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GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 10:24 AM Feb 2012

Number of Ohio CCW doubles in last three years.

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2012/02/number_of_ohioans_legally_carr.html#incart_mce

COLUMBUS, Ohio - The number of Ohioans who have licenses to legally carry concealed firearms has more than doubled in the past three years, according to figures from the Ohio Attorney General's Office.

With another 49,825 people obtaining the license in 2011, that pushed the figure from 2009 to 2011 to 153,853 newly issued licenses. That includes the one-year record of 56,691 in 2009.

At this point, more than 265,000 Ohioans now have permits making them eligible to carry their firearms hidden in their clothing or vehicles. And gun rights activists expect that number to continue to climb this year, likely eclipsing the 300,000 mark.

"Eventually you aren't going to know who you might come into contact with who legally is carrying a gun, and that's the point," said Jeff Garvas, of Ohioans for Concealed Carry. "Eventually people with bad intentions aren't going to realize who they are coming into contact with."

(More at Link)


It is becoming more socially acceptable to be armed. Ohio's 21 and over population is about 8,250,000. About 3.2% now have CCWs and the number is climbing.
62 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Number of Ohio CCW doubles in last three years. (Original Post) GreenStormCloud Feb 2012 OP
Developing: Chardon High School in Geauga County is on lockdown right now after a shooting. baldguy Feb 2012 #1
How many CCW permits have been issued to Ohio HS students? DonP Feb 2012 #2
That's ridiculous of course rfranklin Feb 2012 #3
So you agree that CCW permits are unrelated... ProgressiveProfessor Feb 2012 #4
I have no evidence one way or the other... rfranklin Feb 2012 #6
I call that the "guns behave like gas molecules fallacy" slackmaster Feb 2012 #7
I call that making shit up out of your own head... rfranklin Feb 2012 #9
Incidents of irresponsible storage have nothing to do with the number of firearms that exist slackmaster Feb 2012 #10
The tool for teaching youngsters about gun safety burf Feb 2012 #18
Eddie Eagle is supposed to teach VERY young children not to pick up an unsecured weapon, that's all slackmaster Feb 2012 #20
Start 'em young burf Feb 2012 #26
You've not heard of adults pipoman Feb 2012 #22
But we don't see that. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #30
Of course it is DonP Feb 2012 #8
The more guns there are in circulation, the more gun crimes occur. baldguy Feb 2012 #12
Post removed Post removed Feb 2012 #13
What are you claiming? rfranklin Feb 2012 #28
He's saying that the subject line of reply #12 is inaccurate slackmaster Feb 2012 #29
So you agree that the post is wrong and misleading, since you know crime is down DonP Feb 2012 #34
And even after the drop, the US still has far more gun violence and homicide... DanTex Feb 2012 #35
please correct me if I am wrong, gejohnston Feb 2012 #37
Who do "arrogant constitutional law profs" have to do with this? DanTex Feb 2012 #42
Sorry. Cheap shot I admit, gejohnston Feb 2012 #44
But guns in circulation are at record highs while violent crime is at decade-lows. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #31
Totally unsubstantiated, totally untrue. But you knew that. nt SteveW Feb 2012 #39
Please let us know what " reasonable & rational gun control laws" are to you. oneshooter Feb 2012 #43
I've noticed a severe lack of responses shadowrider Mar 2012 #56
I believe that they are more afraid. They know that they can not oneshooter Mar 2012 #58
Or perhaps when they've responded they've been exposed as ignorant. Simo 1939_1940 Mar 2012 #59
"The more guns there are in circulation, the more gun crimes occur." rl6214 Feb 2012 #48
Apparently.... not. n/t PavePusher Mar 2012 #60
This is exactly the kind of pipoman Feb 2012 #19
But...but...schools are gun-free zones. GreenStormCloud Feb 2012 #24
A student is in custody as the suspected shooter. GreenStormCloud Feb 2012 #25
What's this got to do with the OP? rl6214 Feb 2012 #46
OHIO baldguy Feb 2012 #47
Nothing at all to do with concealed carry rl6214 Feb 2012 #49
Responsible citizens taking responsibility DWC Feb 2012 #5
The availability of guns and ammo promotes proliferation. Loudly Feb 2012 #11
Try again, but use facts this time DonP Feb 2012 #14
Yes, if I ignore the shooting all is well. Loudly Feb 2012 #15
Nobody said "ignore the shooting", except you of course DonP Feb 2012 #21
Crime rate would likely be even lower without all the dang guns. Hoyt Feb 2012 #17
Ummm, sure that makes sense DonP Feb 2012 #23
... ellisonz Feb 2012 #27
Liberty over safety. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #33
True, but it would be even lower with the legalization of drugs. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #32
We agree on that. But, I doubt one gun carrier would quit even if crime were almost zero. Hoyt Feb 2012 #36
And if crime were almost zero, then it WOULD NOT MATTER WHO CARRIED GUNS. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #38
Like I said, you guys can't give up your guns. Hoyt Feb 2012 #45
Like I said, if there was no crime, it wouldn't matter who had guns. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #50
And why the hell should I? BiggJawn Feb 2012 #52
Yea, but guns pollute society and indirectly impact a lot of people. Hi price to keep you happy. Hoyt Feb 2012 #53
Actually, crime rates have been coming down... SteveW Feb 2012 #40
Right fightthegoodfightnow Feb 2012 #51
Crime rates have been coming down, you agree?... SteveW Mar 2012 #54
Nonsense fightthegoodfightnow Mar 2012 #55
You keep creating an argument over a strawman... SteveW Mar 2012 #57
Seriously fightthegoodfightnow Mar 2012 #61
Again... fightthegoodfightnow Mar 2012 #62
I don't think it has become more socially acceptable. Hoyt Feb 2012 #16
Good on our northern friends taking safety into their own hands. ileus Feb 2012 #41
 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
1. Developing: Chardon High School in Geauga County is on lockdown right now after a shooting.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 10:28 AM
Feb 2012
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101461357

