Weapons common on Oregon college campus despite 'gun-free zone'

[Eugene]

Source: Reuters

US | Mon Oct 5, 2015 9:16am EDT

Weapons common on Oregon college campus despite 'gun-free zone'

ROSEBURG, ORE. | BY ERIC M. JOHNSON

When a gunman killed eight students and a teacher at an Oregon college last week, he also revived a debate on the need to change firearm laws and whether the school's "gun-free zone" policy only made easier for him.

President Barack Obama quickly pleaded for stricter gun laws to prevent similar tragedies, angering conservatives such as Republican presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee. "It's clear that gun-free zones are sitting-duck zones," Huckabee said.

But about a dozen students and others connected to Umpqua Community College in Roseburg said many students carried guns despite the campus ban and that this was common knowledge.

"You are allowed to conceal and carry on that campus," said Umpqua student and part-time wildland firefighter Jeremy Smith, 24. "It's not a gun-free zone."

Smith said he would never return to campus without a handgun.

[font size=1]-snip-[/font]

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/05/us-usa-oregon-shooting-campus-idUSKCN0RZ1D820151005

[SheilaT]

1. The campus is NOT gun free.

Plus, all the kids who had guns, and not a single one managed to stop the shooter. Perhaps that tends to undermine the asinine notion that a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun. Especially since it has almost never happened.

[gejohnston]

2. actually, they do have a gun free policy

there were no kids with guns there. The kids would have been under 21, too young for a CCW. Fact is, good guys with guns do stop bad guys with or without guns. In fact, it is very common according to at least 17 criminology studies over the past forty years. Even gun control activist and academic David Hemenway admits that it happens over 100K times a year. Granted almost all of them with no shots fired and very few land up dead, it does in fact happen.
Just because former Monsanto PR executive Shannon Watts said so while working for Bloomberg, doesn't mean it is true. If the source matters, Watts is a PR professional who headed Monstanto's GMOs are good for you.

The question is, how many had them in a freshman comp class? Based on average of those classes, I would say zero. Of course, it is a nice distraction from this being a hate crime directed towards Christians, isn't it?

[SheilaT]

3. Those numbers are highly suspect.

What we never get are reports of some active shooter somewhere, another person has a gun, and BANG! The original shooter is now dead.

[gejohnston]

4. suspect?

decades of studies in peer reviewed criminology journals and replicated as being valid vs the tweets of a former Monstanto PR executive who happens to be on the payroll of a narcissistic, authoritarian, and racist billionaire.

You can pretty well guess which claim is I think is suspect.
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#crime

What we never get are reports of some active shooter somewhere, another person has a gun, and BANG! The original shooter is now dead.

They don't make the national news because there is no sensationalize. They do show up in local news. If you go by national news, you would think that gangs in places like Chicago and DC don't kill that many people a weekend, but we both know that isn't true.

[jimmy the one]

19. wrong again batman

Johnston: actually, they do have a gun free policy there were no kids with guns there. The kids would have been under 21, too young for a CCW.

I was 25 when I graduated college. And 26 too. Students come in all ages these days.

A veteran who says he was carrying a concealed weapon on the UCC campus when 26-year-old Mercer went on a murderous rampage, says he didn’t intervene because he knew police SWAT team members wouldn’t know him from the shooter. In an interview with MSNBC, vet John Parker said he knows lots of students who conceal carry at the school because, despite a school policy that discourages weapons on campus, Oregon state law does allow it.
...Parker explained that his military training provided him with the skills to “go into danger,” but said he felt lucky he and others didn’t try to get involved going after Mercer. “Luckily we made the choice not to get involved,” And we could have opened ourselves up to be potential targets ourselves, and not knowing where SWAT was, their response time, they wouldn’t know who we were. And if we had our guns ready to shoot, they could think that we were bad guys.” http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2015/10/02/vet-with-concealed-weapon-explains-why-he-didnt-shoot-in-umpqua

Despite the protestations of gun rights advocates {like Johnston}, Umpqua Community College is not actually a "gun-free zone." In 2012, the Oregon State Board of Higher Education unanimously voted to ban guns inside university buildings, but not on campus grounds overall. While UCC is not dictated by the SBHE, its policy on weapons is reportedly comparable.
http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings

Johnston: actually, they do have a gun free policy there were no kids with guns there. The kids would have been under 21, too young for a CCW.

Do you understand how the facts make you wrong again, Johnston?

Johnston: Fact is, good guys with guns do stop bad guys with or without guns.. Even gun control activist and academic David Hemenway admits that it happens over 100K times a year. .

Sure it does happen, but not nearly enough to outweigh the carnage of gun death & injury & mayhem.

johnston: Just because former Monsanto PR executive Shannon Watts said so while working for Bloomberg, doesn't mean it is true. If the source matters, Watts is a PR professional who headed Monstanto's GMOs are good for you.... decades of studies in peer reviewed criminology journals and replicated as being valid vs the tweets of a former Monstanto PR executive who happens to be on the payroll of a narcissistic, authoritarian, and racist billionaire. You can pretty well guess which claim is I think is suspect. http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#crime

Here's a sterling example of Johnston posting a 'liar's link', without citing anything; he imposes upon readers to 'guess who I am!'. We don't want to play guessing games with your liar's links Johnston. We're not that interested in how the right wing democrat mind works. Cite specifically how you think your link supports you.
What exactly did Shannon watts 'say so' about defensive gun uses?

[gejohnston]

23. nope, I'm right as always

nobody said prevent, nobody said guarantee. Only that gun free zones were a guarantee.
links?
all right here
https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannontroughton

Mike Bloomberg the racist. Since the Harvard University shooting team is mostly minority....
https://www.rt.com/usa/230707-guns-minority-bloomberg-newyork/

Speaking of Bloomberg
http://gawker.com/5979679/id-do-her-a-brief-history-of-michael-bloombergs-public-sexism
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/media/columns/medialife/5349/


BTW, the justfacts.com provide citations.

Kids with guns? Actually, very correct. First, having permits does not always mean having gun on them. Also, the minimum age to apply for a CCW in Oregon, and most states, is 21. If you want to call an adult "nontraditional student" a "kid", that's on you. Actually, average number of DGUs are eight times what Hemenway claims, much more than the media hyped shootings. BTW, the guy wasn't in the classroom was he? No he wasn't. That is the big difference.

[jimmy the one]

24. mr ego says he's always right

gejohnston: nope, I'm right as always

Like below?

1) gejohnston: .. wiki/Cum_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc which simply means coordination does not imply causation http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=146684

2) Johnston 59 same link, trying to wiggle out: Seriously? No, I said correlation. BTW, nice and childish http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172149853#post44

3): Johnston 66 realizing he's caught: Honest typo. I had to go back and look.

How about here Johnston? when you were indeed 'wrong again batman':

Johnston 44: there was a lot less blood in DC streets before the 1940s. Concealed carry was banned in 1932, open carry in 1940s. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172149853#post44

I rebutted: DC in 1932 {simply} required a permit to carry concealed, & has technically never 'banned' carrying concealed firearms {with a permit}. And most firearms could be open carried legally in DC in the 40's, since longguns comprise 'most' of national gunstock

[jimmy the one]

25. is your foot sore?

