf

The NRA has opposed toy or imitation gun bans, which depending on the state/locality have included provisions outright banning all toys that look like firearms, to more specific bans on airsoft or bb/pellet guns. Baltimore recently passed a ban on such guns. Of course the NRA should oppose such meritless bans. Personally, I just chalk it up to another stone in the ongoing culture war against lawful gun ownership.

Personally, I love "toy gun bans". The issue makes gun control advocates look like extremists for wanting to ban toys. All pro-rights folks have to do is simple messaging....If gun controllers want to ban cap guns, what do you think they want to do with your real firearms? It's just one of those things that makes people weary of supporting gun control measures at all. So, by all means continue.


flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
36. Thanks for the reply and glad you had a wonderful weekend.
Tue Jan 3, 2017, 11:40 AM
Jan 2017

So the law says Airsoft has to have a 1/2 inch orange stub on the barrel tip. I knew this and think it comes under the NASCAR decal rule; if it doesn't look straight from 50 feet at 50 mph, it ain't straight. If this tiny orange tip can't be seen during a standoff, possibly in the dark, when adrenaline is flowing and tensions are high it doesn't help.

As for the NSSF's and the NRA's concerns about painted air guns being treated as toys please explain why they both promote this:

Now about BB and pellet guns. I searched Pyramidair for pistols. The muzzle velocity for these look alike guns ranges from just under 300 fps to just over 400 fps. The strong ones might penetrate a police uniform and break the skin at 20 feet. Yet they are lumped in with the most powerful break barrels like the one I own.

The concern of police departments is that 83 (reported) shootings of people with nonlethal imitation guns is too many when a simple fix would save these lives. I've seen nothing in this thread to explain the opposition to marking such toys and bb/pellet guns as what they are: toys. Now, if there should be a carve out for high performance non firearms it is worth discussing. The problem with that is that if that door is opened and it is admitted that these high performance air guns can be as deadly as firearms, the question changes to "Why not regulate these guns like conventional firearms?"

You can't really have it both ways and look like reason applies to your position; either they are 'real' guns and should be regulated like conventional firearms or they aren't and should be treated as such.

 

Kang Colby

(1,941 posts)
37. You make some fair points.
Tue Jan 3, 2017, 11:13 PM
Jan 2017

You have to keep in mind that you and I have philosophical differences on the matter of guns. I'm going to offer a pro gun rights opinion, and you tend to argue the case for firearm restrictions. This issue aside, you and I would probably be good buddies and would probably agree on most other important issues. I have a few friends who favor gun control, one or two of which hate guns.


That Crickett rifle is marketed to adults. Specifically parents or grandparents. A guy walks into the gun shop, sees the Crickett and thinks about it being a good opportunity to spend some time outdoors with his daughter while also enjoying fond memories of learning to shoot with an old single shot or break action with his father. The kind of memories you cherish for a life time.

The gun company doesn't run ads on cereal boxes, look at their website....very boring yet responsible.

Of the forty or so people killed by police while in possession of an "imitation firearm", how many were actively attacking the police, engaged in violent crime, or setting up a suicide by cop? Probably damn near all of them...exceptions being cases like Rice and Crawford. Crawford's death was the byproduct of a swatting troll and law enforcement negligence.

A 13 year old kid was shot a week or so ago in Baltimore, he decided to car jack a retired LEO with an imitation firearm and got LEOSA'd. Sad, sure....but why the hell is a 13 year old out jacking cars? That's what I would like to fix.

I agree with you on the NASCAR comment. But I can't think of a scenario where LEO would be able to immediately ID the object, citing the people who have been shot and killed for holding a phone or reaching for a wallet. There is always spray paint too.

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
40. So it's the victim's fault? These are all crimes worthy of capital punishment?
Wed Jan 4, 2017, 12:56 PM
Jan 2017

Is that a supportable position? If you think so . . .

We differ on the marketing of 'my first rifle' but that's a red herring. Your point was that brightly colored toy guns would lead to treating real guns as toys as justification for not marking toys as toys. The Cricket proves you wrong.