I'm sure this is just a coincidence.

Not.
 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
2. How many CCW permits have been issued to Ohio HS students?
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 10:31 AM
Feb 2012

Do you depend on ignorance of the readers to try and make your "pointless" points in every forum, or just here?

Or do you actully believe that a permit holder went into the school to shoot it up?

 

rfranklin

(13,200 posts)
6. I have no evidence one way or the other...
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 10:53 AM
Feb 2012

but as we keep pumping more guns into more places, the opportunities for them to be misused multiplies.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
7. I call that the "guns behave like gas molecules fallacy"
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 10:57 AM
Feb 2012

Firearms don't necessarily distribute themselves randomly so as to fill available space uniformly.

Owning a firearm carries moral responsibility. Basic gun safety, including the importance of proper storage of firearms, should be taught in public schools.

 

rfranklin

(13,200 posts)
9. I call that making shit up out of your own head...
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 11:08 AM
Feb 2012

You have never heard of adults leaving firearms around the house and kids getting their hands on them with tragic consequences?

All those fine ideas are great, but there is never 100% compliance in practice.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
10. Incidents of irresponsible storage have nothing to do with the number of firearms that exist
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 11:15 AM
Feb 2012

I made a concrete proposal here - Teaching basic gun safety in public schools.

Do you have anything constructive to bring into the discussion?

burf

(1,164 posts)
18. The tool for teaching youngsters about gun safety
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 12:24 PM
Feb 2012

already exists, it called Eddie Eagle. But we can't use a proven successful program teaching gun safety because it from the dreaded NRA!

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
20. Eddie Eagle is supposed to teach VERY young children not to pick up an unsecured weapon, that's all
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 12:33 PM
Feb 2012

I would like to see the (usually four) basic rules of safe gun handling, and procedures for safely unloading a few common types of weapons taught in public schools. Also give teens and young adults an awareness of the importance, and legal implications, of safely storing firearms at all times.

A lot of young parents naively believe that their children are "special" and will obey rules about not messing with their parents' things. That too often leads to a young child picking up a gun and shooting someone, or a troubled teenager stealing a weapon and taking it to school.