You posted a complimentary resume' style link to Shannon watts; which again demonstrates your often inept linking style where you think you are proving something awful about someone or something, when you are really shooting yourself in the foot.
You wrote this, explain or post a link to what you're referring to:

Johnston: it happens over 100K times a year. Granted almost all of them with no shots fired and very few land up dead, it does in fact happen. Just because former Monsanto PR executive Shannon Watts said so while working for Bloomberg, doesn't mean it is true.

[gejohnston]

26. you clearly missed the point

To many, any connection with Monsanto by definition awful.
Actually, the number of DGUs are closer to 800k. Watts tweeted, with no evidence, that it never happens.
oh, another yellow flag on the field.

[jimmy the one]

29. provide link

Johnston: Actually, the number of DGUs are closer to 800k. Watts tweeted, with no evidence, that it never happens.

Do you have a link to this? again you have said or inferred this several times on this thread, I would like to see it in a post or reputable source, or link.

[gejohnston]

30. Watts said a lot of things wrong in the clip

including the probably false claim that they have not been trained, and "forty percent" canard, and other false claims.
https://iqmediacorp.com/ClipPlayer/?ClipID=246ebdf1-b8b0-417e-be98-d04b9b331602

To disprove her, you have to find one example. BTW, the CDC says DGUs out number assaults with firearms.

[jimmy the one]

31. no support from your link to what you say

Johnston: Watts said a lot of things wrong in the clip ... Actually, the number of DGUs are closer to 800k. Watts tweeted, with no evidence, that it never happens.

I didn't see any Shannon watts 'tweet' in your link.
This time you post to a video link without giving the start time (10 minute long vid, as if - but I knew what I was looking for); this I suspect what you're referring to, and if so you are lying:

excuse readers for all caps, copy from icon post:
{interviewer}Blackwell: >> I WANT TO CHALLENGE YOU ON SOMETHING, SHANNON....IS THERE AN EXAMPLE IN WHICH MAYBE SCHOOL SHOOTINGS OR MALL SHOOTINGS OR THESE PUBLIC FACILITIES WHERE THAT HAS BEEN WRONG, WHERE THIS BAD GUY WITH A GUN HAS BEEN STOPPED IN ANY OTHER WAY BY SOMETHING OTHER THAN OR A PERSON OTHER THAN A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WITH A GUN OR HIM KILLING HIMSELF?
Shannon watts replied: >> IT'S NEVER HAPPENED. DATA SHOWS IT DOESN'T HAPPEN.
http://www.highvelocityfirearms.com/2014/06/061014-tuesdays-news/

THAT's what Shannon watts said 'never happened', and afaik, it hasn't.

post a source for what you said here, Johnston: Actually, the number of DGUs are closer to 800k. Watts tweeted, with no evidence, that it never happens.

You can't. You smeared a good democrat and now you're trapped like a rat.

[beevul]

34. Pfft. New life is just an example.

THAT's what Shannon watts said 'never happened', and afaik, it hasn't.

A church is a 'public facility'.

Jeanne Assam was NOT law enforcement at the time she STOPPED the shooter, AFTER which, he killed himself.

Will you ignore it as watts has?

[gejohnston]

35. I can think of a couple examples

where the bad guy was stopped before it turned into a mass shooting, one by a cab driver.
Since these nut cases plan their events months in advance and target "no gun free zones" where has to be a good guy with a gun to begin with. I have no idea what her politics are, but good Democrat isn't very likely. Pointing out the truth is not smearing, since I did not attack her on anything irrelevant. She might be a Democrat, a Nixon/Stevens Republican, or simply a paid mercenary.

You did get one thing right though, I am a rat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_zodiac

[jimmy the one]

36. year of the rat

johnston's typical tapdance referring to Shannon watts: I have no idea what her {Shannon watts} politics are, but good Democrat isn't very likely. Pointing out the truth is not smearing, since I did not attack her on anything irrelevant.

Dazzling tapdance , but you still haven't 'pointed out the truth' (accd'g to Johnston) by providing a link to the crap you posted here:

Johnston's crap: Actually, the number of DGUs are closer to 800k. Watts tweeted, with no evidence, that it never happens.

Now either post a reputable source link regarding her alleged 'tweet' or apologize & shut your lying double talking mouth about Shannon watts - fine democrat spokeswoman for Moms demand action for gun sense.
Post a valid link or retract your slander, creep.
And pls go ahead & report this, my money says it stays up & you get disallowed from alerting for awhile.

Johnston: You did get one thing right though, I am a rat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_zodiac

[gejohnston]

37. I proved that she is a

PR executive and was once head of the PR department for Monsanto as well as Wellpoint. The NYC FOIA download, since Bloomberg used NYC government servers for MAIG, the emails showed that not only were his staff and the K Street lobbyist that was hired to be MAIG director were giddy about the Sandy Hook slaughter because it would push their agenda. The emails also indicated she was hired to create a "MADD of guns". That is proven. I stand by what I said.
Now, prove that she is a Democrat and why it should matter? So was Fred Phelps and Leland "opposing shark finning is racist, oh yeah, I hate your target pistol but I'll smuggle machine guns" Yee.

[jimmy the one]

40. 3rd request to j man

johnston's typical tapdance referring to Shannon watts: I proved that she is a PR executive and was once head of the PR department for Monsanto as well as Wellpoint.

You only proved you're a genius for the obvious by that, but you still haven't 'pointed out the truth' (accd'g to Johnston) by providing a link to the crap you posted here:

Johnston's crap: Actually, the number of DGUs are closer to 800k. Watts tweeted, with no evidence, that it never happens.

Now either post a reputable source link regarding her alleged 'tweet' or apologize & shut your lying double talking mouth about Shannon watts - fine democrat spokeswoman for Moms demand action for gun sense.
Post a valid link or retract your slander, creep.
And pls go ahead & report this, my money says it stays up & you get disallowed from alerting for awhile.

[friendly_iconoclast]

42. It was a video, not a tweet- but she still said it *and you know it, as you replied to it*:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=167409

Better yet, there's actual video available of Watts spouting this bullshit

https://iqmediacorp.com/ClipPlayer/?ClipID=246ebdf1-b8b0-417e-be98-d04b9b331602

The relevant bit is from 7:00 to 7:52 in the video
The transcript, for those that can't see the video:

(Note: This is the site's formatting, not mine)

>> I THINK IT IS OFTEN EASY
ESPECIALLY FOR PEOPLE IN THIS
SEAT AND IN MEDIA TO EASILY KIND
OF DISMISS WHAT TOV JUST SAID
BUT I WANT TO CHALLENGE YOU ON
SOMETHING, SHANNON...

...IS THERE AN EXAMPLE IN WHICH
MAYBE SCHOOL SHOOTINGS OR MALL
SHOOTINGS OR THESE PUBLIC
FACILITIES WHERE THAT HAS BEEN
WRONG, WHERE THIS BAD GUY WITH A
GUN HAS BEEN STOPPED IN ANY
OTHER WAY BY SOMETHING OTHER
THAN OR A PERSON OTHER THAN A
LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WITH A
GUN OR HIM KILLING HIMSELF?
>> IT'S NEVER HAPPENED.
DATA SHOWS IT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. Also, Shannon Watts is demonstrated liar and a poor excuse for a Democrat...