I do not hate guns. You know I own rather a lot of them and have expended enough rounds to put three through a playing card at 100 yards from muscle memory. I DO want to prevent senseless death and injury when possible. Toy guns seem like a no brainer yet the industry resists. I'm trying to understand why.

I am on record as wishing to ban the import, manufacture, sale or transfer of any semi auto gun with a removable magazine. That is because since the '70s when the gun industry co-opted the NRA and began the fear mongering campaign we currently see the lethality of weaponry on the streets has increased dramatically. I'd like to limit that lethality to revolvers and bolt action/pump guns that must be loaded through conventional means.

The Pentagon is currently taking submissions for a new sidearm. It must be more reliable, more accurate and more lethal than the current Baretta. All good things in a combat situation, not so much in civilian hands. As soon as it is adopted it will become the gun dejure for the gunner public and marketed as such much like the AR. Emergency rooms nationwide will contend with the increased lethality.

yagotme

(2,848 posts)
41. Sooo, the civilian weapons
Wed Jan 4, 2017, 04:21 PM
Jan 2017

should be less lethal (needing more shots to put a home invader down), less accurate (see previous), and less reliable? That doesn't go well with your previous paragraph's wish for civilians to have revolvers only. One of my most accurate pistols is a 6" 686 S&W .357 magnum, that can cut the x-ring out of a target at 15 yds. Put full house 125 JHP's, or one of the new "wonder" bullets in it, and it will be more lethal than a 9mm FMJ (Beretta mil load) by far.

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
42. Lethality is more than ballistics.
Wed Jan 4, 2017, 04:51 PM
Jan 2017

Think you could shoot 105 people in a nightclub with your wheelgun?

On the other hand, if you can't defend yourself that S&W you really shouldn't have a gun of any kind.

yagotme

(2,848 posts)
45. My post was in reply to yours,
Thu Jan 5, 2017, 12:30 PM
Jan 2017

about the lethality of the Beretta. The Beretta would come under the "assault weapon" ban, as it has a so-called high capacity magazine (over 10 rounds). Therefore, I assumed you were talking about the ballistics of the round, since the Beretta already passes muster on the capacity side. And, for speed shooting with a wheelgun, I refer you to to Jerry Miculek (sp?). Shoots 8 rds out of a 8-shot revolver in under 2 seconds, I believe, and reloads and shoots 8 more under 6 seconds, total. If someone really WANTS to do something, like shoot up a night club, or get their hands on an illegal weapon, they will usually find a way.

yagotme

(2,848 posts)
47. No, not quite, but if someone wanted to practice,
Thu Jan 5, 2017, 05:36 PM
Jan 2017

they could work up to something near that. Like I said, if someone wants to do something, they'll find a way. Back in the day, I could rattle a cylinder full off pretty quick, wasn't timed, tho.

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
48. One more time,
Thu Jan 5, 2017, 07:47 PM
Jan 2017

can you or Jerry shoot 100 people with a S&W in a night club. If not go away with the idiocy you spout.

yagotme

(2,848 posts)
50. How many hours do I get, like in FL?
Thu Jan 5, 2017, 09:19 PM
Jan 2017

3??? I could use a single shot muzzle loader and shoot that often in that amount of time. Sufficient???

ETA: Thanks for the idiocy comment. Thought we were having an intellectual discussion. I guess that's not possible with some.

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
52. It is idiocy to maintain a man with a revolver can wound or kill 100 people
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 12:56 AM
Jan 2017

in a crowded venue while reloading 16 times. Loughner couldn't reload even once. I know that having a gun makes some men feel like Superman but face it, Superman you ain't.