I believe giving all kids a basic education in gun safety would address both of those kinds of problems.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
22. You've not heard of adults
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 12:38 PM
Feb 2012

leaving patio doors unlocked and kids accessing the pool with tragic consequences?

 

Atypical Liberal

(5,412 posts)
30. But we don't see that.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 01:58 PM
Feb 2012
as we keep pumping more guns into more places, the opportunities for them to be misused multiplies.

But the number of guns in circulation has been increasing for years, and violent crime has been declining for decades.
 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
8. Of course it is
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 10:57 AM
Feb 2012

But that doesn't stop some posters from referring to anyone that does something criminal as an "RKBA Loon" in other threads on the subject.

Trying to conflate law abiding gun owners with criminal activity is probably the lowest form of criticism there is.

But it's not uncommon among gun control supporters who rely on the ignorance (small i) and manipulated outrage of the people that don't follow the issue.

The latest reports are that they are holding one student but no name has been released and that as of now no one was killed, but there were three wounded with no other details yet.

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
12. The more guns there are in circulation, the more gun crimes occur.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 11:29 AM
Feb 2012

Our lax gun laws allow these mass shootings to occur on a regular basis, which creates an immense amount of unnecessary suffering & death.

And you know who's OK with all that unnecessary suffering & death? People who don't want reasonable & rational gun control laws.

Response to baldguy (Reply #12)

 

rfranklin

(13,200 posts)
28. What are you claiming?
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 01:54 PM
Feb 2012

Crime is down in areas with very restrictive gun laws as well. So what's your point?

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
34. So you agree that the post is wrong and misleading, since you know crime is down
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 02:12 PM
Feb 2012

Obviously more guns in circulation does not equal more crime.

Wow! With the agreement that this has nothing to do with CCW in Ohio and that crime is down overall even with record high gun sales for the last three years, that's two agreements in one thread.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
35. And even after the drop, the US still has far more gun violence and homicide...
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 02:41 PM
Feb 2012

...than any other wealthy nation.

As far as the crime drop, there are a few things to keep in mind. The first is that while the number of gun sales (actually the number of background checks) has been rising, the number of gun owners has actually declined since the early 90s, a decline that coincided with the 90s drop in crime. Of course, since a lot of things affect crime rates, then the drop in crime neither proves nor disproves any relationship between guns and crime rates. But, studies that have looked at the data in more detailed, state-by-state or county-by-county level have in fact found that gun ownership rates have a significant effect on homicide rates. For example:

This paper examines the relationship between gun ownership and crime. Previous research has suffered from a lack of reliable data on gun ownership. I exploit a unique data set to reliably estimate annual rates of gun ownership at both the state and the county levels during the past two decades. My findings demonstrate that changes in gun ownership are significantly positively related to changes in the homicide rate, with this relationship driven almost entirely by an impact of gun ownership on murders in which a gun is used. The effect of gun ownership on all other crime categories is much less marked. Recent reductions in the fraction of households owning a gun can explain one-third of the differential decline in gun homicides relative to nongun homicides since 1993.

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/dranove/htm/dranove/coursepages/Mgmt%2520469/guns.pdf

This paper provides new estimates of the effect of household gun prevalence on homicide rates,
and infers the marginal external cost of handgun ownership. The estimates utilize a superior proxy
for gun prevalence, the percentage of suicides committed with a gun, which we validate. Using
county- and state-level panels for 20 years, we estimate the elasticity of homicide with respect to gun
prevalence as between +0.1 and +0.3. All of the effect of gun prevalence is on gun homicide rates.
Under certain reasonable assumptions, the average annual marginal social cost of household gun
ownership is in the range $100 to $1800.

http://home.uchicago.edu/~ludwigj/papers/JPubE_guns_2006FINAL.pdf

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
37. please correct me if I am wrong,
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 04:38 PM
Feb 2012

not to sound like a anti-intellectual gun militant (or an arrogant "constitutional law prof" at a tier 4 degree mill)
In the first study, is he basing gun ownership rates only on Guns & Ammo sales?