...shouting, handwaving, and specious claims of moral superiority notwithstanding.

[DonP]

44. Big fan of GMO foods at Monsanto too.

In fact a big fan of whatever she's paid to be a big fan of.

[jimmy the one]

48. OK, now PROVE IT

icon cites interviewer: >> I WANT TO CHALLENGE YOU ON SOMETHING, SHANNON... IS THERE AN EXAMPLE IN WHICH MAYBE SCHOOL SHOOTINGS OR MALL SHOOTINGS OR THESE PUBLIC FACILITIES WHERE THAT HAS BEEN WRONG, WHERE THIS BAD GUY WITH A GUN HAS BEEN STOPPED IN ANY OTHER WAY BY SOMETHING OTHER THAN OR A PERSON OTHER THAN A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WITH A GUN OR HIM KILLING HIMSELF?

Shannon Watts reply to interviewer: >> IT'S NEVER HAPPENED. DATA SHOWS IT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

I'm not believing this. Icon treads where even fools have stopped going.
You didn't have to cite any link actually, icon, or video feed, I've been citing 'you' and your 'all caps' post for several months now. You should have kept up with the class and you'd still have both feet on the ground rather than them being mouth implants.

OK icon, I'll cut to the chase. You claim it now PROVE IT. Post an example where an in progress 'bad guy with a gun' - aka school or church or public facility mass shooter - was stopped by an armed civilian using his/her personal firearm, whether concealed or quickly obtained. To the date of Shannon's interview of course, tho I suspect it still pertains to the present day.

Back up your puffery with facts, not tweets.

[friendly_iconoclast]

50. Glad you asked, here's several:

Pearl High School:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20123633,00.html

The school's assistant principal, Joel Myrick, retrieved a .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol from his truck and, spotting Woodham attempting to flee the parking lot after the shooting, shouted for him to stop. After Woodham's mother's car got stuck in the grass, Myrick ordered him out of the car at gunpoint and detained Woodham until police arrived at the scene.

Clackamas Town Center:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2037285

Man With Concealed Weapon at Clackamas Town Center

Portland, Oregon
by Mike Benner, KGW Staff

Posted on December 17, 2012 at 5:18 AM

Updated Monday, Dec 17 at 11:52 AM

PORTLAND -- Nick Meli is emotionally drained. The 22-year-old was at Clackamas Town Center with a friend and her baby when a masked man opened fire.

"I heard three shots and turned and looked at Casey and said, 'are you serious?,'" he said.

The friend and baby hit the floor. Meli, who has a concealed carry permit, positioned himself behind a pillar.

"He was working on his rifle," said Meli. "He kept pulling the charging handle and hitting the side."

The break in gunfire allowed Meli to pull out his own gun, but he never took his eyes off the shooter.

"As I was going down to pull, I saw someone in the back of the Charlotte move, and I knew if I fired and missed, I could hit them," he said.

Meli took cover inside a nearby store. He never pulled the trigger. He stands by that decision.

"I'm not beating myself up cause I didn't shoot him," said Meli. "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself."

The gunman was dead, but not before taking two innocent lives with him and taking the innocence of everyone else.

"I don't ever want to see anyone that way ever," said Meli. "It just bothers me."

Parker Middle School dance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Middle_School_dance_shooting

The shooting began on an outdoor patio, about 20 minutes before the dance was scheduled to end, around 9:40. He shot John Gillette after he asked Wurst to come inside. Before running out of ammunition, Wurst proceeded to enter Nick's Place, where the dance had been held, and subsequently fired and wounded Edrye Boraten, a teacher and two students, Jacob Tury and Justin Fletcher.[1] The shooting ended when the owner of Nick's Place, James Strand, intervened and confronted Wurst with his shotgun, ordering him to drop his weapon and later holding him at bay for eleven minutes. Strand later got Wurst on the ground and searched him for weapons, finding a dinner fork in his sock.

Freewill Baptist Church:

http://www.goupstate.com/article/20120325/ARTICLES/120329781/1112

About 11:20 a.m., Jesse Gates returned to the church. The Rev. Guyton's grandson, Aaron Guyton, 26, was in the recreation building separate from the church and saw Gates get a shotgun from the trunk of his car.

“At that point, I knew I had to do something,” Aaron Guyton said. “I wanted to try to contain him outside.”

Aaron Guyton went into the main building and locked the doors.

Henry Guyton said he was in the pulpit, preaching about how Jesus spoke the word of God and healed the sick, when Gates kicked open the side door of the sanctuary and entered with the shotgun, pointing it at the pastor and congregation.

Church members, including Aaron Guyton, a concealed weapons permit holder, acted quickly.

Aaron Guyton held Gates at gunpoint, as church members Jesse Smith and Leland Powers held him on the floor and waited for deputies to arrive.

Austin construction site:

http://kxan.com/2014/04/30/2-hurt-in-shooting-near-downtown/

AUSTIN (KXAN) – Two people were hurt in a shootout just before noon at a West Campus area construction site near the intersection of Rio Grande Street and Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard.

Austin police are not yet releasing the names of the two men involved but said the suspect was recently fired from the construction site and returned with a gun. He opened fire on the site’s foreman, who drew his own gun and returned fire — hitting the suspect.

Police say the foreman has a Concealed Handgun License and was allowed to have the gun with him at work. Police say the suspect had recently returned to the site and had been threatening the foreman, so a police report was filed.

Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital:

http://www.delcotimes.com/general-news/20140808/mercy-fitzgerald-shooting-suspect-out-of-hospital-placed-in-prison

Richard S. Plotts, 49, of Upper Darby, was released from the Hospital of University of Pennsylvania Thursday and is now incarcerated at the George W. Hill Correctional Facility. Plotts was taken to the hospital after he allegedly shot and killed Theresa Hunt, his caseworker, and wounded Dr. Lee Silverman. The doctor was able to return fire against Plotts, critically wounding him.

Plotts is facing charges of first- and third-degree murder, criminal homicide, possessing an instrument of crime, illegal possession of a firearm, carrying a firearm without a license and reckless endangerment as a result of the July 24 shooting. Plotts allegedly arrived about an hour early for a scheduled appointment at the Sister Marie Lenahan Wellness Center on Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital’s Yeadon campus that afternoon. Hunt brought him to Silverman’s office, where Delaware County District Attorney Jack Whelan said that Plotts became agitated. Whelan said that Plotts was allegedly upset about the ban on possessing guns on hospital property.

Whelan said that Plotts shot Hunt in the head, killing her, before turning the gun toward Silverman. Silverman was struck in the thumb and suffered a graze wound to the head before he managed to shoot Plotts three times with a gun he kept in his desk drawer. Two other hospital employees subdued Plotts after he was shot, and investigators say that Plotts had more than 30 additional rounds of ammunition and was prepared to kill more people.

Appeals to authority have led you wrong yet again...