Now run along and practice reloading in 2 seconds.

yagotme

(2,848 posts)
53. Are you always this condescending
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 01:50 AM
Jan 2017

Last edited Fri Jan 6, 2017, 12:37 PM - Edit history (1)

to people you have discussions with? I can reload in about 4 seconds, thank you very much. It's called a speed loader. Carries 6 rounds in a plastic, spring loaded holder with a convenient handhold. I may not be Superman, but for you to say it can't be done, because you say it can't be done, is, and I'll use the term you have used toward me TWICE, idiotic. So there. Phhhht.

BTW, how many times did the Pulse shooter reload? He had plenty of time...

ETA: From your own profile page.

"I can put up with a lot of shit from people who are passionate but not from people who are intentionally ignorant and too stubborn to see an opposing viewpoint regardless of validity and facts. "

Goose, meet gander.

 

Marengo

(3,477 posts)
54. This is the same "expert" who claimed the first production run of Mosin Nagant rifles...
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 08:47 AM
Jan 2017

Was of the Dragoon model, manufactured in the USA. I would regard his insults very lightly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=199560

yagotme

(2,848 posts)
55. I know, have been watching his modus operandi
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 12:27 PM
Jan 2017

for quite some time now. Just want to see how much line he takes out.

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
56. Naa, I save condescension for the guy who
Fri Jan 6, 2017, 02:06 PM
Jan 2017

stakes out a preposterous position and continues to defend it. You chose EXACTLY the right quote to describe this thread, so bye bye.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
65. "Silencers...really don't silence and only serve the purpose of making your gun longer"
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 07:37 PM
Jan 2017
http://www.democraticunderground.com/126211810

"Ken Ham expounding on evolutionary biology" comes to mind...

yagotme

(2,848 posts)
68. So, why all the expense of putting something
Sun Jan 8, 2017, 04:13 PM
Jan 2017

on the end of a gun that doesn't work, just to make it longer? They sell pipe at the hardware store. Must have some effect, then, to justify it. (Maybe all the Youtube videos of silencers in operation are just being faked.)

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
67. And yet every year, ten or fifteen times as many people are murdered with revolvers
Sun Jan 8, 2017, 03:52 PM
Jan 2017

as with all rifles put together, even though modern-looking rifles are more popular than revolvers among gun enthusiasts.

And before the gun-control lobby discovered how eeeee-villlll protruding rifle handgrips are, they were all about outlawing revolvers while protecting rifles (including AR-15's), because "rifles and shotguns aren't the problem; they aren't concealable". --Pete Shields, former head of Handgun Control, Inc., later the Brady Campaign.

Methinks there is a disconnect in your logic.

ToolMaker

(27 posts)
15. The best reason that I can think of is...
Sun Jan 1, 2017, 12:56 AM
Jan 2017

because it doesn't accomplish much, if anything. Back when it became required to have a bright orange muzzle on toy guns, one of the results was that people with ill intent started painting real guns to match toy guns, hoping to create a delay in response from law enforcement and placing them at increased risk.

Personally, I'm not a fan of "toy" guns at all. My kids were never allowed to "play" with guns. Guns are not toys. Airsoft, BB and pellet guns can be used effectively for training, but I see no need for kids to have ready access to them without adult supervision, and certainly not in an environment where kids playing could be misconstrued to cause alarm and a law enforcement reaction. Like many things in life, a small amount of common sense could save a lot of grief.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
16. I'll answer your question if you answer mine
Sun Jan 1, 2017, 09:07 AM
Jan 2017

Why are you asking about toys in the GC&RKBA group?
I don't happen to think your question belongs here but if you manage to suggest some relevance, I'll do my best to answer. I was going to alert for SOP but I thought maybe there might be something relevant.

Happy New Year

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
19. this reply is for discntnt_irny_srcsm because DU won't let me post replyies to
Sun Jan 1, 2017, 03:51 PM
Jan 2017

those I have on ignore. I log off to monitor this thread because it's only fair to see what the comments are since I asked for them.

You said you'd answer my question if I told you why this belongs in the gungeon's SOP.

The SOP says this group is for discussion of gun control and gun politics among other things. The OP meets both of those requirements as it references possible legislation concerning toy GUNS and the politics of the gun rights advocacy groups opposing that legislation.