Did he control for people switching to blogs like this one?
Did he control for new gun buyers not really being into guns as a hobby? The Florida county I live in can be described as Long Island and Queens South. Take a CCW class full of former New Yorkers sometime. I did. At the range, the instructor used house owned .38 revolvers for the practical part of the class. Some of them (including the guy next to me) did not know how to load it because they thought the cylinder release was the safety.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
42. Who do "arrogant constitutional law profs" have to do with this?
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 05:32 PM
Feb 2012

Since state and county level data for gun ownership is not available, both studies used proxy variables. The first study used Guns and Ammo sales as a proxy for gun ownership. The second study used fraction of suicides with guns as proxy.

Proxy variables are not going to be exactly identical to the underlying variable of interest, just closely correlated.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
44. Sorry. Cheap shot I admit,
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 08:25 PM
Feb 2012

but I tend to see anti-intellectualism and "pretending to know" (faux-intellectualism?) as two sides of the same coin.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

 

Atypical Liberal

(5,412 posts)
31. But guns in circulation are at record highs while violent crime is at decade-lows.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 02:00 PM
Feb 2012
The more guns there are in circulation, the more gun crimes occur.

The data does not support your assertion.

We have record numbers of guns in circulation, ever-more liberal gun laws, and yet violent crime is continuing its decades-long downward trend.

shadowrider

(4,941 posts)
56. I've noticed a severe lack of responses
Mon Mar 5, 2012, 05:26 PM
Mar 2012

when anti-gun people are queried what THEIR ideas are of "reasonable and rational gun control laws".

They don't have any besides registration (a no go), microstamping (a no go) or fines for stolen guns used in crimes (a no go).

So, they choose to ignore only to pop up elsewhere with the same BS.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
58. I believe that they are more afraid. They know that they can not
Mon Mar 5, 2012, 06:38 PM
Mar 2012

come up with any ideas that would be acceptable to both the people, or the courts. That means that they cannot answer truthfully and thus they run from the light.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

Simo 1939_1940

(768 posts)
59. Or perhaps when they've responded they've been exposed as ignorant.
Mon Mar 5, 2012, 07:12 PM
Mar 2012

During a civil discussion once with a group of fellow liberal friends a woman was arguing passionately for gun registration. I realized that she was equating registration with background checks, and told her that there was no connection between the two. Once my friends realized how little they actually knew about the subject, the subject quickly changed.
 

rl6214

(8,142 posts)
48. "The more guns there are in circulation, the more gun crimes occur."
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 09:40 PM
Feb 2012

Proof please...obviously if you are going to throw this out there you have got some sort of documentation that proves it.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
24. But...but...schools are gun-free zones.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 12:50 PM
Feb 2012

The signs say so.

Exactly what does that school shooting have to do with a CCW?

 

DWC

(911 posts)
5. Responsible citizens taking responsibility
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 10:49 AM
Feb 2012

for their own safety and security.

Makes me proud!

Semper Fi,

 

Loudly

(2,436 posts)
11. The availability of guns and ammo promotes proliferation.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 11:26 AM
Feb 2012

Pretty simple and predictable result.

I need to become armed because I see society arming up and it makes me nervous.

A self-fullfilling, downward spiral into utter madness.

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
14. Try again, but use facts this time
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 11:41 AM
Feb 2012

No matter how the latest cable news cycle reports make you feel, gun sales have been at record high levels for the last few years.

Now before you start ranting, you should also know that the FBI has been reporting record low levels of violent and gun crimes, the lowest in 40 years.

Now, can you explain how a record low violent crime rate is due to the availability of guns to the class?

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
21. Nobody said "ignore the shooting", except you of course
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 12:33 PM
Feb 2012

You claimed that it was somehow caused by gun proliferation.

I just pointed out the actual facts, that gun crime is way down in spite of record high gun sales.

I'm sorry if that "harshes your mellow", but it's the facts.

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
23. Ummm, sure that makes sense
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 12:48 PM
Feb 2012

Since your logic of more guns equals more crime fell apart, according to the FBI reports.

And you can't allow that more guns might have had any impact resulting in less crime.

Your last resort is to claim that even though there really is less crime with more guns, there might be even less, less crime if we had even less guns.