[jimmy the one]

52. Massive Iconic Fail

.. and I knew if I fired and missed, I could hit them {innocent bystanders}," he said. Meli took cover inside a nearby store. He never pulled the trigger.. "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself." .. with a stolen AR-15.. killing two people and seriously wounding a third.. Roberts entered a stairwell and committed suicide

conjecture, not a mass shooting either.

Wurst proceeded to enter Nick's Place, where the dance had been held, and subsequently fired and wounded Edrye Boraten, a teacher and two students .. shooting ended when the owner of Nick's Place, James Strand, intervened and confronted Wurst with his shotgun

'Nick's Place' evidently a dance hall is not a church, nor a school, nor a public bldg., the owner is certainly entitled to have a shotgun in his own place. This type dgu happens on occasion.

AUSTIN (KXAN) – Two people were hurt in a shootout just before noon at a West Campus area construction site near the intersection of Rio Grande Street and – opened fire on the site’s foreman, who drew his own gun and returned fire — hitting the suspect.

Not a mass shooting. Incidents like this occur now & then, but is not what Shannon watts was talking about. Icon lives up to his shortened name.

asst principal, Joel Myrick, retrieved a .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol from his truck and, spotting Woodham attempting to flee the parking lot after the shooting, shouted for him to stop. After Woodham's mother's car got stuck in the grass, Myrick ordered him out of the car at gunpoint and detained Woodham until police arrived at the scene

Woodham had already exited the school and the shooting had ended.

Plotts shot Hunt in the head, killing her, before turning the gun toward Silverman {who} managed to shoot Plotts 3 times with a gun he kept in his desk drawer. Two other hospital employees subdued Plotts after he was shot, and investigators say that Plotts had more than 30 additional rounds of ammunition and was prepared to kill more people.

Close but conjecture, not be a mass shooting per se.
Please play again icon.

[friendly_iconoclast]

54. I believe my examples met your criteria. Whether *you* agree or disagree is not my concern n/t

[gejohnston]

45. I don't report and alert

I think such things are, well, kind of Jr. High. Besides, as I think Twain put it "....and remove all doubt." But she blocked me from her twitter feed.
Two flags on the field

[jimmy the one]

49. 4th request

johnston's typical tapdance referring to Shannon watts: I don't report and alert .. I think such things are, well, kind of Jr. High

Why should jr high mentality stop you?, what's Junior High are your idiotic umpires & referee pictures, readily transparent dodges to avoid providing an answer to the pickle you've created for yourself. Which makes you demonstrably a BIG FAT LIAR (again) for attributing your own twisted lying words to the spokeswoman for Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense Shannon Watts, a fine decent democrat whom you smear with LIES.

Johnston's crap: Actually, the number of DGUs are closer to 800k. Watts tweeted, with no evidence, that it never happens.

Now either post a reputable source link regarding her alleged 'tweet' or apologize & shut your mouth about Shannon watts - fine democrat spokeswoman for Moms demand action for gun sense. She did not say that, and I doubt she tweeted it.
Post a valid link or retract your slander.
And pls go ahead & report this, my money says it stays up & you get disallowed from alerting for awhile.

[friendly_iconoclast]

51. Shannon Watts is a proven liar and a piss-poor excuse for a Democrat

[Decoy of Fenris]

55. 10:04 in the video. You're wrong.

https://iqmediacorp.com/ClipPlayer/?ClipID=246ebdf1-b8b0-417e-be98-d04b9b331602

(defensive gun use) "Has never happened." She also follows with several equally false statements (involving CWC, NRA policies) that are easily proven false. If you need a "Valid link", I can provide it; other RKBAers won't waste time on you, but I've got nothing but time to burn. Feel like taking your chances?


She's an ignoramus at best and an outright liar at worst. Now that you've been proven wrong, would you kindly retract your slander to the poster you've called a "BIG FAT LIAR", since he is no such thing?

[jimmy the one]

59. Another one jumps in the briar patch

decoy: 10:04 in the video. You're wrong. https://iqmediacorp.com/ClipPlayer/?ClipID=246ebdf1-b8b0-417e-be98-d04b9b331602

Duh, 10:04 is the end, you're looking at the total minutes & thinking it's the spot; start about minute 7:00 for a lead in (to ~8:00) & you've fallen into the same stupid trap that Johnston & icon & beevul fell into, jeez & after all the forewarning you had.

decoy: defensive gun use) "Has never happened."

Nope, what she said 'has never happened' was that a church, school, or public facility mass shooting has never been thwarted by someone other than a (trained & experienced) police officer or by the shooter suicide.

decoy: She also follows with several equally false statements (involving CWC, NRA policies) that are easily proven false. If you need a "Valid link", I can provide it; other RKBAers won't waste time on you, but I've got nothing but time to burn. Feel like taking your chances?

Yeah post some of these lies you claim she says, so far the lies have come from the pro gun smearers on here. Your tailings are wrong too, some clowns here always need have the last word, makes them feel big & superior, so I guess by you they're 'wasting time on me'.

decoy: She's an ignoramus at best and an outright liar at worst. Now that you've been proven wrong, would you kindly retract your slander to the poster you've called a "BIG FAT LIAR", since he is no such thing?

Except I haven't been proven wrong, you have. So would you swallow your own medicine & retract your slander about me & Shannon watts? If not, go soak your silly head.

[Decoy of Fenris]

62. You, and Shannon Watts, are still wrong, and she's still a liar.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/crime-law/rockdale-sheriff-calls-store-patron-hero-for-firin/nmSbG/

Still wrong...

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/detectives-double-fatal-nye-party-shooting-was-sel/njfKj/

Getting even more wrong...

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58238365-78/burr-emergency-attorney-report.html.csp

I'm beginning to detect a pattern....

http://kxan.com/2014/04/30/2-hurt-in-shooting-near-downtown/

Okay. Yeah. She's a liar on that front.



Other lies from a lying liar:

"52 US women shot and killed by #DV abusers each month. THIS IS A WOMEN'S ISSUE." -Oct 23 tweet
https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

"Nine American women shot and killed by their husbands and intimate partners every single week,"
http://momsdemandaction.org/domestic-gun-violence/



"Like 90% of country, #DemDebate candidates support closing background check loophole!"- Oct 23 tweet (same link)

"and 80 percent support closing what is known as the 'gun show loophole,'" -The same study Shannon Watts cited for the 90% number.
http://www.uml.edu/News/press-releases/2014/gun-control-poll-2014.aspx


"They don't even allow guns in the headquarters of the NRA" (Around 8:22)
https://iqmediacorp.com/ClipPlayer/?ClipID=246ebdf1-b8b0-417e-be98-d04b9b331602

While I don't have a link for this directly, I took the time to call the NRA HQ myself via their Press number. After getting a callback, I explained that I was a CCW holder who wished to do an interview for a podcast. I asked if I would be allowed to carry my weapon while I was on the premises. The short answer is yes; The long answer is yes, so long as I can provide my CCW permit on site.