Your turn.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
20. Cool & Happy New Year
Sun Jan 1, 2017, 05:29 PM
Jan 2017

I did come to believe I was on ignore but I'm not offended as it's a DU feature.

I do have to honestly say that I don't KNOW why the NRA and GOA oppose making (by legislation) toys look like toys and not real guns. I have your OP that says they do but I don't interest myself in news or views which derive from either group.

I conjecture that this may have to do with the source you sited considering some items as toys which the two pro-gun groups do not. As I said, I've not studied the issue; I don't buy or own toy guns, real guns or even imaginary guns.

As I said before, I don't consider a toy gun to be a gun. I agree they're possibly deadly but they're not guns. I still don't see the reason for discussing them in this group but at least you're discussing something and the word gun is involved.

Peace

P.S. - As a rhetorical preponderance, your answer left me wondering why you're reading my replies and answering while you keep me on ignore. I have accepted that some there are those contradictions I won't ever understand.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
58. Apparently I was temporarily unigored via manual override...
Sat Jan 7, 2017, 08:09 AM
Jan 2017

...for the purpose of playing along in the game of "these weapons look like guns but aren't and should be regulated like toys and if they were (and he says they are) what business does the NRA, etc. have in being against them marked like toys" nonsense.
:where's the calliope smilie: Is the circus in town?

SQUEE

(1,315 posts)
25. Only thing I come up with is it's a pushback
Mon Jan 2, 2017, 10:48 AM
Jan 2017

Against the culture war being waged on gun owners.

I think it is a misguided attempt myself, I am personally opposed to realistic toy guns for kids.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
27. Well, reading both the CBS & the mammoth WaPo screed, little about the NRA..
Mon Jan 2, 2017, 03:39 PM
Jan 2017

was mentioned, save the "no comment" reported.

In any case, ask them, (or the GOA, which seemed close enough to the NRA, for the Post).

The title of the CBS article is almost irresponsible, including "fake or toy guns." There is NOTHING fake or toy-like about modern air guns (an industrial sector which is increasingly dominated by Europeans), esp. those designed for short-range U.S. big-game hunting. Even the Post references these weapons as "...that look real, but are not." Frankly, I'm neutral on changing the appearance on actual toy guns, though reviewing everyone's ensueing bad art is not an attractive prospect. With air guns moving into the same ballistic functionality as fire & brimstone arms, these weapons may fall under 2nd Amendment protections.

I would like to see the number of average of 43/yr broken down as to how many objects were "toy" on one hand, and how many were air/Co2 weapons.

Edit: It appears a chart posted above sufficiently delineates

yagotme

(2,848 posts)
31. If I recall, in IL,
Mon Jan 2, 2017, 07:04 PM
Jan 2017

high velocity (1000 fps or greater, I believe) airguns are treated as firearms under IL law. FOID, etc.

"With air guns moving into the same ballistic functionality as fire & brimstone arms, these weapons may fall under 2nd Amendment protections." :Eleanors38

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
32. That doesn't surprise me. I attempted a discussion with a gun prohibitionist
Mon Jan 2, 2017, 07:25 PM
Jan 2017

about "future" technologies, be they air guns, phasers, ray guns, and all the stuff of Buck Rogers, and how courts and society might view them. I suggested these weapons would be accepted more or less as civilian self defense techs, just as radio, t.v., and the innertubes are accepted as free "Press." He clung to the old muzzle loader (that was what was used when the Second was written, and all) as the only firearm protected. I suggested that his argument should at least fall back to semi-autos as the quaint firearm meant for use by our forefathers.

BTW, the Second doesn't even mention FIREarms, only "keep and bear arms."

yagotme

(2,848 posts)
33. Bayonets, pikes, swords
Mon Jan 2, 2017, 07:58 PM
Jan 2017

were also in the "arms" list, I believe.

ETA: In the USMC, there is a "manual of arms" for the sword...

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