Yeah and that makes sense, using the "Because you think so" support system you normally rely on for your "ideas".

 

Atypical Liberal

(5,412 posts)
32. True, but it would be even lower with the legalization of drugs.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 02:03 PM
Feb 2012

The fact of the matter is, in spite of record numbers of firearms in circulation, violent crime continues to decline as it has for decades.

Could it be lower still? Sure. If you made drugs legal I bet it would have twenty times the impact on crime than if every firearm on the planet vanished.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
36. We agree on that. But, I doubt one gun carrier would quit even if crime were almost zero.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 02:51 PM
Feb 2012

Gun carriers would find some rationale to continue carrying -- like, you never know when a rabid coyote might break into Chuck E Cheeze and attack those waiting in line or something.
 

Atypical Liberal

(5,412 posts)
38. And if crime were almost zero, then it WOULD NOT MATTER WHO CARRIED GUNS.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 04:59 PM
Feb 2012

If crime were almost zero, then it would not matter if people carried guns or not.

No harm, no foul.

BiggJawn

(23,051 posts)
52. And why the hell should I?
Tue Feb 28, 2012, 11:41 PM
Feb 2012

People die horrendously in car wrecks, too. Oh, but that's a regrettable, yet acceptable loss because you see nothing wrong with owning a motor vehicle, yes?

Do you hang around the motorhead forum calling the people there "Rude Dragracers"?

People slip and die in the bathtub. Do you propose we'd be safer as a stinky un-washed nation?

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
53. Yea, but guns pollute society and indirectly impact a lot of people. Hi price to keep you happy.
Wed Feb 29, 2012, 12:07 AM
Feb 2012

SteveW

(754 posts)
40. Actually, crime rates have been coming down...
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 05:04 PM
Feb 2012

According to the F.B.I., crime in general and crime involving guns has been coming down since the before the turn of the century.

"self-fullfilling, downward spiral into utter madness" does not need to occur; you don't have to buy a firearm, and purchasing one doesn't lead to spirals or madness.

SteveW

(754 posts)
54. Crime rates have been coming down, you agree?...
Mon Mar 5, 2012, 05:02 PM
Mar 2012

BTW, how does the "3 percent having concealed weapons" argument pertain to this?

The drop in crime and the concomitant rise in gun-ownership merely shows that the slop-slogan "more guns = more crimes" has not been proven.

fightthegoodfightnow

(7,042 posts)
55. Nonsense
Mon Mar 5, 2012, 05:21 PM
Mar 2012

The notion that guns are the reason is absurd.

How many street cameras have been installed in your city the last fivea years.......just one of many examples.....

SteveW

(754 posts)
57. You keep creating an argument over a strawman...
Mon Mar 5, 2012, 05:48 PM
Mar 2012

Why do you proclaim "nonsense," when I didn't say anything about 3% of anything? There are many points of speculation floating about to explain the drop in crime; your "street cameras" speculation being just one.

Again: The drop in crime and the concomitant rise in civilian firearm ownership only shows that the argument "more guns = more crime" is not proven. That is all. That is hard logic and not "nonsense."

fightthegoodfightnow

(7,042 posts)
61. Seriously
Mon Mar 5, 2012, 07:46 PM
Mar 2012

Read what you wrote.

I didn't bring up anything about three percent.

More guns may or may not indeed mean more crime. We may not ever know since there are other variables as you acknowledge.

Same is true about the argument more guns means less crime...it may or may not be true.

Fair?

fightthegoodfightnow

(7,042 posts)
62. Again...
Mon Mar 5, 2012, 07:57 PM
Mar 2012

Read what you wrote.

I didn't bring up anything about three percent.

More guns may or may not indeed mean more crime. We may not ever know since there are other variables as you acknowledge.

Same is true about the argument more guns means less crime...it may or may not be true.

Fair?

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
16. I don't think it has become more socially acceptable.
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 12:18 PM
Feb 2012

More people may be carrying their guns with them, but I don't see a lot of folks who are opposed to guns saying "shoot, it's a wonderful way to show you are hip."
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