"Open carry legal in #Ohio, but these Ohioans shot, killed for open carrying toys #TamirRice " -Oct 10
https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

"The law (Ohio Revised Code [O.R.C.] 2923.12, et seq.) allows persons 21 and older to receive a concealed handgun license provided that they receive a minimum of 12 hours of handgun training (10 hours of classroom instruction and 2 hours of range time) from a certified instructor, demonstrate competency with a handgun through written and shooting tests, pass a criminal background check, and meet certain residency requirements [non-residents who work in Ohio will be allowed to obtain licenses as of March 23, 2015]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Ohio


"For the first time in any US presidential election, candidates committing to fight for #gunsense" -Oct 10
https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

"I will also work to reinstate the assault weapons ban." -Senator Clinton
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/DemocraticDebate/story?id=4670271&page=1



I can keep going literally all day. Shannon Watts is a lying, deceitful, self-masturbatory grandstander on par with Wayne Lapierre, and just about as useless. I wouldn't trust her to lead a PTA meeting, let alone an organization with as much potential as Moms Demand. You can bow to your golden calf as often as you want; she's still a liar.

[jimmy the one]

64. not applicable

You evidently post examples of dgus (gotta go, off for the day), which as far as I've seen do not qualify as mass shootings at schools, churches, or public facilities.
Can't you get it thru your head that Shannon was not referring to dgus, but to mass shootings at the above locations?
You post below a dgu, nobody disputes dgus occur now & then, but are paltry in comparison with gun violence:

this is not a mass shooting, & occurred at a campus construction site: AUSTIN (KXAN) – Two people were hurt in a shootout just before noon at a West Campus area construction site near the intersection of Rio Grande Street and – opened fire on the site’s foreman, who drew his own gun and returned fire — hitting the suspect.

Not a mass shooting. Incidents like this occur now & then, but is not what Shannon watts was talking about.

[Decoy of Fenris]

65. You're asking for proof of a logical fallacy.

If a CCW stops a shooter from executing a mass shooting, by definition, it's not a mass shooting. Likewise, if a shooting becomes a mass shooting by casualty count, then even if the CCW bearer -does- stop the shooter, the casualty count still qualifies the shooting (even if stopped) as a mass shooting.


Therefore, it is a logical impossibility to stop a "mass shooting", since if it qualifies as a mass shooting, it was not, by definition, "stopped" by the CCWer.

You are quite literally asking for the impossible.


What I linked were, to the best of my knowledge, situations that, in honest examinations, -would have- turned into mass shootings if the shooter was left unmolested by CCW holders. In the instance you cited, the construction foreman stopped a threat that obviously had the intent of becoming a mass shooter. The shooter in that instance showed up, started firing indiscriminately (mass shooter in progress if left unmolested) but was shot before he could continue executing his plan.

If we're ever going to discuss violence civilly and with a reasonable expectation of progress, we need to be able to admit when we're wrong, JTO. That applies to both sides equally, and since you definitely know your shit, a measure of intellectual honesty on your part would be a great thing. With people like me on the RKBA side and people like you on the GCRA side, if we can ever put aside the childish sniping, we can actually come up with some astonishingly effective ideas, mate. I'd urge you to actually consider the notion of a "ceasefire" on the partisan defense and work with us.

Anyways, see you when you get online next.

[jimmy the one]

67. prevented is not stopped

decoy: You're asking for proof of a logical fallacy... it is a logical impossibility to stop a "mass shooting", since if it qualifies as a mass shooting, it was not, by definition, "stopped" by the CCWer.

Huh? double double talk talk your forte'? Pathetically weak argument you make, since any mass shooting could indeed be 'stopped' by an armed citizen or cops by stopping the shooter from shooting anymore, killing or incapacitating him in some manner. DUH. Don't conflate 'stopped' with 'prevented' anymore please.

“Is there an example in school shootings or a mall shooting or these public facilities, where that has been wrong? Where a bad guy with a gun has been stopped in any other way or by a person other than a law enforcement officer with a gun or by killing himself?” asked Blackwell.

It's clear enough to those of us more informed on the issue than the fake of fenris & friends, what blackwell was asking Shannon Watts, and she interpreted the question as pertaining to mass shootings at churches, schools, or public facilities, implied by Blackwell.

decoy: What I linked were, to the best of my knowledge, situations that, in honest examinations, -would have- turned into mass shootings if the shooter was left unmolested by CCW holders.

Conjecture does not a mass shooting make. You cannot apply your biased hypotheticals to smear someone else citing stats on what actually transpired. Logic fallacy & all that. And you again are describing 'preventing' a mass shooting, not stopping one in progress.

decoy: In the instance you cited, the construction foreman stopped a threat that obviously had the intent of becoming a mass shooter.

You surely mean he prevented the possibility of a mass shooting. And the gunman evidently gave forewarning, mass shooters usually rely on surprise: Austin police .. said the suspect was recently fired from the construction site and returned with a gun. He opened fire on the site’s foreman, who drew his own gun and returned fire — hitting the suspect. Police say the suspect had recently returned to the site and had been threatening the foreman..

decoy: If we're ever going to discuss violence civilly and with a reasonable expectation of progress, we need to be able to admit when we're wrong, JTO.

I admit error when due, but not to some charlatan using hypotheticals to make it seem so, so go soak your head.

[friendly_iconoclast]

61. Don't take the shouting and handwaving too much to heart- we're dealing with a version of these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies#Modern_Flat_Earth_Societies

[Decoy of Fenris]

63. See, I don't think Jimmy's really a flat earther.

I think he's been genuinely taken in by the left-wing's version of Wayne Lapierre, believing in her grandstanding and proselytizing and propaganda. He may genuinely mean well but has been grossly misinformed by masters of deception. Remember, Watts was a PR personality before this whole "Moms" thing; Deception, spin and deceit are by definition what she does/did for a living.

I'm not one to fault someone for falling for propaganda; many are easily taken in by such things. It's our job and our privilege to educate them, and publicly, so others can observe the fault in the argument being made.

[jimmy the one]

68. a fake faking it

decoy: I'm beginning to detect a pattern.... http://kxan.com/2014/04/30/2-hurt-in-shooting-near-downtown/ Okay. Yeah. She's a liar on that front.

No she isn't a liar, you are; 'Decoy's Thesaurus' does not apply here; possibly preventing a mass shooting is different from actually stopping one in progress.

decoy cites SW: Other lies from a lying liar: "52 US women shot and killed by #DV abusers each month. THIS IS A WOMEN'S ISSUE." -Oct 23 tweet https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
decoy: "Nine American women shot and killed by their husbands and intimate partners every single week," http://momsdemandaction.org/domestic-gun-violence/

I think decoy is trying to say that the above 2 Shannon quotes are contradictory, yes or no? And thus the discrepancy between 52 women shot & ~38 women shot makes her a liar, yes or no?
Question for decoy: can a domestic violence abuser be someone other than a husband or intimate partner? like a father or son? yes or no? 'Domestic violence is now more broadly defined,.. "all acts of physical, sexual, psychological or economic violence" that may be committed by a person who is a family member or a person that has been an intimate partner or spouse, irrespective of whether they lived together'. wiki, dom viol;
PS: the 'oct 23 tweet' on your link, I did not find it. Could the two alleged quotes be from different dates & time periods?

decoy cites: "Like 90% of country, #DemDebate candidates support closing background check loophole!"- Oct 23 tweet
"and 80 percent support closing what is known as the 'gun show loophole,'" -The same study Shannon Watts cited for the 90% number.
http://www.uml.edu/News/press-releases/2014/gun-control-poll-2014.aspx

You're kidding. You claim this makes Shannon watts a liar? pathetic; for using the valid range of 80% to 90% of support for bg checks? Demdebate (dunno offhand what it is) assumedly comprised of mainly democrats? who moreso support bg checks than repubs.

decoy cites: "They don't even allow guns in the headquarters of the NRA" (Around 8:22)
https://iqmediacorp.com/ClipPlayer/?ClipID=246ebdf1-b8b0-417e-be98-d04b9b331602

This might be a misconception, if a valid tweet, but hardly a substantive lie. You fenris have substantively lied more on your recent posts than your alleged posting re Shannon watts.

decoy's alleged lie by Shannon: "Open carry legal in #Ohio, but these Ohioans shot, killed for open carrying toys #TamirRice " -Oct 10 https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

open carry dot org: Ohio is a traditional open carry state. Recently, the Ohio legislature passed HB-12 over Governor Taft's veto, thus preempting all local open carry bans even in Ohio's “home rule” localities

Please restate any point you were trying to make, fake, since this one isn't going over so well.

"For the first time in any US presidential election, candidates committing to fight for #gunsense" -Oct 10 https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
"I will also work to reinstate the assault weapons ban." -Senator Clinton
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/DemocraticDebate/story?id=4670271&page=1

Dunno what you think you proved with the above two tweets or links, other than you're batty.

[jimmy the one]

69. shannon tweet

fenris: ..Watts was a PR personality before this whole "Moms" thing; Deception, spin and deceit are by definition what she does/did for a living.

What is your opinion of this?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=156114

[gejohnston]

56. sure

[beevul]

33. Pot, stop calling the kettle black.

Last edited Sat Oct 10, 2015, 09:29 PM - Edit history (1)

your often inept linking style

Many of your posts resemble deliberately blurred "find the hidden image" brain teasers.


As such you really haven't a leg to stand on when it comes to things like this.

[kudzu22]

5. It's the same reason

that you hear about every plane that crashes, but never hear of the ones that almost crashed. If nobody's dead, it's not news-worthy.

[Eleanors38]

8. Respectfully, carrying a weapon is for self-defense, not strategic law enforcement...

If a weapon-carrier is three buildings down, he/she won't do much good.

If the weapon-carrier is confronted by a murderer, he/she might do some good to preserve his/her life.

[beevul]

14. "What we never get..."

What we never get are reports of some active shooter somewhere, another person has a gun, and BANG! The original shooter is now dead.

Yes we do:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings

[jimmy the one]

18. former cop, working as security guard

Sheila: "..What we never get are reports of some active shooter somewhere, another person has a gun, and BANG! The original shooter is now dead.

beevul, posting new life shooting: Yes we do:

Still into your zeal to deceive, beevul? a half truth leaving out particular facts?
Beevul misleads that the killer-gunman was shot by a 'largo' citizen with a gun, to disprove what Sheila was saying. But Beevul leaves out critical info:

wiki: ..after the 11:00 a.m. service had ended at New Life Church, Murray opened fire in the church parking lot, shooting the Works family and Judy Purcell. Murray then entered the building's main foyer where he shot Larry Bourbonnais, hitting him in the forearm.
At this point, church member Jeanne Assam, a former Minneapolis police officer, opened fire on Murray with her personally owned concealed weapon. Police say that after suffering multiple hits from Assam's gun, Murray fatally shot himself.
New Life: Jeanne Assam (Former police officer/church member providing security)

A former police officer working as a church security guard is not what is meant by 'intervention by a citizen with a ccw permit carrying concealed'.

[beevul]

20. I think youre having some troubles.

A former police officer working as a church security guard is not what is meant by 'intervention by a citizen with a ccw permit carrying concealed'.

The poster I was responding to made no such CCW qualification, and you james, are not qualified to edit it in for them, but rest assured, everyone will give you credit for trying as your labor is obvious.

If that poster wishes she can change it, but then, that would be well after the fact, wouldn't it.

It would be an admission that "yes, we do get instances where "ome active shooter somewhere, another person has a gun, and BANG! The original shooter is now dead", and terminology had to be changed to discount it.

Again, due credit will be given.

[jimmy the one]

21. go away

beevul: The poster I was responding to made no such CCW qualification, and you james, are not qualified to edit it in for them, but rest assured, everyone will give you credit for trying as your labor is obvious.

I didn't edit anything. I read her post for what it was, and I doubt she intended for police or security to be included in her 'person' list, otherwise she would've written cops.

Sheila: What we never get are reports of some active shooter somewhere, another person has a gun, and BANG! The original shooter is now dead.

[beevul]

22. Volunteer security... Wouldn't want you to miss that detail.

I read her post for what it was, and I doubt she intended for police or security to be included in her 'person' list, otherwise she would've written cops.

The lady that stopped that shooter was not police. She was former police. One either is, or is not employed by a police department.

She was not.

As to her status as security, she volunteered, with a personally owned handgun. Wouldn't want you to miss that little detail.


And, you added the qualification of CCW which the poster of the sentence in question did not.

Shame shame. Crawfishing wont get you anywhere I'm afraid.


On edit:

go away

I was here nearly ten years before you came around under the impression nobody had ever seen your schtick before, thinking that you have an opinion of value.

I cut my teeth arguing with the likes of iverglas and mrbenchley, and I'm not going anywhere, simply because jimmy the one doesn't like to be beat silly in an argument..

[jimmy the one]

28. poor you

beevul: It would be an admission that "yes, we do get instances where "ome active shooter somewhere, another person has a gun, and BANG! The original shooter is now dead", and terminology had to be changed to discount it.

It isn't sheila's terminology that is the disgrace, it's beevul's making it seem an average gun owner stopped the new life shooting.

beevul: The lady that stopped that shooter was not police. She was former police. One either is, or is not employed by a police department. She was not.

Duh, AFTER one has been employed by a police dept, one has generally become experienced in both gun handling & how to properly handle criminal incidents.

beevul: As to her status as security, she volunteered, with a personally owned handgun.

Which means that as security guard (& former cop) she was prepared & at the ready to handle criminal activity, since that was her job. She had been previously trained as a cop & was on watch, jeez, does it get hot in your cookoo clock?

beevul: And, you added the qualification of CCW which the poster of the sentence in question did not.

No I did not apply ccw to Sheila's remark. To Sheila's remark I wrote: Beevul misleads that the killer-gunman was shot by a 'largo' citizen with a gun, to disprove what Sheila was saying.

I wrote, adding 'ccw' in reply to the security guard assam shooting the church shooter, on the premise a church member having a concealed pistol could've done it similarly: A former police officer working as a church security guard is not what is meant by 'intervention by a citizen with a ccw permit carrying concealed'.

Just realized this too, since you harp on technicality:
Sheila: What we never get are reports of some active shooter somewhere, another person has a gun, and BANG! The original shooter is now dead.
beevul wrote: Yes we do: (new life church shooting)

Technically you're wrong, since assam didn't kill the shooter (only wounded), he shot himself.. after suffering multiple hits from Assam's gun, Murray fatally shot himself
Poor you.

[beevul]

32. Oh, I'm sorry,

Last edited Sat Oct 10, 2015, 01:07 PM - Edit history (1)

It isn't sheila's terminology that is the disgrace, it's beevul's making it seem an average gun owner stopped the new life shooting.

I'm sorry james. The poster I originally replied to set the criteria. The new life church shooting fits the criteria set by that poster.

Sorry it enrages you.

No I did not apply ccw to Sheila's remark. To Sheila's remark I wrote: Beevul misleads that the killer-gunman was shot by a 'largo' citizen with a gun, to disprove what Sheila was saying.

Did you really think I would just let that bald faced lie go without shining a spotlight on it?

Behold:

A former police officer working as a church security guard is not what is meant by 'intervention by a citizen with a ccw permit carrying concealed'. jimmytheone

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172176951#post18

Eat your Wheaties, champ.

[jimmy the one]

38. snopes fact check on assam

beevul: Did you really think I would just let that bald faced lie go without shining a spotlight on it? Behold:

Readers, behold a charlatan above, taking my sentence out of context. If anyone interested, reread my post 28 to see thru beevul's faulty argument.
As to beevul's insidious wiggling, snopes rates this 'partly' true, which also means partly not true, and it doesn't bode well for poor beevul, not well at all. Snopes reveals info beevul was either unaware of or didn't want to post. I was unaware of some of this as well, or I certainly would've posted it sooner. Assam claims to have been a police officer at the time of her shooting, and, she had been alerted by the previous attack at arvada. Sure, she was an armed member of the congregation, a trained cop acting as a security guard:

SNOPES: FACT CHECK - PARTLY TRUE: ... Was a Colorado church shooting stopped by an armed member of the congregation?
According to the meme, a woman named Jeanne Assam was in attendance during a similar armed attack on a church but was able to shoot and wound the assailant, halting the attack.
The attack ultimately stopped by Assam occurred in two phases in Colorado on 9 Dec 2007, starting at the Youth with a Mission (YWAM) training center in Arvada. At that location, shooter Matthew Murray killed two churchgoers and wounded two more before fleeing to the New Life Church in Colorado Springs.
At the second location, Murray killed two more victims and wounded three others before Jeanne Assam, who was present at the church service taking place there, fired at Murray and struck him several times, ending his assault.

Jeanne Assam wasn’t quite a random churchgoer who just happened to show up at the service fortuitously carrying a weapon that day, however: she was a former police officer and volunteer church security guard who was aware of the earlier attack at the Youth with a Mission training center, had suggested that the New Life Church add extra security, and was armed as part of the church’s security team that day for that very reason:
Assam worked as a police officer in downtown Minneapolis during the 1990s and is licensed to carry a weapon. She attends one of the morning services and then volunteers as a guard during another service.

[New Life’s Senior Pastor Brady] Boyd said Assam was the one who suggested the church beef up its security Sunday following the Arvada shooting, which it did. The pastor credited the security plan and the extra security for preventing further bloodshed.
Boyd said there are 15 to 20 security people at the church. All are volunteers but the only ones armed are those who are licensed to carry weapons.
A number of news accounts of the incident described Assam as a “former” police officer and reported that Matthew Murray’s fatal wound was self-inflicted. However, Jeanne Assam maintained to us that she was still a member of the police force at the time of the church shooting and that was the one who killed Murray:

This message is regarding a post about me. It has a picture of me and words to the effect that I was just some random woman at New Life church when a gunman entered. The fact is that I am and was a police officer at the time of the shooting. I was part of the volunteer security team that day at the church.

Outside in the parking lot, Murray shot 5 more people, killing 2 and wounding 3 others before I engaged and killed him inside the church, shooting and striking him 10 times. I engaged and killed the gunman. I was 5 feet from him when I had to fire the last of 10 accurate rounds. He did not kill himself and I am the one who got his blood all over my clothes from arterial spray. Trust me, if he killed himself, I would have both seen and heard it. He didn’t.
Please post the TRUTH regarding my incident. That post floating around about me is completely FALSE.

While Assam was initially hailed as a hero for minimizing loss of life during the shooting at great personal risk, she later said she was asked to leave New Life Church because of her sexuality (although the church disputed the claim).
Last updated: 17 Sep 2015 http://m.snopes.com/jeanne-assam/#V5AylQuJdi7ad8cU.99

[jimmy the one]

39. more truth about jeanne assam

Jeanne Assam was not an average citizen exercising her Second Amendment rights.
Prior to attending the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, she had gone to police academy and served as a police officer in Minneapolis. As a consequence of her training, she knew how to safely use a firearm. Although she was no longer working as a cop at the time of the attack, Assam was still licensed to carry a firearm, and she had been specially appointed by the New Life Church as an armed security guard.
Assam and her fellow guards were already on high alert the day of the shooting because they had heard about the attack at YWAM earlier that morning.
In other words, Assam was not just a gun carrier; she was the ideal combination of professional experience, forewarned preparation, and bravery.

But if Jeanne Assam’s story proves anything, it’s that guns are most effective in the hands of highly-trained, morally-upright* individuals who have been appointed to the task of public safety. I doubt that many of the people who share this meme have one-tenth the training that Assam has in the safe use of firearms, nor that, placed in a similar situation, they would become the saviors they fantasize about being.
https://stupidbadmemes.wordpress.com/tag/jeanne-assam/

[beevul]

41. I'm still sorry.

I'm (still) sorry james. The poster I originally replied to set the criteria. The new life church shooting fits the criteria set by that poster.

Sorry it enrages you.

[jimmy the one]

53. trip down memory lane for bull weasels

beevul: I'm (still) sorry james. The poster I originally replied to set the criteria. The new life church shooting fits the criteria set by that poster.

You're sorry alright. More dodge ball from beevul, can't man up & face the fact he's trapped. Let's take a trip down memory lane, & review what beevul has said on this very subject back in june 2015, added emphasis:

jun 3, 2015, beevul #30: Hey jimmy, guess what a volunteer security guard who is a former cop is. A CIVILIAN. http://betterment.democraticunderground.com/1172167494#post10

I wrote: a former cop who was the security guard, which differentiates her {assam} immensely from the regular crop of civilian gun owners carrying a ccw or gun."
beevul #32 replied: Make your case counselor. You asserted it, now prove it. not just in the general sense, but HER {Jeanne assam}. You said it differentiates HER> Prove it.

OK, here - SNOPES FACT CHECK: Jeanne Assam wasn’t quite a random churchgoer who just happened to show up at the service fortuitously carrying a weapon that day, however: she was a former police officer and volunteer church security guard who was aware of the earlier attack at the Youth with a Mission training center, had suggested that the New Life Church add extra security, and was armed as part of the church’s security team that day for that very reason.
Assam worked as a police officer in downtown Minneapolis during the 1990s and is licensed to carry a weapon. She attends one of the morning services and then volunteers as a guard during another service. Assam was the one who suggested the church beef up its security Sunday following the Arvada shooting, which it did. The pastor credited the security plan and the extra security for preventing further bloodshed.
Jeanne Assam maintained to us that she was still a member of the police force at the time of the church shooting and that was the one who killed Murray: "This message is regarding a post about me. It has a picture of me and words to the effect that I was just some random woman at New Life church when a gunman entered. The fact is that I am and was a police officer at the time of the shooting. I was part of the volunteer security team that day at the church."

Rebuttal by any bull weasels?

[beevul]

57. There isn't much there to rebut.

You're leaning now, on evidence that she considered herself a police officer at the time even though she wasn't?

That's pretty fuckin thin even for you, james.

[friendly_iconoclast]

58. I believe one of gejohnston's graphics best describes the situation:

[jimmy the one]

60. wrong again batman beevul

beevul: There isn't much there to rebut.

Translation: Egads, better stop digging the beevul hole & blow smoke.
There was plenty for you to rebut, you just couldn't.

beevul: You're leaning now, on evidence that she considered herself a police officer at the time even though she wasn't? That's pretty fuckin thin even for you, james.

Except I'm not, I posted the snopes report which said that; in fact I was suspect since other reports have her as a former cop (which still makes her trained & experienced in gun & crime handling). I think she might be conflating security guard and police officer, not without reason imo.
snopes: Jeanne Assam maintained to us that she was still a member of the police force at the time of the church shooting and that was the one who killed Murray:

Jeanne Assam HERSELF debunks beevul's argument, by depicting herself not as a civilian with a gun at the church, but as a 'police officer' on the security team that day, forewarned about the potential shooting continuance:
Jeanne assam: "This message is regarding a post about me. It has a picture of me and words to the effect that I was just some random woman at New Life church when a gunman entered. The fact is that I am and was a police officer at the time of the shooting. I was part of the volunteer security team that day at the church."

Does Jeanne assam qualify as simply an armed civilian with a gun suddenly stopping a mass shooting?
SNOPES FACT CHECK: Jeanne Assam wasn’t quite a random churchgoer who just happened to show up at the service fortuitously carrying a weapon that day, however: she was a former police officer and volunteer church security guard who was aware of the earlier attack at YAM center, had suggested that the New Life Church add extra security, and was armed as part of the church’s security team that day for that very reason.
Assam worked as a police officer in downtown Minneapolis during the 1990s and is licensed to carry a weapon. Assam was the one who suggested the church beef up its security Sunday following the Arvada shooting, which it did.

[beevul]

66. Wrong about what?

I never claimed she was a random church goer

None of what you say changes this simple fact:

The new life church shooting fits the metrics set by the poster I originally responded to.

No amount of bafflegab, muddying the waters, or painful artfully posted walls of 'hard on the eyes' text by you is going to change that.

[jimmy the one]

70. wrong about a lot

beevul: Wrong about what?

Wrong that you thought she wasn't an experienced & trained former police officer serving on security detail:

I wrote: a former cop who was the security guard, which differentiates her {assam} immensely from the regular crop of civilian gun owners carrying a ccw or gun."
beevul #32 replied: Make your case counselor. You asserted it, now prove it. not just in the general sense, but HER {Jeanne assam}. You said it differentiates HER> Prove it.
http://betterment.democraticunderground.com/1172167494#post10

OK, here - SNOPES FACT CHECK: Jeanne Assam wasn’t quite a random churchgoer who just happened to show up at the service fortuitously carrying a weapon that day, however: she was a former police officer and volunteer church security guard who was aware of the earlier attack at the Youth with a Mission training center, had suggested that the New Life Church add extra security, and was armed as part of the church’s security team that day for that very reason.
Assam worked as a police officer in downtown Minneapolis during the 1990s and is licensed to carry a weapon. Assam was the one who suggested the church beef up its security Sunday following the Arvada shooting, which it did. The pastor credited the security plan and the extra security for preventing further bloodshed.

beevul: I never claimed she was a random church goer

Yes you did in the sense you mislead readers to believe she was a random ccw carrier:

zoeisright: In not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian with a gun.

beevul post 3: Demonstrably factually incorrect.
{beevul cites wiki}: At this point, Assam opened fire on Murray with her personally owned concealed weapon.
beevul: So..."not a single case", is incorrect, considering that there are two examples posted in this thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022004014

beevul post 10: There is no doubt what so ever that the lady with the ccw STOPPED the shooter there

[ileus]

11. Firearms don't have guided bullets....line of sight only.

You really need to be within 90 feet for 10 ring shots. I normally practice 15-25 yards with my CC pistol, though I always pop a few off at the 100 yard gong because that's music to my ears hearing that ring from a 3.5" 9mm barrel.


How many of the conceal carriers were in the same room as the shooter???

[Lizzie Poppet]

6. Most "gun free zone" policies have no force of law.

If it's not part of statute (like for courthouses, for example), a "no weapons" posting has no force of law in most states, including here in Oregon. You can be asked to leave (and refusing to do so constitutes trespass, which of course is a crime), but violating the policy isn't illegal.

[stone space]

9. That should be changed. No reason to coddle terrorists on university campuses.

Most "gun free zone" policies have no force of law.

[Duckhunter935]

10. back to you old self I see

calling CCW carriers that have passed federal and state background checks terrorists, gets kind of old. That would include quite a few DU members.

[Lurks Often]

13. As usual, I see you are still missing the target.

One would have thought your most recent time out would have given you time to work up some new material.

By the way, thank you for proving that gun control extremists lack credibility. That you consider gun owners as "terrorists" is a great example of why the gun control movement continues to lose in Congress, the state legislatures and in the courts.

[stone space]

15. This is a lie.

That you consider gun owners as "terrorists"

Please read what I actually said and stop making up lies about me.

Thank you.

[Lurks Often]

17. That is exactly what you meant

The post you responded to explained that people with a CCW were allowed to carry on campus despite the "gun free zone" and that the worst they would face would be trespassing charges.

Your response was "That should be changed. No reason to coddle terrorists on university campuses". That response tells me that you think people with CCW permits are terrorists. If that isn't what you meant you need to do a far better job of phrasing your comments.

It is absurd and stupid to think a person willing to murder multiple people and commit suicide is going to all of sudden going to stop what they have planned just because there is a law against having a gun in a "gun free zone".

[GGJohn]

47. Ya know stone,

constantly accusing others of lying while acting like the victim, and constantly posting lies yourself, kinda screws up your creds.

[sarisataka]

16. So do you believe

that if the campus was declared gun fee and supported by legal penalty for violating such, the terrorist (I call him murderer) would not have acted as he did?

[GGJohn]

46. You said, and I quote:

No reason to coddle terrorists on university campuses.

[Eleanors38]

7. So, a dozen students with guns.

[ileus]

12. Our hospital is the same way, we have those silly little signs on the doors

but some folks still carry (and rightly so) all security can do is ask them to exit. Since it's concealed that never happens.

[patsimp]

27. for the nra - the shooter killed himself so more arms would have had him bring more weapons